BS: Racist Capital of Europe

Subject: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 03:10 PM

RACISM against ethnic minorities is on the increase in Northern Ireland to such a degree that it is now being nicknamed the racist capital of Europe.

Chinese, Romanian and Ugandan families have all been burnt out of their Belfast homes over recent months. Muslims have also been attacked.

The attacks are being committed by loyalist paramilitaries in Protestant working-class areas, but why is it happening now?

The number of people settling in Northern Ireland from ethnic minorities has increased over recent years, but communities like the Chinese have been in residence for many decades.

During the years of the troubles, such ethnic minority groups seem to have been largely left alone. Duncan Morrow of the Community Relations Council has said that there is "a lazy toleration of racism in this community. The situation now is what might have happened in Britain in the 1950s."

There is, no doubt, some truth in this view. But, to get to the root of the problem, a closer look needs to be taken into loyalist communities.

Despite still being in the majority and represented by the largest number of members in the Northern Ireland Assembly, there is a perception among loyalists that they are under siege.

Such thinking makes little sense to Catholics, who merely see some power-sharing and wonder why the loyalists should feel this way.

For loyalists, not being in total charge, with the Catholics fulfilling the role of second-class citizens, amounts to a substantial change in the power indices of the North.

This siege mentality has been responsible for much of the arbitrary violence handed out to the Catholic community since the Good Friday Agreement was signed in 1998.

Though little reported, there has been a low-intensity war being conducted against Catholics ever since the agreement was signed.

Pipe bombs, shootings and young children being stopped from going to Holy Cross School have all been part of this war. Whenever there has been a perceived big step forward in the peace process, a subsequent violent reaction has resulted against the Catholics from the loyalists.

Of course, not everyone among the Protestant community is part of this violent approach. However, the more extreme elements have never accepted the agreement and still believe that they have to defend their areas. Arbitrarily attacking Catholics was seen as the best way to do that.

At first glance, the attacks on the ethnic minority groups almost seem like a throwback to the days of the civil rights movement in the late 1960s.

At that time, Catholics were being burned out as loyalist mobs sought to drive them from their areas. Now, it is ethnic minorities who are being burned out.

The present attacks on ethnic minorities should be seen in the context of a broadening of the violent approach of loyalists.

However, there are other forces at play. For years now, there have been close links between loyalist groups and the far-right in the remainder of Britain.

Groups like the fascist BNP and Combat 18 have made common cause with some loyalist groups. The BNP recently announced that it would be stepping up recruitment in the north of Ireland, no doubt to capitalise on the hotbed of racism that is already simmering here.

It is also surprising to see the number of English, Welsh and Scottish football clubs who seem to have loyalist attachments. There is the Swansea Loyal, Charlton Loyal, Cheltenham Loyal and Blues Brothers, a site for Chelsea, Rangers and Linfield loyalist fans.

The Chelsea Loyalists website declares: "Whilst the website supports a peace process which would be acceptable to British citizens, rather than bowing to republican terror groups' demands, we also pay tribute to those who defended their families and homes from the enemies of the UK."

The Yorkshire Loyalists site, meanwhile, has a page devoted "in loving memory of John Gregg, commander of South East Antrim UDA."

So, the growing fascist influence among loyalist groups, when added to the self-perceived siege mentality, has played an important role in fomenting racial violence.

Another consideration is the open racism whipped up against asylum-seekers by many in the British media. Asylum-seekers have settled down well in the North of Ireland.

The racist bile directed at refugees in Britain has increased the level of racist violence here. It is strange, though, that, wherever racial intolerance or religious bigotry are on show, the Orange Order never seems far away.

The Orange Order's operations in Britain are something of which many people seem unaware. There are Orange lodges in Portsmouth, Bedford, Chester, Lewes and Liverpool.

It is curious that there should be an Orange lodge in Lewes, where the annual ceremony of burning an effigy of the Pope Paul V takes place.

There have been no direct links drawn between the Orange lodge and the anti-Catholic ceremony each year, but it does seem rather coincidental that the two elements should come so close together.

The presence of the Orange Order, wherever it appears, seems to denote a certain backward-looking culture. A visit to Lewes, in east Sussex, on November 5 each year is possibly the closest that anyone is likely to get to going back 400 years.

The religious intolerance on display is the same as four centuries ago. The event is dismissed as a harmless bit of fun, with the burning of the pope's effigy and general ridicule of the Catholic church.

But it will be interesting to see how the revellers react this year when Catholic Joe O'Keefe arrives with his supporters to make a peaceful protest.

Will they be greeted in a peaceful way or, as one particularly vicious letter to O'Keefe suggested, "put on the bonfire" themselves? It is easy to be tolerant when the other side doesn't show up.

The activities in Lewes are the closest thing in Britain to the annual march to Drumcree church in Northern Ireland. The same intolerant religious attitude is on display at both venues, while the dress and behaviour appear to come from a bygone age.

The march to Drumcree and then back through the Catholic Garvaghy Road is about domination over a minority. The reaction to O'Keefe next November will denote whether the ceremony in Lewes is about the same thing.

The racism being shown to ethnic minorities in the North of Ireland and parts of Britain is the same thing - the desire of a large group to stamp what it believes is its authority on another.

What the need to exercise dominance at every available opportunity really betrays is insecurity. The loyalists were happy as long as the Catholics stayed in their places and did not step out of line.

The moment they did, it was time to adopt violent means to put them back in place. Such an approach continued for 30 years of conflict and is ongoing today with the low-intensity violence directed towards the Catholic community.

Attacks on ethnic minorities are the other side of the same coin. Northern Ireland desperately needs the skills of the ethnic-minority community, but the most insecure in society feel their positions threatened by incomers.

When the threat can be so easily manipulated, it makes ready ground for fascists to prosper, which is also happening to some degree in Britain.

The commonality between the workings of the Orange Order, the activities of loyalist groups in Protestant working-class areas in Northern Ireland and certain right-wing elements in Britain are undeniable.

The challenge is to confront the insecurities that such bodies feed on and so move to a multiracial and religiously tolerant society.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 03:17 PM

Good post, Divis. I guess it is the "once a bully always..." syndrome. They can no longer (officialy) maltreat Catholics so they pick on someone else. Very glad you have started off by pointing out it is the Loyalist paramilitaries that are doing this. I have no doubt at all that soooner or later it will be down to the English (who else) according to some of out better informed members;-)

I guess there would be no place for me at all in NI then? Perhaps I should cancel my plans for a visit. Where on earth could a half-Polish, Catholic, Englishman find a place in such a complex environment?

Just joking of course - still planning to visit sooner or later.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 04:29 PM

And you'll be welcomed Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 04:38 PM

"The event is dismissed as a harmless bit of fun"

How can the Orange Order be accepted and tolerated?

When will it all end?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 04:48 PM

Hope all is well with you Bill. Speaking to a few Polish guys last week who are living/working in my town. They are really worried about the attacks. At the end of the day, if a man, woman or child is red,yellow or black they have a right to live and work were they wish without fear. I like so many others welcome them to our country. Very hard working any of the ones I have met. Government needs to crackdown now.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 05:39 PM

I think you are absolutely right in your analysis of the Belfast situation, Divis Sweeney. But I think, as regards Lewes, that you should not ignore that what they are recalling is the disgusting burning alive of a group of Protestants by Catholics a little over 400 years ago, one of the seriously repellent bits of English history. Most things in England get forgiven and forgotten quite quickly, but that one has stuck in Lewes memory. And who can blame them?

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 05:43 PM

400 years ago?!?! Big FKING DEAL!!!

Build a wall around it, a quarter mile high, and then fill it with water

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 06:08 PM

Dear Greg, what you know not, you don't know. Best you talk about what you do know.

Sincerly Sorefingers SX grad 76!

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 06:58 PM

There were plenty of atrocities carried out by both sides of the religious divide in England over the centuries, in England just as in Ireland.

It's good that they should be remembered, as a warning about what can happen - but it is vile when they are used as a way of keeping hatred alive and building new hatred, the same hatred that gave rise to them in the first place.

But there are different ways of dealing with that, and my impression is that, while the Lewes celebration has grown out of the same kind of hostility towards "Papists" that has distorted life in Northern Ireland, and which was very widespread in England in the earlier part of theblast century, it has had its teeth drawn, in the same way as other Guy Fawkes Night celebrations have, and much of the hate has been drained away.

This is something which has only happened over the last couple of generations. It is something to be welcomed that Catholics today generally feel no worries about joining in Guy Fawkes Night celebrations, because I can remember when that wasn't necessarily true. I'm not sure whether that is as yet the case in Lewes, but if not I hope if it's far off. (Though an episode a couple of years ago when a Gypsy Caravan was burnt in the course of a Guy Fawkes celebration near Lewes does suggest that genuine bigotry may still be pretty close to the surface in that corner of England, and available to be exploited by the likes of the BNP.)

I look towards a time when the same process will have happened in the Irish counties which currently comprise Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 07:48 PM

The Orange Order seems to me to be the UK equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan, and an equally nasty blot on the social landscape of these Islands.

While I am a believer in freedom of speech and religion, this penchant they have for demonstrating their foul bigotry under the very noses of those they oppose is, IMHO, incitement to religious hatred, and should be treated the same as incitement to racial hatred, with prosecution, conviction, and jail sentences.

That might just cool their pseudo religious ardour.

BTW,I am a protestant who believes that they give my faith a bad name.

DonT.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 03:41 AM

England has many traditions whose origins are lost in centuries old history.
You are like those who say we are all racists because some ancient customs involving blacking faces.
There are as many extreme Republican as Loyalist groups in England.
Any English Mudcat person will tell you that there is no anticatholicism in England. Listen to McGrath. He always speaks wisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 03:43 AM

and this is surprising how>?

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 03:46 AM

There have been links between the British racist right and Ulster Loyalists for many years, though as Searchlight magazine shows, the English patsies couldn't compete with the Ulster hardmen, and wielded little direct influence there.

As for Lewes, don't forget that both Henry VIII and Elizabeth I executed more heretics than Mary- though partly due to their longer reigns. Of course the whole reformation period was one of dreadful cruelty and intolerance. But the religious divide in England was not exacerbated by a cultural, linguistic or ethnic divide as in Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 03:52 AM

And the religious divide in England is just history.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 04:09 AM

We are all used to the sectarian nastiness of loyalist paramiliataries, but this new phase is absolutely evil.
They are now threatening estate agents and warning them not to rent houses to Chinese, Asian or African people.



It's still a terrible reflection on Ireland as a whole.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 10:11 AM

I am a catholic and never feel threatened in Lewes on bonfire night. It is a brilliant spectacle and totally anarchic. The Bonfire Boys who died in various wars are remembered as are the protestant martyrs. That is a significant part of the night but basically Lewes Bonfire survives because it is fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 10:20 AM

I have never understood why Paisley hasn't been jailed for some of his speeches.
The British should just hand the whole kit and cabooble over to Dublin where it belongs. Just set a date and stick to it, they'll get used to it fast enough if it's a done deal.
The Labour Party will have to be the ones to do it because the Tories depend on Unionist MPs to make up their numbers in Parliament.
Anyone who doesn't want to live under Irish rule can move to Britain and Britain can pay relocation expenses for the bigots (not that we want them either).
Why have successive governments allowed the current situation to drag on for so long? We don't need Northern Ireland so why not do the decent thing and restore one island, one Ireland as it should be.
PS I'm English.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 10:34 AM

The British should just hand the whole kit and cabooble over to Dublin where it belongs.

Not an easy thing to do, Guest, Eire are, or were until recently, undergoing something of an economic upsurge through EC funding and good management. Should the north, with all it's troubles, both sectarian and economic, be 'handed over' as you suggest how do you think it would impact on the economy of the nation? What impact do you think these 'loyalist' paramilitaries would have on the peace in the south?

No, sorry, that is not an easy solution. Much as it may hurt many of the people, including friends I have, in Northern Ireland, the painful truth is that it is now in such a state that no-one realy wants it:-(

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 10:36 AM

Oh - I must agree about Paisley though. How on earth that man stays in power is beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 11:06 AM

I think Ian Paisly is still the party leader for the worst possible reason, namely he really does speak for a sizeble number of people.

Handing Northen Ireland over to the South is a silly idea. As noted, Eire doesn't really want it either. Could it be sold off to the Shamrock brigade in Boston, New York etc?

Re the Lewis Bonfire effagies, I though it had evolved into a strange but harmless local custom. I remember seeing a news report on it one Year ( very slow news day), and they had effigies of the Local MP, some of the Big Brother contestents and the then England Football manager amongst others. Some selection like that anyway, and it showed a sense of humour, rather than bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 12:56 PM

Belfast's Anti-Racism Network spokesman Davy Carlin said while the focus had been on recent attacks in south Belfast, it was important to remember people were encountering racial bigotry and harassment throughout Northern Ireland.

"This is not confined to one area or one class," he said.

"There is evidence of institutional racism and it cuts across all backgrounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 01:57 PM

We are all used to the sectarian nastiness of IRA paramiliataries, but this new phase is absolutely evil.
They are now blowing up mainland pubs full of innocent young people(1970's)
So what's new Divis? it seems to be the human condition and not related to any particular grouping or belief system.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 02:25 PM

I knew sooner rather than later that a GUEST would swing this thread around to the IRA. So prizes as to who the GUEST is !

Racial hate is throughout the North of Ireland, not just Belfast. As I got my hair cut this morning I could not believe the lady who was cutting it started ranting on about the number of these people coming into the country and taking over houses and jobs !

The reason they are here is because nobody wants these factory jobs over here simple as that. Most bigots have never peeped their nose over their own front door and it's their own insecurity.

Can we please keep this thread on racism and focus on this vile and hateful crime. Thanks

Hope other members note the above remark which failed to get a reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 03:18 PM

Didn't take long did it Divis? :-(

Just waiting for who's fault it all is now but I won't give you more than 3 guesses;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 03:56 PM

He's had his fling Dave, now we can get back to the subject in question.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 05:43 PM

Sometimes it's religion, sometimes it's "race", sometimes it's both, sometimes it's something else entirely. It can be football allegiances for God's sake.

The point is to find a distinction between people you can work on and turn into a division, and use it to gain some kind of power, or often enough some kind of illusion of power to make up for the lack of real power.

Any time we find history and historical injustices being used as a kind of rallying point to revive anger at some other group of people we should be very cautious.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 06:49 PM

Divis, it was your posting that pointed the finger at one sectarian group. Try being English in Scotland at the moment. it's endemic everywhere. I hear it all the time. Loyalist, Republican, Socialist, Tory, Muslim, Christian, etc etc. I just object to your narrowing this down to your constant one-eyed vision when it's a humanity wide issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 07:01 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 07:07 PM

Guest I can only speak as I find in my country. If I found Republicans were involved in racial attacks over here I would speak out against them. Sorry about above post, fighting with my new toy, a wireless laptop !

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 07:09 PM

Like I said Divis, one-eyed! The cry of all bigots throughout the world...it's them Miss, not us!
Divis, it's everyone, everywhere. It's bloody stupid humanity. I cannot believe you are so blind to reality. But then, that's single issue people everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 07:14 PM

Guest As I said I can only speak of what I see in my own country at this present moment in time.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 07:24 PM

Okay Divis, like all people of faith you're unshakeable. Your name henceforth is "Nelson". Here's a telescope. You'll see no ships.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 07:40 PM

If it is the case that racism in Northern Ireland is more characteristic of one side of the community than the other, that is well worth noting and exploring, because there could be important lessons to learn from that.

As the experience in the former Yugoslavia has shown, the fact that two groups of Christians are at each others throat is no guarantee that they will not at the same time be hostile to a third party, in that case, the Muslims.

I would suspect that the very fact that over the years far right groups based in Great Britain, like the BNP and the National Front have built up links with extreme Loyalists, and have presented themselves as friends of Loyalism in Northern Ireland, (as also has been true of the anti-immigrant gutter press), might be a strong factor in helping people from Republican and Nationalist backgrounds to be more resistant to this kind of racism than might otherwise have been the case.

Unfortunately there are people in some parts of the world who have little difficulty in combining a sentimental attachment to Irish Republicanism with racist attitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 01:59 AM

Sweeney, I am always suspicious of your motive for starting a thread because you have a track record.
Mudcat has no racist members, so your thread would have gone unchallenged if your opening post had not:

a. Claimed that racism in Belfast only exists among the Protestant people.

b. included a lengthy attack on Britain as a racist nation.

Re the latter, this country, though a small island, has welcomed more assylum seekers than any other country in the world.

Re a. I provided some qoutes from Davy Carlin, a prominent and radical member of your community, with a post of responsibility for the problem of racism, who states that racism is not restricted to one community in N.I.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 03:40 AM

No, Divis claimed that the ATTACKS are from the loyalist side. These are very serious attacks- you can't claim that calling somneone nasty names is equivalent to burning their house out.

Those of you who are saying effectively, "you're all as bad as each other" are just being too lazy-minded to study the evidence. Read this. Note that "rogue elements withing the loyalist movement" are behind the attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 03:58 AM

OK Paul. Fair point.
I am certainly never going to defend any of the paramilitaries.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: vectis
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 10:50 AM

Bigotry is usually the backlash of ignorance and insecurity (fear). A bit like a toddler lashing out when they don't understand or are upset.
The trouble lies with the adults and those with power (parents, teachers, clerics etc) who encourage action.
Maybe it gives them some sort os vicarious thrill to see the results of their words on the people they can manage to make into their puppets.
All bigotry needs to be tackled with education but it is difficult to overcome prejudices digested with mothers milk.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 12:08 PM

As for education, I think most people start off being pretty tolerant and accepting of difference, but too often get educated out of it by the people around them, sometimes in the home, but also in the streets, the schools, the workplace and through the media.   Resisting those kind of pressures can be easier if you've been brought up to be prejudiced against racism. Don't knock mother's milk.

Mudcat has no racist members I wouldn't bet on that. I suspect that some of the nastier GUESTs we've had in this sort of context actually are members.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,Mandoleer
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 08:41 AM

When my mother was a teacher in Litherland (part of the Liverpool connurbation), a little girl in her class said, "arr Miss, 's a pity you're not a Cathlic. You could come to our Lodge if you was." Which says something, I suppose.....

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 12:32 PM

THE construction of Northern Ireland's first purpose-built mosque was blocked by Unionist politicians who say that residents would be kept awake by "wailing" and that Muslims are plotting to destroy Christianity in Ulster.

For years a small Muslim community near Portadown, Co Armagh, has observed the antics of Orangemen during the annual marching season in the mid-Ulster town. Blending into the most famously hardline Protestant area of Northern Ireland, a province that remains 99.15 per cent white, according to the 2001 census.

But after years of minding their own business, they have spoken out after Unionist councillors objected to their plan for a mosque in a field outside Portadown. One councillor claimed that the development could pave the way for an al-Qaeda terrorist cell in the area.

Fred Crowe, an Ulster Unionist councillor and leading figure in the Orange Order and a former Mayor for the Craigavon area, said that residents in Bleary believed that their way of life would be threatened if the mosque were built. Mr Crowe said that encouraging Muslims to settle in Craigavon might open the door for militants. Adding, we saw what these people can do to get their own way.

Woolsey Smith, who represents Ian Paisley's Democratic Unionist Party, said: "They say it's not going to be an eastern-type mosque and there'll not be the wailing noise calling these people to worship but we don't that, you simply can't believe these people. I would be worried for residents in the area as to just what they will be confronted with, a lot of these people are linked to terrorists."

Like other Unionist councillors, Mr Smith claims the mosque, proposed for a boggy field three miles outside Portadown, will cause sewage problems and heavy traffic on the country road leading to it, even though Muslims say that their community is at most 200-strong in Craigavon.

Mohammad Yousaf, a retired draper who came to Northern Ireland 15 years ago, said that Muslims had used a community centre for their Friday prayer meetings since a makeshift mosque was burnt by vandals who arrived one night during a meeting waving U.V.F. flags five years ago.


Mohammad Ashraf, a Pakistani whose family came to Northern Ireland 27 years ago and who owns the land on which the mosque will be built, said: "We don't want to fall out with anybody but we want the mosque. It will be a simple building that will blend in, with just one dome, not too many minarets. They'll be no wailing, no call to prayer. Who is going to listen around here anyway? Cows?". He thanked the nationalist members of Craigavon Council which included Sinn Fein for their support.

Fred Crowe said Ulster Christians will fight to the death to stop Muslims stamping themselves over our faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,Coalisland Tyrone.
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 03:38 PM

The simple facts are, that here in Northern Ireland any ethnic person who is not informed as to where the safe districts are in any town they settle in, will run the risk of being burned out, or, beaten to a pulp by those secterian idiots that proclaim themselves Lyalists.

I am at peresent living beside Polish, Bulgarian, and Ukraine nationals, and I have no problem with these hard working people, the Polish family told me that they had a bad time in Portadown until they eventually were forced out of this Loyalist stronghold.

Please study the facts before branding all of us as a parcel of bigots, the Loyalists are behind the vast majority of the attacks, and the sooner the TV and Press get down to pointing the finger at the real culprits, instead of putting all of us in the same boat as the thugs who are really behind the savage attacks on all ethnic groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:04 PM

William McCrea, the DUP member for South Antrim, and a renowned country and western singer is a member of the Orange Order and makes no secret of the fact he does not want " These well intended foreigners becoming integrated into the Ulster community".

He also stood on a platform with sectarian murderer Billy Wright. If unionists want to know where their credibility problem lies they need look no further than the speech of McCrea on that platform with Wright which he called for a Ulster Protestant state to be set up. McCrea also is a close friend of BNP member Billy Bragg and shared a stage with him. McCrea was the minister at the funeral service of Billy Wright.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:18 PM

Is that the same Billy Bragg that does the 'No Hate' anti-BNP gigs?

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:43 PM

Sorry, such a mistake to make, meant that guy who stood for the BNP and was a Country singer, can't remember his name

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Noreen
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:49 PM

>Woolsey Smith, who represents Ian Paisley's Democratic Unionist Party, said: "They say it's not going to be an eastern-type mosque and there'll not be the wailing noise but ...you simply can't believe these people. I would be worried for residents in the area as to just what they will be confronted with, a lot of these people are linked to terrorists."

You couldn't make it up, could you! It would be laughable if it wasn't so terrifying.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:00 AM

Sigh...the more things change, the more they stay the same. Rotten damn shame. If you believe in (God? Higher Power?) to the extent that you pray, then pray that the Love that Jesus talked about and lived--which heals, renews, gives life--comes to pass everywhere that it is not currently practiced. That'll fix 'em. Fix us all, imho.                      Tw

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 03:43 AM

Trouble is, Tanny, that they believe in their own Jesus, not yours. I'm not sure which of you is right.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 04:14 AM

The government is to spend £104,000 to help the Orange Order in Belfast develop the Twelfth of July.It is hoped it will become a "Orangefest".

It said it was disappointed that those who did not feel comfortable with parades would abandon the city centre during the marching season.

The money, to be paid over three years, will fund a development officer who will promote the day as a festival.


Social Development Minister David Hanson said he hoped the money would please the Orange Order.

"There are very many negative perceptions about the Orange Order and I understand why these are the case," he said.

"What we are trying to do over is to help support the Order to mitigate against those negative perceptions.
"The Twelth of July for many nationalists in Northern Ireland represents domination and sectarian violence."

However, Orangeman William Humphrey, who is vice-chair of the Belfast County Grand Master's Advisory Committee, said The money will be nice, now let's get the government to allow us to walk whatever routes we choose.

The Orange Order is the largest Protestant organisation in Northern Ireland with at least 75,000 members.

Looks like the riots they started last year after they were re routed and then burned out four army landrovers and two police cars has paid off !

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 03:37 PM

from Dublin Evening Herald:

BY IAN MALLON

THREE Sinn Fein activists pre-planned a race hate ambush of foreign workers.

The men, who are key Sinn Fein election workers, were jailed for an orgy of violence against a group of non-national workers.

The vicious thugs also attacked gardai, leaving one officer seriously injured.

A court heard how the three party workers waded into a group of about 20 foreign nationals while shouting racial abuse and screaming republican slogans.

David Smith, Neville Murray and Declan Gannon were all imprisoned for their part in the brutal assaults.

Assuming that Divis speaking about "my own country" means Ireland and not just six provinces of Ireland I'm sure he's ready to condemn that incident as well.

But as for the whole picture, McGrath may well be right thinking that in Northern Ireland one of the two large communities is more prone to racist assaults than the other. From my point of view, that is a most welcome change from the stupid positions (not held by McGrath) often found in other threads that all groups are equally likely to commit atrocities and so on. In some cases, some groups are more guilty than others and this here seems to be one such instance despite me being able to find a racist attack by Shinners.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 04:18 PM

I condemn without reserve any racial attack in any country. These so called Republicans should face long sentences for their crime against these people. I have no time for it AT ALL. They are bastards in my eyes.

I also condemn the recent attack on two German students who strayed into a loyalist area of Belfast and were robbed and beaten up, after being subjected to racial abuse.

It's well for you Wolfgang that you have little to do only search the net in the hope of scoring cheap points against me at these poor peoples expense.

Consider a hobby.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 05:21 PM

I don't think that was a cheap point Wolfgang was making there, and he put it in context. Racism can creep into any set of people, and it's important to be prepared to oppose it and expose it anywhere it crops up, because we should recognise it as our common enemy, whoever we are, and whatever we believe abvout anything else.

The same is true of its variant, sectarianism, and that can sneak up on people in traditions that may with some reason pride themselves on being racially inclusive, such as Islam or Catholicism. (Some reason, becausde members of both traditions can fall down badly on that too.)
.................
This thread reminded me of the old Northen Ireland joke: "Are you a Catholic or a Protestant?" "I'm an atheist/ a Jew / a Muslim." "But are you a Catholic atheist/ Jew / Muslim or a Protestant atheist/ Jew / Muslim ?"

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 05:45 PM

I was once sat in the Europa in Belfast when a bloke whispers in my ear "Are you a Catholic or a Protestant?"

"Neither," says I as quick as a flash, "I'm Jewish"

"Boy," says he "I'm the luckiest Arab in Belfast..."

This thread hosts a very seroius comment. But I can't resist the odd joke:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 06:48 PM

It was a cheap Point scoring exercise by Wolfgang in the hope I would defend those he spoke about because they were so called Republicans.

He has little to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 07:44 PM

Seriously I doubt very much if he'd have thought that. He'd have had no reasonable basis for thinking that, and Wolfgang always strikes me as strong on being reasonable, even when I disagree with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,Colin - Poyntzpass
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 06:01 AM

Can I draw one thing to your attention. While all racism is disgusting, you are blaming it all on Loyalist paramilitaries. Several weeks ago a foreign cricket team were attacked and chased by residents of the Short Strand (Republican ghetto). Also several chinese visitors were not only attacked in Short Strand but then chased towards the Markets where they were attacked again. They were merely taking photographs of murals. I suppose Republicans thought they were British agents, as those ghettos are so well infiltrated anyway...LOL. The racism is not one sided. In Garvaghy Road (Portadown) the Polish, Latvian and Portuguese workers in Moy Park were intimidated in their dozens so that they went to live on the Tandragee Road....a notable Protestant area...as they felt safe there. If these foreign guests and migrants feel so intimidated by Loyalists, why did the local Loyalist bar open its doors to them and actually allow them to open up a bar/restaurant for the foreigners alone. There are cases of racism on both sides in NI...its just the media only report from areas that they have access to (where they feel safe), which so happens to be Loyalist areas. The media do not just dander onto the Falls Road to take pictures and write stories about racism. WISE UP. There are dozens of cases of racism on both side here...and it is all deplorable.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,Robert Allen
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 08:24 AM

Your post is somewhat wrong Colin.

Members of Indian touring cricket team suffered a racist attack and were terrified after their ordeal.

The Indian teenagers, who were in Northern Ireland as part of an under-19 cricket tour, were left badly shaken.

Five of them were chased in the strongly Loyalist Albertbridge Road area by up to 15 youths many wore Glasgow Rangers tops. Their accommodation has also been stoned.

The Lord Mayor of Belfast welcomed them on Tuesday with a special reception said it's hard to believe young loyalists could do this.

Councillor Pat McCarthy hosted the event for the team at the city hall.

This is East Belfast a strong DUP area.The councillor for the area is D.U.P Robin Newton. So colin it's unlikely that nationalists were involved.


Police have also condemned the incident, and said a racist motive was being investigated.

They called on the local community to show their support for the young cricketers. First to show their support were the Sinn Fein members of Belfast City councill.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,Ivan
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 10:08 AM

Let's face it, folks, Belfast isn't really the capital of anything - and I speak as citizen. We have a long way to go on the racist front before we could catch upwith places like London or Bolton. Or Paris and Berlin for that matter.

There certainly is racism and it does seem to be on the increase. And the vast majority of it originates from the loyalist side of the community. To pretend otherwise reqires either serious ignorance or serious intellectual dishonesty.

I am not for a second claiming that no RC or nationalist was ever a racist. But it will say this; if everyone in the world had the same attitude to other cultures and ethnic groups as the republican movement there would be no racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 10:27 AM

Ivan, you obviously have not visited London lately.
It has the greatest cultural and ethnic diversity than any city in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:27 PM

racism is rife everywhere in the world. A shining example of "republican" racism is south Boston USA. How many blacks live there? NONE! Why? the last black family who moved in there was burned out. Race related crime is very high in south Boston, and committed predominately by "Irish" Americans who are catholics and support sinnfein/ira. The self same mob who stopped the parades for saint patrick's day because of their homophobic bigotry. And before any of yas start, go round south Boston and you'll see all sorts of murals supporting sinnfein/ira. I thought I were back in Belfast the first time I was there.
How many blacks or muslims are regulars at celtic supporters clubs in Belfast? How many blacks live in republican areas? (whod want to live there at all comes to mind) How many asian or black members attend mass in republican areas? I know several asian and black families who attend protestant services in Loyalist areas.
You call Billy Wright a murderer. You of course have proof of this?
Oddly enough HM courts couldnt find proof of this. Are you witholding evidence?
Everything Ive read on here reeks of republican green-tinted bollocks. Ulster is British. The sooner you get this through your spud thick skulls the better off everyone will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:33 PM

Isn't the racing capital of Europe where they hold the Grand Prix?

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:22 PM

Good to hear from you Bob. Spoke to Sly in Buckeye last Sunday evening. Sorry to hear about your recent problems. You old fox, check their birth cert, the next time !

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:19 AM

"Ulster is British. The sooner you get this through your spud thick skulls the better off everyone will be."

Ahh, a voice of civility, understanding, impartiality, and deep political & geographic accuracy...

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: JamesHenry
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:09 AM

I met the same bloke poster 05.45 and he asked me if I was a Catholic or a Protestant and I gave the same answer as yourself, "I'm Jewish," I said.

He thought for a minute and then said, "Ah, yes, but are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?"

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:34 AM

So original JH, this joke originated on the Ark.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: JamesHenry
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:54 AM

So you were on the ark?

What were you, one of the chickens?

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,GM67
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 09:53 AM

I have wondered on to this site and have read some interesting points and learnt some new ideas. it is my belief that the problems are a diurect response not from religion but from extremism and fundemntalism, this can be linked to any conflict around the world. the way to combat this is through education, educating football clubs that sectarian insults are wromg (as with celtic rangers by uefa) the singing of no surrender has obvious orange overtones yet is is sung by all england fans much to the delight of ill educated bnp wombat 18 fanatics/berks. i believe we should be looking at the youth maybe giving more say to them politically, as i am 23 this is easy for me to say but anyone over 40 seems to be poisened by history. PEACE. excellent discussions by the way. ps can't be bothered to spell check. sorry

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 10:01 AM

You did well wondering on and locating a thread that has been off our list for over a week. Did you wander into search as well ?
I wonder who this could be ?
Let me guess, bet he comes on shortly with a reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,mick
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 10:49 AM

I bucked the trend and moved to Ireland about twenty years ago when there was mass emigration to England America Europe and anywhere people could get work . Back then people used to be rather self-righteous by reports of racism in other countries tending to see racism as purely a product of colonialist mentality. The Irish as a colonized people saw themselves as somehow immune from racist bigotry.
The Celtic Tiger changed all that . I think it was a bit of an embarrassment for many liberal types here to find out that the Irish could be every bit as racist as the British , Americans and Europeans. If you think about it ,saying that your nation is incapable of being racism is in itself racist .
But Wolfgang did not reproduce that Evening Herald report about the three Sinn Fein members racist attack on migrants in full and his comment did lose context thereby . I read the report at the time .In court the three men concerned showed what certainly seemed like genuine remorse -and shame -for what they did. They were roundly and correctly condemned by Sinn Fein and ,if I remember rightly, put out of the party.The fact that the strongly anti Sinn Fein Evening Herald ran that story on its front page demonstrates that accusations of racism do damage to Sinn Fein .That would certainly not be the case with the DUP and people like Willie Mcrea.
I think that ,whatever you say about Sinn Fein ,it is not a racist party. That's the difference between the situations in the north and the south. There are any amounts of racists in the south but racism is not respectable down here and none of the major parties are pandering to racists. Any party that deliberately tried to whip up racism would find themselves isolated .
I hope that remains the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,Colin
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:11 AM

I am an Ulsterman and a Protestant. I am no lover of republicans, but I have to disagree with you Mick. The Sinn Fein party are trying and I wish the D.U.P. would come on board and allow us to get on with it. The past is the past. Also sadly racism appears to be on the rise within Loyalist paramilitaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:40 AM

you're all fucking idiots who don't understand a thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:49 AM

Thanks for clarifying that.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 09:52 AM

Divis, you have been giving the response I had expected you to give to my post (that's a praise).

That story was just a chance find in my weekly reading of the Slugger O'Toole website. Lest people misunderstand my motives I have tried to put it in perspective in the rest of my post as McGrath has noticed correctly: One rare story not in congruence with the general picture. If one reads An Phoblacht one can clearly see that racisms has not the slightest official (provisional?) support.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:14 AM

Sorry Wolfgang I misread you. I myself like any right thinking republican hates the ongoing attacks on these people here. Last week saw more attacks on tourists. A German couple in Larne and two coloured guys camping in the Mournes. All were subjected to racial abuse by groups either wearing loyalist shirts or had loyalist tattoos. Police said the creeps who did both attacks entered back into loyalist areas. If I knew of any so called republican who carried out such an attack I would be happy to batter the bastard myself. I also welcome English, Welsh and Scottish to Ireland as they welcomed me. I am not coming down hard on Loyalist only here, but they are the ones behind the crimes I see. As you pointed out here, these bastards that call themselves republicans are scum. Thanks for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:44 PM

Interesting. I thought racism was confined to the southern US. At least that's what the history books would have us believe. (smirk)

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:08 PM

Well Kim if you read about the D.U.P. the main loyalist party in the North of Ireland you will find you couldn't split a hair between them and the klan.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:14 PM

Kim C. - Discrimination based on skin colour is a world wide phenomena. Have you forgotten South Africa or the Ethiopian Jews of Israel? Doesn't matter where you go. Lighter skin = privilege and prosperity, generally.

Oddly enough, if you are among the very wealthy, your skin colour does not matter one bit. Politicians use skin colour as a means to divide and conquer. Better to keep the lower classes at each others' throats than to have them recognize their real enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:11 AM

I know, Dianavan. I was being facetious. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,Cornish
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:20 AM

Cornish is my surname you idiot! ahat's your excuse dumbo?

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,Truro Tom
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:08 PM

Guest Cornish looks a likely candidate for the virus vault.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:38 PM

According to the news I read, the Orange Order would be safer in Co Donegal - which is the ROI - where being on the dole is not a crime. But then what would I know about it.

Racism in Ireland, it has occured everywhere else in Europe, say nothing about England. There entire cities are so Pakified that white people don't go there, ahem. If Loyalists/IRA do run the odd outsider off - so bloody what. As far as I can see from here, the Islamists who were welcomed into Britain/Ireland have showed their true colors and tis a pity that McCray and friends did not make a KKK party by hanging these bastards a long long time ago.

So I don't think it is as simple as Divis might have thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 07:45 PM

Good clear view there through Orange tinted glasses. Can't speak about what it's like in England Sorefingers, wasn't on the ground long enough, but any people I met here who came in from other countries were fine with me, after all I was visiting too. Can speak about over here though, the news reporters let us know the areas and clans involved. Read up on councillor Fred Crowe a good Orange man and his views about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,Adam
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 04:15 PM

Why is this even on this forum please????

Good to see you catholics supporting foreign migrants - a modern day version of the Scots' plantations comes to mind. I wonder if 4 centuries from now the descendents of you T**gs will be shouting Muslims and not Brits out? Do you know that around half of the pupils attending inner city schools in Dublin come from a foreign background, where's your 'Irish' culture now? Give it a generation of Irish girls butchering their unborn down the abortion clinic, your 'queer' menfolk (ooh, like many of those Muslim immigrants I'm a homophobe and proud to be) not having any kids, and your families disobeying the rules of the Catholic church (afterall, an instiution as grand as that is nothing compared to the democratic votes of semi-litterate, televisual inspired Dubliners, still less the foreigners in Brussels, not London, who decide your entire national cultural and political policies) on Contraception, and your people won't exist. If you're the height of modern 'Irish' cultural attainment, perhaps the sooner the better! Try to do better than posting year-old B.T. articles while you're at it.

And enough slabbering about the Order!

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM

Adam, I think you might be overstating the obvious.

OTOH it does not look too good overseas to see KKK parties hanging Pakis in Ireland, eventhough most Brits might be wishing they had the ???s to go first.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,Adam
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:55 PM

And another thing, I've no trunks on. If this is the case that loyalists hate these blackies so much the Grandmaster of the Orange order Dawson Bailie is living with a young blacky so there !

These posts are getting close to the edge of what is allowed to be posted. Anymore references to "Paki" or "blackies" and it will be closed. The discussion of racism can take place without being racist. Mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST,Adam
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 02:51 AM

Please don't use my name to write stupid, self-cliched remarks which are not amusing in the least and factually incorrect.

The Grandmaster is Robert Saulters.

The 12th several years ago was led by a coal-black Ghanan lodge; if you want to discuss 'racism', I suggest you start with 'Brits out', the Republican song 'Irish ways and Irish laws', or even the top cork, the 'Soldiers' Song', and its obviously racist references to the English. No wonder they used to ban you from their B and Bs!

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:30 PM

"Please don't use my name to write stupid, self-cliched remarks"

I'm afraid when you post as a GUEST there's no way to escape that risk. That is one of the advantages of being a member. (And there are no disadvantages to set against that!)

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 03:15 PM

The Office Of National Statistics has estimated that at least 10% of the population of Britain were born elsewhere.
Can any country in the world compare?
Credit where it is due. We are the multicultural, multi ethnic, multiracial captal of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist Capital of Europe
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 06:34 PM

Good point Guest. I myself welcome Ireland becoming multicultural, multi ethnic, multiracial. I have met so many nationalities over the past few years here and we have so much to learn from these people.