BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures

Subject: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: sharyn
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 01:07 PM

Hi Everybody,

I am trawling for alternative medicine remedies and treatments for fractures. I am not looking for fracture prevention (the fracture has already occurred).

What I have, specifically, is a "Jones fracture" or a fracture of the fifth metatarsal. I have had it for approximately twelve weeks and the only treatment I have been given for it is a boot cast and instructions to walk only using the heel of my foot. While there are indications that treatment with bone stimulators can help, bone stimulators cost thousands of dollars and I have no insurance nor thousands in savings.

What I am hoping to do, by some other means (magnets? nutrition? acupressure? sound healing? ???) is to stimulate blood flow to the foot and accelerate bone growth.

Does anyone have any experience with alternative therapies for this fracture?

You can PM me if you want.

Thanks,

Sharyn

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 01:11 PM

Amputation usually solves this problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 01:14 PM

Nutrition is always useful (calcium, etc.), and acupuncture can relieve symptoms, but I have watched spectacular failures using magnets. There is NO sound, definitive reason for magnets, except to line the pockets of charlatans. Bone problems simply take time.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 01:14 PM

gee...real cute, 'guest'

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 01:22 PM

"Jones fractures can become chronic conditions if the fracture fails to unite. If this is the case, orthopedic surgery will likely be recommended to secure the fracture in place with a screw. The more common conservative treatment is to spend more time in a cast, up to 20 weeks.

Dancer's fracture is a fracture caused by a tendon pulling off a small portion of bone. There are two small muscles on end of this bone, one of main causes of the bone piece not rejoining; non-union or delayed union is common. Other treatments commonly encouraged are increased intake of vitamin C and calcium."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jones_fracture

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 02:08 PM

Accupuncture/pressure can help, tremendously, imo. Also, topical treatment with zheng gu shui (this stuff has *saved* me from severe pain many times!); hydrotherapy, even just soaking your foot in hot water can stimulate circulation; putting a heated wheat husk pillow, or a tube sock filled with uncooked rice, heated in the microwave, then placed around the foot, will help. Massaging with help, too, esp. if you use a heated oil/lotion.

I have used all of those in the past eight months for minute fractures and a lot of soft tissue damage in my feet and they are much better now. The boot the foot doc recommended just threw my whole spine off and made my other side quite sore with wrenched muscles, etc.

Also, try to find the most comfortable shoes possible and elevate your foot as much as possible to reduce any swelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 03:02 PM

In North America (don't know about other parts of the world), the herb, Boneset has been traditionally used to help the body repair a bone fracture. I don't know whether or not it is effective, but it might be worth a try.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 03:07 PM

Have a look.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:30 PM

Or knitbone and comfrey poultices

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Helen
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:09 PM

I fractured my arm late last year and remembered a herb known as "boneset', trawled the net and found a lot of info on comfrey. You can use the ointment, even if you can't apply it directly to the spot. You can also eat it as a sald vegie or make tea with it. Good stuff! Nature's/God's pharmacy.

Sending you love & light & healing thoughts,
Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Helen
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:20 PM

Sorry, not "boneset" but "knitbone".

and "salad vegie"

Need new typing fingers!

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM

You can follow your doctors orders and you'll heal up in a few weeks

Or you can use 'alternative' therapies, and heal up in a couple of months..... as long as you ALSO follow your doctors orders

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:37 PM

Sharyn
The homoeopathic remedy "Symphytum" is very effective for fractures, particularly thopse of small bones which usually have little blood supply.
As an ostoepath I commonly have patients presenting with this type of complaint and the homoeopathic or herbal remedies are usually more effective than orthodox medical treatment.
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:38 PM

Colyn, thanks! Nice to know we've got an osteo among us!

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:32 AM

The most important thing with fractures is NOT to stress the site of healing.

Pain relief can therefore be contra-indicated as it may encourage over-use.

The idea that homeopathic or herbal remedies can help knit a fracture I find frankly mind-boggling.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:39 AM

Seemingly authoritative discussion of Jones Fractures

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 09:44 AM

Be VERY carefyl ingesting/eating comfrey....a lot of people are allergic to the alkaloid in it. Topical is almost always safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:26 AM

A mild electric field at the site of the injury will promote healing up to 50% faster.

This is standard treatment for broken hips in the elderly when healing is slow.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:06 PM

Google 'comfrey toxicity' and you'll find very alarming reports on just how toxic it is. People heve had liver problems from eating relatively small quantities. The plant's toxic properties vary widely, depending on where it grows, particular strains, etc. I've eaten small amounts in salads in the past, but wouldn't touch it now.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Helen
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:57 PM

Thanks for the info, Guest Bee. I mainly used the ointment and only ate a couple of leaves.

I am also aware, though, of the scientific studies where excessive amounts of a herb or a concentrated form of it, e.g. tablet form, are fed to lab rats and then conclusions are drawn based on these unrealistic studies. There are people in the medical profession and pharmaceutical companies who don't want us home-growing our own cures and some of these will exaggerate the "harmful" effects of herbs for this reason, so I usually read up on the studies and see what sort of doses the lab rats are given (usually animal subjects and not humans), and for how long, and how realistic the doses are and the conditions of the study. The more beneficial the herb, the more likely that it will be "declared harmful", IMHO.

So I will be googling for more info.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 07:09 PM

Also be careful of any electric stimulus treatments. Done too soon, when the tissues are still fragile, it can cause more swelling and pain, like you wouldn't believe! Listen to your body...if it hurts, don't do it, despite what the doc and physical therapist might say.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 07:22 PM

OUCH sharyn!

I'm trying to repair some ribs but at least I can walk.

Re: Comfrey (thanks for the reminder! I actually have some growing out back.) I'll make a poultice.

I used to eat comfrey and drink comfrey tea for any little ache or pain. It was especially good for curing bladder infections. My daughter sufferred from an ulcer at a very early age and none of the high priced medicine worked. comfrey caps and grapefruit juice cured her.

Recently I found out comfrey causes cancer. I wonder how many tests were done, etc. Makes me wonder if its not the pharmaceuticals blocking the use of free medicine. I won't ingest it anymore but I do think this needs more investigation. Its a wonderful herb.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:20 PM

Thanks to Richard Bridge for the very pertinent additional comments "not to stress the site of the fracture and that pain relief could be contra-indicated". Pain is nature's way of telling us that something is wrong.
However, I would take issue with him about homoeopathic and herbal remedies.

Many druga are derived from plants - aspirin from the Willow and Digitoxin from Foxglove as just two examples. All the major drug companies are looking at plant alkaloids for new remedies. Unfortunately, although those remedies have been found the drug companies cannot patent them, so,in general, they have lost interest.

You might find the thought of herbs having a healing effect to be mind-boggling. So is the fact that over 5000 people in the UK die each year from the effects of prescription medication!

Remeber that human knowledge is very limited. We do not yet know everything that there is to know about nature and the human body. New facts are frequently coming to light. We do not even know how some of the hormones work!

Not many years ago men were playing with Leyden jars and Wimshurst machines as an after-dinner entertainment for their guests. Making electrical sparks fly was great entertainment. It was not until Voltaire built a meter to measure electricity that we began to understand what it might do for us. Yet electricity has been around since the creation of the earth, certainly preceding human life!
Just be aware that humanity can only advance through an open mind.

Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:46 PM

http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/PPI/UnconventionalTherapies/Comfrey.htm

This link reviews the history of comfrey use, the useful components (that could assist in bone healing), the liver toxicity (which is sometimes related to low doses), the carcinogenic properties, danger in pregnancy, and to breastfed infants, the variance of toxicity in plant species and plant parts, and the contamination of herb supples with other plant material (such as foxglove).

I'm all for using simple remedies where they are safe and effective, but it is important to really know what one is ingesting. I keep in mind that our modern lifespan far outdoes that of the average mediaeval herb user, evilbigpharma notwithstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 08:53 AM

All sensible suggestions there. Next time I break my feet, I may try comfrey, in a topical form.

Without trying to swing the thread sideways, don't lump hebal and homeopathic remadies together. Most of our drugs are derived from plants, so all a herbal remadey is doing is giving you the drug, or a variant of it to you in a diluted form, anlong with some other bits that may do anything between tasting nice to poisioning you.....

Homeopathy, is, as far as anyone can tell, simply faith healing. People belive this expensive water will cure them, so they get better, just like they can belive the preist has driven the evil spirt causing their back to hurt out.

There has never been a properly done, double blind study that supports it working. The concentraitions used are so low there may be one molecule of the active ingrediant in one in a thousand doses, or even less in the 'best' ones. It belongs in the same category as horoscopes, ie it cannot be actively disproved, but no objective eveidence for it exists, and no mechinism has ever been sensibly suggested

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Helen
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 07:54 PM

Guest, Bee,

I like it! "Evilbigpharma"!

I haven't had a chance to go a'googling in detail yet, but I'll do it tonight, maybe.

I had a quick look before and I saw briefly that one study was based on capsules of comfrey preparation which could be more processed, less pure, more concentrated, or different to eating a fresh leaf here and there. I remember when I googled about comfrey, when I had fractured my arm, that someone at one site was using the ointment, and I think the fresh leaves as well, for horses. S/he was very impressed with the results.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 08:58 PM

Bunnahabhain.
You seem to have missed the point about homoeopathy.
Homoeopathic treatment does not aim to cure in the same way as conventional or herbal medecine, whereby the drug acts as a poison to the pathogen. The aim of homoeopathy is to promote the body's innata ability to heal itself via its' own immune system.
Glasgow University have conducted extensive trials on homoeopathic drugs, all with credible results. Unfortunately mankind still cannot understand how the remedies operate but that, surely, is the fault of mankind, not of the remedies.
My own thoughts are that the remedies work in a similar way to inocculations for such diseases as diptheria, smallpox and the MMR injections. The immune system is primed to repel a pathogenic invader. If only a miniscule dose of a pathogen is needed to cause harm to the body then only a miniscule dose is needed to prime the immune system.
Study the body systems, as I have had to do, and when you fully understand them you will see how homoeopathy and other "forgotten" rermedies can work.
However, I would remind you that new discoveries are being made every day about the workings of the body so your task will be arduous!

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Cobble
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 09:13 PM

Thats the problem with this site people tell you why things work for them, then the brain deads that know nothing about it tell you why it wont,

       Cobble certified natural healer.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 09:16 PM

Oh, Cobble HEAL ME!...Bring on the Skyes!!! LOL....I believe..I believe (in dog therapy...only 3 more weeks til Corgi babies in my house!!!!!)

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 12:25 AM

Well said, Bonecruncher and Cobble. There's still so much we do not understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 06:22 AM

Study the body systems You mean like the pharamacology course I took a few years ago?

I ddin't say Hoemeopathy didn't work, I just said it was the placebo effect, which is very powerful in some cases.

Yes it only takes a very small dose of certain drugs to have a dramatic effect, such as vaccines as you say. The trouble is, in a 15 C preperation, which is not unusual, you would need to have around 25 metric tonnes of the remedy to get one molecule of the original solution. There's miniscule doses, and non-existant ones.

A 30 C dilution, as often recommended, working up from 1 ml originally would need around 10 ^45 cubic kilometers of water. For referance, this volume is eqivilent to a sphere of radius of 621 Trillion Km, or 1000 times larger than the orbit of Pluto.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: GUEST, unwelcome perhaps, but right.
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:16 PM

Before you wank-brains go explaining why you don't know quite HOW homeopahty works--and pre-emptively slagging the skeptics before they wade in--you have to show that it DOES work; which plainly has never, ever, been demonstrated.

Lourdes water, prayer, acupuncture, crystals ... you idiots! No wonder the world is heading backwards.

Don't bother, I'm comitting suicide this afternoon so will be unable to read your dross replies:

http://www.skeptics.com.au/video/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: Grab
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:49 PM

Glasgow University have conducted extensive trials on homoeopathic drugs, all with credible results.

I know there's plenty of studies on these - in fact, every drug company and university of medicine has been doing trials on compounds derived from plants for well over a hundred years. Anyone arguing that herbal remedies are all fake is simply wrong.

But I would be very surprised indeed to find a successful trial of homeopathic pills, because to my knowledge this has never happened yet. As Bunnahabhain says, if there isn't a single molecule of the substance in there, it simply isn't possible for that substance to be having an effect. For homeopathy to be true, it requires that every basic tenet of chemistry and physics is incorrect, such that atoms and molecules don't actually exist.

I'm all for keeping an open mind, but belief in homeopathy requires a mind so open that the moths are flying in and out... ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative Therapies -- Fractures
From: GUEST,Crystal
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:27 PM

If the Placebo effect works then don't argue! Just be glad that whatever the problem was is gone and don't question. I suck ginger sweets to ward of travel sickness and they work, although the high sugar content should, in theory, mitigate the effects of the ginger!
I'm not too sure about homeopathy, but some other alternative therapies seem to be very good, especially accupuncture. You never can tell what will work or not for you!