The meaning of 'acoustic'

Subject: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:35 AM

Well, we've all had to get used to going into what we thought were "folk clubs" and find we had to sit listening to songs written by librarians all night. I realise this is a losing battle, and we are not even allowed to discuss the meaning of "folk" any more.
    How about "acoustic": or indeed, "unplugged"? Am I the only grumpy old git who finds it a bit annoying, when walking into a pub with a notice up saying "acoustic night", to find someone erecting the speaker stand s?

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:43 AM

jOhn Connoly used to be a libarian.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:47 AM

Yes, and do you want to spend all day listening to Fiddlers Green, JOhn?
Has anybody written a song called, Turnham Green, incidentally?

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:50 AM

You seem to be descibing 'Open mic nights', were most styles are accepted and acoustic instruments are plugged-in. Very popular in Hull and never descibed as folk evenings.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Sooz
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:54 AM

Perhaps John Conolly's new song about grumpy old men is applicable here :-)

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Ernest
Date: 30 May 06 - 08:02 AM

Good point, jOhn!

Still greg has a point too. I wouldn`t mind hearing a good singer/songwriter when I go to a folk-club, pub etc. provided that he knows something about folk music(this is why we need te `cat!), that it shows in his music and that he can play a tune...

The problem these days seems to be that many singer/songwriters are more or less pop/rock-singers gone solo-acoustic. Consequently they just strum along to their songs while their lyrics are just as meaningless and boring as any pop-muzak you hear on the radio.

And yeah... acoustic... all those "unplugged" was a lie: it were amplified acoustic instruments. Pop/Rock musicians seem to depend on them, because they never learned anything else. And often it doesn`t even help understanding the music - in pubs it only causes the people to talk louder...

There are a lot of Grumpies like us, Greg.

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 May 06 - 08:14 AM

Hand pulled Boy: no, I was not describing "open mic nights". At such events, I would expect microphones, and I would expect that musicians casually dropping in would get a chance to play. And I would not be disappointed as that is exactly what happens. What I was objecting to is pub music being desribed as "acoustic" when it is in fact "amplified". I appreciate that words change their meaning: but it is confusing when words are used by some people in a sense completely opposite to their original meaning, as understood by ordinary right-thinking people, such as myself.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 May 06 - 08:28 AM

This must be a British Aisles thing. Over here, "acoustic" means an instrument that is not powered by electricity. Unless you're in a very small room, if there's a substantial number of people, you can't hear an acoustic instrument without amplification. If you're outside, forget hearing an acoustic instrument from more than ten feet away.

I'm not sure I understand this discussion at all, greg. Almost all acoustic instruments (and the voice is "acoustic" too, I guess,) are amplified by microphones and sound systems so that they can be heard in all but the smallest rooms. An acoustic guitar with a pick-up doesn't sound that different to an acoustic guitar amplified by a free-standing microphone and sound system. In the smallest coffee house in the 60's, people performed without a sound system, because one wasn't needed. The bigger clubs used microphones and apmlification, though. It's more a matter (to me) of being able to hear the music. That's why it is played.

Clear me up, greg..

Jerry

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 May 06 - 08:52 AM

Acoustic used to mean listened to naturally with the ears. Amplified meant amplified. They were opposites. An acoustic recording, likewise, meant sticking a mic in front of the singer, or instrument, and recording the noise they were making. Gradually the term "acoustic" has started to be used to mean "not very loud amplified", or "instruments without pickups", Or, nowadays, more commonly, "music from guitars that look as if they havent got pickups, but in fact have, so they still look like acoustic guitars,not solid bodied electrics".

   So you get a conflict of meaning. To me, an "acoustic session" means people sitting around playing fiddles, guitars, banjoes, accordions, whatever, acoustically. ie not amplified. But this is not always the current meaning of the word, it can also mean "not very amplified". Hence the confusion.
The same confusion applies to "unplugged". Which now, of course , means "plugged".

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: IanC
Date: 30 May 06 - 08:56 AM

Jerry

Without amplification, if people are listening, you can hear acoustic instruments in even the largest rooms (orchestras in the Albert Hall do OK). In pubs, which is what I thought we were talking about, the rooms are generally quite small. It's unusual not to be able to hear a guitar in most pubs, even the most crowded, though picking won't be heard from any distance if the pub's noisy. Melodeons, fiddles, banjos, tin whistles can all be heard easily. Flutes are sometimes a bit quiet unless you play them in the upper register.

Must be that pubs in the USA are, like many other things, much bigger.

;-)
Ian

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: redsnapper
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:06 AM

One needs a little help from electronics these days to help one's acoustic instrument and acoustic voice overcome the inevitable hairy heckler so prevalent in some of Mudcat's threads.

RS

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:08 AM

Ernest, the same happens here, someone wants to get exposure in a different world & decides Folk Clubs are it.

I can understand why someone who struggles to be heard in a noisy pub would prefer a respectful listening audience in a Folk club, but I want to hear folk music.

I don't want to hear rock'n'roll in my club. Nor was I interested in an offered demo from a singer/songwriter & his slash metal band (a kind of heavy metal). I wonder who he thought he was contacting, but as he did it thru our website, maybe he couldn't read. Anyone who mentions electricity gets a reply that our lease does not allow amplification!

I love traditional songs & music, and also singer/songwriters who write folk songs, people like John Warner (Anderson's Coast) who is a friend & member of my club.   

sandra

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Shiplap Structure3
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:11 AM

Dont you think its a pub trade thing to mangle meanings
What do you expect is going on in a Pub when it has a banner proclaiming live sport, everyone knows it means watching telly and shouting

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:16 AM

One of the funniest scenes I ever saw was backstage at Fox Hollow in the mid 70's when Evelyn & Don Bernstein were explaining that drums were not allowed because Fox Hollow only allowed "acoustic instruments."

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Tequila Sunrise
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:16 AM

Just waiting for Rockhen's onslaught.......

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: IanC
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:18 AM

Well ... to be fair, Acoustic originally just means you can hear it.

acoustic
1605, from Fr. acoustique, from Gk. akoustikos "pertaining to hearing," from akoustos "heard, audible," from akouein "to hear," from copulative prefix a- + koein "to mark, perceive, hear," from PIE base *(s)keu- "to notice, observe" (see caveat). Acoustics is attested from 1683. Acoustic guitars (as opposed to electric) first attested 1966.
Dictionary of Etymology

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:20 AM

" I don't want to hear rock'n'roll in my club."

Then don't get old.... cause to a lot of young people, what you call "Rock & Roll" -IS- 'Folk Music'

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Midchuck
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:22 AM

The plain fact is that my generation - those in their sixties now - were the last not to grow up listening to rock with powerful amplification; and therefore the last to even grasp the concept of shutting up and listening. People who are middle-aged or younger now, in general, consider it perfectly normal to carry on a conversation during a performance, and even to speak quite loudly so they can hear each other over the "interference" of the music.

So amplification becomes a necessity even in a small hall where you should be able to make yourself heard perfectly well without it.

Peter

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: MaineDog
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:28 AM

To me, acoustic means that the sound is produced entirely by the design and construction of the instrument, ie, wood, strings, pipes, bellows, skins, voice, breath, whatever, and not by any electronics.

If such an instrument needs to be amplified to be heard in a large hall or outdoor venue, then the amplification should not modify the sound of the instrument(s) except to make it louder.
MD

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:29 AM

The plain fact is that my generation - those in their sixties now - were the last not to grow up listening to rock with powerful amplification; and therefore the last to even grasp the concept of shutting up and listening.

Anyone under the age of 72 would have been a teenager or younger when the rock and roll era began.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:31 AM

A description I have heard is "unamplified," to mean that not only are acoustic (non-electric) instruments required, but that they also will not be run through a sound system and there will be no mic for voice. I know one venue here that does it that way-- but then their performing space allows for it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: MaineDog
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:45 AM

I remember how difficult it was at Fox Hollow to get the crowd to understand what it was that they would hear, or would not hear. One year
they almost had riots. A bunch of teens had come expecting a rock concert and were drunk and disappointed, and very disrespectful to the performers. Bernstein held up an electric (lizard-warming) rock from a pet store, saying it was not an apropriate musical instrument for his festival, and it was all downhill from there.
Now we have the Old Songs Festival, where they have learned not to get too excited about splitting hairs, and we all have a good time.
MD

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Northerner
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:46 AM

I was a librarian too orginally. Wasn't June Tabor a librarian originally too? I always take "accoustic" to mean that I'm not going to have my ear drums blasted by amplifiers. Yes, amplifiers are necessary in a large room or a concert situation.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 May 06 - 09:55 AM

"the last to even grasp the concept of shutting up and listening"
What an ignorant and 'age-ist' thing to say.....

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Midchuck
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:08 AM

"the last to even grasp the concept of shutting up and listening"
What an ignorant and 'age-ist' thing to say.....

It isn't ignorant, it's based on empirical experience as a performer - and as a Town Meeting moderator. And my wife's experience as a teacher.

It may well be ageist. So what. I've earned the right.

Peter

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:13 AM

Marshall 100watt stacks.... bring it on!

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:14 AM

To be dismissed as an arrogant cranky old fuck.... yes... yes you have.... Wear it in good.... no..... on second thought..... don't....


"it's based on empirical experience as a performer"
If you're doing you job as a performer (Or as a teacher... there's not a lot of difference.... we use lots of the same tools) you won't HAVE to fight for your audiences attention.... They will WANT to listen to you

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:23 AM

Hmmmm - I have been at a concert where I wanted to listed but could not because the loud-mouthed ignoramus next to me would not shut up - And this was at a concert we had all paid to get in! I asked him to be quite and he told me to f-off!

Was that because the performer was not going his job, Clinton, or because the person sat next to me was a gob-shite?

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: treewind
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:47 AM

Jerry has it about right. Greg is describing the peculiar UK irony that if you see a folk club advertised you usually expect unamplified music, but when you see an "acoustic music" night you almost know there will be a PA system.

It's illogical, but I think it reflects a different approach - what the "acoustic music" people mean is that they are using acoustic guitars (yeah, instead of a normal guitar...?) and more generally that no electric instruments as such are used - which is different from acoustic instruments + sound reinforcement. If you come from a background of rock'n'pop (which I don't), I suppose you need an adjective to make that distinction.

Anahata

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Bill D
Date: 30 May 06 - 11:28 AM

I want singers & musicians with nothing between them & me but air and a few bodies. I will 'make do' with the minimum necessary mics and speakers necessary neutrally amplified to allow me to hear them in the venue. Once the fiddle player reaches for a cord, and the electric keyboard comes out, they will have to be VERY good for me to even remain in the room.

Call me what you will, the music I enjoy most is the older stuff that does not require electronics, and where tune is emphasized over volume.

As to precise definitions, we can quibble forever whether 'acoustic' involves any electricity at all.....I will shrug and be happy if the instruments are acoustic, and made a wee bit louder by simple mics when required.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 May 06 - 11:29 AM

Thanks, greg: There is a different meaning here to the word acoustic. I think over here that "acoustic" is about the instrument, not the ears. Pubs are propbably much like the listening rooms in some bars over here, and the smaller coffee houses. I ran a concert series for 27 years in a room with wonderful acoustics. There was no need for a sound system, and I preferred it that way. I had a full sound system stored in the closet of the room which I used for outdoor concerts. I booked plenty of bands through that time and never used a sound system.

For me, the appeal of not using a sound system as a performer is that you don't play the mic. You play the audience. Sometimes it's hard to do both. If you move too far from the mic, the sound drops. That limits the freedom to move which, for me, is part of playing and singing.

I often play in nursing homes with terrible acoustics, where many of the residents have difficulty hearing. Sometimes (but not usually) I use a sound system, kept low, just because I am concerned that the residents won't be able to hear the music.

For me, the test is always .. can the audience hear the music? If they can, I prefer using no amplification. If they can't hear without it, then it makes no sense not to use it.

Jerry

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 May 06 - 12:19 PM

In UK , pubs are usually quite noisy - IF you are doing a whole evening without amplification , you will finish up unable to gig for forty eight hours , or risk serious vocal chord strain ! However , I
much prefer straight UN Amplified stuff , especially if there are a number of possible performers ! Greg has raised a very good point with regard to the terminology used by venues for Unplugged and Acoustic events .

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 May 06 - 01:44 PM

Well, I just had a gig enquiry come in, to play at a garden party. Acoustically. So we contact the rest of the band, and say "Gig offer. Not a lot of money, but it wont be hard work, it's acoustic". We all speak the same language, English, and speak it fairly fluently. We all know what the enquiry means. Acoustically=no PA to carry in,set up, and fiddle with to get the sound right. Simple. And bleeding obvious, till recently, when the new meaning of "acoustic" as "only a bit amplified" started creeping in. I am just registering a protest that is a new meaning that is merely confusing to me. Not to say irritating.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,P.O.U.M.
Date: 30 May 06 - 02:00 PM

I'm waiting for Victor Meldrew to come in on this one. Perhaps he kicked it off under Greg's alias.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: jojofolkagogo
Date: 30 May 06 - 02:06 PM

And jOhn Connelly is also a "Grumpity grumpy Ol' man"

FAB Song John, loved it at Cleethorpes !!!!!

Jo-Jo

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 May 06 - 02:15 PM

Sorry, the librarian comment was a little flippancy to startdiscussion rolling. I am very fond of librarians. In fact, anyone who has bought the latest Boat Band CD will have noticed that I thank librarians profusely on the liner notes, for their contribution to the scene.
    Mind you, I was thanking them for their maintaining collections of traditional songs, not for their song-writing abilities. Which are, presumably, much like anyone else's. Some good, some not.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 30 May 06 - 02:26 PM

Greg said:
"An acoustic recording, likewise, meant sticking a mic in front of the singer, or instrument, and recording the noise they were making"

OK, so how is this different from sticking a mic in front of a performer & running it through a speaker so the entire audience can hear the noise they are making?

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Anne Lister
Date: 30 May 06 - 03:44 PM

I think, judging by some of the people who use the word "folk" in various permutations in their descriptions on MySpace, that it's not only the word "acoustic" that is somewhat deceptive. But we're never going to agree on what "folk" means, either .... All I know is that there are a lot of different perceptions out there!

And I've always wondered what sort of a different audience would stroll on in if a folk club described itself in its promo as an acoustic music club. I wonder who would be most unsettled by the evening, assuming the folk club behaved in all other ways as a folk club?

Anne

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Rasener
Date: 30 May 06 - 04:12 PM

Blimey this thread is spooky.
I was only thinking to myself the other day, that I would love to know how something can be called Acoustic, when PA was used. But not being very knowledgable on this subject, thought that I might sound a bit stupid asking.

Up till recently, I have shied away from using PA at my club. However, with good sized audiences, it has at times been difficult to hear the voices of some performers, especially if there are 70 in the room.

Of recent PA has been used and has helped this situation. I am not one for loud PA, but have been very happy for the PA.

I would like to come to the defence of John Conolly and Fiddlers Green.
John is one of the nicest persons one could ever wish to meet, very knowledgeable and very humerous when on stage. John has appeared on several occasions at my club, and when he has said that his next song is Fiddlers Green, the audience have genuinly said Yes Yes. You may not like it Greg, but there are an awful lot who do like it. I have to laugh, becuase the last time he appeared at my club, I cocked up my intro for him. I announced that John was the person who wrote that wonderful song called "Fiddler On The Roof" and he immediately started singing "If I was a rich man" and when he stopped singing, he said "I wish I had written it, as I would have made millions". I wish I had a video of it now as it was a treasure, and showed that this man had wonderful ad lib reactions and certainly has wonderful charisma.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Marje
Date: 30 May 06 - 04:48 PM

If I can just add a Grumpy Woman's comments, I'd like to say I agree completely with Grumpy Greg. When I see something described as an "acoustic" night, I would (logically) expect this to mean there's no PA system, no electrics involved at all, but it seems to mean almost the opposite.

But I think I see why there is confusion. I think it may be that whereas folkies are used to unamplified music and song, those who are used to more mainstream pop music are used to backing tracks, sampling, dubbing, and all the other tricksy stuff that goes on. When they say "acoustic", they seem to mean that the sounds you'll hear are actually emanating from the singers or instruments present in the room, as opposed to pre-recorded or pre-set keyboard tracks, recorded backing vocals, etc.

So from the pop point of view, "acoustic" means a more authentic, live performance, whereas to those used to the folk scene, it's not "acoustic" if it's amplified. Maybe we just need to drop the word and find new ways of describing what we mean.

The whole issue of whether amplification is a good idea or not is another matter entirely, and what's accepted as normal seems to be different in the US and UK. I will just add one observation: in my experience, as soon as you get amplification in an informal venue, the audience noise level soars, and they become a lot less engaged with the music - the PA system seems to create a barrier between the audience and the music and make them less attentive.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Rasener
Date: 30 May 06 - 05:00 PM

informal venue is an important point. A pub would suggest that. A village hall is totally different

At my club, the audience is is very attentive and give the performer much respect and listen to their songs. It is held in a village hall.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Mo the caller
Date: 30 May 06 - 05:41 PM

Just been listening to marvellous acoustic music at Chippenham festival.
Yes, we were an attentive audience, it was in a converted chapel and every note could be heard, upstairs and down.
They knew a bit, the people who built chapels (or most of them, I can remember South Harrow Baptist church, where you had a choice of whether to sing in time with the organ or the congregation)

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 06 - 05:57 PM

A PA system can actually backfire, because it can encourage people to talk away during the music, Or even bellow, if the sound is turned up. Then, when there's has a quiet bit, and there's nothing coming through the mike, the bellow roars out very noticeably. Quite comic somertimes, but irritating.

There's the old saying that the best way to quieten a noisy crowd down can be to sing something quiet that people want to hear.

Why the crack against librarians though? Ordinary people doing a valuable job, what's wrong with that?

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,Rev
Date: 30 May 06 - 06:52 PM

There's a band here in the states, based in Austin, TX., called the Asylum Street Spankers who play a freakish combination of old time, ragtime, western swing, classic city blues, and even hip hop (reformulated as "hick-hop"), all without the dubious benefit of what they call "demon electricity." Their shows are usually great, and they make a point of getting their audiences, often very young, to shut up and listen and participate. Recently though, due to their growing popularity, they've been playing larger venues, and they've started using amplification. Now they're trying to have it both ways, they use amplification, but keep the volume low so as to try to encourage the same kind of quiet listening. The problem is, every time they ask the audience to be quiet, some bozo in the audience shouts "turn up the PA," or something similar. My point is, I think that there is an interest and market for unamplified music, even amongst young people, but choosing to perform that way requires certain compromises, like only playing fairly small venues.

One other quick point regarding the statement:
"An acoustic recording, likewise, meant sticking a mic in front of the singer, or instrument, and recording the noise they were making"
Actually the term "acoustic recording" is used to describe recordings made in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that did not use microphones at all. They used the big cones, like on an old victrola, with a diaphragm that vibrated, and transferred the sound onto a wax disc or cylinder. So acoustic recordings, like acoustic instruments, do not use electricity.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:07 PM

Did I say a word against John Connolly or Fiddlers Green? Or librarians? Of course I didnt. I said that a song written by a librarian is not the same thing is a folk song. according to the old definition of folk song. Just as an acoustic song (old definition) is not the same as an amplified song. In point of fact I love Fiddlers Green, love John Connolly's work, and some of my best friends are librarians.
All I'm saying is "acoustic" and "amplified" are opposites, in my book.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Rockhen
Date: 30 May 06 - 08:31 PM

Hello tequila Sunrise.....!
This is sort-of related to the thread...a tiny bit, at least!... although I am going on about something I have ranted about before...sorry if I bore some of you... as well as my non-electric v traditional accordion...I play the piano....eeeek...shock horror...There aren't many places with a decent piano in them. I have a stage piano which I can use as a keyboard and play nasty loud rock keyboardy stuff. I can also use it through its own speakers to play as though it is a traditional piano...no fancy effects just a very simple plain piano sound. At a volume equal or less than a normal piano. I would love to play piano ballads and similar, sometimes, at local acoustic nights...I don't sing loudly and would only be able to play quite quietly, so as not to drown out my very small voice...unfortunately, unlike a traditional piano ....my piano uses ELECTRICITY to make it work....oh, dear...well you can't play that nasty horrible modern thing at our acoustic night cos it just isn't traditional and proper like our lovely guitars...(that we also plug in and use as electric acoustic at open mics...)
It just isn't fair! :-(
PS Thank you to Villan for being open-minded, in my view and allowing me to play my lovely piano...in a way I hope is tuneful, not plonky and sometimes...dare i say it, almost beautiful...at his club

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 May 06 - 08:53 PM

Well, Rockhen, I was just about to complain that my old portable reed organ (about 50 years +) which is a single keyboard with a Stradella Bass, that needs a 240V power point to run the electric fan to blow the reeds really is just an 'acoustic instrument'...

It's just a piano accordion without the bellows really... :-)

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 May 06 - 08:59 PM

Come to think of it, "Pipe Organs" are just purely 'acoustic instruments' only too - even though when electricity became readily available, they pensioned off the excess farm labourers who used to have to manually work the bellows...

However, there's not too much danger of one turning up to a 'Folk Music' evening, I suppose, so it's a bit of a moot point!

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Rasener
Date: 31 May 06 - 02:09 AM

Rockhen, no need to thank me. If you play with piano, thats what you do and I have to say that it is always welcome at the club.
Variety is the spice of life. :-)

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 31 May 06 - 03:00 AM

I spy a big error here - amplifiers are NOT needed in concert halls if you have the right instrument. I had the honour to listen to the great Segovia in a concert hall with more than 1000 people, and he played unplugged.
In pubs you also don't need amplifiers; you can play louder, and people will listen to good music, especially when and if they came for this occasion.
I'm a strong advocate for unplugged music - as I often tell the colleagues from the electric branch: When the fuse blows, you have to stop in the dark. We shall continue playing by heart.

IanC has said all that is necessary about acoustic = concerned with hearing. As the opposite of amplified I prefer natural.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Micca
Date: 31 May 06 - 03:23 AM

Q How many Folkies does it take to change a light bulb?


A 8, one to change the light bulb

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: treewind
Date: 31 May 06 - 03:30 AM

...and the other 7 to complain because it's electric

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 31 May 06 - 03:33 AM

and another six thousand to say how much better the old bulb was.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Micca
Date: 31 May 06 - 03:36 AM

3 to write a song about how good the old one was


and 4 to complain it was electric




Sorry about the sudden post I pressed the wrong button, electric, you see, I have little to contribute to the debate, but I always feel, and have felt that the amplification can (not always) get between the performer and the listener, (with amplification it tends to be Performer and Audience) and the "intimacy" oft he relationship between a singer (in particular)and the listener is reduced. with respect to Rockhens comments above this also applies to instruments like the Piano, I have been privelaged to hear Classical Chamber music both piano, Harpsichord and string Music in the intimate settings it was written for and Wonderful stuff it was too. Again it is this "intimacy" that is sometimes lost when a larger venue (or amplification) is needed. It is this "No barriers" between the performer and the listener, be it orchestra pit or Amplifier that I prefer.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Sooz
Date: 31 May 06 - 03:58 AM

A new club has started in this neck of the woods which calls itself an "acoustic music club". They used to word so as not to frighten people off by using the word "folk"!. (They don't use a PA)

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: s&r
Date: 31 May 06 - 04:41 AM

Ask for an acoustic guitar in a music shop and you'll be shown a steel strung acoustic - never nylon. Why?

Stu

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 31 May 06 - 05:41 AM

Librarians? The worst songs tend to be written by Primary School teachers!!!

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Rockhen
Date: 31 May 06 - 06:20 AM

Say that to me when I am armed with my accordion...!!! :-) Or better still...my piano!!!!! Lol...

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 May 06 - 07:37 AM

...better yet, you can use my or..... oops!!

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Rockhen
Date: 31 May 06 - 09:06 AM

no comment!

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: melodeonboy
Date: 31 May 06 - 10:32 AM

It's not really a matter of whether amplification is good or bad; it's "horses for courses". If you need it, use it; if you don't, don't.

It really comes down to using the language accurately so that we say what we mean. I too have been baffled by seeing the word "unplugged" on recordings that are technically no different from, say, Black Sabbath, apart from the fact that the guitar being used is a different shape and could, were it used in a different environment, be used to produce acoustic sound.

I think this issue arises from the lack of an accurate term to describe a genre of music (difficult to define precisely, so I shan't attempt it!) which seems to revolve around people (often singer-songwriters) who play "dual-purpose" guitars, i.e. those that can be played either acoustically or through an amp or PA system, and who usually play them amplified in a "performance" setting.

Whenever my instruments are amplified in any way, I do not regard myself as playing acoustically.

Ultimately, I think Greg Stephens is right: something's either acoustic or it's not.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: JennyO
Date: 31 May 06 - 10:40 AM

Most of our folk clubs in Sydney are similar to the UK clubs, and are mostly unamplified. The one that is different from the others, and is amplified, is called....


































ALMOST ACOUSTIC!

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Ernest
Date: 31 May 06 - 11:00 AM

Wilfried: are there any pubs that fit your description in your parts? I would love to find one...
Here in Berlin there are 2, the Celtic Cottage (due to troublesome neighbors) and the Union Jack (very small)
Best wishes
Ernest

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 31 May 06 - 11:26 AM

Ernest- I'm from Friedberg, about 30 km north of Frankfurt a.M.
We have a pub called Trompetchen; every second friday of the month there is a jazz session. The pub is in a small cellar, amplification would deafen the audience.
The Friedberg Society for German-Irish Understanding has sometimes folkies playing Irish music (solo to trio ore more). They had to leave their home and are meeting now in a pub called Galerie until they find a new club home.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Ernest
Date: 31 May 06 - 01:35 PM

Thank you Wilfried,
I did know about the German-Irish Society loossing their home (I am on their mailing list since an - amplified - concert of the Sands Family a few years ago thet they hosted), but never know about the Trompetchen. I will check it out when I get the chance!
Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 06 - 02:07 PM

My band plays acoustic, even if we're asked to amplify. Begged...in some cases.

Don't have a problem with other folks doing it, we just don't.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 31 May 06 - 03:08 PM

I blame Music Industry marketing tossers for any confusion. To these simple-minded money-grubbers anything 'acoustic' must be 'Folk'.

'Folk Rock' and 'Celtic Military Bands' are also 'Folk', of course -

incapable of thinking it through, aren't you, you tossers?!!

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Keef
Date: 31 May 06 - 07:59 PM

Problem that I have with PA is that it kills the chorus. I love to sing anything with a rabble rousing chorus and I can almost always get the whole crowd to belt out "midnight special" or "16 Ton" (folk???)
Do the same thing with a PA and the participation drops way down.
I went to the beer tent at a recent festival and the performer (amplified) was moaning cos nobody was joining the chorus...well I couldn't even hear if I was singing in tune unless I put my hand on the side of my head (very folkie that!) so I gave up too.
I think that amplification creates a performer/audience divide and the audience goes back to passive/apathetic mode.
I've been to many a festival where the power went off temporarily and the audience and performer were having a great time for several numbers, then the power came back on and it was back to normal and not half as enjoyable.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 May 06 - 08:06 PM

Keef,

"Acoustic" musical performance has inherent limits on the number who can hear and participate - when you want to turn it into a music making industry selling thousands of tickets, then you kill it.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: frogprince
Date: 31 May 06 - 08:33 PM

Perhaps if I saw the actual situation Keef is talking about, I would get his point. In my own experience, I couldn't begin to count the times when I've been in settings, ranging from just big enough that a mike and modest PA was called for to large open ampitheaters where major systems were essential, in which the audience has joined in loud and strong at every opportunity.
To the degree that amplification is cranked up beyond what is needed to hear the perfomer properly, to that degree it will wall off the audience as non-participants. (Unless you count incoherent screams as audience participation).

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: 282RA
Date: 31 May 06 - 08:56 PM

I think "acoustic" comes from the Greek word "akouo" or "akouei" which means "listen."

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 06 - 09:23 PM

Yeh its okay if you've got a nice respectful audience, but even folk clubs are pretty partisan - they are pretty grudging as to whom they will grant respect.

A couple of years ago I saw a room ful of people cheated out of an evening of listening to Wizz Jones because a few noisy herberts outside decided it wasn't really folk music - not being about vital up to the minute subjects like pretty mill girls being deserted by their soldier laddies, and chasing the fox. Some people had travelled long distances to see Wizz.

I remember my favourite guitarist of all time - the late Gerry Lockran going through an eveing of solid shit like that one night in Sutton Coldfield. And I swear to this day that very few people who claim to worship the ground Martin carthy stands on actually understand what a brilliant musician he is, cos like someone says you can't hear picking all that well unamplified. Its a quiet instrument.

So I say use anything that enhances your hearing of the acoustic sound. For two reasons - first there is a long tradition of complete noisy inattentive arseholes getting in to see the best guitarists. This goes right back to the days of Django Rheinhardt - who was never really an electric guitarist - he was forced to go electric by noisy audiences.

Secondly there are creative possibilties in processing the acoustic sound. Last weekend I saw a guitarist accompanying Vikki Clayton at Belvoir Castle - Chris Conway. he is wonderful. I wonder if he gives lessons.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: redsnapper
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 11:05 AM

Don't agree Keef.

I run a regular "acoustic blues" jam with modest use of a PA (OK... maybe we crank it up a bit at the end!). It hasn't prevented audience participation at all and audience ambient noise at such events tend to be a little more than when a knowledgeable and reverential folk audience is listening to, say, Martin Carthy or a classical audience as in Wilfried's Segovia example.

At the trad session I run in the same venue, it is always unamplified and those who come to listen to that are generally aware of, and sympathetic, to that.

The problem comes, and I have run a folk club in the UK in the past for five years, in the type of situation WLD describes. There is, unfortunately, a habit/tradition at some FCs (but by no means all) of noisy heckling as I mentioned above. In those situations, light use of a PA can be useful if the venue demands it. I certainly do not want to lose my voice or trash an expensive instrument because of some ignorant noisy bearded wazzocks in the audience.

RS

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 12:55 PM

noisy, ignorant bearded wazzocks....lets be fair, not all the women going to folk clubs are like that.

you will be alarming all our friends across the water whom I have just got interested in starting folk clubs. Cool it man....you might got a gig there.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Keef
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 06:34 PM

I was in Ireland a few years ago, midsummer and pubs all very crowded.
Some places had a mike hanging above the table where the session players gathered. That was only a very low powered amp and did a good job.
I still think that you cannot improve on the natural acoustics of a good room. The subtle harmonies that can seem to float around the room just don't happen when amplification is used.
My gripe is against UNNECCESSARY amplification. I know of several "folk clubs" which do have an attentive audience, held in quite a small room that does have good acoustics but short of an act of god like a power failure the organisers will insist on stuffing around with microphones and also put on background music in between just in case you might be tempted to have a quiet chat with your friends during the break.
This is a bit off subject but I have been in accapella choirs for a long time, when we perform acoustically in halls, it is always good. When we do an outdoor performance and are all strung out in a line with a shared mike for each section of the group..it is almost always a disaster. Only the singer closest to the mike is heard, we can't hear the blend in the foldback and the sound engineer keeps turning up the gain until it is at the point of howling feedback.
Anyone got any tips to improve that situation? I think we usually have the wrong type of microphone (designed for up close use) whereas what we probably need is a central mike that can pick up the overall sound.
Problem with that is that type of mike is more prone to feedback if amp turned up too high.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Pistachio
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 06:55 PM

My husband - who does not care for 'my type of singing' reckons that accoustic is 'au naturel' the sound of the voice(s) and the sound of the instrument(s).
If I have ever been 'encouraged' to use a microphone I have been lucky to have just enough 'power' applied to lift my voice to the back of the venue. I detest the over-loud amplification that is cranked up.Venues do not need the power. the listeners might just have to pay attention!
Goodnight.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 07:21 PM

I always thought acoustic was the thing you shot billiards with or could also be used by say, oh, Midchuck for instance, to bash over Clinton's head.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 01:41 PM

Acoustick is what you bash heifers with.

Cheers all

Jim

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 05:35 PM

One of the unsung bastions of real acoustic music (in the US, at least) is the house concert. Some of these have provided the finest listining I've encountered in decades.

And, of course, you get to see the musicicians, without peering round a cluster of shiny microphones.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: JamesBerriman
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 06:24 PM

I'm reminded of a truly surreal experience at the Keele Folk Club some years ago. For the Christmas Party, posters were put up advertising 'Acoustic Jam'. A large contingent of the regular folk club crowd turned out with their acoustic instruments, ready to party the night away.

Imagine the scene, then, as an electric band took to the stage and started hammering out 70s and 80s rock music to the accompaniment of a drum machine. The lead singer looked like a refugee from Spinal Tap. Their name, much like their performance, was evidently a joke.

The whole event swiftly degenerated into a row between two factions - the serious folkies who were all for kicking the band out and having a singaround versus the other half of the room who had evidently mistaken the Pig and Rat (or Barnes Bar as it was once known) for the Students Union disco. A riot was only narrowly averted.

Ah, how those memories come flooding back. Excuse me while I wipe the tears from my eyes...

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Keef
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 06:48 PM

I blame Eric Clapton!
Pretty sure that he was the first to use "unplugged" for an album.
He did at least use an acoustic guitar.
Since then "unplugged" nights have been plugged a lot!!
Oh well
Plug the lot of em!
I just watched a rerun of the Karen Carpenter story.
She only ever sang in a whisper and with the microphone almost touching her lips. But what a beautiful voice though.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 09:44 PM

OK, Keefe, get this: I went with a number of friends to see the Carpenters live, in Chicago. The amplification was turned up past the threshold of pain. It had to be the worst case of totally inappropriate use of a sound system I've encountered yet. That beautiful voice, for sure, but the idiots made it impossible to enjoy it.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Keef
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 07:24 AM

Well FP, you could perhaps have had a quiet chat with the sound engineer.
He would be able to advise you on sex and travel.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 08:09 AM

ROFLMAO...

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 10:02 PM

And had I had the opportunity to chat with him, I would have been tempted to suggest an experiment in sexual self-satisfaction for him, even though I realize it's physically impossible for at least most people. Anyhow, I agree with you totally about over amplification, and never more so than in this instance.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 08:47 AM

An accoustic instrument would be one that doesnt require the presense of electrical amplification to allow it to be played.
Amplified and Accoustic are not oposites are they?
I prefer the smaller venues were people have gone to listen to the music and the organisor/steward chucks em out if they wont shut up.
But in our area we have pubs that sell more beer by having nights when there is aa PA available and anyone can come along plug in and or sing.
There are also nights for sing arounds or even the dreaded sessions
there is no PA and the players just stand or sit and play in turn.
I enjoy both but as Said prefer listening and playing unamplified.
Pianos of the electric variety are capable of being played without PA so what is the problem.
If you define an accoustic night as one were no pa is available and you can still play your instrument isn those conditions whats the problem?
Villans club is great and the PA is kept to a minimum and there is no rule to say you have to use it.
Is the performers choice innit?

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: JamesBerriman
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:19 PM

Well, here's one to put the cat among the acoustic pigeons (Just down the road for Greg). I'd be intrigued to see a few of these performing 'acoustically'.

The 'Acoustic (un-plugged) Festival of Britain'

I spotted the poster in Morrisons this afternoon.

From the web page:

An eclectic programme of Unplugged and Acoustic music from the genres of Folk, Roots, Celtic, Blues, Pop, Rock, Ska and much more set in rural South Cheshire. A great family day out, with 3 Music Tents, Stalls, Craft Displays, Juggling Schools, Beer Tent, Wine Bar, Enormous Marquees, Exotic Foods, Harry Ramsdens Chip Shop and a Record Fair.

Bristling with icons and music legends from 5 decades over 6,000 music fans each day will be enjoying 34 artists over 2 days on 3 stages including. The Stranglers, Steve Harley, Glenn Tilbrook from Squeeze, Elkie Brooks, The Animals, Paul Jones and The Blues Band, Pauline Black with acoustic supergroup 3MEN+Black, Mike Peters (The Alarm), Dennis Locorriere (the voice of Dr. Hook), Tom Hingley (Inspiral Carpets), Hayseed Dixie, Ezio, Waking the Witch, Ed Tudor Pole (ex Tenpole Tudor & Sex Pistols), Jackie McShee's Pentangle, Chumbawamba (acoustic) Ian McNabb (Icicle Works) The Cheshire Chord Company, and Sandi Thom.

JUST CONFIRMED American Grammy Award winning Bluegrass legend, Del McCoury and his band are making their ONLY UK festival appearance in the Sunday lineup - BOOK NOW !

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 08:25 PM

Well, that might be able to be guaranteed - who wants to put the axe thru the power feed?

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:11 AM

I have noticed that keyboards and electric basses are all deployed within this field of "acoustic" music.
   I am in the middle of discussions at the minute about organising a really acoustic festival next year. I wonder if there would be many takers. It would not be a quiet do with lots of people strumming guitars though. It would have samba drum, New Orleans jazz, and many forms of music which have evolved while being played acoustically, and I think it would be interesting for audiences to hear evrything played in thatway.
   In this thread, by the way, I have been trying to discuss the meaning of the word, and how it is used. I have not been making value judgements, I think electric guitars are great. I just think that sometimes there's a time and place for real acoustic music, because there is a special magic when muscians are hearin each other, and the audience is hearing them, without any intermediate activity.
   And I think the word "acoustic" used to mean that kind of music, and it would be nice if it meant that again, so that a poster saying "Acoustic Music" was unambiguous.. But that is a losing battle, I think.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Scrump
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:17 AM

I remember when Bob Dylan released an "Unplugged" album in the 1990s, I remarked "Blimey, I can remember him before he was plugged!" ;-)

Interesting discussion. I'm afraid as Greg says, it is a losing battle, and probably has been since Dylan, Ashley Hutchings et al started folk rock back in the 60s and 70s. Would we really want to go back to the days when everything was 100% acoustic though? I doubt many would.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 09:25 AM

Scrump: at the risk of being seriously repetitive, I dont have the slightest desire to go back to things being 100% acoustic. Amplification is fine. I just wish that acoustic could be used to mean unamplified, which is what it used to mean. That would make the world a lot simpler.
I dont wish to change one bit of how people choose to play music. Sitting in my kitchen playing a few tunes, acoustic is fine. Playing on stage at Glastonbury, amplification is fine. I just think that a bit of precision in the words we use to describe things is often a good thing.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 08:53 PM

As Humpty Dumpty said to Alice
"A word means just what I want it to mean, no more, no less."

"But", said Alice...

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Keef
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 02:14 AM

Ah...keyboards and bass guitars, tricky one that.
I did run a few "acoustic nights" and did try to please everyone (mistake). I think there is a place for genuinely acoustic music events.
An electronic piano even if played quietly through its inbuilt speakers is just not the same as a proper piano. Take a reasonable piano (in tune) add a competent player and a merry throng, pretty soon you will have a group around the piano belting out "dirty ditties" at the minimum. Electronic keyboards are more convenient, stay in tune etc but they don't seem to have that same magic.
I went to one show where a very accomplished player had brought along her priceless antique double bass, the sound engineer absolutely insisted on mikeing it up so that everyone could hear it better.
Louder does not always mean better. She may as well have been playing a $30 Taiwanese copy for all the tonal quality that survived the amplification process.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 02:26 AM

The problem Keef, is that these sound engineers are very clever fellows, and they just 'know' what all those acoustic instruments should sound like (may have actually heard one once!) - so when they don't - they 'FIX' it... well & truly...

as in

"Your clock's not chiming any more?"
"Yup! I fixed it!"

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: JamesBerriman
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 06:41 PM

Greg,

I hope your idea for a real acoustic festival is a success.

It sounds like a great idea to me.

James

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 07:09 PM

The goal of amplifying a band playing acoustic instruments should be to make them sound like themselves, but louder. This is called "transparency" -- ideally, the listener will forget that there is a sound system between the band and his ears, and just enjoy the music loud and clear.

My band has a fiddler doubling on mandolin, sometimes another fiddler doubling on melodeon, a female vocalist doubling on whistles, a percussionist, sometimes two, and myself singing and playing guitar and bouzouki. And just recently we added a bassist.

All these instruments and voices have different inherent volume levels. When the percussionist(s) get(s) going - completely unamplified - the singer can't hear herself very well, therefore she needs a microphone. When the melodeon is playing, the mandolin gets drowned out, therefore it needs to be plugged in (or mic'd).

The fiddler at the other end of the stage and the drummer need to hear my guitar clearly for cues, therefore it needs to be plugged in. The acoustic bass occupies too much of the same sound spectrum as the low end of the guitar, therefore we use electric bass which needs to be plugged in.

It's all about achieving a balance where a. the audience can hear every player, b. the players can all hear themselves, and c. the players can all hear each other.

It's not too hard to do if you have a good sound system, decent mics, and a modicum of taste and ear. And yes, I still call it acoustic music.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 10:46 AM

June Tabor was a libran as well.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,Ritzbew
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 12:01 PM

If you follow the world of opera, there's been a bit of a ruckus recently about certain opera companies using amplification -- anathema to the old guard opera afficianadoes who believe opera should be totally unamplified. But the opera companies find that their audiences demand amplified music, because, they say, the Baby Boom generation is suffering hearing loss as they grow older, because Baby Boomers listened to so much over-amplified music as young adults. In reply, the old guard opera buffs claim that amplification will tempt singers to skimp on voice training and projection, becoming dependent on amplification (a claim that has a ring of truth to it). Most observers, however, agree that amplification will continue to spread in the world of opera. Audiences demand it, and opera companies that don't use amplification are seeing decreasing ticket sales. Want to bet that soon there will be "acoustic opera companies"? We'll see ads for "La Traviata Unplugged"!!

So my $.02 worth is this: like the opera world, we're stuck with amplified music now, because more people are suffering hearing loss now, because they've listened to too much over-amplified music. Sigh.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 12:36 AM

Wot£?

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,Asia
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 12:38 AM

Yikes!

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Snuffy
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 08:52 AM

The introduction of Fender's Passport Sound Systems defined the truly portable PA system. Designed with simplicity, efficiency, and portability in mind, a Passport system is the ideal system for working musicians, acoustic groups, club and lounge performers, and corporate and educational presenters alike.

No comment.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 06:34 AM

Have you tried using a Dictionary???

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 07:50 AM

Noddy: you are quite right that dictionaries are useful, but for guidance only. Some dictionaries (eg OED) provide excellent definitions of how words were used in the past: it is continuously updated, but the meanings of certain words(eg acoustic and folk) mutate extremely fast, and their multiple shades of meaning vary far too quickly for the OED to keep up with.
   Other dictionaries(particularly in France I am told) try to be prescriptive: to say what words ought to mean, rather than defining them by usage. That approach is equally useless here. We are discussing just how "acoustic" is used now: to figure out just what it might mean if the poster outside the pub says "acoustic music night" for example. My guess, in those circumstances, is that the music would probably be people singing with guitars, amplified. But I wouldnt be sure. It might mean people having a session, acoustically(ie unamplified). Dictionaries are no help here, we need to establish usage. And if the current usage is too ambiguous to be informative, consider changing the usage, which is of course nearly impossible. Basically, one side or the other has to give in. The recent conroversy on the BBC's use of the word "gay" is a good case in point. Anone aged 50 or 60 plus in England will have experienced two conroversies about the meaning of this word, as it channge from "lighthearted, insouciant" to "homesexual", and is currently making the transition(among the young) to meaning "rubbish".

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 11:01 AM

Wow! Just harmlessly reading this fascinating thread to while away a Saturday evening at work, and I suddenly discover my (totally acoustic) music is 'gay' on two counts!

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 05:47 AM

'Electroacoustic' is how instrument dealers list their guitars, etc., that come complete with pick-ups. They are also likely to list pure acoustic instruments seperatly. Maybe sessions could be advertised with a similar distinction?

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,Stephen
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 05:42 PM

Don't you remember, a long time ago, the flap about eelskin wallets deleting information from the magnetized strip on credit cards? When someone asked what I knew about it, I told him that that happened only if the wallet was made from the skin of an electric eel. An acoustic eel won't do it.

Stephen

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Rockhen
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 05:55 PM

Re Keef's comment "An electronic piano even if played quietly through its inbuilt speakers is just not the same as a proper piano. Take a reasonable piano (in tune) add a competent player and a merry throng, pretty soon you will have a group around the piano belting out "dirty ditties" at the minimum. Electronic keyboards are more convenient, stay in tune etc but they don't seem to have that same magic."

Before long, I believe there will very few pianos remaining in public places. Either piano music starts to die out or we have to find an alternative...depends upon your personal opinion, which option you prefer, LOL!
My electric piano is different to my traditional piano but it is very realistic and can be played expressively. I hope I manage to make a good attempt at doing just that. I have had a lot of nice evenings with friends singing "dirty ditties" as you put it around it and they didn't seem to mind it being electric. It is different to a keyboard and is as near as you can get to a piano without being one...
Ok Ok...I love my pianos and can't bear to miss the chance to play them if people want to listen! Biased? Yes, definitely! :-)

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 06:55 PM

A really, really GOOD electronic keyboard can sound just as warm and real as an acoustic piano, in my opinion. Some of them are even built to look like acoustic pianos.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 04:47 AM

It's only a matter of time before we'll all be playing tunes on mobile phones..........................!

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Ernest
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:09 AM

Yes, there are elecric pianos that look and sound like real ones...

... and there are politicians that look and sound like humans....

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Keef
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 07:20 AM

Woohoo!!
What a great thread. From pianos to opera et all.
I'm not seriously suggest that amplification be banned but I think that real acoustic performance is becoming an endangered species.
It is obvious that there is a limit on how large an audience can enjoy listening to a performance "sans yamaha".
Albert Hall or Carnegie...no problem...I'd give it a go!
Wembley Stadium? No probably not....
From my own experience as an audience member I have had heard many more performances spoiled by excessive amplification than by lack of decibels.
It is much easier to shush idiots in the audience than to influence a power crazed insensitive new age sound person.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,nickp (cookieless)
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 02:30 PM

Re the 3rd post - not a song but (I'm fairly sure that) Nigel Carter from London is responsible for the tune 'Turnham Green' used by the 'Paddington Pandemonic' (I'm struggling with memory here) clog team. I have a feeling it was a variation of British Grenadiers done in the minor.

I'll let you get back to the point...

Nick

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Slag
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:19 PM

Well, someone beat me to the old "shooting pool" line so nix that. All pre-electric age musical insturments have some sort of mechanical amplification devise incorporated into their design so acoustic does NOT mean "unamplified". Rather, I take it to mean "sans electronic amplification". So, if you buy a CD of an acoustic performance and play it in your handy little CD player, is it still acoustic???

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,Rob the Roadie
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 01:52 PM

Well I am roadie for Taggart and Wright who specialise in unaccompanied singing (acapella) and at their recent gig at the Middlewich Folk and Boat Festval if it was not for the use of a PA borrowed from Kevin Farrell at the last minute(thanks Kevin) they would not have been heard in what was a very busy and noisey pub The Narrowboat. As it even the diners at the very far end could hear them and they went down a treat. Now they were acoustic as you can get but used a PA to be heard!

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Ernest
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 01:56 PM

Just as canned meat is fresh, Slag...

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: melodeonboy
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 05:53 PM

I notice in the "What's On" supplement of today's Kent Messenger that the Flower Pot in Maidstone is hosting an "Electro Acoustic Jam Night" next week!

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 03:54 PM

I have just done a good few gigs acoustically(ie without amplification). These included arts centres; village halls(not that large,but a fair size, audiences up to about 140); pubs(in the bar). Now, not one single person came up and complained they couldn't hear(though I'm sure some may have had some difficulty, if they had hearing problems). But a lot of people always make a point of saying how thoroughly nice it is to hear instuments and voices through the air from the performer in the old way, un processed. Now, obviously you can't play rock and roll acoustically, I wouldn't want to. But playing acoustically seems to me a great thing to try, when performing the kind of music that was created that way. And I think there is a market out there for people who like it.
   It has been said earlier on this thread that you "have " to amplify music, so that enough people can hear the music to make it economic. Well, do you "have" to? It's perfectly easy to play a folk gig to two hundred people in a hall with nice acoustics without a PA. People often pay £10 to go to a folk gig, in fact they often pay a lot more. But let's say £10. So that generates £2000 on the door. A typical door deal would give the group 80%., ie £1600. £400 apiece, for a four person group(or a bit less after taking off the travel and some other expenses. You can generally get put up for free). Now, nobody can tell me you "need" to earn more than £400 per person a gig. You might like to, but that's another thing. Even if you only get 80 people in, you're still on £150+ a head.It's a living.
So, I'm totally in favour of acoustic gigs(really acoustic that is). Anybody got any new thoughts?(this is an old thread)

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 06:07 PM

My son's band, A Beautiful Noise, recently began to experiment with more acoustic performances of their songs. If audience reaction is any gauge, it seems to be working in their favor, especially in smaller venues. In bigger ones, they have to use mikes to overcome the ambient noise; you know, bottles crashing, bartenders yelling, comely maids protesting and the like. The only downside to date is that I can't get my Taylor back from him.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 08:36 PM

I guess the most extreme perversion of "acoustic" I've encountered is at the Philadelphia Folk Festival, where non-electric instruments are played and singers perform on a stage that's so far removed from the audience that they not only need amplification to be heard, but require larger-than life TV screens to be seen.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 06:52 AM

Great thread.

As a performer, I really like being able to turn up, not to have to do sound checks, argue about levels in the monitors and worry about the sound checks running into the performance time, especially if you are low down in the billing, you might just get shoved on and told "we'll balance you as you play". It costs too. After spending lots of money on quality instruments, you then have to spend plenty more to make sure you have the right pickup and the right pre-amp/eq system to get the "natural" sound of the instrument, even then, you are at the mercy of the sound engineer. Also, I think playing acoustically makes you sensitive to what is going on around you, altering what you play and how you play it to make sure that you have a good balance with your colleagues.

As a member of an audience, I hate the performance starting late due to complications, the time eaten between acts adjusting the mics and doing yet another sound check, because things have changed (including the acoustics of the venue now that it is packed with people). I also hate having to put up with the prejudices of the sound engineer, the eq they use, volumes and effects, especially if the engineer in question is not familiar with the genre or the act.

Yep I still like to listen to electric stuff, but I like the simplicity and nuances that come with doing it without a PA.

Incidentally, Mawkin were playing at a festival, Sidmouth I think, where the power went off. They got off stage and went and sat right in front of the audience. They made quite a few friends and enhanced their reputation.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,Acorn4
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 07:07 AM

Agreeing with the last posted message- I much prefer to perform without PA if given the choice -I think a mike can put a barrier between you and the audience - some clubs insist on using PA, when it isn't really necessary- it's daft in a showbox of a room where you only have a handful of audience - only when it's a huge room or there's a noisy crowd would i prefer a PA system.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,Cliff
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 07:24 AM

We have a local pub that offers different music styles on different weeks!
1st Sunday of month - folk club
2nd Sunday of month - blues night
3rd Sunday - ACOUSTIC night - 'just bring your instrument & plug in'.

Always makes me laugh!

Problem is, when talking to other singers / players etc. they dont see the conflict with the statement until its pointed out.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 10:00 AM

There are always the exceptions that prove the rule. For instance...

Tenor banjos are acoustic instruments that must be plugged into an amplifier in order to turn down their volume.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 10:14 AM

It could be that I am influenced in favour of playing acoustically, by the fact that I do indeed play tenor banjo!

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 03:47 PM

Has anybody written a song called, Turnham Green, incidentally?

Not called that,but there is this by Mark Knopfler:

Turnham Green, Turnham Green
You took me high
As I've ever been
Now it's all gone
And now I'm clean
Junkie doll, I was stuck on you
My junkie doll

(For the rest of it see here.)

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 04:16 PM

At the pub where I play, we have an open mic night in the middle of the month and an acoustic culture night at the end of the month. The acoustic night means just that - no amps, no speakers, no mics. Mudcatter Rockhen feels hard done to because, whereas the guitar players use the same instruments but without the leads, she has to leave her digital piano at home and switch to an accordion.

DC

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 12:05 PM

This is one of those problems for which there is probably no solution, but it invites 'catters to comment endlessly, which is what we do best.

Greg had a point, when he opened this thread, even if he did bash librarians. (Hey, pal, you wanna step outside??)

I wish librarians did write more of the stuff I have to sit through at the monthly open mike I attend. 24 time slots and on a good night, six performers that I really enjoy, admire, and/or learn from.

I know the drill. The dude with the pork pie hat and the gold chains gets up and says, "Here's a folk song I wrote last week." All too often, we are then screamed at, rather than sung to; treated to four repetitions of the chorus; and/or drawn into some Gothically dark "slice of life" thing you expect to find on L&O/Criminal Intent rather than in folk music. Yeah, yeah--Tom Dooley had a dark side; but it didn't come with the eff word and it didn't describe every perversion in detail. My schtick is, "Here's a folk song somebody way better than me at composition wrote 200 years ago, so refrain from ordering espresso for three minutes and maybe you can hear it."

I have to say this about the "unplugged" thing though. I have put pickups in or on all of the six or eight kinds of folk instruments I own. Am I unfaithful to tradition? Maybe, but it's a matter of self defense. The O.M. I attend most often draws a very, very polite audience and most of the time you can hear a pin drop in the place during performances, but the cold fact is that you can't hear nylon stringed guitars or lap dulcimers or what-have-you from the most distant seats in this modest-sized hall, so watchagonnado?

As to the vanity of trying to discuss what "folk" is, picture this: A group of us were doing a historic gig at one of the Missions--for you UK folks, I'm talking about the Spanish churches that were built around 1800. We were in period dress and doing the best we could to confine ourselves to early 1800s material. John Q. Public with the gold chains, bottle tan and open-necked shirt swishes up to us and wants to hear "Girl from Ipanema." Yeah, right; you really get the point of all this.

As I said to begin with, I see no solution, but it's nice to be able to vent among like-minded venters, even if Doug C. did use the words "culture" and "accordion" in the same paragraph.

Now I'd better leave before I'm asked to step outside. :)

Chicken Charlie

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 12:41 PM

I remember guitarist John James saying that the "acoustic" in "acoustic guitar" means "if you drop it, it breaks"! I, also, recall veteran pop singer Joe Brown saying that he once arrived early at a club he was playing at, and asked one of the staff what the acoustics were like in the place. " We've had traps out for them all week, and we can't catch the buggers", was the reply, he received.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 01:21 PM

I play an acoustic guitar unplugged, and where appropriate plugged into an acoustic amp, and I play and sing folk songs; I'm obviously very confused...... can't expect to get bookings in most folk clubs I suppose.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,Guest Tim
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 01:51 PM

Have several times been so fed up with what the PA guy thinks my guitar should sound like,I have moved off the performance area to the front of the audience and annoyed them from there.
The PA can be great but is more often a pain.
Sound enhancement is what makes the music louder but does not alter it in any other way.
And as for the PA jockey who cant leave the bloody gain alone and turns you up for the quiet bitsss.
Grrrrrr

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 06:11 PM

if you're a poet, its a word that rhymes with 'a Pooh stick'.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Rockhen
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 06:43 PM

As Doug Chadwick, (who has never upset me or been anything other than a smashing bloke,) said, acoustic when it is used for an acoustic night, where I go to play music, means no electric...well, they leave the lights on...and NO PIANO because they don't have one....er....not that it is something that I feel very GRUMPY about or anything, because my electric piano OF COURSE won't work without electricity....not that I am complaining or feeling hard done by or anything ...I can of course take my piano accordion, which I cannot play in the same style whatsoever :-(

Oh, and open mic nights, when I go, mean you may take the same acoustic instruments...and plug them in or play them into a mic...
oh yes, THEN I can take my electric piano :-)    Hmmmm I wonder if other piano players have the same feelings as I do about being unfortunate enough to play more or less the only instrument too big to cart along without a small truck and 3 or 4 very strong people to wheel it into a venue. Ok Ok a bit off the thread, sorry, folks, just ignore me, just a separate rant for another thread probably! :-)

Hey WLD, your poetry still is tops! :-)

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 08:06 PM

why thankyou kindly!

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 08:52 PM

I recall one 'Folk Festival' where there HAD to be Amplification for Main Stage , and the Sound Man was NOT (In the Irish sense) Sound .
Martin Carthy on , Solo , with Vocal Mic and DI'd Guitar ! The 'Sound Man' was working overtime , the result being a completely flat output from the Speakers ! At one point , with Martin doing an Unaccompanied song , there was total silence from the speakers for about fifteen seconds . NOT GOOD !!!

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: reggie miles
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 01:12 AM

I seen the new trend in acoustic guitars being outfitted with onboard electronics and how many now use them at every open stage I attend. Nowadays, the sound man doesn't know what to do with a guy like me that doesn't want to plug in. I like the way my instruments sound acoustically and when I hear them otherwise it throws me off when I'm on stage.

I do have my homnemade resophonic outfitted with a pickup but it does little to reflect what the guitar actually sounds like acoustically and I've rarely used it in the last 15 years. If I have to get really loud, and that's not often, I've used both a mic and I've plugged in and blended the signal. If I had my druthers, I'd only play acoustically but I can't think of any venues locally that support those kinds of performances.

Many open mics around here refer to themselves as acoustic but the first thing that the majority of the players do when they walk up on stage is look around for the cord that they're going to plug in to their guitars. I've become the dinosaur, the antique that doesn't plug my guitars in and my sound on stage suffers because of this choice. Sound guys today generally are unaccustomed to trying to dail in an acoustic instrument because most everyone who says they play acoustically are actually playing plugged in acoustic instruments, instruments with pickups.

Greg, I understand your frustration about the confusion of the language being used but it's at least partially due to the new inbred instruments that now dominate the market, that look acoustic but are in fact fully wired, like most any other electric guitar, to be able to plug into an amplifier or PA system. I suppose the trend itself is driven by the fact that the whole idea has really been a boon to all the dealers out there. Those same dealers, that used to market electric gear to only elctric bands now have 'acoustic amps', 'acoustic pickups' etc. Acoustic amp? Isn't that an oxymoron?

The issue here really doesn't matter to the retailers or the manufacturers of the stuff they market. They've had a field day designing things to appeal to the new 'acoustic' market and have been raking in huge profits with each new toy they invent. Have you seen the price differences between electric amps for electric guitars verses those acoustic amps, supposedly made specifically for acoustic guiatrs that can be plugged in? It's insane!

They even have a guitar that looks acoustic but is incapable of playing as a normal acoustic guitar or sounding at all like an acoustic. So, the geeks have built an onboard digital emulator into the thing to allow the guitar to sound like a variety of other instruments. I bit the bullet and felt sorry for the poor clerk and tried it out. Even the acoustic guitar emulator sounded lame! I guess if acoustic guitar makers made guitars that sounded better they wouldn't need to enhance them with all those fancy electronics.

So, yes, I do share some of your frustrated head scratching at the latest trends and find myself increasingly in the minority when it comes to actually performing without the aid of a pickup. I play acoustically on the street in our local market because they don't allow amps there. There is a god.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 04:16 AM

'They even have a guitar that looks acoustic but is incapable of playing as a normal acoustic guitar or sounding at all like an acoustic. So, the geeks have built an onboard digital emulator into the thing to allow the guitar to sound like a variety of other instruments. I bit the bullet and felt sorry for the poor clerk and tried it out. Even the acoustic guitar emulator sounded lame! I guess if acoustic guitar makers made guitars that sounded better they wouldn't need to enhance them with all those fancy electronics.'

I think what you are talking about is the line 6 variax. which is a godsend to anybody who doesn't have the meek respectful audiences that folk clubs, folk festivals and the like provide you with. Get the right amp - AER is a good combination - and the variax will deliver a good acoustic sound through the speakers - certainly better than plonking a mike in front of an acoustic. also it doesn't feed back - even at high volume.

If you are using the PA system - you're dependant on some wally at the desk anyway - most of whom ain't got a clue. One time I capoed two - and somehow the whole of guitar sound was gated out. Much better have a big noise, and nail the bastatrds to the wall till their ears bleed if necessary. More power!

You re right about one thing - the sales assistants of England have no idea, even five years on, how to demo the variax. lets face it - getting the sellotape off the box is a logistical challenge for most of 'em!

There is a good review of the variax in this months acoustic magazine. the reviewer initially hates it, and then all of a sudden he gets it. This is the guitar for a guy gigging in a ford fiesta. quite right - I used to have two mackie 450 speakers - nearly a killowatt of power, and still my guitar was virtually inaudible in some noisy pubs (I'm a picker, not a basher) - thats even with a damn good yamaha transducer system. With the variax and I'd have volume to spare with a 250 watt fender passport system.

It might look like the devil - but give the variax its due!

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 05:34 AM

weelittledrummer

Much better have a big noise, and nail the bastatrds to the wall till their ears bleed if necessary. More power!

Somehow, this isn't a definition of "folk" that I can identify with.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,Guest Tim
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 05:47 AM

Sorry this is the endless arguement about what is accoustic,Deffinition of folk is on 400 threads and a life time of bitterness and rejection elswhere

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 07:39 AM

I wasn't really talking about folk. i was talking about getting an acoustic sound in a very noisy pub.

Jerry Garcia once said either you eat the room, or the room eats you. I'm afraid these are the sad facts of life for professional musicians.

Rule one: be heard or you won't get paid.

the instrument that this gentleman was decrying will be a major help to folk musicians and will help folk music exist in venues where previously it couldn't. Perhaps I could have chosen my words better. Doubtless I am red in claw from too many lost campaigns to take acoustic music out of the folk clubs. I apologise if I hurt your sensibilities - but I beg you to take my comments seriously.

Some of the greatest guitarists who ever existed have had to earn their livings in places full of noisy ignorant people who couldn't shut up without surgical procedure. I think the modelling acoustic guitar sounds offers a new era of acoustic guitar playing. cheer up - technology is on our side!

the young kids that come after us won't have to retire hurt from the arena, like say Django Rheinhardt did.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 08:02 AM

My advice is get yourself something like a Marshall AS 100 and take it with you wherever you go - if necessary plug it into the house system and tell the soundman to take the evening off.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 08:35 AM

You can go louder with a variax and a smaller amp. and also there is a simulated compression knob. Honest if that's how the bread an butter get on the table - that's the way to go.

Don't worry Lowden, I've tried the lot. i was that idiot.

Subject: RE: The meaning of 'acoustic'
From: GUEST,Rich
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 08:53 AM

I run a little night in a small local pub, and I advertise it as a folk/ acoustic singaround. I do this so as not to discourage people who may play self penned or classic singer/songwriter stuff who might be nervous about coming to a folk night, but I want to encourage folk singers and players because that is my main interest.

We seem to get reasonable mix of music and styles but whether it is due to this I don't know. We don't use amplification.

Midchuck et al regarding considerate listeners; I think it is just to do with whether people are considerate and polite, as opposed to whether they are young or old. In these sessions the people I most often have to ask to be quiet are generally older as opposed to the younger people there, but I don't draw the conclusion that old people don't know how to shut up.

There are folk festivals and concerts that have a very large very-young element who do know how to 'shut up'. Which is no different to the people who 'were young' in the 60s and 70s who could do the same, when there was also plenty of amplififed music around. It is very easy to slip into a prejudiced opinion, maybe without even realising it. Just because you have come across inconsiderate young people, does not mean all young people are inconsiderate.

Sorry for the thread (re)drift.