Lyr Req: Old Man and the After Guard (Stan Hugill)

Subject: Lyr Req: Hugill's 'Old Man and the After Guard'
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 02:30 PM

In 1971 Stan Hugill recorded a special cassette for the City Museum of Bristol called "Men and the Sea." Joining Stan were the group The Folk Tradition.

Here are the contents of the cassette:

Can't You Dance the Polka; William Taylor; Rounding the Horn; Chief O'Neil's Favourite; Haul Away for Rosy; The Lime Juice ship; Andrew Rose; Santiano; Kishmull's Galley; Hog's-eye Man; John Kanaka; Hanging Johnny; Row, Bullies, Row; Lord Franklin; Bound for South Australia; Admiral Benbow; The Old Man and the After Guard; The Ship that Never Returned.

I take it that Stan performed "The Old Man and the After Guard," a version of "The Topman and the Afterguard" that seems to have gone unprinted in Stan's books.

Can anybody supply the lyrics of this version? And the tune?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hugill's 'Old Man and the After Guard'
From: GUEST,Gary Keep, Dogwatch Nautical Band
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 04:17 PM

Hi,

I've performed with group, Dogwatch Nautical Band, here in the San Francisco area since the late 70s. I do not recall ever hearing the song your loking for or coming across it in any of the books of Sea Songs in my small collection.

But, among our groups members is Shay Black who performed with Stan years back as a member of Stormalong John. I've emailed Shay your question, he may recall hearing this.

I had the pleasure of acting as tourguide, student and driver for Stan in the early 80s when he was in San Francisco for the Festival of the Sea. I was a Ranger at Hyde St Pier at the time and I spent a memorable 3 days from picking him up at the airport to wandering through back alleys of Chinatown and getting a fantastic lesson in Asian art and woodworking as we hit many SF sites like the Asian Art Museum. I rememeber him singing a variant of Sacramento as we drove across the Bay Bridge, wish I had a recording of it now. Great memories...

I'll get back to you if Shay has any suggestions.

Gary

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hugill's 'Old Man and the After Guard'
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 04:22 PM

I believe the title of the song you are seeking lyrics for is "The Top Man and the After Guard."

Subject: Lyr Add: THE TOPMAN AND THE AFTERGUARD^^^
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 04:26 PM

BINGO I hope.

THE TOPMAN AND THE AFTERGUARD^^^
Traditional, arr: Stan Kelly
© 1961 Heathside Music

Mutinously

As a topman and an afterguard was a-walking one day.
Says the topman to the afterguard: “I mean for to pray
For the rights of all sailors and the wrongs of all men
And whatever I do pray for you must answer: ‘Amen’.

“First I'll pray for the bosun with his little stick
Who bawls out, ‘All hands!’ and then gives us a lick,
Strikes many a brave fellow and kicks him amain.
May the devil double triple damn him!” -- Says the afterguard: “Amen.”

“Next I'll pray for the purser who gives us to eat
Spew-burgo, rank butter and musty horse meat,
With weevilly old biscuit so he gets the gain.
May the devil double triple damn him!” -- Says the afterguard: “Amen.”

“Next I'll pray for them navy officers who hold up our due.
We're owed three years wages and prize money too,
And it's: ‘You can't have it yet, Jack. Try next v'yage again.’
May the devil double triple damn him!” -- Says the afterguard: “Amen.”

“And the next thing I'll pray for is a post of good beer,
For the Lord sent the liquor our spirits to cheer,
And where we’ got one pot I wish we had ten,
And never, never want for grog, my boys.” -- Says the afterguard: “Amen.”

Notes

One time when I visited the Spinners' club in Liverpool, a judy asked me to sing a song she called Kelly's Prayer. Naturally, I was flattered, but I was forced to confess that I had written only the odd verse or two. These "prayer" songs are fine examples of the folk process. In Nelson's day the dialogue was between a topman and an afterguard and I sang this particular version in a BBC Trafalgar-Day radio programme put together by A. L. Lloyd and called "Bold Nelson's Praise." The Navy, Army and Air Force have each had their own versions and variants.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hugill's 'Old Man and the After Guard'
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:06 PM

But is that the version Stan (or The Folk Tradition) knew? The cataloging info for the cassette calls it "The Old Man..."

I have never heard a copy of the cassette.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hugill's 'Old Man and the After Guard'
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:07 PM

Dang. I can't find the site I got the above post from (was interrupted by a fire call); however, it is in the DT. Sorry for the duplication, but please note that the notes at the bottom of the song are NOT in the DT. FYI.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hugill's 'Old Man and the After Guard'
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:12 PM

www.highlandregiment.org/documentation/SongLyrics.pdf

Song # 107 on p. 198.

I cannot find any reference to Stan doing a song entitled "The Old Man and the After Guard."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hugill's 'Old Man and the After Guard'
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:19 PM

I think the tape cassette you make reference to was entitled "Men and the Sea Men".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hugill's 'Old Man and the After Guard'
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:24 PM

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hugill's 'Old Man and the After Guard'
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:26 PM

Lou Killen recorded what's essentially Kelly's version. I think it was on "Steady as She Goes," and again in the '90s.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hugill's 'Old Man and the After Guard'
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:49 PM

"MEN AND THE SEA MEN Stan sings two songs on this recording for the Bristol City Museum with 'The Folk Tradition" Tracks: (That Stan sings) The Lime Juice Ship - Bound for South Australia.   City Museum
Bristol
Vinyl LP
MUS 1
Recorded 1971"

that info is from Stan's site which is at

www.stanhugill.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Main.htm

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hugill's 'Old Man and the After Guard'
From: GUEST,Gary Keep
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:57 PM

Well, here is Shay's reply.

Hi Gary,
>
>You know, I don't recognize this one. Stan knew so many songs, and
>he would often sing his favorites, but sometimes he would pull one
>up from the depths and remember it exactly, often a song that none
>of us afficionados had ever heard.
>
>Sorry I'm not of more use here.
>
>Let's try Peter.
>
>~ Shay

So he has copied Peter, (known here as Chantyranger). Peter may have come across this over the years.

Gary

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hugill's 'Old Man and the After Guard'
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 08:45 PM

Thanks, Peace and Gary. Maybe Chanteyranger will have the answer.

If the songs listed in the international library catalogue (WorldCat) are in the proper order, and the performers alternated as usual, this should be a Hugill song. I'd love to know, especially if the title really is "The Old Man..." (the skipper) rather than Kelly's "Topman" (a sailor stationed in one of the ship's "tops").

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hugill's 'Old Man and the After Guard'
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 10:11 PM

Hi Lighter
What Lou Killen recorded on 'Steady as She Goes' is "Topman & the Afterguard", which is pretty much what Peace has above.
"Says the Afterguard, Amen"

Barry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hugill's 'Old Man and the After Guard'
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 10:30 PM

Peace, that info shows me Stan did not sing the song, at least not alone.

Undoubtedly the cassette version came from elsewhere.

Thanks Barry, as well.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hugill's 'Old Man and the After Guard
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 03:21 AM

Sue my wife used to have a copy of Men and the Sea, but it went with a lot of vinyl when a friend "looked after" them for us. If you can't get hold of it, I might be able to trace it again.

My father used to sing an army version of the song as "A Soldier and a Sailor", words adapted to army officers and no doubt cleaned up when he sang it at home.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hugill's 'Old Man and the After Guard'
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 10:04 AM

Thanks, Paul. Maybe the City Museum has reissued the cassette - or could be persuaded to.

Could you post your father's version, or what you recall of it? (Am interested regardless, but I'll assume the era was WWII.)

Any other 'Catters who know a trad version, please post away!

The modern song usually goes to the "Villikins" tune, but there's one that's rather like "The Bard of Armagh" ("Streets of Laredo"), IIRC.