folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 02:05 PM

I travel to wales quite a lot and am familiar with a lot of place names but I cannot pronounce them. Can anyone tell me the following, Bagillt, Llay. How do you say these? shame on me, my mother and her family were Welsh. Thankyou, Glennis

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Paul Brett
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 08:39 AM

Hi Kat,

Just browsing the net and found your thread re The Antiques Road Show. I also did Flog It for the BBC as well, in a beautiful Church (St.Mary's) in Betws y Coed. Another beautiful place about an hours drive from Portmerion. I've just joined up to the Cafe too.

Paul

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: sian, west wales
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 10:45 AM

Well, you didn't miss anything 'cause the show got BUMPED! Fortunately not, "DUMPED" as it will be on this Sunday at noon for the first time.

Unfortunately for us, (but fortunately for the family in question) a huge trial for a multiple-murder just north of Swansea finished with a guilty verdict and all the news programmes got extended and 'our' programme postponed.

Very happy for the family - it was a terrible thing - but we've all had every in, out, blow, gorey detail since it happened 7 years ago ... and I would personally not have to go through it all again.

Anyway - don't know what to make of the non-Brits refusal. I had a friend currently doing some work in Ghana get into it - only to get the reports on the murders. Wonder what's up? I know a lot of people in Canada listen to Frank Hennessy's Celtic Heartbeat so it isn't a blanket ban for sure ...

Try this come Sunday.

sian

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 04:00 AM

Well they don't know where you live but they know who owns the IP address... Also, there are companies that provide databases of this type of information eg. MaxMind

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: 8_Pints
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 01:02 AM

Great! Thanx Katlaughing - it works fine for me.

BTW I don't know how they can figure out where you're listening from from your ISP address. Baffles me ......

Bob vG

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 11:42 PM

Well, crap! I clicked on it and it says "sorry for UK listeners only!" What's up with that!?

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 11:41 PM

I'm wondering if the link in the upper righthand corner of THIS PAGE is the right one for the Triple Harp show?

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: 8_Pints
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 10:02 PM

Sian,

I'm having trouble trying to navigate the BBC Wales web site to find the relevant "Listen Again" show.

Any chance of a "blue clicky"?

Thanx

Bob vG

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 04:28 PM

I missed something...didn't realise you were in them! Thanks, again!

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: sian, west wales
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 12:39 PM

I've put my alarm clock on as I have a memory like a sieve. I don't think I'll be in the first couple of programmes - probably the last one. Some of us were taped in my living room. Should have asked for a facilities fee ...

sian

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 11:45 AM

Thanks, Sian!! Will try to tune in!

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: sian, west wales
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 06:52 AM

As per another thread, you might note that Huw Williams’ (formerly of Huw & Tony Williams, now with Crasdant) radio series can be heard from today, 17th August to 13 September on Radio Wales, and presumably on bbc.co.uk "Listen Again" as follows:

#1: The Triple Harp: 17-08-06, 6.32 p.m.
Repeat: 20-08-06, 12.03 p.m. & 23-08-06, 9.31 p.m.

#2: Traditional Dance: 24-08-06, 6.32 p.m.
Repeat: 27-08-06, 12.03 p.m. & 30-08-06, 9.31 p.m.

#3: Traditional Instruments: 31-08-06, 6.32 p.m.
Repeat: 3-09-06, 12.03 p.m. & 6-09-06, 9.31 p.m.

#4: Traditional Song: NO THURSDAY BROADCAST
Sun 10-09-06, 12.03 p.m.
Wed 13-09-06, 9.31

Remember to listen and to write to the BBC afterwards (David Jackson, Head of Music, BBC, Llandaf, Cardiff, CF5 2YQ) to ask for more traditional music programmes.

Also, for those of you in the States, Crasdant is on tour there in the fall:


Fri-Sun Oct 6-8 Celtic Colours, Cape Breton Nova Scotia
Tue Oct 10 Elon University, Elon, NC
Wed Oct 11 Martyrs, Chicago IL
Thu Oct 12 Cedar Cultural Center, Minneapolis MN
Fri Oct 13 Calgary Folk Club, Calgary AB
Sat Oct 14 Rogue Folk Club, Vancouver BC
Sun Oct 15 Welsh Society, Seattle WA
Tue Oct 17 St.Paul UC Church, Belleville IL
Thu Oct 19 Ceilidh House, Brunswick ME
Fri Oct 20 Musc for Robin, Arlington MA
Sat Oct 21 Blackstone River Theatre, Cumberland RI
Sun Oct 22 Susquehannah Folk Music Society, Harrisburg PA
Wed Oct 25 Milestone's, Rochester NY

sian

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Alba
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:14 PM

Here is Jeff's link:) in blue clicky form.
Best Wishes
Jude

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:09 PM

Ahh Kat...good on ya! She's an understated, subtle and powerful beauty. All the celtic cultures have there own charm, wit, treasures and traditions, but there's something about Wales. Enjoy your excursion into greater knowledge.

One of the great joys in my life was the warmth with which I was received on my bicycle tour a few years ago. I mentioned in a pub of having Welsh heritage and naming my son Owen and suddenly I had more pints in front of me than I could ever hope to drink.

Sian in W.Wales may be able to expand, but there's a series of pre-historic forts along the north coast from Holyhead to Liverpool. An alarm signal could be sent in something like 90 seconds.

Here's a web address with more info re Wales: www.britannia.com/wales

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:13 PM

Thanks Guest, never thought ya were bein' picky for a minute. Your post was helpful.:-)

I am sure I didn't see it on 'Flog it' or 'Hock it' or "It Fell off the back of a Lorry" *giggle*

It was definitely on the 'Give us a squint at your dodgy old stuff aka The Antique Roadshow:>)

Know what I mean? nuff said. *nudge nudge wink wink*

katofftheturniptruck:-)

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:41 AM

Wasn't it 'Flog It', not 'Antiques Roadshow'? (Not being picky, but someone might be trying to find the programme.)

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 03:52 AM

If you like trains this isn't far from Portmeirion , but for God's sake don't take Number6 with you.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:02 AM

We watched what was apparently a re-run of Antiques Roadshow UK, tonight. They were in Portmeirion in the north of Wales. How beautiful it was! It will be a definite MUST SEE when I get to visit!

The program was esp. interesting because they had Paul Brett and a few of his vintage guitars on. There is a gallery of his guitars, and those of others, at Fretdancer. I figured some of you probably know him and/or other folks at Fretdancer. Anyone know if he happens to frequent the Mudcat? Besides his other guitars, he has one which belonged to Leadbelly and one which belonged to Robert Johnson.

I'm becoming quite enamoured with Wales.:-)

kat

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:17 AM

I'm not Welsh at all Dave, gets a great view on mine- make sure it's Microsoft, not Google Maps or Google Earth... the fort is the squarish feature with a farmhouse in one corner. Follow the broad slope to the east north towards the river, lots of features there of unknown date, but in the field just inland there are a number of circular features that might be British huts. There should have been a road crossing somewhere nearby- any suggestions?

I find it hard enough to spell FORWARDS in Welsh, let alone backwards... SNALWIBMA SNALWIBMA SNALWIBMA SNALWIBMA SNALWIBMA.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,04.:46 AM (alias Topsie)
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:36 AM

Dave the Gnome

Exactly. That was the point I was making - compare Paul Burke's spelling with mine.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:09 AM

You have to look at the reflection in a siop window, Guest.

I couldn't get the Caerhun thing zoomed in enough, Paul. Is it because I am only part Welsh?

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 04:46 AM

SNALWBMA ?

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 03:57 AM

Ah, Mo, but it WAS Welsh before 650AD! Anyway, shouldn't the drink be Welch?

Wales is where emergency vehicles have SLANWBMA across the front. Where there's nothing to do but wait until an Englishman comes into the pub, so they've got something to talk about in Welsh. Where they used to close pub front doors as a sign of resect for the Sabbath. Where rain goes upwards.

If you want to see the most stunning Roman fort, and apparently a port complex, go to the Microsoft map,Windows Live Local, and search for Caerhun- zoom in close and pretend you're an archaeologist!

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Mo
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM

Back to the business of bilingual official notices. I find it somewhat annoying that my utilities bills are all bilingual, so I have to search through small print in even more incomprenehsible language than usual to find anything I want to know.
And the best TV reception is in Welsh.
We are more than 10 miles on the English side of the border.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:25 PM

"I love all that Irish music..." Yes, I was at a performance of "Navvies" in a church hall in Chester and overheard that comment, the speaker particularly enjoyed the playing of the shilleleigh ('that drum thing')

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Anne Lister
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:15 PM

Ah, now I'll never forget the Welsh poteen someone smuggled into a party some time in the 1970s ...had quite an effect, too.

Anne

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: sian, west wales
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 04:33 PM

A most excellent drink. Ask Micca; he's a fan. I don't like whisky, but I'll drink Penderyn in Heaven as my tipple-of-choice. I see that it's available in the Duty-Free in Gatwick (and presumably other ones as well).

sian

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: mindblaster
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 12:51 PM

It's a lovely Whisky why should the people from up north of the border have a monopoly of saying "that's a drink!"

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Anne Lister
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 12:22 PM

Picking up on Brian's wider definition of "Irish" tunes - I have met several friends who (probably unconsciously) used the adjective "Irish" to mean "I like it". As in "That's a fine Irish melody", when I was singing a song that had been collected in Sussex, frex.   

And what kind of a drink is Welsh, Mindblaster?

Anne

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:48 AM

100!

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: mindblaster
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:45 AM

Welsh is a drink!

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:23 AM

Ahhhh - Good point about the description. We often get it at our open session during the festival. When someone has played a good Morris tune or sung an English ballad you often hear "I love all that Irish music..." I have given up correcting them:-)

I remember being turned away from Grinsbrook on the way up Kinder once because the moors were on fire. We had to spend the afternoon in the Nags head. What a shame...

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:05 AM

My understanding is that the repertoire varies from more Irish to less so, depending on which musicians are there (although Huw would know more). But, although part of me resents English and all kinds of other music being lumped together under the description "Irish", I can't really blame the pub for putting up a notice that will at least give the average punter a vague notion of what to expect. If they wrote "English music session", no-one apart from the folkies would have any idea at all.

The moors are officially closed because of the fires. But too hot to go walking anyway.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:55 AM

Funnily enough I drove past the Globe today - It was advertising an 'Irish' accoustic music session. Is this the same one and the description is not very accurate or is it on a different night?

Bringing the topic back to things Welsh I noticed the moors were well ablaze. Not the Welsh nationalists setting fire to cottages again? ;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 09:20 AM

>> A friend of my father once told me a punishement in his area (he now lives in Deganwy but I've a feeling he was born and brought up on Anglesey) was being made to wear a placard. <<

The same thing happened in the industrial South. My Dad told me that during his schooldays in Merthyr Tydfil the punishment for linguistic incorrectness was to be made to wear a wooden board, hung around the neck on a string, which stated "I spoke Welsh today" (intended as an admission of shame rather than a boast). I daresay they were beaten as well.

Exchanging messages about sessions in Glossop is slightly off-thread(although the initial posting did prompt discussion of the Peak District), but yes, Huw, it was a rip-roarng session and Jody Kruskal (New York concertinist, for those who haven't met him) was particularly impressed that he could join in Grateful Dead songs at a traditional music session in an English pub!

Incidentally "The Management" at the Globe, Diana, used to attend the folk club in the Crown twenty years ago. She's on our side.

Next time I'll say hello to the man in the loud shirt.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Anne Lister
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 06:40 AM

As to Mary's post - I think children have an unfailing knack of spotting anything that marks out difference, which can be anything from hair colour and accent to levels of achievement. I had the opposite experience to Mary. We moved to Wales in the early 1960s and I was picked on unmercifully for being English and having an English accent as well as for being clever (I had passed my 11 plus exam early and was therefore at grammar school at the age of 10). I can vividly remember the unpleasantness of it all - it's not all one sided, and never was!
As to the language issue - there are many countries in the world who have attempted to stop a language in its tracks. France with both Breton and Occitan, Spain with Catalan, England with Welsh, Irish, Cornish and Scots Gaelic are the first ones that come to my mind, but I'm sure there are others. There's an element always involved in suppressing revolutionaries and insurgents, but also an element within the population of self interest in learning the language that will give an economic advantage (which is why I assume India has retained English as an official language). Many members of my extended family, who are Welsh, have a healthy scorn for the Welsh language and a total ignorance of their own culture.

Anne

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: HuwG
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:51 AM

Re: GUEST, Brian Peters's post:

... and and what a session it was (The Globe, 24/07/06). Attended to the point of bursting, some remarkable music.

(If anyone wonders who or where I was, I was the one in the ridiculously loud shirt, playing first in the fireplace, and subsequently next to the doorway to the gents' lavatory. As I said, the session was well attended.)

I could only exchange a few words with Joel, but he liked the "international" numbers i.e. the Grateful Dead's "Friend of the Devil".

I'll have a word with the management, see if I can bagsy a bigger playing area for the sessions. After all, the jazz acts (sometimes only 3 players) on Sunday afternoons can take over the entire lounge; why can't twenty session players ?

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:05 AM

A friend of my father once told me a punishement in his area (he now lives in Deganwy but I've a feeling he was born and brought up on Anglesey) was being made to wear a placard.

I do have my reservations about the moves towards Welsh speaking jobs. Even the post my mother had (she was a senior physiotherapist and had worked for 20 odd years without speaking Welsh and without problem) became Welsh speaking ESSENTIAL on retirement and that's just one...

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:29 AM

Further to Tabster's posting above: My Nain ( Grandmother) who was born and bred in Aberffraw , Anglesey told me that she was beaten by her schoolteachers if she spoke Welsh anywhere in school - even in the playground. As a monolingual Welsh speaker you can imagine the hard time she had of it. Most of the other village children would have been in the same position.
I cannot imagine the reason for such cruelty, yet I believe that something similar happened in Brittany many years back in order to suppress the Breton language.
When I first moved to England from Wales in the 1960s I was mocked by my ( mainly Home Counties ) English colleagues for having a Welsh accent. I spent a couple of years determinedly losing it to get those vicious people from off my back. I wonder if things like this still go on?
Although I don't now have the accent I still sing in Welsh just to show what wonderful traditional music there is ( and was ) in my home country.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: sian, west wales
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:32 AM

Ah. That's one word sorted then.

sian

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Paul Burke
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:00 AM

A few points- Derbyshire was scarecely deserted in Roman times, though probably quite thinly populated. As I said before, it's not a residence of choice, at least in the days before easy transport and consequent appreciation of wild beauty.

The (lost but existence certain) lead mining centre of Lutudarum was somewhere around the south Peak district. There were potteries near Duffield, forts with their vici (shops, businesses, wives and floozies) at Chesterfield, Derby, Brough (Navio- the river is still the Noe) and Glossop (Ardotalia, romantically also called Melandra) and also probably at Buxton and Carsington. there was quite a network of roads, the ones that are marked on maps only a sample. There was a Romano- British settlement at Roystone Grange, and one is believed to have existed at Bonsall, but that was unexcavated when it was (illegally) quarried away a few years ago.

"Twistle", not "wistle"- it's a Norse word for the land in a fork in a river or stream.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: sian, west wales
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:35 AM

Well answered, Anne.

Just thought I should add a bit for Huw re: gwystl - it can also mean 'hostage', that is, a person who is left as a pledge for some future act. You could build up an interesting story for the place based on that!

sian

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Anne Lister
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:41 AM

It depends entirely on where you are in Wales. In some areas, Welsh is the first language, while in others it's English. Signs throughout Wales are bilingual, as are official documents, messages on ATMs and lots more. There are Welsh language channels on tv and radio. For an increasing number of jobs it's important to have a good knowledge of both languages. Here in south east Wales all schools are encouraged to use Welsh for a lot of instructional language (sit down, line up, stop talking, doing the register, sorting out school lunches, asking permission for leaving the class etc) as well as teaching the language formally, and there are an increasing number of Welsh medium schools (my nephew and niece attend one of these) which are an attractive proposition to parents as standards of achievement and behaviour are high.

Yes, in the past there were attempts to suppress the language and children speaking Welsh in class were punished, but there's been a huge resurgence of interest and pride in the language since the 1960s and the language is strong and healthy.

Anne in Pontypool

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:18 AM

I thought Welsh was a second language in Wales.
A couple of generations ago Welsh was beaten out of school pupils, now in some schools the teaching is in Welsh.
But that's hearsay, someone will give the whole story.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:52 PM

I take it that English is a second language in Wales?

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Anne Lister
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 12:33 PM

Thanks, Jude ... all we need now are the writers!

Anne

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Alba
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:31 AM

Here's a link for Tabster/Anne's website: Writer's retreat in Pontypool

Looks wonderful.
Good luck with new venture Tabster:)
Jude

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 05:35 AM

Is Gogs still going, jeff? I know Paul who was the last of the original owners packed in but I don't know if anyone else took over.

The "session/open mic" you mention is actually the Conwy Folk Club and (as far I know - I don't live in the area now) they have Guest nights as well as singers nights. The sessions happen before the start and during the break - started by accident really - most of us who started it also played in a session in Llandudno.

I'm not a bluegrass lover but I used to go to Trefriw during the Bluegrass Festival weekend. I thought that made a much better venue for the event than Bodlondeb, Conwy.

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,sian west wales sans cookie for some reason
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 04:29 AM

Llwybr cyhoeddus is pronounced LlOOEE bir cuh HOI this, remembering what we said about "Ll" above. All Welsh words have the accent on the penultimate syllable.

Huw, 'wistle' could be something to do with 'gwestu' meaning 'to lodge' or 'gwystl', 'to pledge'.

Jeff, I believe Blodau'r Grug is out of print, although I think you can still find it in music shops where the stock doesn't move quickly. There's a follow on volume, Cadw Twmpath, which is still available but the standard sessions tunes are mostly in Blodau'r Grug. There are a few others around too. Sian James has just brought out a new 'folk' album but I haven't heard it yet. Of course, she is one of many and there are CDs available for every taste, cerdd dant to cajun, vocal, instrumental, archival to experimental. There are links to a lot of today's groups at www.trac-cymru.org.

sian

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Anne Lister
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:55 AM

Bother ... blue clicky didn't work ... website is http://www.plasawen.com

Anne