BS: A safe haven for terrorists?

Subject: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:01 PM

I am always surprised to hear the U.S. government accuse Canada of having lax immigration laws that allow terrorists to find a safe haven in Canada. Apparently they feel that the so-called terrorists in Canada threaten the security of the U.S. so they have to seal the borders and teach our government how to spy on its citizens.

I have always thought that these accusations are overblown and an attempt to cover the incompetence of the U.S. government. In other words, the best defense is to deflect blame.

I found that Canada has arrested and charged at least five terrorists in Canada (two White Supremists and three Muslim extremists). I could find very few statistics related to U.S. arrests of terrorists. The U.S. seems to focus on worldwide terrorism (in other words, minding everybodies business but their own).

I did find this, however:

http://wits.nctc.gov/

According to this source, the ratio of terrorist acts is 2:14, Canada being the 2 and the U.S. being the 14. I'm sure there are better statistics out there. Feel free to post what you might find.

So - Why is the rate of terrorism higher in the U.S. but actual arrests are lower? Why does the U.S. have such a high rate of kidnappings of U.S. citizens by terrorists outside of the U.S?

Some may say that it is because there are very few terrorists in the U.S. while others may say that U.S. policy is creating acts of terrorism and that the U.S. actually harbour the terrorists (911). Its obvious to me that terrorists exist within the U.S. but that law enforcement is not very good at catching them.

I'm scratching my head? Help me figure this one out. Who has more acts of terrorism and who convicts more terrorists - U.S. or Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:06 PM

Exactly. I with you on this dianavan ... I have given up wondering and now accept the fact that the U.S. is in one sorry state of being.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:11 PM

It's not too difficult to figure out dianavan. The U. S. has a president and an administration that recognizes the seriousness of terrorisism and is willing to take whatever steps as are necessary to safeguard U. S. citizens. Simple really.

Now that you have a PM with some cojones (at least it appears to me that he has) perhaps Canada will do more to protect it's border and tighten up it's immigration policies.

I certainly hope so anyway because it's not too difficult to enter the U. S. from Canada. In Arizona we are invaded annually when the weather is nice by hordes of Canadians. It's good for our economy and we welcome it. Terrorists, however, are frowned on.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:13 PM

And number 6: if you do not presently reside in Canada, why don't you avail yourself of the opportunity? I can't imagine that you would not be welcome there.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:15 PM

I am a Canadian Dougie ... and proud of it. Not for nationalities sake, but for belonging to a community of people who can still retain some common sense, humanity and intelligence.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:22 PM

Hmmmm. Yes, I agree. I think you are in the right place Sixie.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:27 PM

And so are you, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:27 PM

Thank you ... I'm pleased you are happy where you are.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: Metchosin
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:37 PM

Actually DougR, relatively recently and during peacetime, as a response to terrorism, Canada has been known to invoke the War Measures Act that temporarily suspended civil liberties in this country.   IMO, such draconian measures, to basically round up 25 people, demonstrates that Canada does indeed take a very dim view of terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:49 PM

Yes Metchosin ... that was back in 1970. It was a dark time in Canada's hsitory. Canadians have not forgotten and preventing (I hope) a repeat.

Back then we did not pick suspects off of the street, fly them to some other country to be tortured.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 03:08 PM

"Why does the U.S. have such a high rate of kidnappings of U.S. citizens by terrorists outside of the U.S? "

That's a disingenuous question if ever I heard one. The simple, self-evident answer is that the US has made itself unpopular all over the world and its citizens - and its militarty - are to be found all over the world, including hot spots, therefore available for protest, abduction and bombing. Canada, having a much smaller population and with a much 'nicer' reputation is not nearly as visible around the world and not as disrespected, not to say feared.

However, I feel somewhat disillusioned, regarding Canada and Canadians. I have come to believe that the ONLY reason that Canadians are 'nicer' is that they have much less power. Give Canada power and it would be as thoughtless, headstrong and oblivious as any.

So bite your tongue and mind your step. What goes around...

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 03:37 PM

Power isn't as Canadians important to us Ebbie.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 04:14 PM

I don't know about Canada being a safe haven for terrorists. News of the past week seems to contradict this. But, there is a well entrenched conservative Muslim system in Canada which could be seen as a terrorist enabler. I'm not sure the same couldn't exist in the United States, nor am I sure that much can be done about it in the republican and constitutional societies we enjoy.

It's an age old paradox. How do you maintain a free society when there are forces which will take advantage of that very freedom to organize against it?

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 04:14 PM

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: Metchosin
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 04:34 PM

The odd thing is that the only ones who vehemently protested the suspension of our civil liberties and Canada's jackboot over reaction then, were from the "lefty" side here that seems to get up DougR's nose.

Canada has never been really nice if you dig deeply enough, Ebbie and we have quite willingly played good cop to America's bad cop on many occasions.

Canadians are far more willing to relinquish their rights to maintain what they perceive as good order than Americans ever appear to be.

Come to think of it, in a lot of ways, when it comes to what really goes on behind the scenes Canada is better at hiding it than the US too. Be very thankful Canada doesn't seek power.

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 04:37 PM

Ebbie said : " I have come to believe that the ONLY reason that Canadians are 'nicer' is that they have much less power. Give Canada power and it would be as thoughtless, headstrong and oblivious as any."

Nay, lass. We had the power. Real power. We used to speak to true values. Common values. We were respected because we did so. That was real power. Now, Harper, pissant suckup to GWB has tarnished that power. We may never regain it.

The rich subjugate the poor. When Trudeau passed, we joined that mentality, to an extent. If we don't get back to our values soon, they may be lost forever.

And, it ain't just us...

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 04:51 PM

I understand that the USA has given safe haven to numerous terrorists especially terrorists groups operating currently or in the past against Cuba.These groups have hijacked planes,attacked embassies and committed other serious acts of terrorism yet appear to be shielded by the US administration.Why is that?
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 05:05 PM

You'd probably have to ask about the particular cases, ifor. Context is everything in political decisions, it seems.


A

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 06:16 PM

The reason more terrorist acts are perpetrated on (and in) the USA than in Canada is because the USA terrorizes more people than Canada does. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 06:39 PM

Douggie: love him, or leave him.

( The latter option is preferred by most thinking individuals.)

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 12:34 AM

C'mon Doug, you can do better than that. Let me make it very simple for you.

Can you please tell me how many terrorists live in Canada and how many live in the U.S.?

I would also like to know how terrorists have been convicted in Canada and how many have been convicted in the U.S.

If you don't have the answer, then shut up with the talk about terrorists crossing into the U.S. from Canada.

As far as co-operating with the U.S., the Arar case is enough to make any Canadian shudder.

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: GUEST,Anthony
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 08:09 PM

What is the death rate in Gitmo?

Only 3 people have died there that I know of. Sounds like a safe place for terrorists and everything's free.

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:50 PM

"And, it ain't just us... "

'Just Us'. n, Spelling common in USA for English concept of 'Justice'

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:54 PM

"What is the death rate in Gitmo?"

"You'll never never know, if you never never Go!"
(An Aussie advertising punchline for visiting The Northern Territory!)


"Only 3 people have died there that I know of."

They mostly kick them them to death elsewhere, these days...

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:38 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 03:07 PM

A cuban exile Luis Posada Carriles has been frequently accused of attempted assassination and other serious criminal activities but has been allowed to remain free in the US.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: Willie-O
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:51 PM

Don't know where you got your arrest figures from Dianavan, they're sure not accurate. We pretty much have a habit of arresting people who commit or conspire to commit violent crimes against other people, which includes politically-motivated terrorism. The figures, especially since last week (17 co-conspirators), are at least in the dozens over the past decade.

Preferably before they hurt anyone.

However we have had at least one horrendous failure and it didn't involve Moslems or white supremacists. The Air India bombing in 1985, which killed 329 innocent people, mostly Canadian citizens, was a crime committed on Canadian soil, by (apparently) Sikh extremists. (The bomb was planted in Vancouver; the plane blew up off the coast of Ireland) It's a tragic event that we're still trying to come to grips with; only one person was ever successfully prosecuted for involvement and he got a very light sentence in exchange for co-operation which turned out to be of very dubious value to the case against the accused ringleaders, who were acquitted last year.   

Comparisons with the U.S. aren't very valid really. We're a different society with a different cultural mix and our own strengths and weaknesses.

Just trying to strike a reasonable balance between security safeguards and the open, tolerant society we are trying to protect.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: A safe haven for terrorists?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:59 PM

Luis Posada Carriles (born February 15, 1928) is an anti-Castro and anti-Communist fugitive who is known to have been involved in numerous violent terrorist plots, including hotel bombings and the 1976 bombing of a Cubana Flight 455 in which seventy-three people were killed. He is also known to have been involved in Operation Condor, namely in Orlando Letelier's murder in Washington, D.C., a few weeks before Cubana de Aviación's explosion. Posada has lived in Venezuela, where he became a naturalized citizen and served in its political police; and the United States, where he served in the U.S. Army and developed a relationship with the CIA.

In April 2005, Posada sought political asylum in the United States. Venezuela, where he had broken out of prison, has formally requested Posada's extradition,[1] as has Cuba [2]. A Department of Homeland Security judge ruled that he cannot be deported because of alleged threat of torture in Venezuela [3]. According to Cuba's official newspaper on March 22, 2006, the US Immigration and Custorms Enforcement (ICE) informed Posada that he would continue to be detained on the grounds that he continues "to present a danger to the community and a flight risk" and claimed that he has "a history of engaging in criminal activity, associating with individuals involved in criminal activity, and participating in violent acts that indicate a disregard for the safety of the general public".[4] With Guillermo Novo Sampoll, Orlando Bosch and Gaspar Jiménez Escobedo, he founded the Coordination of United Revolutionary Organizations.