BS: Forced helplessness

Subject: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 12:58 AM

Psychology term. If you run a rat through a maze once and it finds cheese at the end, it'll be happy. But if you never put cheese at the end again, it'll eventually give up running the maze. You can go through the routine of pretending to bait the end of the maze, make the proper sounds, open the gates, but the rat won't even make the attempt after a hundred failures. Forced helplessness. The rat has learned not to try.

This is the principle being used by the terrorists in charge of the U.S. govt and media. They declared this to be the "Summer of Fear," and we now have new terrorism hypes daily on the news. This constant assault of terrorism against you is intended to force you into a state of forced helplessness.

And it seems to be working. When I talk to people about the terrorists in our govt, the universal response is "I can't do anything about it."

But here's something you can do. I do. I make 30 cent videos. CD-Rs. I load them with 5 1/2 hours of video and package them like this:

http://mail.moment.net/~michael/9-11%20videos.jpg

These videos explain the fraud behind Sept 11, 2001 and touch on the reasons the terrorists in control of our govt are dismantling America.

The disc contains the entire documentary "Loose Change," in 3 parts, a couple of short pieces putting 911 into historical context, part 3 of 911 Eyewitness, and the entire documentary "Martial Law, Police State."

I leave these videos in public places where I know they'll be picked up quickly. If I happen to have one in my hand and strike up a conversation with someone, I'll ask if they have a computer with speakers. If they do, I give them a disc.

Whenever I run into the people I know have received a copy of this disc from me, they are furious. Not at me, but at the govt.

You have been bludgeoned into passivity by the gangsters who've seized our govt and media. Fight back.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 01:02 AM

...it's more widely known as "learned helplessness."

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 01:03 AM

Protest is not dead. Go for it, GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 01:04 AM

By the way, that's a printed half-sheet. Printed out on bright yellow paper to get attn. Print out two per page crossways to save money, cut the page in half. Glue a paper sleeve to flyer and glue the sleeve only from the midpoint down, so people will be able to access the top flap of the sleeve, to remove the disc. Let the glue dry overnight before putting in the disc.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 01:05 AM

Yeah, learned helplessness too. I should've mentioned that. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 01:16 AM

THAT is a great idea. I have never bought into the government (official) story on 9-11. Give 'em hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: freda underhill
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 02:23 AM

Here is a link to the website Loose Change

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 08:19 AM

I have my copy...

And thanks, GUEST...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 03:20 PM

It's not protest. It's patriots doing their duty for their country.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 03:34 PM

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

United States Declaration of Independence

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 01:20 PM

Yeah, well, it is a matter of duty. That's why I hand out the discs. But it's not duty to the Declaration of Independence so much as to the Bill of Rights.

There are lots of constitutions in the world, but the U.S. constitution has the Bill of Rights attached to it. And the federal govt is passing so-called laws that violate the Bill of Rights with every word, every punctuation mark of the legislation. It has to stop.

And the way to stop it is to make Americans aware of what happened on Sept 11, 2001. The federal govt carried out the attacks, not the Cavemen of Tora Bora Afghanistan. That's how badly Americans have been brainwashed by the govt-controlled media. Americans believe goat herders with flintlock muskets pulled off the high-tech attacks on those sites.

And it's not a matter of throwing off the govt we have, but of returning to the govt we started out with. It's still a good constitution, but bad people have got ahold of it. We just need to keep our constitutional republic but hold some traitors accountable for what they've done to the country. Especially the ones who carried out Sept 11. Among others, Dick Cheney, Joint Chiefs members Eberhart and Myers, Donald Rumsfeld, coverup commission members Kean, Graham and Goss. That's a good start. The head of the snake. Quick and fair trials followed by executions. Then, like at Nuremberg, sort through as much of the cabal as possible.

And that's not wishful thinking. Such a thing is not only possible, but likely, given enough time. Millions like me are distributing (equivalent of pamphleteering in Tom Paine's day), and even Fox news is begrudgingly having to report on the "911 Truth movement." They treat it like "UFO conspiracy theory" stuff, but they're being forced to talk about it, so word is spreading. The govt's trying to put out fires, but it won't do any good. The gangsters who carried out 9-11 will be tried and executed, and then America will right itself. And no revolution will be necessary, just the application of constitutional law.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 06:49 AM

Nicely said, Guest,25 Jun 06 - 01:20 PM.

I hope you're right.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST,oh please
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 01:48 PM

"high tech attacks" !?

What's high tech about crashing a vehicle? Killing your own followers in cold blood? Exploiting suicidal people?

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 12:50 AM

There were no "nineteen hijackers." They were shills and patsies. Half of them are still alive and well in their home countries. Verified. Geez. Do some resarch, or at least watch the videos I mentioned. If you can access this board, you can download the films.

And spinning a 757 that's flying 500+ mph in a 230 degree turn while descending 2000 feet in altitude, so you can skim ten feet above the ground to hit the Pentagon is a high tech feat. No professional pilot yet interviewed has claimed he/she is capable of the feat. Yet the "final report" issued by the U.S. govt coverup commission said the maneuver was accomplished by a man who couldn't fly a Cessna. Watch the video Loose Change, Second Edition, to see the man's flight instructor interviewed. He says the man was dangerously incompetent the couple of times he went up in a small plane with a flight school instructor.

And since no pilot on earth can claim to be capable of such a maneuver, it's almost certain it was not achieved by a human. If a plane that large hit the Pentagon (and that's disproven by film of the 16 foot hole left by the impact...16 foot wide hole left by a Boeing Big Boy?), if a plane hit the Pentagon, then it was a small drone craft.

And The Cavemen of Tora Bora weren't capable of switching from flintlock mode to remote jet mode, friend.

Watch the films. The fall of the twin towers (the govt's explanation of the falls at least) defies 3 laws of Newtonian physics. The only way those buildings COULD have fallen was if explosives had been used. The laws of physics didn't just slip for a moment on 9-11.

You'd better inform yourself and take action, or you'll die in one of the forced labor camps ready to go in America (if that's where you live). Look up Rex 84 for the plan Ollie North set up for Reagan. It's still operational, and it's just a matter of time 'til you have to make some serious choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 05:46 PM

I watched the video and am truly baffled at some of the information presented. "We found the black boxes"/"The black boxes were destroyed". Melting point of steel vs. heat of burning fuel. Missing gold. Molten steel found in the basements of three buildings. Warnings from Condi Rice not to fly on 9/11. Unclaimed profits from sales of stock on 9/10. Missing minutes on the black box played for families of victims of the PA crash.Dead hijackers who are not dead...and on and on and on. Explosions throughout the towers. Damage to the reception area that couldn't be caused by the plane crash.
Too much to absorb in one viewing. I need time to see it again and think it through.
The biggest problem to me is where are the passengers on Flight 93? Murdered? Forced to create false calls? Something is very unlikely there.HMMM

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 05:48 PM

Computer trades before opening of business found on surviving hard drives - how does someone keep all those people quiet? Someone would have to develop a conscience. HMMM

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 06:05 PM

War is a truly sordid business. Waged by the rich against the poor. Until that lesson is learned, the rich will continue to wage war and employ the poor to do so.

So sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 07:11 PM

I agree, gnu. But I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that our government in a conspiracy with hundreds in the private sector orchestrated the murder of hundreds of civilians including a huge number of fire fighters.

And if they had, wouldn't the next step have been an immediate and even nuclear followup? The motive is still not quite clear to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 01:44 AM

12,000 people kept the Manhattan Project secret for years. No one outside the project knew until the atom bombs went off in Japan. Govts can keep secrets.

And it wasn't any 12,000 that did the deed on 911. Hundreds, maybe a couple thousand.

And the black boxes were found, by the way. Two were in each plane, and fire fighters said they saw three loaded into trucks and hauled off. Then the media simply tells you they weren't recovered. You must be 'imagining things' if you think otherwise. But the media is owned by the corporate/govt monster and lies to you. It puts your brain to sleep electronically (seriously...fact), and it then uses ever conscious and subconscious technique you've ever read or heard about to feed the govt's line of BS to you.

The TRUTH is the bldgs in NYC defied the laws of physics if they fell the way the govt says they did. The US govt perpetrated 911, the British govt did the subway bombings, the Spanish govt did the Madrid bombings. It's how govts keep us under control, by pretending to "protect" us from outside threats. Oldest call in the playbook.

Waking up to the truth is difficult. Most people go back to sleep the moment they suspect it.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:44 AM

Strange, while watching the live feed here in Aus, there was a guy in Military uniform who said (once - never replayed!) that a helicopter (which you had just seen lifting off) had crashed into the Pentagon...

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Grab
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 09:28 AM

12,000 people kept the Manhattan Project secret for years. No one outside the project knew until the atom bombs went off in Japan.

Actually, everyone knew after the first test explosion in Trinity. That was intended as a warning to the Japanese that the US had the technology. The Japanese ignored the warning. And where did that 12,000 figure come from? You can bet that only a few dozen knew the real score - the rest were just guarding places or moving things around, following orders and not asking questions as your typical enlisted soldier is trained to do. If you check the history of Bletchley Park or other ultra-secret codebreaking places, things were split up into discrete tasks by the guys running the place, so that none of the people actually doing the stuff knew where their info came from or where it went to. The only thing the average enlisted man could tell was that their place was trying to design bombs or break codes, and that's hardly a surprise in wartime.

Back on topic, and the website. The WTC stuff in general, I couldn't say, and I'm at work so watching the vids is out. Although their assertion about the black boxes is bullshit. A little secret of the aircraft industry is that black boxes actually *do* fail fairly often. They're not magic - they're only an expensive tape player. They're encased in something pretty robust and they're given as much shock resistance as possible, but it's certainly to bust them, most easily by giving it enough of a jolt to get through the shock protection and bugger the internals. And as for the comparison with the passport - well, drop a sheet of paper and a large metal object (say, an engine manifold or something equally solid) from the top of a high building and see which one survives the impact best. I'd bet on the passport myself.

But as far as the Flight 93 stuff goes, that's the purest bullshit. I quote from the article linked from that site:-

Investigators crawled through the debris field, bagging bolts and bone fragments. They found chunks of seat cushion foam, and honeycombed sound insulators. Then a shoelace, some shirt buttons, and a wedding ring. Then part of a passport, and a necktie, still knotted.

"The first responders really went through a lot," says Capt. Frank Monaco, commander of state police Troop A at Greensburg and the coordinator of the state's 400-man crash site team.

The work wore on them. "People say, 'Wasn't it horrible?'" Monaco says. "Well, we didn't have time to think about it. We literally ran on adrenaline for two weeks."

Further on in the article, the coroner says he "spent five months and $500,000 and found less than a tenth of the victims' remains."

In other words, the passengers' remains were so mashed and burned, and spread over such an area, it's hardly unlikely that he'd not see a drop of blood. What he'd find would be charred fragments of bone and flesh - and he *does* say that he found plenty of those. Another link from that same site says "He personally identified 12 bodies through fingerprints and teeth. The remaining 32 bodies had to be identified with DNA testing." Presumably he's lying, as were the people doing the DNA analysis?

Sorry, but no.

I did my own "research" (actually I just hit Google ;-) and found this site. Check out http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/refute.htm.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:52 PM

I too have done a bit of net surfing and found very credible explanations for most of the "problems" discussed on the video.
Nothing on Condi Rice warning anyone not to fly on the 11th.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: John O'L
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 09:17 PM

So who do I believe?

The ones who have just started lying to me or the ones who have been lying to me all along?

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 10:04 PM

http://www.public-action.com/911/voice-simulation/index.html

That's how they did the voice morphing for the 'calls to loved ones.'

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 01:05 AM

In June of 2001 control of NORAD was transferred to the Dept of Defense. First time the military organization responsible for protecting American skies had ever been placed under civilian control (first time in its 50+ year history).

On Sept 11 the U.S. military and Dept of Defense were running 4 or maybe 5 "drills" simulating airline hijackings. One of the drills simulated crashing planes into the WTC towers. At the time of those drills, Dick Cheney was the only man in the world who knew which blips on the radar screen were live and which were part of the drills.

Then, Secretary of Transportation Leon Mineta testified before the 9-11 Commission about Cheney's behavior just before the Pentagon was "hit." This was after the planes hit the towers, and everyone in Cheney's bunker knew there was a problem. The aide told Cheney the plane was 50 miles out from Washington. He came back later and said the plane was 30 miles out from Washington. Then he came back and said it was 10 miles out and asked if the order still stood. Cheney said, "Of course the order still stands. Have you heard anything to the contrary?" Secretary Mineta said that. Then the commission said something about, oh you mean the order to shoot down the plane and Mineta (still in a daze) agreed that's what Cheney must have meant.

But NORAD automatically scrambles jets to intercept errant planes, challenge them, then shoot them down if they don't respond acceptably. The interceptor's standing orders. Always have been.

So, from the mouth of the Transportation Secretary himself, we have Dick Cheney admitting he overrode the these standing orders. That's the only possible thing that could have been under discussion, and his aide was stupefied by what was going on.

You or I would have been executed by now for this. But because they controlled the so-called "investigation" into 9-11, these killers are still free. And free to kill again.

Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of these smoking guns. You debunkers can't debunk the truth. The tide is turning. You Vichy punks better change your tune while you still can.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 01:31 AM

http://www.911eyewitness.com/truth/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=39

This guy Hawkins is interesting. A "forensic economist." I heard him interviewed. Talk about confusing. But he had a point that now, almost five years later, this stuff should've been sorted out.

Basically, lots of companies were going bankrupt, New York City was going bankrupt, Lloyds of London, etc. But by setting up a domino payoff scheme, the tragedy in NYC brought many companies back from financial ruin. Mostly through advance knowledge of the event (so people could sell shares of various stocks), and through insurance payoffs. Each firefighter had a 10 million dollar life insurance policy, for example, payable to their Union. So the commanders were told to keep cramming their grunts into the bldgs. The payoff saved the Union.

And Hawkins is right about this being complex but solvable. Hell, it was reported just weeks after 9-11 that the former employer of the # 3 man in the CIA...well, read it yourself.

Associated Press, 9/18/2001; San Francisco Chronicle, 9/19/2001] "To the embarrassment of investigators, it has also [learned] that the firm used to buy many of the 'put' options ... on United Airlines stock was headed until 1998 by 'Buzzy' Krongard, now executive director of the CIA." Krongard was chairman of Alex Brown Inc., which was bought by Deutsche Bank. "His last post before resigning to take his senior role in the CIA was to head Bankers Trust—Alex Brown's private client business, dealing with the accounts and investments of wealthy customers around the world."

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=insiderTrading

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

Since then, Krongard has retired and said it would be bad if Osama bin Laden were caught, because someone worse might replace him. What a guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Grab
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 09:37 AM

So who do I believe? The ones who have just started lying to me or the ones who have been lying to me all along?

John, I don't believe *anyone* who I can prove beyond my doubt is lying to me, especially if the "sources" they're using to "prove" their lies can be read by anyone and easily shown to be utter bullshit.

I don't know how much the US government has lied, but I *do* know for sure that these people are lying to me. Whether Guest has an ulterior motive, or whether he/she has been taken in by their lies, I don't know. But as I said above, it's very easy to prove some of their claims wrong, and as Sinsull said, there are various other sites around the web that are doing a good job of debunking that "truth".

We're also starting to get to ridiculous levels with the number of people complicit in this. All the cabinet and all their aides, and all high-rank officers in the Army and all their aides, goes without saying - that's going to be maybe 400 people. Then there's the state police in PA who picked up the pieces of flight 93 - 400 people. Then there's the coroner and the various DNA sampling labs who established that the bits of flesh and bone came from the flight 93 passengers - maybe another 100. Then there's the army/FBI/CIA groups who planted the bombs - it's going to take several groups, so let's say 100. Then there's every soldier on guard at the Pentagon at that time - say 100. And all the people working in that area of the Pentagon on that day, and all the people who say they extracted plane remnants from the Pentagon - another 200, say. And however many people it took to hold and then murder the passengers on flight 93 - maybe another 100. And all the fire brigade commanders, and all the upper leadership of the firefighters' union - another 100. And then all the companies you claim were involved - at least another 500 by the time you've counted all of the companies up.

I'm sorry, but once a conspiracy theory requires well over 2000 active participants, a majority of whom are average soldiers, policemen, firefighters and bankers/accountants, then we're well into the realms of fantasy.

Remember what they say. "They all laughed at Christopher Columbus. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown". Go figure which category I think you're in.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 12:25 PM

How many complicit people do you think were required in order to conceal from the US voters President Roosevelt's (FDR) inability to walk?

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST,Grab
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 12:50 PM

Carol, in that case we're talking (a) a time in which the private affairs of politicians (and illness would be one of those) were off-limits to reporting; (b) something that isn't a factor in their performance as a politician; (c) something that isn't a major crime involving massive premeditated murder; and (d) something that actually *was* fairly widely known if you'd seen him in the flesh, it just wasn't explicitly pointed out to the newspaper-reading public who hadn't been to see him in person, so if you weren't really interested in him then you wouldn't have found out.

Whereas in this case we have (a) a time in which even minor slips by politicians are well newsworthy, never mind premeditated mass murder; (b) something that would put Bay of Pigs, Cambodia and Watergate right in the shade; (c) premeditated mass murder; and (d) something that not one person in the "conspiracy" has been prepared to talk about.

In other words, the comparison simply doesn't hold, I'm afraid.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 01:53 PM

Television has blinded Americans to the obvious. 19 incompetent flyers did not shut down NORAD and meticulously guide those huge planes to their targets spot-on. That's just common sense. The govt's explanation isn't logical or even possible. The falling towers didn't violate the laws of Newtonian physics. Nothing can violate those laws.   

So if the govt's explanation of events is impossible, then what really happened? It astounds me that so many Americans don't want to know the truth. I guess you non-questioners feel you have too much tied up in the system to ask questions that may lead to the collapse of the system.

On 9-11, Fox News was screaming at you 30 minutes after the second plane hit that it was 1) Ossama bin Laden and 2) he is in Afghanistan. Then they said faulty intelligence led to the "breakdown in communication..." blah blah blah. But if our intelligence was so bad, how could Fox news give us who and where half an hour after the event? I mean, Americans have been blinded to some pretty obvious non sequiters.

Fox is a govt mouthpiece, and it and the other TV networks have led you by the nose through the acceptance of the constitution-killing PATRIOT Act, two illegal wars, MORE constitution-killing legislation, a whole boat-load of legislation intended to surveil you, another boat load intended to destroy families and small govt units...all because you buy the obvious lie that The Cavemen of Tora Bora aimed their flintlocks at New York and the towers fell. What garbage.

Anyway, you old geezers reading this better be worried. The forensic economist I mentioned above (Hawkins) said in the interview I listened to that pension funds are going to be the next big target of the federal govt. Private pension funds. The Bush crime family is going to steal those the same way they stole the S&L money (Neil Bush and S&L...look it up). Hawkins said the govt will tie some local pension fund to "investing" its funds in "al Qaida" or some other terrorist organization, and freeze the funds. So, the people depending on that fund for monthly checks will go without. The case will languish for a year in a federal court, just to set a precedent, then the really big funds will be targeted. Eventually the federal govt will turn on itself and cannibalize its own retirement system in the same way...freeze it for investing in terrorist-related groups. By then all the "homeless" will be in "relocation centers" praising the govt for providing a roof and a job (slave labor). Pretty slick, huh?

So you fence-sitters better ask if you really believe 19 men with box cutters did the deed as the govt has told you. There's more riding on exposing 9-11 than you may have realized.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 02:18 PM

How many complicit people do you think were required in order to conceal from the US voters the Iran/Contra business prior to the cargo plane getting shot down over Nicaragua that brought this covert operation to the attention of the voters? (Imagine what might have happened had the pilot of that plane not violated orders by wearing a parachute... we might never have learned about that one).


I've been reading some of the "debunker's" responses to the questions posed by those who see culpability on the part of the US government for 9/11. I have only read a small handful so far, but of the ones I've seen, the "debunkers" don't really seem to be addressing the really damning questions. Mostly they seem to be side-stepping those questions, and "answering" other questions that really don't shed any light on the issues.

Also, I noticed that some people have provided security camera images as proof of that a Boeing 757 crashed into the Pentagon. And I notice that none of the images actually show a Boeing 757. The "debunkers" are practicing just as much sleight of hand as they are accusing others of doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Grab
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 08:13 PM

Guest, your "cavemen of Tora Bora" spent a couple of decades beating the crap out of the Russians, using every form of weapon from knives and rocks up to SAMs and explosives. They salvaged damaged/abandoned Russian tanks to use against the Russians. Due to a shortage of SAMs, they *invented* the idea of using anti-tank rockets against helicopters (you stand somewhere high and lure the helicopter into the valley, so you can fire down at it). American "advisors" (CIA) helped with training, and supplied various bits of kit like missiles. And you'd have us believe they're a bunch of ignorant savages who haven't advanced past spears and flintlocks? Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with their take on religion, nor with their take on the treatment of women and children. But to dismiss them as "cavemen" is utterly ludicrous.

And maybe you forgot that the guys in the plane were actually from Saudi Arabia. Yes, the same Saudi Arabia that supplies a crapload of oil. Yes, the same one with massive airports, everyone owning a car and consumer gadgets by the zillion. Yes, the one that supplies plenty of the pilots for airlines such as UAE.

Oh, and we've got more people in on the conspiracy now - every TV news station and newspaper. Oh, let's say another round thousand average American civilians, shall we?

Carol: Iran/Contra, probably a fair number of CIA people were complicit. Outside of that, pretty damn few. You certainly didn't have a couple of thousand average firefighters, policemen, journalists and investment bankers in on it! And it's not too difficult to imagine that the CIA guys thought it was all OK - let's face it, the CIA had been working to undermine a whole bunch of countries for years, and nothing they did impacted on any US citizen. And when it all came out, the press crucified the government, did they not?

Pentagon-wise, see http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77.htm. The security cameras certainly do not show the plane on impact, only the fireball of the explosion, which obscures everything else, so you're right that it isn't evidence of a plane hitting. You *can* see that there was nothing next to the building at the time though, which means that either whatever did it managed to cover a pretty serious distance in a very short time, or there was a bomb inside. And as that site points out, focussing on those pictures is conveniently ignoring a whole bunch of eyewitnesses. Plus of course everyone from the military, firefighters, police, medics and forensics who was on the scene.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 10:03 PM

I don't know where you live Graham, but in the U.S. we were actually shown images of bearded men in long robes with flintlocks, standing at the mouths of the caves of Tora Bora, Afghanistan. That is the footage the networks ran. And they told us the men pictured on the screen were Taliban/al Qaida, the people responsible for bringing down the twin towers. Men with flitlock muskets.

Of course, now we know thermate was used to cut the steel at the twin towers. Heck of a lot more sophisticated than flintlocks.

Watch some of the free streaming videos. GWBush told us we were in imminent peril, yet he stalled for 411 days before naming the war criminal Henry Kissinger to head an "investigation." Bush is for open borders, but the first thing you do in a "war" is close your borders. He's demonstrated by action alone we're not in peril. The whole "war" is bogus. He said before he took office he was going to be a war president because no one can question a president domestically during time of war. That's in his authorized biography.

The whole 911 thing was intended to traumatize and stupefy. It's worked. Until now. Isaac Newton wins. The WTC bldgs were blown. And that jetliner wouldn't have left a mere 16-foot hole in the Pentagon (actual size of the hole, recorded on film, before the wall above it collapsed). There is soooooo much evidence.

And it sounds like you've been following this topic for a while CarolC. Good for you. Isn't it amazing how people don't want to know the truth?

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST,Grab
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 06:26 AM

You *are* remembering that what was shown on TV was the promo stuff that al-Qaeda released themselves, aren't you? If you want to get yourself that old-time credibility with your followers, go for the old-time look. But I don't know why you would think that flintlock muskets is all they have. It's entirely public knowledge that the Taleban had tanks, missiles and heavy artillery, and if you didn't know that then you weren't paying attention to international news for the decade before 9/11. And you don't get to use tanks, missiles and heavy artillery effectively if you're a "caveman" whose idea of sophisticated weaponry is a musket, now do you?

I'm from the UK, incidentally. Along with the rest of Europe, we've known about terrorism and attacks from other countries for decades, unlike the US that's only just woken up to the possibility of terrorism. Europeans are also well aware of the possibility of external attack on our countries, whereas the US has never seemed to take it seriously, probably bcos it's never happened for close to two centuries - the last major incursion was the war of 1812.

Of course, now we know thermate was used to cut the steel at the twin towers

You might. The rest of us who need more evidence than mere assertions on a website don't. Just because it's written down, doesn't make it true.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not denying that this has been used by cynical politicians to bolster their own positions. In fact, I know for sure that they've done that, especially GWB (I was over there at the time of the last election, I saw his TV ads). Maggie Thatcher did the same with the Falklands conflict in the early 80s, and it's been a tool in every politician's armoury for centuries.

But to claim that it never happened is pure fantasy.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 08:03 AM

Many years ago, in a Magazine called "Private Eye", I remember seeing pictures of multi-story housing units with massive damage caused by a gas hot water heater 'popping'... Shortcuts in building techniques were responsible.

Similar things (as well as physical damage to a few steel components, massive localised heat application to de-temper steel girders, etc) caused the steel in the Towers to critically fail - the building style was such that 'the chain was only as strong as it's weakest link' syndrome. When enough minor bits in that style of construction fail - that's all she wrote!

With a huge conflagration (which I watched live on TV) burning on floor X, the steel holding up floor X+1 was eventually gonna get VERY hot, and eventually start to weaken, and fail.

Once even one floor was missing most of its support structure, more things were gonna break as the stresses spread! And once it started to go down, even Superman couldn't have held it up.

Done some blacksmithing you know... iron is a wondrous element...


However, just how the bloody hell a wallet in the pocket of a guy in the cockpit at the centre of that damn inferno managed to magically appear undamaged on the top of the wreckage pile certainly puzzles me. Do I believe there was SOME sort of conspiracy? Well...

I was a founding member of 'The Crash Rescue Squad' many years ago, a group of volunteers who turned up to act as Safety Paramedics/Rescue workers (with all the cutting gear, Jaws of Life, etc) at Motor Sporting Meetings for all classes of Sedan Car and Formula One. We were trained in Fire Fighting Techniques too - we thought we had good need to protect ourselves while potentially standing in the middle of a pool of flammable liquid while cutting the driver out - we did live 'hot' training exercises with real burning fuel too - burning fuel (of any type) is not a 'cool thing'... and in that quantity that was on board planes on takeoff on long flights - my dad was a WWII multi-engined pilot... I know how long I watched it burn...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 09:31 AM

Well, Europe is a good case in point for the effectiveness of terrorism. You folks used to have free speech, individual constitutions, etc., but then you woke up one day and were told you now live under a union. The EU. And it was incremental. A response to terrorism here, one there, and suddenly the drachma is gone and you have a Euro Dollar. Oh, and by the way you can no longer deny the holocaust happened or you'll go to prison. Thanks to national govts giving up sovereignty a bit at a time, so their peoples could be protected from terrorist groups. What hogwash. The govts created the terrorist events. A good recent example is the Madrid bombings. That old satanist king Juan Carlos thought he could get away with one more act of barbarity against HIS OWN PEOPLE, but the Spanish saw through it. They knew it was govt-sponsored terrorism on the eve of an election and voted the parties responsible out of office. Beautiful.

And if you need more evidence of thermate being used (the published-for-peer-review paper of a university professor isn't good enough), then why don't you need more evidence that 19 boxcutters led to all that death and destruction? Why do you take the word of a secretive, foot-dragging govt investigative commission composed of proven criminals?

Denial is a tool to preserve sanity, they say, but I wonder. Psychiatry seems to justify a lot that's unjustifiable. Denial seems to BE insanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 11:26 AM

I've had questions I wanted answered for a long time, Guest. There are too many things that either don't add up, or when they are added up, the answer doesn't match the one we are being given.

I would like to see an independent investigation into what happened during the time leading up to 9/11, on the day of 9/11, and in the days and months following 9/11.

And I've always felt that the idea that the US government was in some way complicit in what happened on that day is entirely plausible, and even quite likely. The US government, of all of the possible culprits, had/has the most to gain from an attack such as the one on 9/11.

I don't accept all of the conclusions or even all of the "evidence" given by the people you have been quoting. But I think a good, independent investigation would clear a lot of that kind of thing up.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:40 PM

Sorry - Call me a sheep then - but as bad as this administration is I don't think they could have pulled this off. But then again I also think that Jim Morrison is dead, Oswald acted alone and that we really did land on the moon. And that the earth is round and that Bigfoot doesn't exist.

Conspiracy theories are usually just that - theories.

Guest - are you concerned that this thread exposes you to the government and gives them a way to track you down? Do you expect any retaliation for your efforts? What worries do you have about exposure?

I also believe in free speech and applaud you for your efforts.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 01:03 PM

Wesley, conspiracies are just that... conspiracies. The use of events such as the fabricated Gulf of Tonkin incident in order to justify an illegal war against the people of Vietnam was a conspiracy. When people point out such conspiracies, the people behind them try to paint them as nut cases in order to try to divert attention away from what they are doing.

I tend to suspect that many of the sites that are discussing this topic contain a lot of stuff that has no basis in reality. But that doesn't mean that all of the questions being raised by people who don't believe the 'official' version of events are invalid. You can't paint all of the people asking such questions with the same broad brush.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 01:10 PM

I'm not. I just don't believe the US Government was behind the 9/11 attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 01:41 PM

But it's not the US govt. Not in the Civics Class sense. The Executive Branch has been seized by a gangster family. That was the easiest branch to seize (just two people, Pres and Vice-Pres).

GWBush's grandfather Prescott Bush wanted to overthrow the US govt in 1934 and set up a Hitler-like fascist govt in America. But he and his cronies hired the wrong man to lead the effort. Gen. Smedley Butler. Butler blew the whistle on the traitors.

Ten years later Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker (GW's other grandfather) were pushing for the establishment of a "secret" branch of the govt. That's how we got the CIA. And the CIA has been ruled over since its inception by the Bush family's club of billionaires with its nexus point at Yale's Skull & Bones club. Bush # 1 was head of the CIA for a while.

Skull & Bones carries a whole other bucketful of issues with it, but I bring it up only because 9 of the 17 CIA directors have been Skull & Bonesmen.

So, the US has been seized by a cabal of secretive people whose ancestors did business with Hitler and tried at least once to overthrow the US govt. And now they're doing it again, only this time from the inside.

And can we vote our way out of the problem? You decide. John Kerry was a member of Skull & Bones. And both he and GWBush said on "Meet the Press" they couldn't talk about the club. They swore an oath to the Constitution, but they can't talk about Skull and Bones.

And they're just operatives. Mouthpieces. Their job is to morph America into a third-world dictatorship, and they're doing it. They're just focusing on their decade of the gangster family's hundred year plan, and they know it. And THAT'S what most people can't understand...the patience of these people. They own the media that tells you to buy that new gadget NOW, so how the hell are you going to have a hundred-year outlook?

As far as, whatever was mentioned about exposure, we're ALL exposed. You're going to die in a concentration camp if all goes according to the Kofi Annan/Bush/Queen Saxe-Coburg plan. I couldn't care less what happens to me as long as I know I'm right. I refuse to be part of the lie, and I'd rather die without fear than live like a cringing dog. Besides, these folks have bigger fish to fry right now. They have nations to bring down and pension funds to crash. They're not going to pay much mind to the my mutterings. And if they do, I'll see you in the next life. This is, after all, the land of the free. For a while longer at least. But we'll lose our freedom unless people start speaking out like this. We've been taught to think in polar extremes (bullets or ballots), but there's this middle ground of words. And we'd better use it while we can. If we use it effectively, we'll shake off the gangsters.

End of sermon.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 02:01 PM

But what's the payoff for the gangsters that start this 100 year plan if they aren't around to reap the benefits? Are these generous people that just want to pass down a fascist government to - their grandchildren?

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Grab
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 02:09 PM

So Kofi Annan and all the royal families in Europe are in on it too, are they...?

Screw this, I'm out. Every time I blow one of your bits of "evidence" out the water, you throw some new bit of crazyness at me. I should have realised earlier that it's impossible to reason with someone suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, so I'm going to stop trying.

As the saying goes, "Never mud-wrestle with a pig. You both get covered in shit, but the pig likes it."

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 05:20 PM

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/p/pentagoncrash.htm

Here

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 07:57 PM

Grab:

You are wrong about the Trinity test. It was proof of concept, nothing more. They certainly didn't invite the Japanese over to watch an experiment.

Indeed it was an incredible project. But it was no secret to the Soviets, who knew virtually anything they wanted to know about it.

GUEST:

Sounds like you have listened to a lot of aluminum hat wearing late night AM broadcasting card-carrying nutjobs. OR-
you taped as I did the pilot episode of "Lone Gunmen" which had a government plot to remote fly an airliner into one of the WTC towers!

I'm sure you are also full of information on the government suppression of the Roswell story and details of The Philadelphia Experiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 08:54 PM

http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/toll_roads_its_the_law_feds_pave_way.htm

Yes. The global elite are setting this up for their grandkids. For example, they will inherit the giant U.S. toll road system mentioned in the article above. Completely illegal, yet the gangsters in charge of the govt are going to do it anyway.

The article above talks about how Americans will now be charged tolls to drive on roads we built with our tax money, and that money will go to private organizations and individuals. That's illegal.

This was why the people in charge of the federal govt carried out 9-11...to get Americans fixated on non-extent "terrorists" so crap like this can be pulled out of the hat.

Aren't you Americans mad yet? I mean, LOOK at this article, and then consider how congress is now fast-tracking Line-Item veto for the President. They did that just a few years ago and it was shot down by the Supreme Court because it violates the separation of powers (Congress holds the purse strings, not the President), but now that a single party has seized the all 3 branches of govt, and Americans have been cowed, they're going to give GWBush the power to just scratch through bits of legislation he doesn't want to fund.

That's a dictatorship, folks. You can keep quiet about it if you want, but your kids will die in forced labor camps if you don't do something. Now.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 10:27 PM

"your kids will die in forced labor camps "

That happens now - it's called 'the suburbs'.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 02:45 AM

No. Rex 84. Set up by Ollie North in '84 for Reagan. For the black uprising people kept telling Reagan was coming. Total BS, but it got the camps built. Then they were "decommissioned," according to news reports. But they're still there. And the US govt just sold us out on privte property. The Sup Court ruled in the New London Connecticut case that PRIVATE individuals can now condemn your property if they can increase the tax revenue from it. Puzzling ruling, until you read the article about the superhighways from TX to Duluth. The showdown's coming folks. And they have the cmaps ready.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: John O'L
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 08:31 AM

Interesting article here about Prescott Bush from the New Hampshire Gazette 2003

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: John O'L
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 08:33 AM

Sorry, here.