Saxophone

Subject: Saxophone
From: Mooh
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 08:18 PM

Sitting here listening to my youngest practice for her playing exam, and thinking how cool it sounds, even the scales. What a great sounding instrument! Makes me wonder for a moment if teaching sax wouldn't be more cool than guitar, except I don't want to learn yet another instrument. One of my bands has a sax player too, and he's the consumate pro, a real Mr. Cool, who plays brilliantly every time.

I wonder if the electric guitar is the new sax, meaning if it wasn't for electric guitars, would the sax be it?

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 08:24 PM

Well - I know that whenever a movie or TV show has a scene with sex in it there are only two instruments that seem to get featured. Sax and the guitar. And what could be more cool then sex and music ?

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: Mooh
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 07:39 AM

Wesley...Quite right. Seductive in so many ways.

My kid will be signing a school sax out for the summer as she wants to make the stage band in the fall. Wish I could afford to buy one for her. Brass is so expensive.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: breezy
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 08:21 AM

as long as he doesnt come busking near a guitarist playing acoustic !!

its a great instrument to have in reserve, but in qualitive doses.

See Chris Flegg who has learned the sax in his mid 50s and is already a long established accomplished jazz/folk guitrist

his recent albums feature a 'tasteful dash of sax'

hear the intro to Another Child in Africa from his web site

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 08:39 AM

Since saxophones typically come in Bb or Eb (i.e. when they play a C scale it sounds a Bb or Eb scale) to play with bluegrassers in D the Eb saxist must add 7 flats, while the Bb saxist adds 6 sharps. Few beginners pick up the ability to do that comfortably, since nobody's invented a saxophone capo and you can't just slide up a fret to change keys. It means moving at least one additional key button, and in some cases up to 3 extra ones, for nearly every note played.

It's not really all that difficult once you get the feel of it; but doing it fluently takes real effort at first, and even afer getting fairly comfortable with it I wouldn't want to try going into the top of the third octave or anywhere in the fourth on the sax in that kind of music.

But the instrument can make really mellow music.

John

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: Bassic
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 09:11 AM

I too have recently been seduced by the sax. My partner (RC) aquired a "C Melody" (C Tenor) sax just before Christmas and I found it so easy to get started on just from my basic knowlege of Whistle and Recorder playing. And its in the right key for playing with trad instruments without loads of accidentals or transposing. The only ones available are now vintage instruments (1920`s) but they can be found in abundence in the US and with a bit of research, there plenty of woodwind technicians to be found who will do a refeurb to bring these hand made instruments back to playing order. I love their sound and now have 3 "C Mels" in various stages of refurbishment. Looking forward to getting them fully functional so I can start learning propperly. Go on Mooh.........take the plunge and get yourself one......I bet you will love it! :-).

G

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: GUEST,Fleggy
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 09:12 AM

I agree that keys can be a problem for anyone thinking of playing sax with folk musicians; George Papavgeris asked me to play some "sleasy sax" on his For my next trick album, the track was in B minor putting the sax into Csharp minor
But if you are working with a guitar player you can ask the to shift the capo to a better key, just one fret makes a lot of difference

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: GUEST,mack/misophist
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 10:31 AM

The C Melody sax is capable of beautiful, resonant tones. Unfortunately, the standard intonation sounds more like a Renault in heat, Take care.

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 10:50 AM

I think Andy Statman plays bluegrass sax on one of David Brombergs albums.

Mooh said,"I wonder if the electric guitar is the new sax?"
I recall reading in a Leonard Feather book a quote from a piano player who, walking into a club and hearing Charlie Christian play electric guitar for the first time, thought it was a distorted sax she was hearing.

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: dwditty
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:04 AM

I gig regularly with a sax player....acoustic guitar, vocals, and sax. When we entered a local blues contest here, we got some strange looks, but after we had lots of compliments about how well it works. This is due to the fact that the sax player, Kenny Mack, is phenomenal! He understands that fingerstyle blues, tom waits, randy newman stuff works best with that breathy, sultry, sax sound.

dw

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: Bassic
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:22 AM

Mack, I have heard that comment about C Melodies being out of tune before. The advice I have from the C Melody experts is that this is an undeserved reputation. They tell me it came about due to unmaintained instruments being dug out of attics and the back of grandads wardrobe after 40 or 50 years of being unplayed and unmaintained ........ its not therefore surprising that they were somewhat difficult to play tune!

A C melody should be no more likely out of tune with other instruments or itself than any other Sax of the same period if properly refurbished. The instrument were almost all craftsman manufactured by Beuscher, Martin, Conn or King. They made the best sax`s in the world at the time.

I recently loaned the best of my 3 sax`s to a professional Sax player who then sat in on a jazz session that we were attending along with two other good players on modern Sax`s. The sound he produced from my far from fully refurbished instrument just blew the other Saxes off the stage with its power, tone and presence. Yes, he used a modern mouthpiece (Most c mel players do) but it showed up the real quality and of these instruments for all to hear. And it was perfectly in tune as well.

I agree about the over heating Renault though........resemble a "bag of nails" don't they ;-).

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: Mooh
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:36 AM

I've had the privilege of playing with 3 great sax players in the last year, two are father and son from a family of pros who have toured extensively as hired guns, and there are other sons on trumpet and drums who have done the same. (Except in three rare cases, we only get one at a time...those rare times were magic!) They are all so good it's crazy, but the sax players are so cool they can do almost anything with the instrument. It's so nice to be a not just a guitar-centric band.

I'm not slagging the guitar...I make my living with it...but the sax is a guitar in many ways (or vice versa).

Never heard of the C melody sax, but I'll ask our guys about it now.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: Bassic
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 12:37 PM

I can guarentee one of three answers Mooh if you ask them. They will either love them and be looking to get a good one. Hate them with a fervent passion (they arouse strong reactions in the Eb Bb sax orientated world) or, just as likely, they have never seen or heard of them. It will be intersting to find out which "camp" they fall into.

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: breezy
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 01:45 PM

Fleggy, get back to work on your next T

C#m et al

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: number 6
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 03:53 PM

One thing I regret in life was selling my 1957 Selmer (Paris) alto. It was a beautiful instrument, but I never could get into it, with soul. But, intruments are to be played, and with soul... so all in all, that sax is much better off now.

sIx

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 04:49 PM

The saxophone is something of an oddity among instruments, since it was designed "from scratch" to produce its musical sounds. When Adolphe started, the 'rithmetic was reasonably well known so he could predict in advance what kinds of noises his new device would make.

The rather large diameter of the bore, and the conical taper, make it produce "overtones" (harmonics) that are, at least theoretically, at pure enharmonic intervals with the note being played. It's the very accurate and even placement of the overtones that are responsible for the "velvety smooth" tone when the sax is played so as to emphasize them.

Most of the vaguely similar instruments evolved from "open finger holes" by addition of keypads and levers to extend the capabilities of the starting instrument (exept the pennywhistle, which has thus far failed to evolve much ;>)). When you open a small hole in a long tube, there's an "edge effect" that causes the acoustic length to be slightly longer than the physical length of the air column between the mouthpiece and the hole. The length of the edge effect depends on the frequency of the sound and on the details of the hole, so the second harmonic of the note you're playing has a different natural "edge distance" than the note itself, and for a simple tube with tiny holes, the "octave note" cannot be made exactly in "just relationship" with the fundamental. Higher harmonics are "stressed" even more out of tune.

With the saxophone, the large pads were intentionally incorporated to minimize the fingerhole edge effect, and compared to other similar instruments, the finger holes are ENORMOUS. This was on purpose so that the "velvet tone" would continue to be there when you played on up the scales.

It's not clear whether it was intentional on the part of the inventor, but the very large diameter for the saxophone's bore length relative to its length makes the air column "quite flexible." With proper lip control (and a few other manipulations internal to the player) the sax's note can be pulled in either direction from the natural pitch. A good player should be able to "droop" most notes by a semitone, or "bend" them up by about a quarter tone. Beginners quite frequently aren't aware of how often they use this effect unintentionally and are playing out of tune. The flexibility of the instrument means that you have to play in tune on purpose, and expecially as a beginner you should strive to do so, so as not to give the instrument an undeserved bad rep. The effect can be used very effectively by competent players to apply "nuance" to the tune. It's used (hopefully on purpose) quite a lot by blues, swing, and jazz saxophonists.

John

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 04:53 PM

I apparently dropped a "/" above.

As it bears repeating, the last bit should have been:

Beginners quite frequently aren't aware of how often they use this effect unintentionally and are playing out of tune. The flexibility of the instrument means that you have to play in tune on purpose, and especially as a beginner you should strive to do so, so as not to give the instrument an undeserved bad rep. The effect can be used very effectively by competent players to apply "nuance" to the tune. It's used (hopefully on purpose) quite a lot by blues, swing, and jazz saxophonists.

John

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: GUEST,Norval
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 12:35 AM

Some clarification is needed to JohnInKansas' first post regarding playing with bluegrassers in the key of D. He says the Eb saxist must add 7 flats. This is the key of Cb which is the same as the key of B or 5 sharps, or 3 more sharps than the bluegrassers are playing. The Bb sax would add 2 sharps (not 6) and play in the key of E.

Look at the circle of fifths and find the concert/piano/bluegrass key. Then move 3 positions clockwise for an Eb instrument or 2 positions clockwise for a Bb instrument to determine the key each instrument would play.

Or take the bluegrass key and count down 3 semi-tones for the Eb sax, or up 2 semi-tones for the Bb sax to find the key each instrument would play in. Like John says "It's not really all that difficult once you get the feel of it." John must have been a tootler in a previous life.

-----

Mooh opened this thread wondering if the electric guitar is the new sax, then partially answered the question later saying "Brass is so expensive." In my area a used student horn costs $700-1000 while a student level guitar with a small amp costs about $200, so affordability is part of the reason for the saxes decline. The rise of Rock and Roll also affected the saxes popularity. A 12 year old acquaintance who played sax in the school band asked for and received a guitar for Christmas. The sax doesn't have the cachet it once possessed. Times and tastes have changed.

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 01:17 AM

Norval -

I'll admit to not being particlularly careful about how I commented on the transpositions, but it's understood that there are lots of ways to make the necessary transpositions. For the Eb instruments, one may borrow the trombonist's sheetmusic, add 3 sharps to the key signature, ignore the bass cleff sign and play it if written on a treble clef. To play in Cb, you play 7 flats. That's enharmonic with playing in B, which means adding 5 sharps instead, but you must also move all of the notes on the score to their proper enharmonic equivalents. Either way works, and either way is incredibly difficult, and about equally so, for inexperienced players of saxophone or other keyed orchestral instruments.

It's largely a matter of whether you're going to notate the piece in the correct key and play from "correct" sheetmusic, whether you're reading from sheetmusic in "a wrong key" and transposing on the fly, or whether you're just "playing what comes out" by ear to match the folk you're playing with. What's "correct" for notation may not be the easiest way to "think a transposition" as one often is required to do when playing with strange (to you) instruments in the mix.

John

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: Bassic
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 04:03 AM

This is a good piece on the C Melody/CTenor

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 04:48 AM

A good piece, Bassic, although there's a little bit of salesmanship there. The enthusiasm shows, and I wouldn't argue with that.

I noticed in particular (without detailed study) his comment on the "common fault where the neck joins the body" and the claim that the "new C melodys" solve this problem. My 1924 Martin Bb tenor (S/N in the 40,000 range) also solved the problem, as did my 1955 King Eb alto. The break in conical form at the mouthpiece can be more severe, but is usually intentional due to the popularity of the "more edgy sounding jazz mouthpieces." These "deviant" mouthpieces were the standard that came with new instruments from around 1930 and into at least the early 60s. In the middle to late '50s, Buescher was the only one I found actually making a mouthpiece in the form that Adolphe specified in the patents (with true conical bore): and you had to special-order that one. I preferred the sound of the Buescher mouthpieces on mine, but others expressed other opinions. (The original form mouthpiece does facilitate playing into the upper half of the third octave and all of the fourth octave; but few players ventured there until more recently.)

John

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: Ernest
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 07:28 AM

A cousin who plays sax once told me that old instruments often sounded better than the new shiny ones - seems to be the same as with guitars, banjos and the like...

And re Bluegrass: have you ever heard the modern jazz/bluegrass fusion played by Bill Evans (the sax-player, not the piano-player) or Bela Fleck and the Flecktones? Really interesting....

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: Saxophone
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 08:08 AM

I seem to remember from some years ago that an internet shop was selling C key Saxes - something about being used in Arabian Music - it may have been "Lark in the Morning" - larkinam.com?