BS: Forced helplessness

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 04:21 PM

No - but Sand Key {just south of Clearwater beach} was built on a sandbar formed by a hurricane back around 1900 I think. US Steel built several multi-floor condos on that beach even tho they had been warned that there isn't any bedrock under it. The next hurricane could blow it all away - just like the book described. McDonald lived at various times in Clearwater and further south in Sarasota.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 03:58 PM

Wesley S: Did anything as drastic happen in reality as MacDonald so lively envisaged in his (always readable) book?

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 11:25 AM

Condominium - That's right. I used to live pretty close to Sand Key in Florida - I'd always heard that McDonald wrote Condominium about that development. Thanks for the reminder. I've read most of his books but it's been a few years. I'll have to dig that one out again.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 10:52 AM

Wesley S. - The reference I was making re: John D. MacDonald's character's observations on conspiracy whackos was from the book: "Condominium". "The Green Ripper" is one of MacDonald's Travis McGee novels.

Interesting thing about Wolfgang's implicit racism observation. Shortly after 911 there was a rumor spread about that the Israelis did it, this rumor was supported by many Arabs and Arab supporters in the mideast going all the way to the poet laureate of New Jersey, and one of the supporting arguments was that the Arabs weren't up to that kind of organization. (But the spread of that lie, along with serialization for TV of an updated version of "Protocols of the Elders of Zion seems to be within their means).

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:54 PM

I'm not justifying any of his/her conclusions. Only the asking of questions, Hubster.

Just because we think the conclusions are off track doesn't mean we should be ignoring the questions. That doesn't seem the least bit intelligent to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:49 PM

Hey Hubby,

You are not a very good example of what it means to be a Christian. Do you teach your flock in this manner or simply fleece the?

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:44 PM

This "Guest" is about two tacos shy of a Fiesta Platter.

Didya ever hear the saying "the wheel is spinning but the hamster's dead"?


CarolC, with your well stated arguments that you've thrown my way in the past, I'm really surprised to read that you're actually trying to justify some of what this "Guest" is saying.

Hey Guest,

Check with your Doctor. They have drugs that will help with your condition.

Just take your mommy with you when you go to the pharmacy.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:57 PM

Because you don't know how to spell 'believe'.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST,Elvis
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:48 PM

Most people think I am dead but it was just a Government cover up. Why doesn't anybody beleive me?

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 01:14 AM

People have been and they are finding nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 01:01 AM

George W. Bush looked like a prize fool on 9/11. The speech he made was stiff, wooden, stupid and uninspiring. He stood staring at the camera as if he couldn't really believe it was happening.
When he got the news, he sat staring at "My Pet Goat" as though waiting for someone to tell him what to do.
Now, if the hijackings had been a government conspiracy, don't you think they'd have tried to make the president look a little more heroic. Imagine having him get the news on an airforce base, or while standing in Independence Hall, or at the Old North Church in Boston. Or they could have put him in the oval office, and told him to refuse to leave.
But the hero of the day was Rudi Giuliani, not Bush.
If you are going to crash a plane on purpose, you're best bet is to do it over the ocean or a river, like the Monongahela, which is large, deep, and muddy, so things disappear there all the time.
You would not crash it in a popular tourist area, like Somerset Pennsylvania, where people will be prowling the crash site with metal detectors for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:15 PM

You'd know.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:13 PM

Am I the only one who sees the implicit racism in this particular set of conspiration theories? Them stone age Arabs are just not clever enough to inflict that amount of damage. They can't even fly planes.

Over here, the only people believing this BS are right wing nuts.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:08 AM

It seems WTC 7 was brought down.

Ya might want to give this a read and a listen.

However, it's never been made clear exactly how the fire started. BTW, most pro explosives people would tell you that it takes days to place charges so that buildings come straight down. Lots of stuff needs to be answered it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 12:53 AM

robomatic - WTC 7 fell down out of patriotic solidarity.

Keep asking!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 07:41 PM

Robomatic - Was the McDonald book "The Green Ripper"? I haven't read that one in a while and it's in storage to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 06:06 PM

I was just reading one of the last of the John D. MacDonald books and one of his characters was a conspiracy nut. One of the other characters observed that it came from a need to believe in organizing principles behind what would otherwise be random events, so that folks would rather believe in a conspiracy, evil or otherwise, than that, in the words of Homer Simpson, "it's just a bunch of stuff that happened".

There have been some excellent documentaries on what brought down the Twin Towers, and although I am honestly curious about what happened to WTC 07, I don't need to believe in evil fairies to inquire honestly wotthehell hoppened. Maybe the foundations were tied together, I dunno...

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 08:40 PM

Yep, the fun thing about the 'conspiracy theories' game is that the 'explanations' don't HAVE to make rational sense... there are far deeper psychological needs to be taken care of....

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 06:19 PM

I have read a lot of the "truth about 9/11" stuff and I have tried to keep an open mind tempered with a healthy dose of skepticism, but up to now I have kept quiet. However, the following horse manure demands a response: "Each firefighter had a 10 million dollar life insurance policy, for example, payable to their Union. So the commanders were told to keep cramming their grunts into the bldgs. The payoff saved the Union." That claim is laughably absurd.

Does anyone for a moment believe that every New York City firefighter had a 10 million dollar policy? Even if it were only term insurance the premium on each would be astronomical. Who paid that premium? The individual firefighters? Their union? The city government? And even if the firefighters each had such a policy, why would they make the union the beneficiary, rather than their families? It's insane.

When I used to live in Fort Lee, New Jersey, just across the George Washington Bridge from New York City, I knew many NYC firefighters who lived in that town and the surrounding communities. They were members of the Uniformed Firefighters Association of Greater New York, which is Local 82 of the International Association of Fire Fighters, AFL-CIO. As the certified bargaining agent, that union collected its dues through mandatory payroll deductions. It was not then and is not now in any financial difficulty, and it certainly wasn't about to go belly up. But even if it were in dire fiscal condition, the union leadership never put their brothers (and their tiny handful of sisters) in such jeopardy.

I should also point out that superior officers, from lieutenants all the way up to deputy chiefs, are members of a different union. They belong to the Uniformed Fire Officers Association, which is Local 854 of the IAFF, AFL-CIO. Although both are affiliates of the same parent union, the two locals are entirely separate from one another. In any case, the mysterious higher-ups who supposedly told the commanders to send the firefighters to their doom would have been chiefs or higher, and therefore not part of any union.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 11:41 AM

The following is a conspiracy. The people who are alerting us to this conspiracy are not nuts. How many people were complicit in keeping the following conspiracy a secret?

We have every reason to expect that the grandson is carrying on the family tradition.


From John O'L's link...

"After the seizures in late 1942 of five U.S. enterprises he managed on behalf of Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush, failed to divest himself of more than a dozen "enemy national" relationships that continued until as late as 1951, newly-discovered U.S. government documents reveal.

Furthermore, the records show that Bush and his colleagues routinely attempted to conceal their activities from government investigators.

Bush's partners in the secret web of Thyssen-controlled ventures included former New York Governor W. Averell Harriman and his younger brother, E. Roland Harriman. Their quarter-century of Nazi financial transactions, from 1924-1951, were conducted by the New York private banking firm, Brown Brothers Harriman."

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: John O'L
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 08:33 AM

Sorry, here.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: John O'L
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 08:31 AM

Interesting article here about Prescott Bush from the New Hampshire Gazette 2003

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 02:45 AM

No. Rex 84. Set up by Ollie North in '84 for Reagan. For the black uprising people kept telling Reagan was coming. Total BS, but it got the camps built. Then they were "decommissioned," according to news reports. But they're still there. And the US govt just sold us out on privte property. The Sup Court ruled in the New London Connecticut case that PRIVATE individuals can now condemn your property if they can increase the tax revenue from it. Puzzling ruling, until you read the article about the superhighways from TX to Duluth. The showdown's coming folks. And they have the cmaps ready.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 10:27 PM

"your kids will die in forced labor camps "

That happens now - it's called 'the suburbs'.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 08:54 PM

http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/toll_roads_its_the_law_feds_pave_way.htm

Yes. The global elite are setting this up for their grandkids. For example, they will inherit the giant U.S. toll road system mentioned in the article above. Completely illegal, yet the gangsters in charge of the govt are going to do it anyway.

The article above talks about how Americans will now be charged tolls to drive on roads we built with our tax money, and that money will go to private organizations and individuals. That's illegal.

This was why the people in charge of the federal govt carried out 9-11...to get Americans fixated on non-extent "terrorists" so crap like this can be pulled out of the hat.

Aren't you Americans mad yet? I mean, LOOK at this article, and then consider how congress is now fast-tracking Line-Item veto for the President. They did that just a few years ago and it was shot down by the Supreme Court because it violates the separation of powers (Congress holds the purse strings, not the President), but now that a single party has seized the all 3 branches of govt, and Americans have been cowed, they're going to give GWBush the power to just scratch through bits of legislation he doesn't want to fund.

That's a dictatorship, folks. You can keep quiet about it if you want, but your kids will die in forced labor camps if you don't do something. Now.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 07:57 PM

Grab:

You are wrong about the Trinity test. It was proof of concept, nothing more. They certainly didn't invite the Japanese over to watch an experiment.

Indeed it was an incredible project. But it was no secret to the Soviets, who knew virtually anything they wanted to know about it.

GUEST:

Sounds like you have listened to a lot of aluminum hat wearing late night AM broadcasting card-carrying nutjobs. OR-
you taped as I did the pilot episode of "Lone Gunmen" which had a government plot to remote fly an airliner into one of the WTC towers!

I'm sure you are also full of information on the government suppression of the Roswell story and details of The Philadelphia Experiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 05:20 PM

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/p/pentagoncrash.htm

Here

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Grab
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 02:09 PM

So Kofi Annan and all the royal families in Europe are in on it too, are they...?

Screw this, I'm out. Every time I blow one of your bits of "evidence" out the water, you throw some new bit of crazyness at me. I should have realised earlier that it's impossible to reason with someone suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, so I'm going to stop trying.

As the saying goes, "Never mud-wrestle with a pig. You both get covered in shit, but the pig likes it."

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 02:01 PM

But what's the payoff for the gangsters that start this 100 year plan if they aren't around to reap the benefits? Are these generous people that just want to pass down a fascist government to - their grandchildren?

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 01:41 PM

But it's not the US govt. Not in the Civics Class sense. The Executive Branch has been seized by a gangster family. That was the easiest branch to seize (just two people, Pres and Vice-Pres).

GWBush's grandfather Prescott Bush wanted to overthrow the US govt in 1934 and set up a Hitler-like fascist govt in America. But he and his cronies hired the wrong man to lead the effort. Gen. Smedley Butler. Butler blew the whistle on the traitors.

Ten years later Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker (GW's other grandfather) were pushing for the establishment of a "secret" branch of the govt. That's how we got the CIA. And the CIA has been ruled over since its inception by the Bush family's club of billionaires with its nexus point at Yale's Skull & Bones club. Bush # 1 was head of the CIA for a while.

Skull & Bones carries a whole other bucketful of issues with it, but I bring it up only because 9 of the 17 CIA directors have been Skull & Bonesmen.

So, the US has been seized by a cabal of secretive people whose ancestors did business with Hitler and tried at least once to overthrow the US govt. And now they're doing it again, only this time from the inside.

And can we vote our way out of the problem? You decide. John Kerry was a member of Skull & Bones. And both he and GWBush said on "Meet the Press" they couldn't talk about the club. They swore an oath to the Constitution, but they can't talk about Skull and Bones.

And they're just operatives. Mouthpieces. Their job is to morph America into a third-world dictatorship, and they're doing it. They're just focusing on their decade of the gangster family's hundred year plan, and they know it. And THAT'S what most people can't understand...the patience of these people. They own the media that tells you to buy that new gadget NOW, so how the hell are you going to have a hundred-year outlook?

As far as, whatever was mentioned about exposure, we're ALL exposed. You're going to die in a concentration camp if all goes according to the Kofi Annan/Bush/Queen Saxe-Coburg plan. I couldn't care less what happens to me as long as I know I'm right. I refuse to be part of the lie, and I'd rather die without fear than live like a cringing dog. Besides, these folks have bigger fish to fry right now. They have nations to bring down and pension funds to crash. They're not going to pay much mind to the my mutterings. And if they do, I'll see you in the next life. This is, after all, the land of the free. For a while longer at least. But we'll lose our freedom unless people start speaking out like this. We've been taught to think in polar extremes (bullets or ballots), but there's this middle ground of words. And we'd better use it while we can. If we use it effectively, we'll shake off the gangsters.

End of sermon.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 01:10 PM

I'm not. I just don't believe the US Government was behind the 9/11 attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 01:03 PM

Wesley, conspiracies are just that... conspiracies. The use of events such as the fabricated Gulf of Tonkin incident in order to justify an illegal war against the people of Vietnam was a conspiracy. When people point out such conspiracies, the people behind them try to paint them as nut cases in order to try to divert attention away from what they are doing.

I tend to suspect that many of the sites that are discussing this topic contain a lot of stuff that has no basis in reality. But that doesn't mean that all of the questions being raised by people who don't believe the 'official' version of events are invalid. You can't paint all of the people asking such questions with the same broad brush.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:40 PM

Sorry - Call me a sheep then - but as bad as this administration is I don't think they could have pulled this off. But then again I also think that Jim Morrison is dead, Oswald acted alone and that we really did land on the moon. And that the earth is round and that Bigfoot doesn't exist.

Conspiracy theories are usually just that - theories.

Guest - are you concerned that this thread exposes you to the government and gives them a way to track you down? Do you expect any retaliation for your efforts? What worries do you have about exposure?

I also believe in free speech and applaud you for your efforts.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 11:26 AM

I've had questions I wanted answered for a long time, Guest. There are too many things that either don't add up, or when they are added up, the answer doesn't match the one we are being given.

I would like to see an independent investigation into what happened during the time leading up to 9/11, on the day of 9/11, and in the days and months following 9/11.

And I've always felt that the idea that the US government was in some way complicit in what happened on that day is entirely plausible, and even quite likely. The US government, of all of the possible culprits, had/has the most to gain from an attack such as the one on 9/11.

I don't accept all of the conclusions or even all of the "evidence" given by the people you have been quoting. But I think a good, independent investigation would clear a lot of that kind of thing up.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 09:31 AM

Well, Europe is a good case in point for the effectiveness of terrorism. You folks used to have free speech, individual constitutions, etc., but then you woke up one day and were told you now live under a union. The EU. And it was incremental. A response to terrorism here, one there, and suddenly the drachma is gone and you have a Euro Dollar. Oh, and by the way you can no longer deny the holocaust happened or you'll go to prison. Thanks to national govts giving up sovereignty a bit at a time, so their peoples could be protected from terrorist groups. What hogwash. The govts created the terrorist events. A good recent example is the Madrid bombings. That old satanist king Juan Carlos thought he could get away with one more act of barbarity against HIS OWN PEOPLE, but the Spanish saw through it. They knew it was govt-sponsored terrorism on the eve of an election and voted the parties responsible out of office. Beautiful.

And if you need more evidence of thermate being used (the published-for-peer-review paper of a university professor isn't good enough), then why don't you need more evidence that 19 boxcutters led to all that death and destruction? Why do you take the word of a secretive, foot-dragging govt investigative commission composed of proven criminals?

Denial is a tool to preserve sanity, they say, but I wonder. Psychiatry seems to justify a lot that's unjustifiable. Denial seems to BE insanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 08:03 AM

Many years ago, in a Magazine called "Private Eye", I remember seeing pictures of multi-story housing units with massive damage caused by a gas hot water heater 'popping'... Shortcuts in building techniques were responsible.

Similar things (as well as physical damage to a few steel components, massive localised heat application to de-temper steel girders, etc) caused the steel in the Towers to critically fail - the building style was such that 'the chain was only as strong as it's weakest link' syndrome. When enough minor bits in that style of construction fail - that's all she wrote!

With a huge conflagration (which I watched live on TV) burning on floor X, the steel holding up floor X+1 was eventually gonna get VERY hot, and eventually start to weaken, and fail.

Once even one floor was missing most of its support structure, more things were gonna break as the stresses spread! And once it started to go down, even Superman couldn't have held it up.

Done some blacksmithing you know... iron is a wondrous element...


However, just how the bloody hell a wallet in the pocket of a guy in the cockpit at the centre of that damn inferno managed to magically appear undamaged on the top of the wreckage pile certainly puzzles me. Do I believe there was SOME sort of conspiracy? Well...

I was a founding member of 'The Crash Rescue Squad' many years ago, a group of volunteers who turned up to act as Safety Paramedics/Rescue workers (with all the cutting gear, Jaws of Life, etc) at Motor Sporting Meetings for all classes of Sedan Car and Formula One. We were trained in Fire Fighting Techniques too - we thought we had good need to protect ourselves while potentially standing in the middle of a pool of flammable liquid while cutting the driver out - we did live 'hot' training exercises with real burning fuel too - burning fuel (of any type) is not a 'cool thing'... and in that quantity that was on board planes on takeoff on long flights - my dad was a WWII multi-engined pilot... I know how long I watched it burn...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST,Grab
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 06:26 AM

You *are* remembering that what was shown on TV was the promo stuff that al-Qaeda released themselves, aren't you? If you want to get yourself that old-time credibility with your followers, go for the old-time look. But I don't know why you would think that flintlock muskets is all they have. It's entirely public knowledge that the Taleban had tanks, missiles and heavy artillery, and if you didn't know that then you weren't paying attention to international news for the decade before 9/11. And you don't get to use tanks, missiles and heavy artillery effectively if you're a "caveman" whose idea of sophisticated weaponry is a musket, now do you?

I'm from the UK, incidentally. Along with the rest of Europe, we've known about terrorism and attacks from other countries for decades, unlike the US that's only just woken up to the possibility of terrorism. Europeans are also well aware of the possibility of external attack on our countries, whereas the US has never seemed to take it seriously, probably bcos it's never happened for close to two centuries - the last major incursion was the war of 1812.

Of course, now we know thermate was used to cut the steel at the twin towers

You might. The rest of us who need more evidence than mere assertions on a website don't. Just because it's written down, doesn't make it true.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not denying that this has been used by cynical politicians to bolster their own positions. In fact, I know for sure that they've done that, especially GWB (I was over there at the time of the last election, I saw his TV ads). Maggie Thatcher did the same with the Falklands conflict in the early 80s, and it's been a tool in every politician's armoury for centuries.

But to claim that it never happened is pure fantasy.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 10:03 PM

I don't know where you live Graham, but in the U.S. we were actually shown images of bearded men in long robes with flintlocks, standing at the mouths of the caves of Tora Bora, Afghanistan. That is the footage the networks ran. And they told us the men pictured on the screen were Taliban/al Qaida, the people responsible for bringing down the twin towers. Men with flitlock muskets.

Of course, now we know thermate was used to cut the steel at the twin towers. Heck of a lot more sophisticated than flintlocks.

Watch some of the free streaming videos. GWBush told us we were in imminent peril, yet he stalled for 411 days before naming the war criminal Henry Kissinger to head an "investigation." Bush is for open borders, but the first thing you do in a "war" is close your borders. He's demonstrated by action alone we're not in peril. The whole "war" is bogus. He said before he took office he was going to be a war president because no one can question a president domestically during time of war. That's in his authorized biography.

The whole 911 thing was intended to traumatize and stupefy. It's worked. Until now. Isaac Newton wins. The WTC bldgs were blown. And that jetliner wouldn't have left a mere 16-foot hole in the Pentagon (actual size of the hole, recorded on film, before the wall above it collapsed). There is soooooo much evidence.

And it sounds like you've been following this topic for a while CarolC. Good for you. Isn't it amazing how people don't want to know the truth?

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Grab
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 08:13 PM

Guest, your "cavemen of Tora Bora" spent a couple of decades beating the crap out of the Russians, using every form of weapon from knives and rocks up to SAMs and explosives. They salvaged damaged/abandoned Russian tanks to use against the Russians. Due to a shortage of SAMs, they *invented* the idea of using anti-tank rockets against helicopters (you stand somewhere high and lure the helicopter into the valley, so you can fire down at it). American "advisors" (CIA) helped with training, and supplied various bits of kit like missiles. And you'd have us believe they're a bunch of ignorant savages who haven't advanced past spears and flintlocks? Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with their take on religion, nor with their take on the treatment of women and children. But to dismiss them as "cavemen" is utterly ludicrous.

And maybe you forgot that the guys in the plane were actually from Saudi Arabia. Yes, the same Saudi Arabia that supplies a crapload of oil. Yes, the same one with massive airports, everyone owning a car and consumer gadgets by the zillion. Yes, the one that supplies plenty of the pilots for airlines such as UAE.

Oh, and we've got more people in on the conspiracy now - every TV news station and newspaper. Oh, let's say another round thousand average American civilians, shall we?

Carol: Iran/Contra, probably a fair number of CIA people were complicit. Outside of that, pretty damn few. You certainly didn't have a couple of thousand average firefighters, policemen, journalists and investment bankers in on it! And it's not too difficult to imagine that the CIA guys thought it was all OK - let's face it, the CIA had been working to undermine a whole bunch of countries for years, and nothing they did impacted on any US citizen. And when it all came out, the press crucified the government, did they not?

Pentagon-wise, see http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77.htm. The security cameras certainly do not show the plane on impact, only the fireball of the explosion, which obscures everything else, so you're right that it isn't evidence of a plane hitting. You *can* see that there was nothing next to the building at the time though, which means that either whatever did it managed to cover a pretty serious distance in a very short time, or there was a bomb inside. And as that site points out, focussing on those pictures is conveniently ignoring a whole bunch of eyewitnesses. Plus of course everyone from the military, firefighters, police, medics and forensics who was on the scene.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 02:18 PM

How many complicit people do you think were required in order to conceal from the US voters the Iran/Contra business prior to the cargo plane getting shot down over Nicaragua that brought this covert operation to the attention of the voters? (Imagine what might have happened had the pilot of that plane not violated orders by wearing a parachute... we might never have learned about that one).


I've been reading some of the "debunker's" responses to the questions posed by those who see culpability on the part of the US government for 9/11. I have only read a small handful so far, but of the ones I've seen, the "debunkers" don't really seem to be addressing the really damning questions. Mostly they seem to be side-stepping those questions, and "answering" other questions that really don't shed any light on the issues.

Also, I noticed that some people have provided security camera images as proof of that a Boeing 757 crashed into the Pentagon. And I notice that none of the images actually show a Boeing 757. The "debunkers" are practicing just as much sleight of hand as they are accusing others of doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 01:53 PM

Television has blinded Americans to the obvious. 19 incompetent flyers did not shut down NORAD and meticulously guide those huge planes to their targets spot-on. That's just common sense. The govt's explanation isn't logical or even possible. The falling towers didn't violate the laws of Newtonian physics. Nothing can violate those laws.   

So if the govt's explanation of events is impossible, then what really happened? It astounds me that so many Americans don't want to know the truth. I guess you non-questioners feel you have too much tied up in the system to ask questions that may lead to the collapse of the system.

On 9-11, Fox News was screaming at you 30 minutes after the second plane hit that it was 1) Ossama bin Laden and 2) he is in Afghanistan. Then they said faulty intelligence led to the "breakdown in communication..." blah blah blah. But if our intelligence was so bad, how could Fox news give us who and where half an hour after the event? I mean, Americans have been blinded to some pretty obvious non sequiters.

Fox is a govt mouthpiece, and it and the other TV networks have led you by the nose through the acceptance of the constitution-killing PATRIOT Act, two illegal wars, MORE constitution-killing legislation, a whole boat-load of legislation intended to surveil you, another boat load intended to destroy families and small govt units...all because you buy the obvious lie that The Cavemen of Tora Bora aimed their flintlocks at New York and the towers fell. What garbage.

Anyway, you old geezers reading this better be worried. The forensic economist I mentioned above (Hawkins) said in the interview I listened to that pension funds are going to be the next big target of the federal govt. Private pension funds. The Bush crime family is going to steal those the same way they stole the S&L money (Neil Bush and S&L...look it up). Hawkins said the govt will tie some local pension fund to "investing" its funds in "al Qaida" or some other terrorist organization, and freeze the funds. So, the people depending on that fund for monthly checks will go without. The case will languish for a year in a federal court, just to set a precedent, then the really big funds will be targeted. Eventually the federal govt will turn on itself and cannibalize its own retirement system in the same way...freeze it for investing in terrorist-related groups. By then all the "homeless" will be in "relocation centers" praising the govt for providing a roof and a job (slave labor). Pretty slick, huh?

So you fence-sitters better ask if you really believe 19 men with box cutters did the deed as the govt has told you. There's more riding on exposing 9-11 than you may have realized.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST,Grab
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 12:50 PM

Carol, in that case we're talking (a) a time in which the private affairs of politicians (and illness would be one of those) were off-limits to reporting; (b) something that isn't a factor in their performance as a politician; (c) something that isn't a major crime involving massive premeditated murder; and (d) something that actually *was* fairly widely known if you'd seen him in the flesh, it just wasn't explicitly pointed out to the newspaper-reading public who hadn't been to see him in person, so if you weren't really interested in him then you wouldn't have found out.

Whereas in this case we have (a) a time in which even minor slips by politicians are well newsworthy, never mind premeditated mass murder; (b) something that would put Bay of Pigs, Cambodia and Watergate right in the shade; (c) premeditated mass murder; and (d) something that not one person in the "conspiracy" has been prepared to talk about.

In other words, the comparison simply doesn't hold, I'm afraid.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 12:25 PM

How many complicit people do you think were required in order to conceal from the US voters President Roosevelt's (FDR) inability to walk?

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Grab
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 09:37 AM

So who do I believe? The ones who have just started lying to me or the ones who have been lying to me all along?

John, I don't believe *anyone* who I can prove beyond my doubt is lying to me, especially if the "sources" they're using to "prove" their lies can be read by anyone and easily shown to be utter bullshit.

I don't know how much the US government has lied, but I *do* know for sure that these people are lying to me. Whether Guest has an ulterior motive, or whether he/she has been taken in by their lies, I don't know. But as I said above, it's very easy to prove some of their claims wrong, and as Sinsull said, there are various other sites around the web that are doing a good job of debunking that "truth".

We're also starting to get to ridiculous levels with the number of people complicit in this. All the cabinet and all their aides, and all high-rank officers in the Army and all their aides, goes without saying - that's going to be maybe 400 people. Then there's the state police in PA who picked up the pieces of flight 93 - 400 people. Then there's the coroner and the various DNA sampling labs who established that the bits of flesh and bone came from the flight 93 passengers - maybe another 100. Then there's the army/FBI/CIA groups who planted the bombs - it's going to take several groups, so let's say 100. Then there's every soldier on guard at the Pentagon at that time - say 100. And all the people working in that area of the Pentagon on that day, and all the people who say they extracted plane remnants from the Pentagon - another 200, say. And however many people it took to hold and then murder the passengers on flight 93 - maybe another 100. And all the fire brigade commanders, and all the upper leadership of the firefighters' union - another 100. And then all the companies you claim were involved - at least another 500 by the time you've counted all of the companies up.

I'm sorry, but once a conspiracy theory requires well over 2000 active participants, a majority of whom are average soldiers, policemen, firefighters and bankers/accountants, then we're well into the realms of fantasy.

Remember what they say. "They all laughed at Christopher Columbus. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown". Go figure which category I think you're in.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 01:31 AM

http://www.911eyewitness.com/truth/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=39

This guy Hawkins is interesting. A "forensic economist." I heard him interviewed. Talk about confusing. But he had a point that now, almost five years later, this stuff should've been sorted out.

Basically, lots of companies were going bankrupt, New York City was going bankrupt, Lloyds of London, etc. But by setting up a domino payoff scheme, the tragedy in NYC brought many companies back from financial ruin. Mostly through advance knowledge of the event (so people could sell shares of various stocks), and through insurance payoffs. Each firefighter had a 10 million dollar life insurance policy, for example, payable to their Union. So the commanders were told to keep cramming their grunts into the bldgs. The payoff saved the Union.

And Hawkins is right about this being complex but solvable. Hell, it was reported just weeks after 9-11 that the former employer of the # 3 man in the CIA...well, read it yourself.

Associated Press, 9/18/2001; San Francisco Chronicle, 9/19/2001] "To the embarrassment of investigators, it has also [learned] that the firm used to buy many of the 'put' options ... on United Airlines stock was headed until 1998 by 'Buzzy' Krongard, now executive director of the CIA." Krongard was chairman of Alex Brown Inc., which was bought by Deutsche Bank. "His last post before resigning to take his senior role in the CIA was to head Bankers Trust—Alex Brown's private client business, dealing with the accounts and investments of wealthy customers around the world."

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=insiderTrading

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

Since then, Krongard has retired and said it would be bad if Osama bin Laden were caught, because someone worse might replace him. What a guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 01:05 AM

In June of 2001 control of NORAD was transferred to the Dept of Defense. First time the military organization responsible for protecting American skies had ever been placed under civilian control (first time in its 50+ year history).

On Sept 11 the U.S. military and Dept of Defense were running 4 or maybe 5 "drills" simulating airline hijackings. One of the drills simulated crashing planes into the WTC towers. At the time of those drills, Dick Cheney was the only man in the world who knew which blips on the radar screen were live and which were part of the drills.

Then, Secretary of Transportation Leon Mineta testified before the 9-11 Commission about Cheney's behavior just before the Pentagon was "hit." This was after the planes hit the towers, and everyone in Cheney's bunker knew there was a problem. The aide told Cheney the plane was 50 miles out from Washington. He came back later and said the plane was 30 miles out from Washington. Then he came back and said it was 10 miles out and asked if the order still stood. Cheney said, "Of course the order still stands. Have you heard anything to the contrary?" Secretary Mineta said that. Then the commission said something about, oh you mean the order to shoot down the plane and Mineta (still in a daze) agreed that's what Cheney must have meant.

But NORAD automatically scrambles jets to intercept errant planes, challenge them, then shoot them down if they don't respond acceptably. The interceptor's standing orders. Always have been.

So, from the mouth of the Transportation Secretary himself, we have Dick Cheney admitting he overrode the these standing orders. That's the only possible thing that could have been under discussion, and his aide was stupefied by what was going on.

You or I would have been executed by now for this. But because they controlled the so-called "investigation" into 9-11, these killers are still free. And free to kill again.

Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of these smoking guns. You debunkers can't debunk the truth. The tide is turning. You Vichy punks better change your tune while you still can.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 10:04 PM

http://www.public-action.com/911/voice-simulation/index.html

That's how they did the voice morphing for the 'calls to loved ones.'

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: John O'L
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 09:17 PM

So who do I believe?

The ones who have just started lying to me or the ones who have been lying to me all along?

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:52 PM

I too have done a bit of net surfing and found very credible explanations for most of the "problems" discussed on the video.
Nothing on Condi Rice warning anyone not to fly on the 11th.

Subject: RE: BS: Forced helplessness
From: Grab
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 09:28 AM

12,000 people kept the Manhattan Project secret for years. No one outside the project knew until the atom bombs went off in Japan.

Actually, everyone knew after the first test explosion in Trinity. That was intended as a warning to the Japanese that the US had the technology. The Japanese ignored the warning. And where did that 12,000 figure come from? You can bet that only a few dozen knew the real score - the rest were just guarding places or moving things around, following orders and not asking questions as your typical enlisted soldier is trained to do. If you check the history of Bletchley Park or other ultra-secret codebreaking places, things were split up into discrete tasks by the guys running the place, so that none of the people actually doing the stuff knew where their info came from or where it went to. The only thing the average enlisted man could tell was that their place was trying to design bombs or break codes, and that's hardly a surprise in wartime.

Back on topic, and the website. The WTC stuff in general, I couldn't say, and I'm at work so watching the vids is out. Although their assertion about the black boxes is bullshit. A little secret of the aircraft industry is that black boxes actually *do* fail fairly often. They're not magic - they're only an expensive tape player. They're encased in something pretty robust and they're given as much shock resistance as possible, but it's certainly to bust them, most easily by giving it enough of a jolt to get through the shock protection and bugger the internals. And as for the comparison with the passport - well, drop a sheet of paper and a large metal object (say, an engine manifold or something equally solid) from the top of a high building and see which one survives the impact best. I'd bet on the passport myself.

But as far as the Flight 93 stuff goes, that's the purest bullshit. I quote from the article linked from that site:-

Investigators crawled through the debris field, bagging bolts and bone fragments. They found chunks of seat cushion foam, and honeycombed sound insulators. Then a shoelace, some shirt buttons, and a wedding ring. Then part of a passport, and a necktie, still knotted.

"The first responders really went through a lot," says Capt. Frank Monaco, commander of state police Troop A at Greensburg and the coordinator of the state's 400-man crash site team.

The work wore on them. "People say, 'Wasn't it horrible?'" Monaco says. "Well, we didn't have time to think about it. We literally ran on adrenaline for two weeks."

Further on in the article, the coroner says he "spent five months and $500,000 and found less than a tenth of the victims' remains."

In other words, the passengers' remains were so mashed and burned, and spread over such an area, it's hardly unlikely that he'd not see a drop of blood. What he'd find would be charred fragments of bone and flesh - and he *does* say that he found plenty of those. Another link from that same site says "He personally identified 12 bodies through fingerprints and teeth. The remaining 32 bodies had to be identified with DNA testing." Presumably he's lying, as were the people doing the DNA analysis?

Sorry, but no.

I did my own "research" (actually I just hit Google ;-) and found this site. Check out http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/refute.htm.

Graham.