folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff

Subject: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:09 PM

Moved to music section as suggested by various posters.
joe clone

Whenever I read a novel which has place names or proper names in a language I don't know, I always try to figure out how to pronounce them, properly. I've just finished a good yarn called "Simeon's Bride" written by Alison G. Taylor; a murder mystery which takes place in Wales.

Would any of you who are Welsh and/or know how to speak it, please help me out? Here's some of them:

Dewi Prys (one Mudcatter has told me this would be "Dew ee Prees" and normally would be a first name. In the book they are used as a first and last name.)

Also, there is a reference, when one character goes from the west towards Derbyshire (if that's not made up for the book,) up into the Pennines "through Buxton, and into a town distinguished by street after street of Victorian terraced houses, by tall old mills standing foursquare and turreted behind high walls, and by its inhabitants,remnants of invading Saxon hordes, their voices grating, words fouled by flat "a"s and mysterious dialect."

What is meant by "flat 'a's etc.?"

Also, maybe not strictly Welsh, but has anyone ever heard of rubbing stone treads with paraffin to put a sheen on their surface? Or, soured milk if one were too poor to use precious paraffin?

I was also interested in reading a small reference to a Welsh martyr, William Davies, who apparently pissed(US) off QE the First. I can look him up on google, but would still like to hear anything you'd like to share.

I was a bit shocked to see "Nigger" used in the following and wondered if it had a different meaning than I've ever known. (The book was published in 1995.):

..because John Jones was the fly in the psychiatrist's soothing balm, the nasty Nigger poking his head up from the great woodpile of rationalizations and justifications and defences for the indefensible.

Have any of you been to the Menai Straits and/or the Great Orme? What does "Orme" mean?

It would be great fun to learn more about Wales and its culture. I plan to look for more books by Taylor.

Thanks a bunch!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:04 PM

Isn't this folklore and thus destined for the upper region? I got a good reply up there once on the right pron. for Ar Hyd Y Nos.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM

here ya go kat http://www.llandudno.com/orme.html

The Menai Strait is what seperates the Island of Anglesey from the mainland and a great place to sail...

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: sian, west wales
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:56 PM

I think you'd understand the pronunciation better if you thought, "DEwee Prees": "De" with a short e, as in 'pet'. Prees is the beginning of anglicization of ap Rhys - 'son of Rhys'. Price, Brice, Bryce, Breese, et al are all further incarnations of this. As well as the loss completely of 'ap', which gave us all the Rhys or Rees, or even Reeses names. (Happens elsewhere too. i.e. ap Ywain become Owen, Owens, Bowen, Bowens, etc.)

Housewives all over Wales - and I imagine throughout the British Isles - had their little tricks to out-do their neighbours in housekeeping (something to which I can NOT relate) and I've read academic essays about the vanities involved in cleaning the front doorstep of terrace houses. I know that in many parts of Wales where slate doorsteps are the norm, women polished the surfaces in very specific pattern which eventually wore themselves permanently into the surface - a way of expressing yourself creatively in a very dreary world. Seems to me that they had various secrets for making them shine, and paraffin rings a bell ...

The Menai Straits are indeed very popular for sailing but I'll bet Dave can also tell you how perilous they can be. Fast tides.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Mo the caller
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:06 PM

Yes the Great Orme is a hill or headland on Llandudno. I live a few miles from the welsh border and all I know is Ll is pronounced 'cl' (and I expect that's a simplification).

As for the "nigger in the woodpile" it is a saying, like "the fly in the ointment" meaning a disadvantage or drawback (I'm not sure if they mean quite the same). It was certainly used when I was growing up, not so much now perhaps. Though some people get very heated about the "stupidity" of "political correctness" and will insist that e.g. no-one could possibly object to a harmless children's toy (not my view now)

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:13 PM

Been to the Great Orme loads of times - seem to remember even having a pint with Mudguard there. Never been on the Menai Straits but crossed lots of times by road.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:15 PM

Derbyshire isn't made up. It's an English county, and very beautiful. If you started from North Wales and headed east, right through Lancashire, you would then find yourself in Derbyshire, roughly halfway across England. Buxton is in the Peak District, which is a National Park. The accent and dialect are very different from Welsh.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 09:07 PM

Depending on the type of stone from which the front doorstep was made, there were a variety of methods of cleaning. A perfectly clean doorstep was paramount in the lives of most town-dwelling women. Happily, fashions have changed!
In the south of England most steps were of Bath or Portland stone - a form of limestone. They were cleaned with a "holystone" and then whitened. I cannot remember the name of the whitening agent (although I sold them when working in my parent@s shop in the '50's) but it was a block the size of a large bar of soap and was used with water. I berlieve the holystone was a block of pumice stone, similar to that used when scrubbing the decks of ships (of for removing hard skin from your feet).
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:52 PM

Thanks, everyone!! That helps me, muchly, to get some things envisioned better in my mind. I should like to see the Great Orme, sometime. DavetheM, fast tides, eh?

Topsie, I though there was a Derbyshire in England, but in the book, it didn't seem that far away from the setting in Wales, so I wasn't sure about the accent. (I forget that several hundreds of miles there can bring one to different countries, unlike out here where it can leave one in the same State as they started in.)

sian, thanks! I had guessed it was Welsh for "Davey." I really appreciate the further explanations and the derivatives. I love languages and love learning more about them.

Mo, thanks. I thought I undertood the "fly in the ointment" kind of thing, but was shocked the author chose to use that word. P.C. or not, it's not one I would choose as a writer.

Bonecruncher, interesting. A friend of mine who'd lived in Germany used to tell me how important it was to the hausfraus to have their front steps perfectly cleaned, swept and polished every morning. I haev sandstone outside my back door. Thankfully, I don't think it can be polished!:-)

Again, thanks to you all. Would love to hear more personal experiences if anyone would like to share...the archealogical stuff at Great Orme, sailing the Menai, etc.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:57 PM

Yes the tidal currents are bad, I prefered sailing from Holyhead. It was there that I learned to love powerboats, because rain, offshore winds and fast tides caused me many a long trip back by rowing ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 02:56 AM

Try and get hold of the 'Dark is Rising' sequence by Susan Cooper - or at least 'The Grey King'. In that book, Bran (pronounced Brahn) explains the pronounciation of Welsh to Will Stanton in a way that has served me well over the years.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: sian, west wales
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:41 AM

Of course, the other fairly well known factoid about Llandudno is that Alice Liddell's family had a summer home there for several years - she of "Alice in Wonderland" fame. I don't think anyone's ever proven that Lewis Carroll ever was there, but I think there are a few Alice-related touristy things in the area. I remember walking through an Alice 'grotto' in Happy Valley back in the late '50s.

I think I saw a documentary on the Great Orme recently. Interesting. Rare plants, and the bronze age dig especially.

Re: books, the Brother Cadfael (pr. CAD vile) book, "Morbid Taste for Bones", is set just about 10 miles inland from Llandudno, if memory serves.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:47 AM

I'd like to know where the character travelling into Derbyshire was meant to be going. If you come from the west, that will be from Macclesfield, and the next town going west is Bakewell, which has a few mills but isn't exactly replete with them. Even New Mills (for which he'd have to dogleg north-east) isn't the Dickensian dark satanic hell that it sounds, it's actually quite pretty.

As for flat a's, I'll get the tuner out before I speak next time. Think of 'bath'. Dahn sarf, that's pronounced 'bahth', USAians say 'bearth', oop north it's got a short crashing a.

I don't think the folks are remnants of invading Anglo-Saxon whordes(*), I doubt if anyone really wanted to invade Derbyshire , more got pushed there by folks who wouldn't let them stay in the better farmland round about.

It wasn't just the doorstep that got scrubbed with a donkeystone in Salford when I was a kid. In the 'respectable' streets, they scrubbed the whole flag pavement out to the kerb. It's said that when the trams (streetcars to t'other lot) reached Droylsden, the housewives were so houseproud that they blackleaded the tram rails.

(*) Useful word (C)Paul Burke 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: 8_Pints
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 08:29 AM

Hi Mo,

Minor correction: 'Ll' is not pronounced with a 'cl' in my experience but more like 'LAN' where one blows softly through the mouth for the first letter.

Nothing quite like it in English so it is understandable why it is easily mis-pronounced.

Used in combination 'Llanfair' would trabslate to the Church of Mary, or St. Mary's as in the famous Llanfair PG village in Anglesey.

Bob vG

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 09:09 AM

Llandudno being Saint Tudno

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Ferrara
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 09:11 AM

Going back to "a nigger in the woodpile," I heard it used a a kid (1940's). It seemed to mean a hidden problem, like sneaky clauses in the fine print of a contract, or some unpleasant or tricky factor that was being covered up, that wasn't right out in plain sight. Something to watch out for. Or hidden treachery, say on the part of a used car salesman. The image is that if this guy is hidden, he's up to no good.

But that's not how it's used in the quote at the top. There it's more like an unpleasant fact that is revealing itself, that can't be hidden or ignored in spite of efforts to hide it.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 11:44 AM

I certainly concur with Paul on the geography of the place - I have walked around most of the peak district and the mills and terraces are there, but not in the numbers suggested.

What about further south and east into Derbs though? I must admit my knowledge of Derby, Chesterfield and those environs is sadly lacking:-(

As to the Ango-Saxon invaders. Hmmmm. Looks like the writer got their info from this Wikipedia article. Knowing the way that site works I would have serious doubts as to it's veracity! I always thought peak was a corruption of Pict but perhaps Paul can confirm or deny that. Certainly places like the fort on top of Mam Tor are Iron Age and precede the Anglo Saxon invader by a good few centuries.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 11:54 AM

I meant Saxon invader of course. I don't think the Anglo bit came in until they megred with the earlier Angles did it?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: HuwG
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:09 PM

As a South Walian expatriate in Northern Derbyshire, I have been looking for any evidence of Welsh place names locally, and found none, with the possible exception of Mam Tor mentioned above by DtG. All settlement names are Anglo Saxon in origin; Hope, or hop, meaning valley, is a common root, as is "ton", meaning town.

Going due east from North Wales you actually hit Staffordshire; but it doesn't require much compass deviation to get to Macclesfield. The mill towns of Derbyshire occupy the valleys which wind into the uplands of the "Dark Peak". From the description at the head of the thread, the mill town may have been Bollington, adjacent to Macclesfield. (Going north you have in turn, New Mills, Glossop, Mossley.)

The road from Macclesfield to Buxton is known as the Cat and Fiddle Road, from a pub which stands at the highest point. It is known for a steady toll of motorcycle deaths every summer, as the rider every bike over 250cc in half the north west of England tries to prove they are the next "Foggy" (motorcycle champion Carl Fogarty).

The "Dark Peak" rocks are Upper Carboniferous (Pennsylvanian) shales, sandstones and grits. Buxton lies in the "White Peak", in Lower Carboniferous (Mississippian) limestones.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:31 PM

Looks like all the waters around Angelsey can be dodgy. Just read this which gave me a bit of a chuckle. Could have been nasty though!

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:10 PM

HuwG, you've got it, I think. I wasn't sure if she'd made up towns' and pubs' names or not, so didn't include the further info. She DID write, "Beyond Macclesfield, he began the long climb into the Pennines, stopping for dinner at the Cat and Fiddle Inn on the crest of a high moor, before the last leg of his journey through Buxton, and into a town" (see rest of paragraph posted above.)

So, does is make more sense to those of you who were wondering about her geography? Sorry I didn't include that bit in the previous quote. It also mentions the character checking into "a small hotel at the foot of Snake Pass..."

Jon, the puir idgits...good thing the Coast Guard was there!

Thanks, all!!

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:21 PM

That makes sense kat, although I've never yet managed a pint in the Cat and Fiddle which is the route we have used mostly when going to from Norfolk/N Wales.

The Snake is another road. Sheffield to Glossop.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Crane Driver
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:34 PM

"Orme" is from an old Norse word meaning "serpent" - the Great Orme is a serpentine rock formation sticking out to sea. Rather like the Worm's Head near where we live. The Vikings settled around the coast of Wales, and a lot of place names are Norse rather than Welsh - Swansea was originally "Sweyne's Ey" from an island settlement by a Viking called Sweyn (a common Norse name). Rhossili is pronounced much as it looks - Rossilly - but what would you make of Cwmrhydiceirw?

Andrew

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 07:27 PM

Welsh (or perhaps Celtic?) place names in Derbyshire - Try Kinder Scout. I believe it to be derived from something akin to Cwm dy scwd - Sorry, can't find the proper translation or spelling!

I am sure I read it somewhere. Perhaps I dreamt it as I sunbathed on Kinder and was burnt to a cinder...

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: HuwG
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 08:24 PM

Guess who lives in Glossop, at one end of the Snake Pass ?

The "... small hotel at the foot of the Snake Pass" might be either the "Royal Oak", a pub/bed and breakfast on the main road itself, or the "Wind in the Willows", a residential two-star place opposite the Golf Course, about half a mile from the main road on a lane known locally as the "Derbyshire Level" (it follows the 600' contour line).

The Snake Pass incidentally (also referred to as the A57), got its name from a pub near to the Glossop end; the "Snake Inn" was named from the coat of arms of the Cavendish family, which featured a snake, and the road was historically the "Snake Inn Pass". Over time, the road has become known as "The Snake" and the inn as the "Snake Pass Inn". It does run through some of the best scenery in England. (No part of England compares with any in Wales).

The name implies a tortuous winding road. In fact, it is not too bad, but parts of it traverse active landslide surfaces, and the road develops cracks and sudden dips and "ski jumps". It is a never-ending job maintaining the road about a mile east of the inn; there is a veritable stratigraphy of layers of tarmac and hasty patches.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 08:46 PM

LOL, I love it, HuwG! Thanks for such descriptive passages. That "Hasty Patches" sounds like the name of a a fast cow pony in these parts. This is too kewl!!

Forgot to say thanks to LtS for the book receommendations. Also, I have seen the Brother Cadfael BBC programs and look forward to reading the books.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: leeneia
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 10:53 PM

I've developed a theory about the mysterious Welsh "Ll,"

I learned from my voice teacher that English uses L to represent two different sounds. One is at the front of the mouth, as in "like." The other is at the back of the throat, as in "old."

If you make the L as in "old" and hold it, you produce a sibilant which I think is the Welsh Ll. I think this explains why a sound which I thought was related to ch was spelled Ll.
------
Thanks for talking about the book, kat. I will look for Alison G. Taylor at the liberry.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:06 AM

Bollington - has mills, but is quite pleasant and due north from Macc. New Mills and Glossop in a straightish line north. Cat and Fiddle due east, straight on to Buxton. Chesterfield right out past the peak, some mills but more steelworks. Wirksworth small and pleasant, had mills in a rural environment, making government red tape (true!!). Derby out of the peak, south west, mills and urban poverty (cf King of Rome).

But to get to the Snake from Buxton you have to go north, via Hayfield and Glossop, so perhaps Glossop or hadfield is what's meant.

The Anglo-Saxon period is very confusing culturally. We really don't know whether the indigenous population was exterminated or ethnically cleansed by invaders, died of plague, or lived on and converted to the Saxon language (like most Irish speak english, but are still ethnically Irish). My bet is a combination of all three, with death and eviction reserved mainly for the landowning classes, as few people would cross 150 miles of rough sea in an open boat to get up at 5 on a winter's morning to shovel manure. They'd prefer to take over the workforce intact.

There are quite a few names indicating continuity- a lot of Waltons (the Briton's farm), and almost all the river names (Dove, Noe, Derwent, Trent, Amber, Goyt, Wye....). And interesting hints that Christianity might have continued from Roman times through Saxon times, in a number of Eccles place names (Latin Ecclesia, Welsh Eglwys, but English Church). I have my own ideas about Augustine's mission which belong in another discussion.

It seems that land ownership became much more of an issue in Saxon times, as Welsh names seem to show a preponderance of toponymics and dedications to saints, while Saxon names are predominantly in the form of (xxx)'s (feature), as Osmaston, Wirksworth, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: sian, west wales
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:18 AM

No, the Ll can't be pronounced from the back of the throat (if I follow you, leeneia). The tongue position is the same for both examples, isn't it? So, place your tongue in the L position and blow out. That's "ll". Of course, you can then get into the Welsh learners' argument re: blowing equally on each side, blowing on the left only, or right only, and are these differences attached to regional predelictions. I mean - please, get a life, eh?

(Ch is like the German one - but I always feel that it's lighter, less phlegmy.) (Is phlegmy a word?)

Dave, you might have something with Kinder Scout. I doubt if the names of settlements would have any great Welsh connection but geographical features would be more likely to hold on to old names (i.e. prior to the Saxons or Angles or whoever it was took over once the Welsh retreated to the western hills). Derbyshire would have been 'Welsh' at a time when the Welsh language had evolved from an earlier, and more general, 'Celtic' language.

Cwm Ysgwyd would be the valley that shakes. So - either it was prone to earthquakes (not impossible) or we're getting to a point where we should stop making clumsy stabs and find ourselves a proper linguist! And that certainly wouldn't be me!

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: HuwG
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:24 AM

Earthquakes ... not really. Landslides, however, are far more likely. Mam Tor is known as the "shivering mountain". The engineers who tried to put the A624 across its face really ought to hang their heads in shame.

I once attended a meeting of the Yorkshire Geology Society, in which someone calculated when the Mam Tor landslide will stabilise. He reckoned in about nine hundred years or so. He couldn't say whether that will be morning or afternoon.

Most Peak District landslides result from glacial oversteepening (glaciers gouge valleys into a 'U' shape with steep walls), combined with the geology, which has the competent Kinder Grits (coarse sandstones) above the less competent Mam Tor shales and Yoredale series (mixed shales and sandstones). In this context, "competent" means able to maintain its integrity. The shales are liable to slump, or flow or deform; and are also less resistant to erosion and undercutting by streams.

The result is some spectacular rotational slip landslides; mostly during the aftermath of the last ice age. However, "landslide" doesn't necessarily mean a catastrophic collapse. Landslides can proceed quietly over a period of hundreds of years, as in the case of Mam Tor, or the slumping which affects the Snake Pass (which I mentioned in a post above).

There are the traces of several such slips on the north-eastern face (i.e. the Hayfield side, adjacent to Kinder Downfall) of Kinder Scout, although movement on these seems to have stabilised. If they were still active in the iron age or whenever, then "Cwmysgwyd" might well be a deserved descriptive name for the hill. Well done, Sian. I stand corrected.

Kinder Scout does possess local names for some of its features which are undoubtedly Anglo-Saxon in origin. "Fairbrook Naze", "Grindsbrook" ("Ringing Roger"? I can't find any Celtic roots in that name). But the hill is a big feature.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: sian, west wales
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:42 AM

Did I correct you? Would I?? I think I was just following up on Dave's comment which sounds like it may have started us in the right direction after all. He mentioned 'sgwd' which I realized would be 'ysgwyd'. Dialectically, opening 'y's are usually dropped. Other things happen in spoken Welsh, i.e. 'sgytwad' would be a Swansea valley way of saying 'a shake' as in I've had a shake, or a shock. (There are attempts to get sgytwad used for 'milkshake' but my gang prefer 'sigldi-fuwch' - or shakey cow. Hasn't caught on - yet.)

The 'Welsh', or those Celts who had begun to speak and write in something recognizable as Welsh, would have been up as far as t'other side of Edinburgh in the 6th Century so that's why I thought it was late enough for the geographical features to be Welsh, but for the actual villages to be more a mark of those who came after.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:46 AM

This is becoming fascinating:-) The Valley that shakes certainly fits the bill. One of the most spectacular view you can get from a road in England is, in my opinion, as you come over the high pass between the Hope valley and the vale of Edale with Mam Tor on your right - The vale of Edale spreads out before you with Kinder looming in the background like a giant dinosaur dropping. Having walked across the top of it I can assure you that this description is even more apt then:-)

Is Kinder the only place in the country where the highest point is called a 'low' btw? Kinder Low is one of the many trig points on Kinder and, if I remember rightly, the highest!

The Welsh / celtic naming of mountains on the pennines is perhaps more common than people think. Of the top of my head there are at least 2 in Yorkshire - Pen-y-ghent and Gragareth both sound pretty Celtic to me. Although I guess the latter should have been Gragaredd? I am sure there are loads more.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:48 AM

I must get round to reading the Mabinogion btw - I have had a copy, beaultifly illustrated by Alan Lee, for years but never got round to it - Trying to pronounce the words has always put me off;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 09:22 AM

An offshoot, perhaps...speaking of the geological formations, I am reminded of the next book I have picked up, "Ireland" by Frank Delaney, in which the old Storyteller starts out by describing the way the land became formed through migration of a HUGE ice flow, etc. Fascinating as is this thread. Thanks so much and please continue!

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 09:47 AM

Kat,

You can find all the Welsh (and Derbyshire) places on http://maps.google.co.uk/. Clicking on "satellite" will get you an aerial photograph instead of the map. You can also plot the journey from say, Llandudno to Buxton or the Cat & Fiddle to the Snake Pass.

Happy hunting

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 11:19 AM

You will enjoy the book, kat. There are others I have enjoyed better, but this one has a very good story line, fairly factual basis, but a fairly predictable ending. Overall though, a good read.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 12:37 PM

Siân:
(Is phlegmy a word?) If it is it would be good for Scrabble players....

Quick run downstairs, check "Official Scrabble Words" (2nd edition)

... Yep, it's in there, so I feel confident it's a valid word, though I would not wish to appear too phlegmatic on the matter.

If anyone has a contrary opinion, come on, spit it out!

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: sian, west wales
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 01:49 PM

Right. This Christmas, at the family Scrabble game, my sister is going DOWN. If it's the only word I put down all night ... !

Dave, I guess it could be Graig (rock) Garwedd or Garw (coarse, rugged). Pen y Ghent is top or head of something but I wouldn't want to offer an opinion on 'ghent'; not a Welsh word as it stands, but could be deteriorated from various things. A linguist would probably know ...

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: leeneia
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:30 PM

(Is phlegmy a word?)

It is now.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 03:00 PM

I was once told that Pen-y-ghent meant hill of wind. Wikipedia says it means 'top of ghent'. Which is very useful;-) There are lots of Norse place names in the area as well so there could be some of that around. Following the dales north from there (Ribblesdale) there is Chapel-le-dale and the Kingsdale (vi-kings apparantly.) Gragareth stands to the North of that. At the head is Yordas cave - Yorda being a Norse giant with a liking for little boys. Social Services here I come...

Back to Welsh pronunciation I was once driving around Wrexham looking for a little place called Llay. Knowing about the 'Ll' I asked a local for directions.

"Ooooh, let me see now. Llay? Llay? No don't know it. Oh, hang on, you mean Ll -eye..."

I'm sure you Welsh buggers make it up just to confuse us English invaders:-)

Once in a pub in Clynnog Fawr on the Lleyn peninsula (go on - talk us through that) I overheard a conversation in Welsh. I recognised the bit when one bloke said "F^&*ing Black and Decker" :D

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 03:24 PM

Used to pass through a train station where the name board was longer than the bloody platform.

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwyll-llantysiliogogogoch

The name translates as "The church of St. Mary in the hollow of white hazel trees near the rapid whirlpool by St. Tysilio's of the red cave" in Welsh.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: sian, west wales
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:08 PM

Ah! Ghent = gwynt = wind. Well, that makes sense then!

A few years ago a bunch of Welsh speakers agreed to meet up after work in a pub near Westminster - they all worked in government circles. One of them - an MP as it happens - showed up late and stopped at the bar to get his drink before joining the group. He was accosted by a businessman who had a skinful and who said, "See them f*cking Welsh there babbling away? They're f*c%ing talking about ME." So the MP looks surpised and wonderfully sympathetic and replies, "Really !!!??? So, did you hear them say c%nt or f%ckin'?" "No," says the drunk. "Oh," says the MP, "then they weren't talking about you, were they?" took his drink and joined his friends. I know this is true because the story was getting garbled on the jungle telegraph so the MP in question told me the actual story himself.

Yep - the whole language is a ruse set up so us Welsh buggers can have a laugh at you English buggers. Works good, eh? Our AGM will be in Pontrhydfendigaid this year.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: HuwG
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:25 PM

Llanfair = Church of St. Mary (Mair)
Llandudno = Church of St. Tudno

Ah, the joys of the Soft Mutation (Y treiglad meddal). And there are others. Mutation of the leading letter of a word is (as far as I know) unique to Celtic or Gaelic languages. It makes following a sentence with a dictionary nearly impossible unless you already know the relevant grammar, as a word will mysteriously begin with one letter, but belong elsewhere entirely.

Yes, we do it to annoy !

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:25 PM

I believe it was renamed to "put itself on the map", Dave. Whatever, most people I know would call it Llanfair PG.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:14 PM

I thought it was in Llamedos?

Or Llareggub

Depending on whther you like Terry Pratchett or Dylan Thomas.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:25 PM

Had a lot of fun trying to pronounce it, and the more beer you drank the easier it got.:)

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Bert
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:31 PM

Actually no two Welsh people pronounce the words the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave4Guild
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:35 PM

Ah, the mutations, Huw!
Treiglad trwynol, a treigled llais, seems to ring a bell!
Even more annoying.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: HuwG
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 09:36 PM

I have been pondering on the subject of the "Flat 'A'", discussed in the opening post of this thread.

If the mill town mentioned is indeed Glossop (which, on re-reading the first post, seems more and more likely), then the local accent is more Mancunian than Derbyshire. The true Derbyshire accent (found in the heart and east of the county), doesn't seem to me to be too different to Yorkshire; glottal stops replacing the word "the", and the 'A' sound dragged out to several seconds.

Locally, though, the main accent encountered among the young is the slurred mixture of "rat-arsed" (drunk) and Mancunian. Practically nothing can be heard but vowel sounds.

...

"Mills behind high walls" ... Most mills when I first moved to the place backed directly onto the roads; driving past them was a slightly unnerving experience of driving through a blackened stone canyon. A series of fires in the 1990's, some caused accidentally, others by vandals, cleared many of the unused mills. (Some have been converted to other industrial use and are still in use.)

One mill, which did sit behind high walls, was the biggest, the Wren Nest Mill. This was once a very large complex; a Tesco's store and other shopping centres now occupy much of the site. Half of the surviving mill building burned down in a spectacular blaze in 1995, started by vandals. The remaining half is now being converted into flats. (The mill was close enough to my home that the blaze melted the windscreen wipers on my car.)

I have some photographs of the conflagration. I'll see if I can get them scanned and posted somewhere.

Glossop, and other mill towns have changed very much in the twenty years since I moved in. The terraced streets are still there, but the population has almost doubled in the last two decades, and all new housing is estates of detached houses, with 2.4 cars per household, and names like "Shirebrook" and "Lower Bank". What has not doubled is the means of getting all these people and cars out in the morning and back in the evening.

The traffic jams are depressing, and the railway service, while not inadequate, goes to the wrong places. (It is the former "Manchester, Sheffield and Lincoln Railway", and still has some spectacular viaducts at Dinting and Broadbottom.) It calls at stations in North Manchester and at Manchester Piccadilly in the centre; but most Glossop commuters go to Stockport and South Manchester. So, there is no option but to take the car.

...

Glossop's expatriate Welsh community did once try and muster a "Glossop Druids" team to participate in the local Rugby Sevens tournament. We came up two players short.

I am practising a few Welsh tunes for the various informal sessions I attend. A "leek and daffodil" set might add nicely to the "Lurpak", "Bagel" and "Brie" sets many of the regular attendees do. (Those are Norwegian Hardanger Fiddle tunes, Klezmer tunes and French bourees and other musical styles.)

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:52 AM

they could easily run a Glossop to Stockport train, there's already one (just one) between Stalybridge and Stockport, calling at Guide Bridge on the way.

What's in the klez set? And how do you get a set of Hardanger fiddle tunes, I mean, it's hard enough to tell if there's a tune even in the one...