Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)

Subject: BS: Obit: Kenneth Griffith
From: Fiolar
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 08:58 AM

The great Kenneth Griffith (1921 - 2006) has sadly passed away on June 25th. He was probably one of the most underated actors of his generation and his work as a film-maker was second to none. Who can forget his fantastic documentary on Michael Collins entitled "Hang Out Your Brightest Colours" which was banned for over twenty years by the Independent Broadcasting Authority. Farwell Kenneth. Say "Hello" to Michael.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Kenneth Griffith
From: fat B****rd
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 03:46 PM

A bit of a reactionary as I recall. Was he not asked to leave South Africa for stirring things up ?.
Loved him in "Lucky Jim" and other black and white classics. RIP Mr. G.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Kenneth Griffith
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 03:54 PM

He was renowned for tackling controversial subjects, including the Boer War (on which he was an expert) and Ireland.

God be kind to him. May he rest in peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Kenneth Griffith
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 07:42 AM

I am sorry that he is dead, but I never liked him. His documentaries were controversial, but he always talked to his audience like an impatient school master trying to explain things to a dim child, whom he didn't much like in the first place. He was a self-righteous prig and thought apartheid a good thing. A great loss to humanity -NOT!

Although if you are anti-English (which he was), then you would probably love him. Hence the Boer and IRA sympathies. We (the English) had to endure him living in our country for most of his life. I hope we don't have to endure the indignity of having him buried next to our own dead for eternity.

He was a limited actor and a bit mad too.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Kenneth Griffith
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 09:20 AM

Wouldn't do to speak out against the English.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Kenneth Griffith
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 09:34 AM

You do more than enough of that yourself Divis. It really is about time that you took that big fat sulky chip off your shoulder.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Kenneth Griffith
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 09:39 AM

My enemies enemy is my friend!
G

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Kenneth Griffith
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 10:19 AM

My emenies friend is a arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Kenneth Griffith
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 11:37 AM

If and when I require the advice of a snob without substance, be assured Teddy I will call on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Kenneth Griffith
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 11:47 AM

Fighting talk from the old "Ginger Beer" in the bow tie !

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Kenneth Griffith
From: GUEST,r.miat
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:58 PM

Griffith happened to be the first westerner to be exspelled for anti apartheid actions in 1952..soooo mr "so pathetically off the mark..the truth to which the english seem to avoid"..go and actually do somthing like Griffith did and make a differance..what a pratt..

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Kenneth Griffith
From: GUEST,r.miat
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 08:21 PM

A last word for the penguin bloke...Can you really...really be in suuuch denial about the british...the lack of truth..the greed..enjoy the freefall mate 'cos your in a dive..and im sure your just the perfect pilot to bring her down....and trying to get through to people like yourself..well .....the fxxxxx truth of the matter perhaps requires a school master approach..getting through to his dim pupils...no ..actually its a waste of time..

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Kenneth Griffith
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 08:23 PM

which one was he in Lucky Jim?

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 11:30 PM

Lucky Jim

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 05:12 AM

Also in The Abominable Dr Phibes I see, a certain Portaferry lass's semi eponymous film.
G

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 06:30 AM

I remember him now, he was brilliant. that's what I call a significant contribution to the nation's culture. he was an artist, and in my book they're allowed to be a bit bonkers.

In fact several of my favourite artists have been raving mad. Are you going to forego and demonise WH Auden because he proclaimed himself a comuunist when Stalin was at his homicidal worst.

bury the bugger wherever he wants. Its the least we can do for him.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 07:00 AM

Read some of his work on the Boer War Al. A great guy, will be remembered. Bless him.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 07:45 AM

Speaking of the Boer War, has anyone seen BREAKER MORANT? One of the best films I have ever seen.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 09:04 AM

No wasn't aware of it, but will watch out for it, thanks Kendall.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Fiolar
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 08:59 AM

Kendall: I agree. Edward Woodward as Morant was great.
Divis: It was released in 1980 and is the true story of Harry Harbord Morant who was born in Somerset and went to Australia in 1883. Under the pseudonym "Breaker" he contributed ballads to the Sydney magazine "The Bulletin". He joined the Australian army in 1899 and fought in the Boer War. He was executed for the shooting of some Boers who were apparently coming to surender. It was mainly politics that caused his execution. One of the lines in the film is great. When asked by what rule he fought, he retorted "Rule Three-O-bloody-Three".
I recall watching an interview with Edward Woodward on TV. He discussed the film and said that when he and his fellow actor were walking to the execution site, he reached out and took his hand and together they walked to the chairs in which they sat. That was not in the script and he said it was a very moving moment.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 10:39 AM

Thanks Fiolar for that. Just checked there on ebay, see it there on DVD. Will get it. Again thanks for that.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 12:01 PM

I only remember him in 'Only Two Can Play' - exchange with Peter Sellers on the doorstep:

"Are you going out?"
"If I was coming in I'd be pointing the other way, wouldn't I."

(Or words to that effect, it was a long time ago)

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 12:15 PM

His potrait on film of Michael Collins was a masterpiece, a very much underrated man, he will be sadly missed by those people who opposed colonialism, may the sod rest lightly on this son of Wales.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 12:16 PM

BBC Wales Obit

Nigel

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:47 PM

A fine actor. At his best when others wrote the lines.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:48 PM

PS - what is it about acting that people so respect?

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 07:40 AM

Griffith's film about Michael Collins was Griffith at his worst. His school-masterly delivery and pompus proclomations totally distracted from the subject. He could talk down to a giraffe without any problem.
Say hello to Michael in Hell, Kenneth.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 07:46 AM

r.miatt. fighting my way through the dense fog of your grammer, I gather you think I am in denial of the British. Explain yourself. I am fully aware of our contribution to science, the arts, literature, philosophy, music etc. God, what a great country. It makes me so proud.. but then I suppose it depends on where I look...as it depends on where you look.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 01:51 PM

His potrait of Collins was a masterpiece, so good that the BBC were frightened to show it , God rest your Soul Ken. a great Welshman and friend of Ireland.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:57 PM

never seen the film about Collins. i liked the line about talking down to a giraffe, is it original? well done anyway.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 01:10 PM

Not my line, weelittledrummer,I got it from Time Out magazine who were talking about someone else. I wish I had thought it up.

Trust you to like Griffith, ard.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:59 PM

you know what they say PE: talent borrows, genius steals......nice use of metaphor. well done!

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 03:11 PM

Al if you want the film Grifith did on Collins it's called "Hang out your brightest Colours" pm me address again. He also did another one Called "Curious Journey" about the rising of 1916,will post both of on Monday if you want them.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 04:08 PM

I had another look at that Griffiths masterpiece on Collins, he really lashed into the colonial scum, a great man.
His Boer War series pointed out the cruelty of Britains concentration camps, Baden `puffter` Powell the boy scouts founder was the brains behind this abomination, Griffiths Boer War series was another exposure of the evil empire.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:13 PM

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:55 PM

Dear Fiolar and Kendall.
Many thanks for the leg up about the film Breaker Morant. Taking your advice,I won a copy on ebay which arrived today, watched it tonight. Without doubt one of the finest films I have seen recently. Many thanks
DS

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST,Richard Miat
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:12 PM

Well...Mr Penguin...."a huge loss to humanity-not" is really a ridiculous statement...i mean come on now....He really made an exercise for delivering a point of view to what he deemed a conditioned audience...i.e an ignorant audience,people who refuse,probably out of lazyness,to question the TRUTH(you know that one) about the appalling track record this country has commited through the centuries in a style,whether you liked his style or not compelled people to watch him..its DIFFERANT ..its INNOVATIVE .The fact that we have succeeded in those fields you mentioned is certainly at the exspense of many campaigns of brutality and GREED that resulted in a third of the worlds surface being British..
As for his Boer/Irish sympathies or any subject Griffith tackled...you find me one...one historical fact that was incorrect..just one ...i mean the very second the british got a sniff of cash..diamonds..they set out with huge brutality to take south Africa like a spoilt child ..simple greed..and with regards to Ireland,i cant point you out the injustices there,that is for you to do,if i had to i'd be here all night..is it that people like yourselves just potter along blindfolded..relishing in the great artistic,scientific trophies of nationhood.(hehe).shall you not for a second spare a thought about how we became so 'great'..we have sooo much,really,to be ashamed of..
Dont fret,he was buried in Wales ...I can imagine him loving someone like yourself...He would have demolished you intellectually...very quickly.xxi know my grammer is appalling,sorry.RM//

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:43 AM

Well Mr Miat,I do not deny that the British have done some terrible things in their time and I never have done. I have not even critised Michael Collins, whom I do admire. The British concentration camps in South Africa deserve nothing but condemnation. I would not argue otherwise. I was criticising Griffith's style- his delivery, if you will. I do not like being talked to like a child. I was also suspicious of his agenda - ready to criticise Britain (England especially), slow to put britain and it's actions into context. In the 19th Century, imperialism was accepted as normal, as it had been throughout history going back 1000s of years. The concentration camps were closed down by the British when the people realised what was going on, and they were the exception, not the norm. As for Ireland, it should be noted that it was a part of the United Kingdom and it's people had the same rights (including voting rights) as the people of, say, Kent. Would you say that the people of Kent were oppressed by Britian? Incidentally, South Africa belonged neither to the Boers or the British, but to the Africans. Griffith said not a word about them, but then they are black, aren't they and so don't count-well, at least not in Griffith's world.

My sympathies go out to the people of Wales where he is going to be buried. What have they ever done to him?

Your grammer is improving, by the way.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:56 AM

Just to support my argument, even the golden age of Athens had slavery, genocide and imperialism. You should not try and view the past through modern eyes. You could go on about "appalling track record this country has commited through the centuries." I could go on about it's achievements. Unfortunately, they often go together. The fact that Griffith's concentrated on one and ignored the other made me suspect his motives. His death is a loss to the enemies of Britain and to self loathing Englishman, like yourself Mr Miat.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:22 AM

During the Boer War the British Concentation camps were responsible for the deaths of 27,000 Boers, of whom 24,000 were children, these people were held as hostages to hasten the Boers surrender.
Kitchener seen that they had the desired effect and had them closed down when the Boers were on the verge of defeat.

The closure of these Camps and public opinion in England arrived too late for the unfortunate Boers, who died to foster the evil empire.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:56 AM

Not true, ard.... you should not listen to everything that Griffith tells you. The british government closed them down when they realised what was going on in those camps. It is a shame Griffith's lies did not die with him. The British Empire was no more evil than, say, The French Empire, or Spanish, or Portugese. More of a mixture of good and bad.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 07:08 AM

So Penguin Egg, who did run the camps, Billy Butlin ?

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 07:11 AM

The British army in South Africa. Concentration camps were never government policy.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 07:26 AM

Lots of events that occurred throughout history Received the convenient label of NOT BEING POLICY. Doesn't take away from the fact they happened.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 08:19 AM

I didn`t have to listen to Griffith to learn of the atrocities committed bt the British in South Africa, the 27,000 were a mere drop in the ocean in comparision to the evil empires record of colonial opression, in the rest of her usurped colonies.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:24 AM

My Irish grandad was in the Boer war at the siege of ladysmith. it was very tough living conditions for the average soldier. To give you some idea, he fought throughout the the First World War, and reckoned the conditions in the trenches were a piece of piss compared to the Boer War.

One or two of the things he said to my Grandma about his experiences and thoughts bring you up very sharp. i think it was pretty much a case of no quarter asked or given on either side. And if we are honest - that is how wars are won. Anything else is a betrayal of the men who put their lives on the line for you. Isn't it?

I know personally my family made no profit from the campaign.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:00 PM

Weelittledrummer it is highly unlikely that any of the soldiers engaged in any war will profit from it, afterwards some have to march to Jarrow to beg a crust, some reward for spilling their guts for the empire.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:13 PM

That should be Jarrow to London,

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:38 PM

I dunno Ard - maybe. Certainly my generation benefited greatly from not being under the Nazi jackboot. And from what you've said in previous posts, you yourself seem to feel your country has benefitted from the struggles of the IRA.

The Boer War of course must have been quite popular in England, at least from the point of view of people who did not have to fight it. There were quite a few jolly music hall songs. The Baby's Name, Goodbye Dolly, and I think the By Jingo one. And Wilde was very pro British over the war apparently.

A lot of the lads they gave an army medical to, before signing up were underweight - literally starving. I imagine conditions in England for ordinary folk were that shitty, the Boer war looked like a career opportunity.

A bit like the soldiers on the streets of Nortern Ireland in the Thatcher era. Of course THEY weren't starving when they signed up. But we live in a more materialistic age, people expect more. I expect it looked a better option than the dole queue.- and doing without all those things they advertise on the telly.

like someone said before, you just have to be grateful if you weren't confronted with those sort of choices yourself. well that's what I think.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:45 PM

Weelittle drummer, In all of the 32 counties of Ireland the British Army had soldiers who were glad to sign up for the Brit shilling, poverty and starvation left them with little choice.
Those that were luckly to return from helping their Brit paymasters had learned a salutary lesson, there were no prizes to be had except the dole queue.
I am old enough to have listened to men who were in WW1 and WW2 and the majority were sorry they had ever put on a uniform, the first World War had our local Orangemen singing up in their thousands, unfortunately   many of those men they were sent to to their death at the Somme and also in other fronts they met a similar fate.

The lesson learned the hard way by the Orangemen stood their sons in good stead as conscription, thanks to the southern government was abolished in WW2, and this was met with little protest from our loyal brethern, they were not willing to be cannon fodder in another war. The Orange Order cancelled all marches during the war, it was better that   all of those able-bodied marching behind their banners should not show their faces, at a time when Britain was facing a deadly foe.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:13 PM

Doubtless that was a point of view, being cannon fodder, etc.

And also I suppose the activities of te British Army in Ireland had made the English and the Englsih army, very unpopular.

Its amazing they got anybody to fight after the bloodbaths of the Somme, Paschandale, etc.

However alot of people must have felt differently. Look at all the Irishmen who fought on both sides in Spain.

recently I was watching an absent minded sort of way the history channel one morning, and suddenly I realised they were talking about my dad's outfit - the guards armoured division of the Irish guards. I sat there transfixed as the details of what they had been through were recited in that dull history channel sort of way.

Apparently the German tanks had a range of about one and a half miles, and the Sherman tanks that the English (Irish!) had, had a range of about half to three quarters of a mile - so it was a bit of a turkey shoot for the Germans - apart from the allies superior numbers. They fought from near caen, up throughthe lowcountries and up to Hamburg.

round about 18 months of wholesale slaughter - never knowing if you'd survive the next day.

I'm not sure what the psychology of signing up for that is - knowing what your fathers generation had gone through, and how their trust had been abused.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:55 AM

Divis, I am not here to defend the concentration camps. Britain created them and Britain must take the blame. However, they were a one off, never to be repeated-hence, not government policy.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:18 AM

Weelittledrummer ,Very few Irish took part in the Spanish Civil War, 700 `fought` volunteered for Franco, they never remained too long, more of a hinderance than a help, 250 fought on the Government side, as you can see a scant figure.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:44 AM

Thanks Ard. i was misled, by the popularity of that song about it.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Fiolar
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 08:44 AM

Divis - glad you enjoyed the film. Edward Woodward is one of my favourite actors and I think he did a great job as "Breaker".

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 07:31 PM

Sorry,have i missed something here?"The Irish had the same rights ,as say the people of kent"Wow...Your facinating,like a tiny exsperiment in historical denial.what you mean to say is that the protestant,British-invited guest's received the same rights...that is what were talking about here..is it?..Is it not the case that the english confiscated the entire land of Ireland in the 17thc with strategic interests and agricultural interests dominating their minds.the truth also being that the english demonstrated an all out racism towards the Irish people and their culture and relgeon even existing to the anti Irishness my grandfather exspressed in his last days!..and is it not the case that the english proceeded to exspel CATHOLIC landowners from ulster only to hand over their estates of between 1000-3000 acres each to british groups with a promise to clear out the native populations of the IRISH IRISH ...oui....leaving the native irish eligible for only the smallest,bog ridden plots at twice the going rent ....im puzzled at your logic of "same rights"here..ummm..if this,which it is,is the tip of the iceburg of a English-led apartheid system..(which you have suggested earlier might be a bad thing)..can you not exstend a hand of Irish sympathy and intelligent empathy and understanding at realizing this may harbour bad,deep rooted feelings in todays 6 counties ?And should this not register to you that these sovereign and govermental policies over these centuries would not carry any resentful weight into this century at all?,whereby these "english and scottish "planted people"still reap an advantageous angle within local issues ,law and order issues,with intimidation issues being ...as comfy here as we are in our communities in this country,left us with such a lack of understanding what it has been like to live under British rule there... anyway..there you go..incidently im not anti British at all-thats a truth...but the truth matters..it does doesnt it...and if a filmaker like Kenneth Griffith felt so strongly about an untruth..should he not take it upon himself(with his theatrical heritage )and total calculation of the FACTS..the truth(again)to assemble a filmcrew-go to the scene of the crime ..turn on the camera and refuse to be evenhanded because ,as he rightly saw it,there waas never any REAL evenhandedness handed out to the CATHOLICS in Ireland..am i wrong here?/it is far better to have a point of veiw and the conviction of your interests.. coupled with the permission and finance to broadcast to millions of people...he did that,whether it be highlighting the plight of the lowest castes in India(incedently-that is where i first saw him speaking..at the Ambedkar society..where he was their president) or in support of the jews(Ben Gurion)and their great fight for their land..Griffith always tried to show us the otherside ...he was ,perhaps perceived the way you see him.."a self righteuos -prig"because he had(a very rare thing)the desire not to please all the people,for that was not his job..his job was to ram it home..and try to make you think ..just alittle

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 07:47 PM

Penguin Egg, I accept your reply, not wishing to fall out with you over this, but regarding your reply that concentration camps were a one off and was never repeated, take it from me the internment camp at Long Kesh which opened it's doors in 1971 after the round up of men who were never charged with any crime and kept in these devided cages housing four nissen huts to each until the 15th of December 1975 when Britain decided it was not such a good idea after all and released the hundreds of men it had held without charge or court appearance for four years. Take it from me, it was repeated !

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 10:35 AM

I shall put on my hat of neutrality here and give you a cut-and -paste job from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.It's interesting, especiallly, if like me, you get a bit confused about what happened when, if at all, and a good memory jogger for those things one forgets.

Concentration Camps

In the English-speaking world, the term "concentration camp" was first used to describe camps operated by the British in South Africa during the 1899-1902 Second Boer War. Originally conceived as a form of humanitarian aid to the families whose farms had been destroyed in the fighting, the camps were later used to confine and control large numbers of civilians in areas of Boer guerilla activity. Tens of thousands of Boer civilians, and black workers from their farms, died as a result of diseases developed due to overcrowding, inadequate diets and poor sanitation. The term "concentration camp" was coined at this time to signify the "concentration" of a large number of people in one place, and was used to describe both the camps in South Africa (1899-1902) and those established by the Spanish to support a similar anti-insurgency campaign in Cuba (circa 1895-1898)

Long Kesh

Following the introduction of internment in 1971 there was "Operation Demetrius" with raids for 452 suspects on August 9, 1971. The police and army arrested 342 republicans, but key Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) members had been tipped off and many of those arrested were released when it emerged they had no paramilitary connections. Those behind Operation Demetrius were accused of bungling, by arresting many of the wrong people and using out of date information. later, some loyalists were also arrested. By 1972 there were 924 internees.
Initially the internees were housed, with different paramilitary groups separated from each other, in Nissen huts at a disused airfield that became the Long Kesh Detention Centre. The internees and their supporters agitated for improvements in their conditions and status; they saw themselves as political prisoners rather than common criminals. In 1974 William Whitelaw introduced Special Category Status for those sentenced for crimes relating to the civil violence. There were 1,100 Special Category prisoners at that time.

"Special Category" status for convicted paramilitary-linked criminals gave them the same privileges previously available only to internees. These privileges included free association between prisoners, extra visits, food parcels and the right to wear their own clothes rather than prison uniforms (Crawford 1979).
However, Special Category Status was short-lived. As part of the government's policy of "criminalisation", and coinciding with the end of internment, the new Secretary of State, Merlyn Rees, ended Special Category Status from March 1, 1976. Those convicted of terrorist offences after that date were housed in the eight new "H-Blocks" that had been constructed at Long Kesh, now officially HM Prison Maze. Older prisoners remained in separate compounds and retained their Special Category status.

H-Blocks
Republicans convicted of offences after March 1, 1976 were housed in the eight new "H-Blocks" that had been constructed at Long Kesh, now officially HM Prison Maze. The new Special Category status took away all of the rights that prisoners had received prior to 1976 such as civilian clothing and visitation. Prisoners began protesting these chages immediately after they were transeferred to the H-Blocks. Their first act of defiance was to refuse to wear the prison uniforms, stating that convicted criminals wear uniforms, not political prisoners. Not allowed their own clothes, they wrapped themselves in bedsheets. Prisoners participating in the protest were "on the blanket". By 1978 more than 300 men had joined the protest. The British government refused to yield. Prison guards soon refused to let the blanket protestors use the toilets without proper uniforms. The prisoners refused, and instead began to defecate within their own cells, smearing excrement on the walls. This began the "Dirty Blanket Protest." But again the new 1979 government of Margaret Thatcher stood firm.

Hunger strike
Republicans outside the prison took the battle to the media and both sides fought for public support. Inside the prison the prisoners took another step and organized a hunger strike.
On October 27, 1980, seven Republican prisoners refused food and demanded political status. In December they called off the hunger strike when the government appeared to concede their demands. However, the government immediately reverted to their previous stance, confident the prisoners would not start another strike. Bobby Sands, the leader of the Provisional IRA prisoners, and a number of others began a second action on March 1, 1981. Outside the prison in a major publicity coup, Sands was nominated for Parliament and won the Fermanagh & South Tyrone by-election, 1981 (April). But the British government was still resisting and on May 5, after 66 days on hunger strike, Sands died. Another nine hunger strikers died by the end of August. More than 100,000 people attended Bobby Sands's funeral in Belfast.

Breakout
On September 23, 1983, the Maze suffered the largest break-out by prisoners from a British prison. 38 prisoners hijacked a prison meals lorry and smashed their way out. One prison officer, James Ferris, died of a heart attack while being held captive at knifepoint, and another five were injured. Nineteen of the prisoners were soon recaptured, but the remainder escaped. One of the escapees was later involved in the 1984 Brighton hotel bombing.
In March 1997, an IRA escape attempt was foiled when a 40ft underground tunnel was found. The tunnel, which was fitted with electric lighting, led from H-block 7 and was only 80ft short of the perimeter wall.

Organisation
Over the 1980s the British government slowly introduced changes, granting what some would see as political status in all but name. Republican and loyalist prisoners were housed according to group. They organised themselves along military lines and exercised wide control over their respective H-Blocks. The Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF) leader Billy Wright was killed in December 1997 by Irish National Liberation Army (INLA) prisoners. The LVF wing also saw the only rape in the prison's history.

Peace process
The prisoners also played a significant role in the Northern Ireland peace process. On January 9, 1998, the British Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mo Mowlam, paid a surprise visit to the prison to talk to members of the Ulster Defense Association/Ulster Freedom Fighters (UDA/UFF) including Johnny Adair and Michael Stone. They had voted for their political representatives to pull out of talks. Shortly after Mowlam's visit, they changed their minds, allowing their representatives to continue talks that would lead to the Good Friday Agreement of April 10, 1998. Afterwards, the prison was emptied of its paramilitary prisoners as the groups they represented agreed to the ceasefire. In the two years following the agreement, 428 prisoners were released. On September 29, 2000, the remaining 4 prisoners at Maze were transferred to other establishments in Northern Ireland and the Maze prison was closed.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 10:43 AM

From what it seems to me, I think that the government was right in introducing interment, although I do appreciate the argument against it. They were faced with a growing menace, on both the Catholic and Protestant sides, who had means and the will to use violence to get there way. That being the case, what else could they do. Divis, they were not the same as concentration camps.

Guest with no name. I do actually concede to your argument and your history is correct. Yes, the bitterness of the Irish lies in its past. When I was refering to them having the same rights as the Men of Kent, I was talking about most of the 19th Century and up to 1922. It was not to help. Resentment against past treatment, long racial memories, the rise of nationalism in the 19th Centuries, lead to Ireland's break with Britain.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 10:52 AM

"If a filmaker like Kenneth Griffith felt so strongly about an untruth..should he not take it upon himself(with his theatrical heritage )and total calculation of the FACTS..the truth(again)to assemble a filmcrew-go to the scene of the crime ..turn on the camera and refuse to be evenhanded because ,as he rightly saw it,there waas never any REAL evenhandedness handed out to the CATHOLICS in Ireland..am i wrong here?/it is far better to have a point of veiw and the conviction of your interests.. coupled with the permission and finance to broadcast to millions of people...he did that,whether it be highlighting the plight of the lowest castes in India(incedently-that is where i first saw him speaking..at the Ambedkar society..where he was their president) or in support of the jews(Ben Gurion)and their great fight for their land..Griffith always tried to show us the otherside"

But there are always another side. Griffith is one of those people who loves to praise to the heavens one side while damming to Hell the other. His passion for the support of Isreal was matched by his contempt for the Palestinians. His support for the Republican cause in Ireland was equalled only by his lofty dismissal of the Protestants. Don't forget that the Boer War was fought on African soil... and Africans were barely mentioned in Griffiths films. A decent film maker would show all sides, contextualise it, and allow his audience to make up it's own mind.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 10:54 AM

Penguin, so you are saying that those Catholics that were interned deserved it ? by the way get your facts straight, no protestants were interned. Please don't tell me they weren't concentration camps, how would you have liked to have been locked up without charge and held from your family for four years ???????????????????????????????????????. Sorry no point in debating with a guesser.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 11:03 AM

I don't know about Long Kesh, but the H-Blocks most certainly held paramilitary protestant prisoners. Mad Dog Adiar (I think I have the name right) was one of many. Long Kesh and H-Blocks were prison camps, not concentration camps. Concentration camps were where you put whole populations of one sort or another, like Boers in South Africa or Jews in Germany. The prisoners in Long Kesh and the H Blocks were all suspected of carrying out terrorist activities. A government can't just sit back and do nothing. It has to take measures, and so they did. No, I would not like to be locked up, but if I carried out a bombing or a murder, I would deserve it.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 11:09 AM

I never mentioned the blocks, I said Long Kesh were the internment camp was which locked men up without charge. The blocks were not built until 1976 for sentenced prisioners. Read up on it before you mix the two up. Hundreds of men were locked up without charge, did they deserve it ???
I suppose they were only paddies anyway, good enough for them, similar to those locked up in English jails for 16 years before they agreed the were wrong to do so.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 11:18 AM

It is nothing to do with them being paddies. It is to do with the fact that the Provisonal IRA were highly organised, well financed, well armed, highly disciplined, and were dedicated to getting the British out of Northern Ireland by any means possible, by shootings, by bombings, in short, by terrorism. The government had no choice, especially as the majority of the population, namely the protestants, wanted to remain in the UK. For all intent and purpose, Long Kesh and the H-Blocks were the same, and to say otherwise is to split hairs.

I am aware that great injustices were done at the time, like the Birmingham 6, but that was down to paranoia, misleading forensic evidence, and bad police practice.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 12:05 PM

Long Kesh and the H Blocks the same ? So everyone locked up in the cages for four years without any charge or conviction was in your eyes a Provo ? At least the British government accepted internment didn't work, a lot more than can be said for you. Let's say I know more than a few who lay there and NEVER planted bombs or used a gun.
Clear where you stand. Are you in anyway related to Keith A. of Hereford

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 12:23 PM

Mistakes were made, which was regretable; but quite honestly, it was a serious attempt to take the sting out of the provos, which went, as usual, horribly wrong. However, the IRA proved brilliant at spin and public relations, and the British always played into their hands. Can you honestly say that those interened, although may "NEVER planted bombs or used a gun", were not involved in IRA terrorism in other ways? We have only your word. However, to go back to my original point, Long Kesh, whatever it's wrongs, cannot be compaired to concentration camps. Only those suspected of criminal acts, however unjustly, were imprisoned: no-one else, not their families.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 01:13 PM

If that egg was opened it would smell terribly like, Teribus, notice the long winded replies,and he gets it wrong about the first prisoners interned, Johnny Adair was hardly out of nappies when the civil rights workers were lifted in the early 1970s.
I know of two protestants who were involved in the Civil Rights movement, they were John McGuffin and a man called Bunting.
Of the rest they were all involved in Civil Rights no Loyalist was held,fathers and sons were held that`s going close to families, one 67 year old Henry Heaney died in the Kesh, he was interned with his two sons, there were many other fathers and sons.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 01:18 PM

Just got a pm there, now know his identity.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 03:49 PM

Is Penguin Egg a reference to Nic Jones?

I tend to think Nic has enough problems without being connected with what you think.

use your own name, like I do, at least if everybody thinks and calls you an idiot, its on your acount.

For what its worth, I think it virtually a matter of record that the leaderships on every side in this particular scrap have been less than brilliant. Every side has missed real opportunities for peace and reconciliation and occasionally it has looked as though nobody has been much interested.   Priggish self righteousness rings a false sound from every quarter.

also I think its a bit undignified scrapping over this poor blokes bones. say something nice if you can. otherwise leave him alone.

It would be nice to hear from someone who had some insight into this man's skills and what made his work so remarkable. rather than the usual cacophony of my lot's better than your lot.
big al whittle

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:48 PM

I see nothing wrong in using the name Penguin Egg. It is a folk music reference which is appropriate to Mudcat. As for my opinions, they are just that, my opinions. I also see nothing wrong in discussing these subjects in this obit. Griffith courted controversy all his life, so we carry it on after his death.

Guest with a name that only divis knows and whose syntax positively leaves you breathless (seriously, trying reading it out loud!), you really are splitting hairs. I don't care if there were 2 protestants involved with the Civil Rights Movement. I KNOW that Adair was too young to be in Long Kesh. It was later he was imprisoned. I have noticed a pattern from certain quarters in Mudcat. They pick away at some small point, ignoring everything else you have said, in order to swerve you away from the main argument. The bigger picture is deliberately obscured. That is very frustrating.

Ian Williams AKA Penguin Egg, in tribute to the Nic Jones album.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:30 PM

Well done, Ian. I have followed your Mudcat 'career' with interest and even when we have 'crossed swords' you have behaved in a gentlemany manner and had the good grace to admit when you have been wrong - On the very odd occasion that you were I may add:-) This has been a fascinating exchange between yourself and Divis, who I also have a great admiration for, with very little of the usual mud (cat?) slinging that these threads usualy degenerate into. Well done to you both.

I do not know Mr Griffith's work so I have no axe to grind in that area. I must say I do get pissed off occasionaly with the anti-Brit feeling that comes over but I get over it. What the hell? What is a Brit? Not me. Nor anyone I know! It is an ideal that is best left to die. I have said on another thread we, the ordinary people are not enemies. We never have been. Take it out on the government, the politicians and the money men but for heavens sake don't start to hate each other. It's what they want us to do.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 06:07 AM

Well, DtG, it's not often a mudcatter makes me blush, but I am blushing now.Thank you very much for the compliment. Yes, our paths have crossed, haven't they. Wasn't it about the Muslims? Incidentally, I have probably been wrong more often than it appears. I've become adept at covering my ignorance up. Again, many thanks.

I too get pissed off with the anti-Brit feeling that is sometimes expressed in Mudcat. It's not that we don't often deserve it-we often do- but it is often taken out of context and held up as unique to perfidious Albion. Britain (or England) is bad and that is all there is to it. Very often there is a (barely) hidden nationalist agenda.

Is your name really weelittledrummer, weelittledrummer? What were your parents thinking.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 06:32 AM

Penguin Egg, it is not anti British feeling as much as anti British government policy on issues such as internment without trail as an example. I have a lot of very good friends in England, Scotland and Wales. You are right, I do not hide my desire for unity for Ireland and I have spoken strongly against much of what has happened in Ireland in my living lifetime. I am a Republican which no doubt you are aware of, but in no way do I attack any individual such as yourself for being British.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Fiolar
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 10:10 AM

Another bit of info to add to the thread. Vincent Van Gogh's younger brother fought in the Boer War and was captured by the British. He committed suicide rather than be confined.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 10:29 AM

As did five in the Long Kesh camp, none of the five had ever faced a court or had any conviction, not even a motoring offence. One was 19. Then again if you read a few posts above, they deserved to be there.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:01 PM

I don't think anyone thinks they deserved to be there, Divis. I just read through some of the posts and it did come across a little like that but I think PE tried to take the sting out of it a little later, as in it was a serious attempt to take the sting out of the provos, which went, as usual, horribly wrong.

I would take that to be an admission that the government were wrong and therefore the people in LK did not deserve to be there. It was a very infortunate knee jerk reaction that opened the interment camps. Unlike here, where a knee jerk sometimes offends people, when the government jerks in an upward direction it kills:-(

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:08 PM

Penguin Egg let me put you in the picture, 0n the 14th of August 1971 over 500 men were interned by the Brits, all of those interned were members of the civil rights movement the Peoples Democracy.

No loyalists were interned, it was some years afterwards that loyalists were interned, although all of the explosions on power lines and reservoirs from 1969 were carried out by the UVF.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:17 PM

Dave, hope your doing okay with all going on in your life at that end, watch and see it will be a new lease of life for you both.

Dave the remark he made which was " Can you honestly say that those interened, although may "NEVER planted bombs or used a gun", were not involved in IRA terrorism in other ways?"

Christ talk about making you mind up on people you never met. If he wants I can pass his comments onto several people who would love to answer that question, including within my own family !

Next time a close friend of mine who is a heart specialist calls down, must ask him was he involved in IRA terrorism ? Well he must have been according to this guy, he was not locked up for nothing !

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:17 PM

Yes, very well thanks Divis - We will know better after the op tomorrow - Keyhole stuff if it goes well so keep your fingers crossed:-)

It was that line in particular I noticed when I said it did come across that way but in fairness PE has made further comment later which I think comes across as part apology and part toning down. I could be wrong but the point in question I believe to be one of those knee jerk reactions which I was talking about. And after all it was a question to which you only had to answer "Yes, I can honestly say that!"

Perhaps we can all just watch the film and, hopefuly, get on with our lives and each other:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:19 PM

Whoops - cross threads - the film in question was "The wind that shakes the barley" - Trouble with trying to multi-task:-) The rest of the comment still stands.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST,gwen
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:16 AM

I have followed your discussion with interest, but feel I have to interject, on two counts:

I knew Kenneth GRiffith well. He came out to SA many times,and my family befriended him in Mafeking in 1967, where he was filming, and maintained a lifelong relationship with him. We got to understand some of the anomalies driving him.
Kenneth was a revisionist historian - it is true, he had a tendency to tilt at any windmill that stirred his romantic fantasies. IN South Africa's case, he latched onto the Boer cause and while he was certainly correct in theway he portrayed the British, he failed to mention the atrocities committed by BOTH sides against the real victims of the war, the blacks. We had so many fights with Kenneth about this - also about his peculiar attitude towards apartheid. He sometimes sounded like an apologist for it - and I suspect he really was. I heard him make some absolutely appalling, abysmally myopic statements about this, and I also heard him equate the British concentration camps with Hitler's concentration camps - a spurious, absurd, horribly ignorant comparison which ended up in one of our most memorable brawls. (I am Jewish.) But it ended, like all our brawls, with the realisation that one should not take his utterances too seriously. He loved to shock, he loved to claim the moral high ground, he needed the knowledge that he was rocking as many boats as possible.

NEVERTHELESS: he was a wonderfully warm, generous, compassionate, highly sensitive man whose emotional make-up led him on some strange intellectual journeys. He was a provocateur who relished outraging people, I think because he carried a lot of anger in him from early childhood issues.

My second point: I see your comments about "Breaker Morant". SInce you are discussing errant historians, you should know that the film - like the book on which it based, by Australian Kit Denton - is absolutely littered with errors, both about Morant's life and death, and about the circumstances of his trial. I could enumerate these for you, but it would take a very long time. Denton captured the romantic soul of the man, but really did very little homework indeed. I also found the film very moving, but it is horribly inaccurate. The real HArry Morant was a far more complex character, and his crime was considerably worse than the one the movie portrays. But the movie certainly got Kitchener right, and showed him up for the filthy hypocrite he was.

Sorry to enter this discussion uninvited. But I was really upset by some of your comments about Kenneth. He was, indeed, self-righteous. And yes, he did speak down to people. But he was neither evil nor malicious, and ultimately he died a very difficult, lonely death, after intense suffering. He really does not deserve some of the hideous things you people have said - particularly regarding his place of burial!!!! His aim with the Boer War, certainly, was to portray the suffering on both sides. See his film, "Men of the Widow", with interviews he conducted with surviving soldiers.

He was also a consummate actor, and remained one all his life. See "The ENglishman who went up a hill and came down a mountain", "Four weddings and a funeral", "I'm all right, JAck", and many many other fine films.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:53 AM

Wow - thanks Gwen. That was a fascinating insight. Realy good to see someone who actualy knows what they are talking about add so much to these discussions. Sounds like you were blessed with a relationship that probably meant much to both Mr Griffith and your family.

As to his being a revisionist historian. I wouldn't worry too much about that. All history is based on someones views. I accept that some views are more accurate than others but all historians ultimately cast their own shadow on things. Remember that the act of recording an event often changes it. So ultimatley all historians are, to some extent, revionist.

Thanks again. Don't apologise for joining in. Your views and anecdotes are more than welcome.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:54 AM

Gwen you were lucky to have known such a fine man. You are welcome here.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST,gwen
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:47 AM

THank you both for your kind comments, and for hearing me out.

Also, Mr Dave the Gnome, about revisionists: I agree with you, it is always subjective, of course, tho' there are fundamental facts that need to be respected within an interpretation.

Someone on this forum speculated that Kenneth had been asked to leave South AFrica. That is categorically untrue! Such a thing never happened: the only British historian who has ever been asked to leave this country was David Irving, maybe one of you is confusing Kenneth with him (though that is one heck of a quantum leap - from Irving to Kenneth Griffith!)

Irving was kicked out of this country after his last attempt at public speaking here, sometime in the 1980s. When he reapplied to enter SA, he was informed that though British subjects do not require visas to enter South AFrica, in his case the SA government was going to make an exception.
Thank God.

And to Mr Penguin Egg: possibly, if you view Kenneth's outpourings within the context of, say, his championing of the Untouchables of India, you will see why I am saying that for him, finding the underdog - any underdog - was crucial. Where he could not find, he created one. Thus his (crazy!) championing also of Zola Budd, the Afrikaans girl who was barred from running in the Olympics because she refused to renounce apartheid (the subject of more brawls with us). And his championing of Gay Liberation. (Please note, I am NOT in any way denigrating that worthy and important movement! Simply illustrating how Kenneth sought out, and then loudly extolled, any group of people or individual he could portray as outcasts. His choice of subject matter was guided not so much by rational seeking as by intuitive floundering towards situations where he might find an injustice, real or imagined, to protest against. Very often, though, he did get it right: his film on Tom Payne was superb ("The most Valuable Englishman WHo Ever Lived"), also his films on CLive of INdia and on Jesus.

THank you again for letting me join the forum.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:55 AM

Thanks for that Gwen. Nice to see you here.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:09 AM

Too true, Gwen, but wouldn't the news and history be boring if they just stuck to the facts:-)

Glad you found us. Was it purely Kenneth's Obit that got you here or do you have an interest in Folk music as well? I would be interested to know what type of Folk music stirs the spirit in SA nowadays.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:46 AM

It just shows you what happens when you stay away from an interesting thread for too long. Someone like Gwen comes along and in her own quiet way, shakes the whole thread up. I am glad she cleared up this whole thing about Griffith and South Africa. However, after reading Gwen's comments about Griffith, I cannot say that she has made me change my mind about him as she admits that he was self-righteous and that he did talk down to people. I never knew him personally, but I am sure that he was a splendid man to know - contentious people are rarely boring. It would be nice if they repeated a number of his key films so that we can judge them again. His film on Tom Paine was not too bad although, again, I found his partisan view made me question what he said rather than make me accept it.

I am sorry about the comment I made about where he should be buried. It was crass and silly and I should not have said it.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST,Gwen
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 09:07 AM

Thank you, Mr Penguin Egg, and also Mr Dave the Gnome, for your generous response.I got onto the thread because of Kenneth's obit, but yes, I am passionately interested in music of all kinds. I am afraid, though, that I am ignorant about what you would categorise as "folk music"? Do you mean traditional music, or are you asking me what is being generated in this part of the world nowadays?

I can tell you, for what it is worth, that there is an absolute explosion of creativity in this country and elsewhere on this continent (particularly Senegal) right now, a fusion mostly of traditional rhythms and instruments with New Age influences like hip-hop and House, and also - magically, wonderfully! - a fusion with classical Western forms. I would love to know whether you are familiar at all with SA music nowadays? Do you listen to any of it? And do you know of an artist called Ismael Lo (Senegalese)?

Please tell me more about your discussion? When I think of "folk music", I am not sure where the boundaries are - or whether there should be any, in fact. I think also a lot about Bert Jansch, whom I always respected a great deal, and the other members of Pentangle.

Am I completely off track?

Thank you again, all, for your generosity and warm welcome.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Fiolar
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 09:17 AM

Gwen:There is a magazine called "Froots" (formerly "Folk Roots") which covers "folk" music on a world wide scale. While I personally prefer Irish, Scottish and English traditional music, I am sure there are numerous others who have a wide taste.
Its website is
www.frootsmag.com

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 09:19 AM

Absorbing stuff about Griffith. And interesting views on Breaker
Morant. The one thing not said about that film is that it was as rare opportunity to hear Edward Woodward's fine (trained) singing voice.

Penguin Egg, you must be one of the very few people left who think the 1971 internment was on balance OK. That and Bloody Sunday between them were what caused 30 years of turmoil in the north. Edward Heath who was the British prime minister at the time, and Reginald Maudling (home secretary, I think) both subsequently acknowledged that giving in to William Faulkner (Northern IReland prime minister) on the issue was a serious mistake with far-reaching consequences.

I'm heartened to see so much support for Collins in this thread, which I read as implied criticism of De Valera, since I don't think anyone can logically support both men. Ah...if it had been Dev who died and Collins who lived, in those early days of the free state, an independent 32 counties would have been secured generations ago.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 09:29 AM

Gwen, rather than continue the discussion on African music here I have created another thread. Click here to get to it.

Thanks for the response and all the info so far. Stay with us and you may find that it is not all argument:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 09:55 AM

Well done Fiolar for staring this Thread, a fascinating insight into a great mans work.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST,Peter Anstead
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 09:12 PM

Dear Gwen...I had also read that Griffith,whilst touring with the "old vic"in the early 50's was asked to write a piece in the Durban Times whereby he criticized the apartheid system he saw,was he not asked to leave soon after,i believe this to be in his autobiography.

Subject: RE: Obit: Actor Kenneth Griffith (June 2006)
From: GUEST,Gwen
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 02:06 AM

Dear Mr Anstead,

Yes,in fact, that is correct. My assertion earlier in this thread that he was "never asked to leave" was in response to assertions that he was thrown out because of ENDORSING the apartheid system, which was something one of the participants had speculated on.   
However, I would still point out that whatever views Kenneth expressed on the subject in the 1950s, he nevertheless failed to include the black population of South Africa in any of his documentaries or histories on it. That is why I said that I sometimes suspected him of indeed being an apologist for the system, and it was a very sore point between my family and him, resulting in many raucous arguments and brawls. But it did not in the end ever estrange us from him, because we realised that his innate compassion and humanity were the truer reflection of who he was, whatever soapbox he happened to be standing on. He was capable of a great many contradictions, and I learnt not to take his political stances too seriously. He was a man with an insatiable appetite for romanticising causes that to most other people were insufferable, even repugnant, particularly within the SOuth AFrican context. I have admitted that. But I have also added - just as insistently - that that is only one aspect of who he was.
I found the emotional truth of Kenneth's autobiography to lie in its tone, and its wistfulness, rather than in its outbursts and proclamations.