BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?

Subject: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 05:54 PM

Sometimes, people just can't wait for justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 05:32 PM

sIx reminded me of this in a PM today. Well, five are in court, and their lawyer says they are guilty... but, will the jury punish them?

The cracks dealers were told. Their response was that they would set up tents if burned out and not just sell crack to the children, they would give the crack to the children.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 05:41 PM

http://www.canada.com/cityguides/halifax/info/story.html?id=9ad853fa-8ceb-471c-aa56-012936b56d8b&k=27652

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 05:43 PM

Sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 05:48 PM

Our SOP on fires involving meth labs or crack production is to protect the houses on either side of the fire and let the bloody thing burn. The one exception is if someone is inside. Then we do what we have to to get the person(s) out and exit the structure ASAP. Too much bad shit in that kind of place, and we are not equipped with hazmat suits. As to the people 'taking the law into their own hands': that's what happens when the friggin' courts tie the hands of the RCs.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: number 6
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 06:38 PM

I hope this is a wakeup call for our failed justice system.

My hat is off to the Grand Manaan 5.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 06:46 PM

"tie the hands of the RCs"

Maybe someone should tell the Pope if that's happening!

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: number 6
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 06:47 PM

Here's the CBC report on todays trial session.

cbc


bill

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 03 Nov 06 - 09:21 PM

Old fashioned justice can sometimes be quite satisfying. Much of the time, however, it's not exactly justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 04:38 AM

To a certain extent, yes. The law is there to protect everyone, but too often it is seen to be ineffective, with known criminals acting as if they're untouchable, and the police are only concerned about the human rights of the person they've eventually arrest.

I know this is partially perception, and much of this culture is an over-correction from the times when the notion of a fair policeman only occured to you if you weren't the wrong colour, or religion, or whatever it was in your area, but it still rankles.

There needs to be a rebalancing, towards the majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: kendall
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 05:59 AM

A riot on Grand Manaan? What the hell is this world coming to?

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 07:30 AM

Bring it on! scum clearance.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 10:53 AM

I find the attitude approving of private justice deeply worrying.

Some years ago in Germany, a crowd did interfere with the fire brigade doing the job of extinguishing a fire in a big house with asylum seekers. They (the crowd and the arsonists) just wanted those aliens out of their community. They (the alines) were said to steal and to increase criminality in general. They just had to take the law into their own hands. Any worse, in your perception?

With rare exceptions (immediate danger and no police near), noone should get away with taking the law into their own hands. The murderer of van Gogh also felt justified killing him for the (Dutch) law allowed the prophet to be slighted and did not enough to hold up the dignity of the Muslim religion.

I hope the islanders are punished.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 11:29 AM

Another way of looking at this: The people administered justice where the legal system failed. If that house was full of Crack dealers why didn't the police arrest them in the first place?

If one of my children became a victim of these drug dealers, they would surely die very violently, and I would show no mercy even if one tried to surrender. These guys got away lightly, time to fight back, well done Grand Manan.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 12:39 PM

Good old fashioned Klu Klux Klan justice...

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 01:03 PM

These are island people - like many islanders the world over, they learn early on that if they are going to survive, they have to deal with their own shit - they can't rely on distant authorities to come to their resuce.

(Yes, there were three RCMP officers on the island - far too few to take on a house full of armed crackheads).

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 01:49 PM

"If one of my children became a victim of these drug dealers, they would surely die very violently, and I would show no mercy even if one tried to surrender"

That's a very naive statement Dave, have you ever actually dealt with any of these people? You have my absolute assurance, based on personal experience, that the REAL drug dealers, the invisible ones who control the front-men that you and I see around the place, do not give a flying fuck about anyone's lives but their own, and they are very capable indeed of taking yours and mine should we seek to interfere with business.

Leave law enforcement to the official agencies - this is good advice.
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 03:58 PM

(resuce=rescue. But you knew that, didn't you?)

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 06:01 PM

I do leave it to the police, but I have dealt with scum like this all over the world (in places you would shit your pants in Johnny my lad) I assure you i'm no stranger to violence either.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 06:30 PM

Nor were the Ku Klux Klan. Do it yourself "justice" always ends in violence against innocent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: number 6
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 08:35 PM

Unfortunately our system of justice doesn't take into regards the 12 year olds these creeps turn them onto crack. That to me is absolutely intolerable.

Up until the riots the islanders had been complaining to the authorities (the 3 mounties on the island) ... nothing was done .... the following 2 days after the riots there were up to 70 mounties on the island.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: John O'L
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 09:09 PM

This incident as a one-off event has obviously been a necessary and beneficial thing, but it doesn't follow that vigilante gangs per se are necessary and beneficial.

Something that grows of itself within a specific community is very different form an orchestrated persecution of one defined group by another.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 03:41 AM

Rather you than me Dave!
You're absolutely right they need dealing with, and very harshly. My point is that 99.999% of people don't have a clue what they'd be facing (I can say that with confidence, having done it myself), and would be unable to deal with the consequences.
These are organised and ruthless people, their manor is no place for Joe Public to go blundering around in.
Otherwise we agree.

S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: number 6
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 08:53 AM

You are correct Johnny ... it is dangerous. Illegal street drugs are controlled by a very devious cartel. They have infiltrated our society right up and into the justice system. That's why my hat is off to the Grand Manann 5, and the islanders. They took a very brave stand. I should mention these 5 accused have been in solitary while in confinement for the purpose of their own protection.

It has been said that the island should provide more activities for their youth to get involved with. This would help somewhat. But I feel the problem goes back to the marketing process of these 'cartels'. There is big, big $money in street drugs ... that is why it has taken hold of our society, even as I mentioned infiltrating right into our justice system and into the pharmaceutical corporations itself.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 04:48 PM

Thirty years ago, in Albert County, New Brunswick, Baccus was taken down a peg... Baccus bike gang... drugs , booze, whores, stolen goods... they still operate today, even though I was there with my buddies THIRTY years ago and took them down a peg. Shoulda killed the bastards, but, that would have been against the law.

Now, they "support" a half dozen strip clubs here, on behalf of the Hell's Angels. And illegal gambling (can you say "money laundering"?). One strip club is within site of Moncton High School.

So, I would like to see the lads from Grand Manan branch out. There is a franchise in Moncton that would do well. And, I would gladly supply the gas.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: John O'L
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 09:07 PM

And how long do you reckon it would be before your little militia was forced to take care of somebody when they weren't quite sure, but thought they'd better just in case, after all it's for the greater good - you have to expect a little collateral damage...

The system could certainly do with some attention but it is at least a system.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 10:45 PM

You're taking gnu too literally - he's really talking about another "one-off event", and enjoying a harmless revenge fantasy - although if he decides to get serious, I'd be tempted to drive down the road to join him, maybe bring a friend or two.

I've got your back gnu - go for it!

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 10:49 PM

Did you notice that gun in an anagram of gnu?

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 06 Nov 06 - 07:57 AM

Did you notice that bodad is an anagram of "bad bo" (a nasty bully in my grade school - no doubt you've heard of him)?

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 06:15 PM

GUILTY!

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 06:22 PM

Refresh my memory - was this a jury trial?

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 06:30 PM

Probably most acts of violence feel like a one-off event with special justification to the person or people carrying it out. Including the 4,742 recorded lynchings in the United States between 1882 and 1964.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 07:03 PM

I don't believe there has ever been a lynching on Grand Manaan Island, and I think it highly unlikely there ever will be one. Comparing what happened in Grand Manaan to lynchings in the American south is like comparing your local constabulary to the Nazis.

I'm really surprised by this attitude that people should be so respectful of authority as to sit back and let their communities be destroyed while waiting for "the proper authorities" to take action. Is this a difference between Old World and New World points of view? Is it that we in North America are closer to frontier notions of self-reliance, or what? Someone help me out here.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 07:56 PM

Is it that we in North America are closer to frontier notions of self-reliance?

A shared tradition which was reflected in those statistics about lynchings, which were by no means confined to the American South; though there is only one recorded lynching in Canada, of a 14 year old boy in British Columbia back in 1884.

One difference between the local constabulary and the Nazis is that the former operates within a framework, under which a trial with evidence has to precede the punishment. Lynch mobs don't work that way round. (Mind you that notion that a trial with evidence should precede the punishment is perhaps an old fashioned one in these days of Guantanamo Bay - but that is another matter).

A lot of those lynchings, perhaps most, will have taken place in local communities which hadn't previously never had a lynching. What they did have, though, was what can be called "frontier notions of self-reliance".

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 09:19 PM

"A shared tradition which was reflected in those statistics about lynchings ... "

Yes, but as you go on to observe, Canada does not share a tradition of lynching. Even that one recorded lynching on Canadian soil was carried out by Americans, if I'm not mistaken.

" ... those statistics about lynchings, which were by no means confined to the American South ... "

No, but it is the lynchings of blacks in the American south which particularly horrify us, is it not, both because of their role in perpetuating an oppressive, racist system, and because of our assumption that many of the victims, if not completely innocent, received a punishment completely out of proportion to their offence, even by the standards of the day, due to racial prejudice? It is not quite the same thing as the grim and unpleasant business of the lynching of a murderer or horse-thief by a gang of working cowboys a thousand miles from civilization. But even if it were, I don't know why we're even talking about lynchings. More to the point:

"One difference between the local constabulary and the Nazis ... "

One difference between what happened in Grand Manaan and the lynching phenomenon is that in Grand Manaan no lynching took place, no one was killed in any manner, no one was even badly injured, apparently - the news reports on the event and on the trial mention that a man with a long record of violent crime was "beaten", but there has been no report of any severe injury, which would certainly have been brought up in the trial if it had occurred.

I'm not advocating "mob rule", but I think if the police are not going to protect communities, those communities need to protect themselves - and if that means driving out drug dealers themselves, so be it. My hope concerning this incident is that the RCMP and their governmental overseers have gotten the message that if they are not going to do their job, the common people are going to do it for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: Adrianel
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 09:24 PM

One thing I found disturbing on moving to the US was the resemblance in uniforms between the State police and Nazi police.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: number 6
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 10:12 PM

The answer to all of this is that the system has failed.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 09:00 AM

Can we say Boston Tea Party?

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 05:41 AM

Failed system indeed but the problem is as much with the courts and prosecution as with the cops. When drug dealers are caught they are charged with trafficing, released the next day and continue to practice. It may be a year or more before they are brought to trial if they plead not guilty. A good lawyer can slow the process down even farther. In the end they plead guilty to a lesser charge such as simple possession and are sentenced to a small fine and one day in jail considered served by their court appearance. In the end we have spent thousands of dollars on a numerous hours on a police investigation, and the court system has flushed it down the drain. In Canadian law the rights of the accused are given much higher priority than justice for the victim or for protection of society in general. There are simply to many lawyers in the mix from politician (lawmaker) to prosecuter, to defender, to judge. Most that I know prosper from this system but the population in general suffers and there are far too many crooks on the street who should be in jail.
Yes, the 5 took the law unto themselves, and they were found guilty. They will probly never re-offend but will go to jail while the dealers walk. The whole system stinks and badly needs correction!

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 08:12 AM

When I posted 'the system has failed' .... I meant the whole system right from the highest courts in Canada down to the mounties and "constaples on patrol" ... and I'll even include social services in with that.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 08:33 AM

"the 5 took the law unto themselves, and they were found guilty"

Four were convicted of various offences; the other was let off.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 09:39 AM

4 convicted but it would seem that there were many more than 5 involved with at least some obstruction of the fire dept. I think some of the alledged dealers moved to Nova Scotia after they were burned out. New Brunswick therefore has gained from this episode at a loss to Nova Scotia, but has convicted those with the balls to stand up for it's people.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 09:59 AM

Here is a much less violent vigilante action but the frustration is the same. Crook released to re-offend. Neighbours take action. Cops respond to protect crook.

http://www.herald.ns.ca/NovaScotia/542293.html

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 01:54 PM

While it may be fair to criticize police-inaction in the early phases of both these case, I don't think police should be criticized for trying to contain or keep a lid on the situations that developed. It doesn't sound like they were too heavy-handed in either case. In the Grand Manaan case, the people got what they wanted: the drug dealers were taken out of their community, and it sounds like the main bad apple got a few shots to the head on the way. In the second case, we aren't really told very much - the young alleged thief may be mentally-ill, may be of extremely low intelligence, or may be some manner of basket-case. Or she may be a total psycho. In any case, the police may have felt the removing of the spotlight was in best interests of all concerned, and they may have been right, for all we know.

" ... has convicted those with the balls to stand up for it's people." Of course, part of having the balls is the willingness to risk the legal repercussions. Much as I've supported the Grand Manaan five in this thread, based on the again scanty information in the press, the charges against them were probably necessary - it is important to affirm that there is a likelihood of legal consequences for vigilante-type actions, to ensure that they occur only when people have reached intolerable levels of desperation, and have tried every other recourse. Far better of course not to allow situations to reach that state.

I'm still curious, though, as to whether the trial of the five was by jury or not. I'm wondering if a jury would convict them. And it will be interesting to see what their sentences consist of. I'm hoping that they'll get a good old-fashioned rap on the knuckles and then be sent on their merry way, but you never know; there are some mighty peculiar judges out there ...

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 08:24 PM

So a community got together and decided what was to be what, at the expence of a bunch of drug dealers. Good for them, if more communities did the same we would not have the examples of Mosside, Manchester in the UK ( four out of five gun crimes not even reported, the place generally is a police "no-go-area"). MGOH loves all this sort of stuff, it panders to his rather bizzare take on life as long as it doesn't turn up on his doorstep.

Myself, I'd rather of hoped that as part of the "peace dividend" at the end of the "Cold War" we could have resorted to Garrison Towns, where the civil authorities could rely on the Armed forces of the Crown to assist in keeping the yobs in order.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: Bert
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 08:29 PM

A neighbor of ours called the police and falsely claimed that our daughter's house was being used to deal drugs.

The police came around and she invited them in to look around. They went away happy that the claim was false.

Good job those five didn't come around and burn the place down.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 09:09 PM

I suspect those five were going on much more than the word of one person. I don't have personal knowledge of the community in question, but these fishing villages in the Maritimes are not places where people routinely burn out their neighbours; they also tend to be places in which people have a pretty good idea about what's going in what house. This would have been a case in which the community was extremely frustrated with an unacceptable situation that had gone on for some time and showed no sign of abating, so they did something about it.

Also, testimony in the trial suggested that police officers had confirmed or agreed in private conversation with the accused that there was drug-dealing going on out of the house in question. This obviously would not have been the case in the incident involving your daughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 07:20 PM

It's always a special case, whether we're talking about running a red light, or burning down a drug dealer's house, or joining a lynch mob or invading Iraq. Laws are around to protect people, and they may well protect the guilty. They do a much better job of protecting the innocent. "I, the Jury" was just the title of a bad book.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 11:15 PM

In fairness, people keep blaming the police and I think that's wrong to do so. The blame belongs with the courts and the court system. Police will gladly bust drug operations, but there is often not much incentive to do so. Bust a dealer and he's out in two months. Bust him again and he's out in three months. So a department can spend a year to gather evidence for a case against dealkers and have the damned bust thrown back at them by a judge who wants leniency for a misguided fellow who has been caught for the first time.

Subject: RE: BS: Old fashioned justice... justified?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:47 AM

OK, a perfect example of dumb-cluck vigilante 'justice' - reported in a number of UK national newspapers that a gang of our 'finest citizens', filled with righteous indignation, beat up a paediatrician. Yep, you guessed it - they didn't know the difference between a paediatrician and a paedophile.

Leave justice to the pros, and for f**ks sake give us more of them with real powers that aren't undermined by the PC-pillocks.