So do we live to die and comeback ....?

Subject: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: skarpi
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 05:41 PM

I am just wandering , am I the only one to think that we live on after
we die and do we come back to this live on earth ? what can we see or feel ? I feel for a men and a woman in my house a strong feeling?
for them ...

I dream , I see things in my sleep and they come true ?

and sometimes I cant sleep in my house ...........?

Now we Icelanders have strong faith to what we see and feel
we believe in trolls and fairies and live after death .

In Greenland the Inoks believe when you die you get into a ravens
body ..... thats what I am told ?

I stayed at friends house when I was In Us last November
I slept in a room upstairs and I felt someone in that room
a man .....    who had died there .....?

So what about the rest of you ??

Some say this is a crap and only a fool believe those things?

It would be nice to see what people think in other countrys

Please behave and respect eatch other , becouse I know
people do not agree about this matter ..


All the best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 05:46 PM

I honestly don't know, Skarpi; but even if we do come back, I believe that each life is distinct and separate. We cannot "carry over" from one to the next. So, we must make amends in this life for any wrongs we committed; and we will be judged for each life separately.

Even if one believes that they will come back, this gives them no excuse for wrong behavior in this life.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: skipy
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 05:51 PM

I will not say that it is crap as that would be rude to those that have a belief, I respect others right to what they have been taught or believe ( within reason )but for me :- death, endex, curtains, finish, no more, nothing, void.
Skipy
it is a dead parrot!
notloB

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 05:51 PM

No Skarp, you are NOT alone....I believe. But sometimes is IS difficult to 'remember' who you were and what you learned.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: skarpi
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 05:51 PM

Thank you George , well said and I agree with you .

All the best Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:00 PM

Personally, I believe that the life begins with birth and ends with death. Nothing remains after death but the memories of the things we did and people we touched. It is up to us to make sure our lives are meaningful and so we should live our lives in a positive, helpful and productive way.

Mike

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:01 PM

I very strongly believe in reincarnation. Reincarnation is a belief system that one's soul lives many human lifes in order to grow and to learn.

I do not believe in transmigration-a belief that after death, a human being's soul passes into another body after death, including the bodies of animals, birds, etc.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:05 PM

I see it the same way as Azizi. I do not believe that the soul can die, although the body obviously can, and does.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: skipy
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:15 PM

Well put Alaska Mike, but Little Hawk, you know that I respect your views.
Skipy.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:16 PM

As part of my belief in reincarnation, I believe in the law of karma.

See this excerpt from What is karma?


"...karma as the law of cause and effect. The principle is similar to that expressed by the Christian verse, "As ye sow, so shall ye reap." The word karma means action, and it's used as short-hand for the idea that every action you take causes a reaction in the future. Positive, caring actions will bring positive results back to you, whereas negative, hurtful actions will result in your suffering.

Many people believe that both good and bad karma can return to you at any time, even after this lifetime. Hindus believe that the soul is immortal and is reborn in a new body after a person dies. Thus, you have an endless series of lives to work on your karma. In each life, you should strive to do good works and evolve spiritually so your next life will be better than this one. Hindus seek to eventually break free of the cycle of reincarnation and attain eternal bliss of the soul, called moksha...

Every action you take will have a repercussion in the future, and you have to live with the consequences of your actions. Most Buddhists believe in reincarnation, and their goal is to transcend constant birth and rebirth to achieve nirvana, similar to the Hindu moksha.

Buddhism also places importance on the intent of one's actions. For example, if you accidentally step on a bug and kill it, you won't create bad karma. But if you purposefully kill it, you create bad karma. Likewise, if your actions unintentionally benefit others, you do not create good karma. Only when you mindfully do good, do you create good karma..."

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:21 PM

I believe in reincarnation, but only for the unenlightened.
--A very wise guy

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:27 PM

Sorry, Skipy, not so. Nothing ever ends. It just changes. Ice becomes water becomes vapour becomes rain becomes water becomes ice. Nothing religious or etheral about it. Just simple physics. You die. You are burned. Bits go in the atmosphere. What happens to them? You die. You are buried. You feed the soil. Grass grows on your grave. Birds eat the seeds. It's quite simple realy. All the energy that is around always has been there and always will be. Just in a different form.

Surely we are not so vain to think we are the only sentient form of energy are we?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:31 PM

"Personally, I believe that the life begins with birth and ends with death. Nothing remains after death but the memories of the things we did and people we touched. It is up to us to make sure our lives are meaningful and so we should live our lives in a positive, helpful and productive way." Rapaire

I think that Rap's belif is an excellent blueprint for life. If we all lived that ideal we'd have a better world. So, as far as Rap's beliefs go, I agree.

ButI have evidence of a different sort. Evidence that makes me believe that good as that goal is, there's a whole lot more to existence than just living a moral, loving life.

Skarpi, I hope this thread keeps going. :)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: skipy
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:39 PM

DtG, yes I agree with your concept of matter, but there is no spirit, no more Dtg, no more Skipy.
Skipy

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM

I believe that the life begins with birth and ends with death

Sorry. Far too many examples disprove that. A cow is born. It lives. It is slaughtered. It's meat feeds 10 people who would have otherwise died. How has life ended with the cows death?

What the statement above is saying is that our very narrow view of life ends in death. Perhaps life is better off without it?

Again. Nothing ever ends. All the energy in the universe has always been there. It always will be. It just changes states. Now, as to where it came from and where it will go to at the begining and end of all things...

Well. If I could answer that do you think I would be posting it here?

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:45 PM

OK skipy. Million dollar question. Define spirit.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:45 PM

As usual, believers believe, non believers don't believe. Neither can convince the other. Why discuss it again?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: skipy
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:51 PM

Gin!
Skipy

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: gnu
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:53 PM

I will be born again... as an alcohlic woodpecker. Oh... old joke on my behalf... well then, perhaps as an acrophobic eagle, that doesn't like fish.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:53 PM

Believers believe what, Guest?

And if you don't discuss things metaphysical what are you left with? Folk and Blues music? ;-)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:55 PM

Originally, reincarnation was part of the orthodox Christian beliefs and scriptures. However, Constantine had all biblical references to it expunged because he felt that people needed a stronger spiritual goad, a greater sense of urgency.

Reincarnation is also described in many of the Gnostic texts, as well as in some core Judaic texts.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:56 PM

Hehehe - Good man yerself skip! Gin never disappears of course - It is just recycled by Booths. So spirit does live on forever? ;-)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: skipy
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:01 PM

Fair comment, I can do a miracle, viz:- I can turn Gin to water, I can do this with many other liquids as well.
Skipy.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:50 PM

There is no reason to 'believe' that we come back until we can reasonably define and describe what it is that can do that.

Saying 'spirit' or 'soul' is just sidestepping the issue. An awful lot of metaphysical stuff gets promulgated because is is easy to assume that once something is named and discussed, it somehow attains 'existence'. Most of the arguements FOR things like 'spirit' are either circular, or commit the fallacy of 'affirming the consequent', where your conclusion is already contained in your premises.

Serious early 'scientists' used to pontificate about the 'ether', as if they had examined it, when all they had done was hazard some guesses about reality, then act as if it MUST exist because it was so....ummm...reasonable.

Sorry, folks...but in my opinion, it is just wishful thinking. Dave the Gnome is correct in his reminder that the ultimate particles never disappear, and in some sense, we will 'exist' forever...but that is a largely irrelevant 'existence'...nothing identifiable as 'me' will come back. Some of my elements may nourish a flower someday, but I won't know it, and the flower won't know it.

Those who prefer their metaphysics to be more mystical and romantic may, and no doubt will, just ignore my explanations and **believe**....Nothing I can do about that.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:57 PM

"Those who prefer their metaphysics to be more mystical and romantic may, and no doubt will, just ignore my explanations and **believe**....Nothing I can do about that. "

Bill, why do you feel that you need to do something about what other people believe or don't believe?   
[rhetorical question or non-rhetorical question as you like it]

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 08:20 PM

well, Azizi, in one sense, I need do nothing about it, as it CAN be argued that the beliefs in another's head have no effect on me. If someone wants to believe that fairies in their garden tend the flowers, I can only shrug. Likewise, a simple belief in reincarnation by YOU is unlikely to make much difference to ME.

But, I care, and I write, and I talk, and...once, briefly, I taught in school....because the basic mindset that entertains such beliefs is, in some places, dangerous and is used to justify behavior which IS relevant to me.

Note that most of the suicide bombers 'believe' that they are going straight to Paradise for what they do. This not precisely reincarnation, but it is the 'mindset' that concerns me. Most who believe in one type of metaphysical or paranormal phenomena also believe in others.

Further, IF I am correct and these beliefs are not well supported or explained, then having these beliefs 'just because they feel nice' does, by definition, interfere with looking at more productive and useful inquiry.
(If we 'know' that the world was created in 4004 BC, then why put much stock in all the carbon dating and anthropology and archeology?...It's just some 'stuff' God put there to amuse us)

well...you asked. Some ideas and claims are worth investigating...but it is VERY easy to be lured by specious 'proofs' and careless analysis into believing almost anything that sounds like something we'd like.

I have just learned to not be bothered by the idea that I am 'gone' when I go! I need to do the best I can while I am here.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 08:23 PM

(there are many, many more examples and subtle points I could make, but I hope I covered a couple basic directions)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 08:44 PM

But, Billdarlin'...(we've been here before, eh?)a belief in metaphysics does not mean one is a fatalist.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 09:02 PM

Thanks, Bill for your responses.

I also feel the need to do the best I can while I'm here, and "I'm a believer" not because it feels nice but because it makes sense to me.

My belief in reincarnation and karma does not absolve me from wrongdoing in this life. I believe that I have been held accountable for what I've done in past lifes in those lifes and in this one. And What I do in this life will impact my next life.

And-yes-I know that what I consider to be erroneous interpretations of how the law of karma works lead to a caste system approach to people and apathy about world conditions and finding cures for diseases etc [since some might take the position that current suffering is because of past misdeeds]. But I don't think that karma works that way.

Btw, I also believe in a God [or Force] who [that?] is active in individuals' lifes.

Are my beliefs right? Well, they're right for me. As to whether others agree or disagree with me-that's on them. I'm not troubled either way by that.

I read what others write. I take in what they 'say'[or don't as the case may be]. But I think that over time my core beliefs will become deeper and clearer. At least I hope so as that is my intent.

Positive vibrations,

Azizi

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 09:19 PM

It worked for Elvis . . . .

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 09:44 PM

"do we live to die and comeback"

I live to make the most of this life.

sIx

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 09:46 PM

What, shaking his hips?

Well, I can do that too.

And it works for me too.

Well, um, I don't mean to imply that my work entails shakin my hips but my hip bone's connected to my tail bone or how ever that song goes.

And don't even start thinking 'bout that 'shake your money maker" song. [I was way grown before I realized what that meant and now that I know I know it don't apply to me].

Not that that has anything to do with...Wait a minute...I been using that saying too much lately. I sound like a broken record.I gotta find me a new saying. Maybe I need a new attitude.

I'm gonna ease on down the road and meditate on this thread 'cause it's heavy as all get out..

Peace.

I mean, Best wishes...

I mean, Positive vibrations...

I mean see ya lata alligata

and all that jazz.

:o)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:11 PM

Indeed kat, we have been here before. It is awkward for me, with all my training in how to interpret and use the terms in precise ways, to answer and converse with folks who use the language and concepts in a looser, more 'personal' way.

Thus, Azizi, saying that her beliefs are "right for me" is on the one hand making a meaningful statement about the subjectivity of experience, and on the other hand violating a basic law of logic that says that two incompatible beliefs cannot both be true.

The question comes down to when and whether we should be able to use subjective interpretations and 'personal' definitions of concepts to justify our beliefs. This 'should' is not some legal term, as there is no way to take someone to court for believing or NOT believing some metaphysical principle.....except...*wry smile* when someone with a vested interest in a particular form of metaphysics gets control of the courts and writing the laws. Seems to me I remember a few examples of that throughout history.

   Which is worse..."Y" demanding that "X", at least publicly, bow to "Ys" notion of metaphysical 'truth', or "X" objecting to ANY notion of vague, unexplained metaphysical/paranormal idea? Is is insulting to explain that I consider certain ideas to be no more than wishful thinking fueled by superstition and well-designed stories and undocumented 'reports'?

It seems to me that it is irrelevant whether belief "Z" is seemingly benign or obviously dangerous and threatening....they are either correct or incorrect....either Islamic suicide bombers do go to Paridise for killing a few people on a bus, or they do not! EITHER we do come back in some way, after death, or we do not....and the implications are not irrelevant either way.

   There are a couple of principles I constantly refer to in these issues....

1)The burden of proof is on the assertor.
   Even a casual, offhand statement.."I believe that..." is an assertion, and carries an implication (even if not argued openly) that, if you thought about it properly, you would believe it too.
All *I* assert is that 'belief' should be based on better evidence than what is usually offered.

2)People cannot fairly do like Humpty-Dumpty did to Alice, and make a "word mean anything I choose, no more & no less."
When using language that has very specific technical meaning, like 'truth' and 'valid' and 'proof' and 'know', it is important not to use it in the casual way of informal discourse and suggest that it somehow satisfies and answers the 'formal' criteria and justifies something that it does not.

I know, it seems like I am at it again...*grin*..happily babbling on in my pedantic way and suggesting that my long-winded, tedious disclaimers dis-prove your cherished notions about ....well, about all that 'stuff' that various people believe.

   Nope...I cannot DIS-prove anything...that is not how it works in these discussions...maybe we DO "come back"...maybe 'spirit' is the essential, enervating force of the Universe...maybe the position of the stars DO determine our lives...maybe the lines in our palms DO explain our personalities...maybe black cats ARE bad luck...maybe the lines in the Chilean desert WERE made by aliens...maybe 'karma' does follow us thru lives and cost us points if we're bad...maybe there IS a pot of gold if you can find the end of a rainbow...maybe God DID tell Moses some things about what to do...maybe Athena DID spring full-grown from the forehead of Zeus.........maybe, damn it, it IS "turtles all the way down!" ALL of those things have been, and most ARE believed by somone!

What a list of arcane things that various humans believe! And everyone who believes in one batch seriously rejects others! Amos believes this and rejects that...katlaughing accepts this and ridicules that...*daylia* is sure of this and disputes that...Little Hawk....well, Little Hawk says it's all everything and it's all fine, except for G. Bush!....Georgiansilver and WYSIWYG and tarheel and Jerry R. and many others 'agree' on one thing, but interpret the details so VERY differently!

In some ways, I understand the historical precedents, pressures, influences and psychological tendencies that bring about different patterns of belief in this hectic life...but in other ways I can barely comprehend how anyone who looks at the whole array of contradictory and incompatible... and sometimes downright ludicrous ideas that we are presented with can pick ANY of them!

I see wonderful, marvelous, fascinating aspects of life, nature, people, ideas and possibilities to explore and wonder at....and boy, HOW I wish I could 'come back' and have more runs at understanding more of it! But, I am resigned, if not content, to just absorb what I can, in the most open, honest way I can manage while I am here. I just don't want anyone to tell me for a moment that being 'open' requires me to be 'gullible'. I will listen, but I have learned how to sort 'maybe' from 'probably', and I will call 'em like I sees 'em.


(those masochists who have read this far may now shake your heads and wonder how he gets the energy at his advanced age) ;>)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:18 PM

"those masochists who have read this far may now shake your heads and wonder how he gets the energy at his advanced age) ;>) "

Geritol?

But given the new airplane restrictions, you can't take it with ya.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:26 PM

"(those masochists who have read this far may now shake your heads and wonder how he gets the energy at his advanced age) ;>)"

Jaysus, Bill, have a heart. At my advanced age I CAN'T shake my head.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:27 PM

I ain't going, then! Nawww...haven't seen Geritol in years..(decades?)

But my wife does make beg me to take various vitamins and supplements, which I 'usually' do to please her...if I can see no harm besides the $$$$. I have some reservations about the efficacy of a couple of them, but I at least see why claims are made for them.....

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:33 PM

(Peace...I have a pinched nerve in the 3rd cervical vertebra...I can't shake MY head much, either...and if I look over my left shoulder for more than a few seconds, my right arm gets numb!....This, for a guy who stood on his head at his 50th and 55th birthdays while folks recited "You are old, Father William"! The doc says "don't do that anymore!")

(Im my youth, I feared it might injure the brain...but)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:37 PM

Skarpi:

There are many who see the world as you do, and notice the difference between the things known in the world, and that which does the knowing.

Until that distinction is observed personally, describing it is makes as much sense as describing Walmart's to a Trobriand Islander.

It is not so much a question of "rules of logic" as one of "windows of experience"; some windows look one way, some the other.

Bill won't like this, and he will have his reasons. zzzz

Anyway, the main thing I wanted to say is just, "No, my friend, you are not alone".


A

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 01:27 AM

Indeed kat, we have been here before.

That's an extraordinary claim Bill. Do you have any evidence?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: skarpi
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 02:41 AM

I didint know that you been in this matter before, but
anyhow still ----   only one man has given me a good answer.

and Ebbie you suprised alot becouse you have some many to give,
you have a great (áru) the colors around you ..........
you are a healing person.

all the best Skarpi Iceland

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 04:25 AM

Gnomic Dave, you are confusing different meanings of the words "come back", and of the word "we". Of course our materials are recycled, and as I've pointed out elsewhere at different parts of your own career (that is, of your materials), you have been in the core of at least one star (probably thousands), a gas close to absolute zero in deep space, part of countless other living things, trees, birds, insects, bacteria, wood, leaves, non living things like rocks, you have been spewed out of a volcano, you have been to the upper atmosphere and the depths of the sea.

But the "I" that you recognise as your self, that feeling of integrity and unity that separates YOU from other 'yous'... that is the big question. Is it a thing that has colonised your current body from outside, or does it only exist because of the Gnome of today?

I'm in favour of the latter, partly because it explains so much more. Like why my friend's 'soul' departed after his brain was deprived of oxygen, leaving a 'living' but non- responding body. Why a dose of simple chemicals (CH3COOH for example) can change people's personalities. Why people can have such widely different cultural beliefs even when the underlying hardware of the brain is the same. And most of all, I don't remember anything of any previous life.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 05:41 AM

That is indeed the big question, Paul and I agree with you. It does raise another question. If my 'soul' (my quotes as well - not just copying yours!) only exists because of Gnome today has it defied our previous logic and come into existance out of nothingness or is it also transient energy? If it is the former then we disprove ourselves. If it is the later, I believe that it is a form of energy that we cannot explain. I would be happy to hear arguments to prove this wrong though.

I am also blisfully unaware of any previous existance. I would love to know how it feels to all those things you mention but I don't think my brain could stand it! Perhaps the 'soul energy' that we do not understand does itself recycle. Perhaps it does have a sentience. Perhaps it is symbiotic rather than indepenent. Who knows? I am sure the same questions will rage throughout mans development for milleniae. I suspect by the time they are answered this Gnomic form will be elsewhere. Or should I say otherwhere?:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 09:34 AM

No. We die, we rot.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:15 AM

"But the "I" that you recognise as your self, that feeling of integrity and unity that separates YOU from other 'yous'... that is the big question. Is it a thing that has colonised your current body from outside, or does it only exist because of the Gnome of today?"

It is all a figment of your imagination.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:22 AM

There once was a sceptic from Deal
Who said "Although pain isn't real,
When I sit on a pin
And it punctures my skin
I dislike what I fancy I feel."

My working assumption is that feeling is somethaing that happens in any sufficiently complex recursive system. It's just a property of complex processes involving matter and energy (in the Physics sense of the word).

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: suzi
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:26 AM

I believe our soul passes over into the other side....only our body dies....

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:33 AM

No. We die, we rot.

So, retired, rather than we live to die and comeback you believe we live to die and compost?

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:42 AM

Correct!

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:43 AM

"So, retired, rather than we live to die and comeback you believe we live to die and compost?"

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:47 AM

My apologies, Skarpi. I didn't mean we shouldn't be discussing this again. I was just teasing BillD a little.:-)

(And, BillD...black cats are NOT bad luck...unless one believes it to be so!**bg**)

I am reading a fascinating book, "Blind Man's Bluff," about the early days, and on, of submarine espionage. One of the ways used to figure out where a lost bomb, and later, a lost sub, was the use of Bayes Theorem. I have not read an in-depth description of it, but the way it is described in the book, a Monte Carlo type betting on the seekers' "hunches," made me wonder if those of us who believe in reincarnation, karma, etc. could apply it to our beliefs.

katwithninelivesormore

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 11:15 AM

"maybe 'spirit' is the essential, enervating force of the Universe" Bill D

Bill, is that a typo or did you mean it? *G*

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 11:58 AM

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

How and where on earth did you draw that conclusion bobad?

DtG

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 12:27 PM

Hey, folks, I've already come back at least 50 times! Maybe a lot more than that.

You'd think I would have had enough sense not to....but who knows what the deal looks like from the other side, eh?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 12:31 PM

"Hey, folks, I've already come back at least 50 times!"

Hey LH, maybe it's time to compost.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 12:36 PM

All those old bodies have pretty much gone to dust by now, but you might be able to find some bones lying around if you know where to look.

Similarly, you might be able to find some of the old clothes I've thrown out in the last few decades.

Same basic deal.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 01:11 PM

John O'L "That's an extraordinary claim Bill. Do you have any evidence?"
*grin*....'here'...as in this discussion. You'd have to ask Little Hawk whether he has seen me "elsewhere"

Ebbie: *gulp* not a typo...just an embarrassing lapse of linguistic competence for a moment...for "enervating" substitute "energizing"
...although, given the current state of things,I suppose a case could be made for enervating.

suzi: The "other side" of what?

Amos: "Until that distinction is observed personally,"
...I don't suppose you want to hear my 40 minute lecture on the equivocation involved in that use of "observed"....No? Right-O, then!

katlaughing: That's why black cats were in the 'maybe' list with Athena and turtles... ;>). But, since all the cats I have known have had a bit of bad luck associated with them, perhaps it's a Universal Truth, but a trivial one?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 01:13 PM

Perhaps we are all Universal Truths AND trivial ones, Bill.:-)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 01:21 PM

.....maybe....

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 01:56 PM

That's ok, Bill. We don't get to use enervating very often. :)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 05:59 PM

In the place where you are, can you see a bright light?
Go towards the light. It's OK to cross over.

GO    TOWARDS       THE LIGHT

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:05 PM

arrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh! I just hit my nose on the floor lamp!

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:05 PM

Sorry, didn't mean to post that, my mouse has died and I was trying to teach myself how to do things with the keyboard. Just friggin' round as it were. I was trying to do a preview but it submitted. Again, sorry. Ignore that. Still don't know how to do a preview.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:15 PM

From Artful Codger: Originally, reincarnation was part of the orthodox Christian beliefs and scriptures. However, Constantine had all biblical references to it expunged because he felt that people needed a stronger spiritual goad, a greater sense of urgency.

I understood that Constantine only removed it because he was influenced by his favourite mistress/girlfriend/concubine who belonged to a sect that didn't include reincarnation in their beliefs. Otherwise it would still be in Christianity.
If we aren't reincarnated, how come a brand-new baby knows so much? Just look into those new eyes and see the wisdom there already.
I reckon I knew a lot more before the church and school system knocked it out of me!
But I'm a lot older and wiser now.
Don't ever stop looking for your truth, even if it takes a lifetime!
Robyn

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:15 PM

My fault. Sorry Bill. But I guess there's no going back.

Or is there?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:20 PM

I would have thought that reincarnation was what Jesus was talking about when he said he'd be back. Later interpreted as the resurrection.

(Preview - spacebar)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:23 PM

You know then feelings of deju vu you get sometimes? Have I said that before? Ah well, never mind.

When I was a lad I was on holiday on the Isle of Man. I had a dream one night about the end of the world. There were lights flashing and bells sounding. A cross was emblazoned in red on the skyline and people were screaming 'It's the end of the world, the end of the world!'

A couple of days later we went to the 'Fairie Glen'. The rest of the family wandered around the main path but me, being a 13 year old rebel, went futher afield. End result was I got lost and we ended up getting a much later tram back to Douglas. The tram was crowded and being the days when people didn't care if their kids were not in sight me and my little sister, Eileen and even littler brother, Stephan, were pushed to the front just behind the driver.

As we got into the outskirts of Douglas I could see a red neon cross on a hillside (It's still there btw) and something started to seem familiar. The bell on the tram started to clang and as the trolley arm lost its contact with the overhead power lines the lights flashed on and off. Just then the driver anounced 'It's the end of the line, the end of the line!'

Explanation? Of this post - Easy. Half a bottle of Grouse. Of the events at the time. Still don't know. But I'm sure there must be a good one.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:26 PM

Those who seek for more convincing evidence of reincarnation may want to check out the books written by Ian Stevenson, M. D.. I ahve nto read them, yet, but they certainly sound interesteing, esp. this one:

Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect
by Ian Stevenson

Children who claim to remember a previous life have been found in many parts of the world, particularly in the Buddhist and Hindu countries of South Asia, among the Shiite peoples of Lebanon and Turkey, the tribes of West Africa, and the American northwest. Stevenson has collected over 2,600 reported cases of past-life memories of which 65 detailed reports have been published. Specific information from the children's memories has been collected and matched with the data of their former identity, family, residence, and manner of death. Birthmarks or other physiological manifestations have been found to relate to experiences of the remembered past life, particularly violent death. Writing as a specialist in psychiatry and as a world-renowned scientific investigator of reported paranormal events, Stevenson asks us to suspend our Western tendencies to disbelieve in "reincarnation" and consider the reality of the burgeoning record of cases now available. This book summarizes Stevenson's findings which are presented in full in the multi-volume work entitled. Reincarnation and Biology: A Contribution to the Etiology of Birthmarks and Birth Defects, also published by Praeger.

Here's a bit about him:
        
Ian Stevenson, M.D. is Director, Division of Personality Studies and Carlson Professor of Psychiatry, both a part of the Department of Psychiatric Medicine, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia. He is the pre-eminent researcher in the study of reincarnation as well as being the leading scientist studying children who claim to remember previous lives. He has also made important studies of telepathy, near-death experiences, apparitions ("death-bed visions"), the mind-brain problem, and the survival of human personality after death.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: skarpi
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 08:11 PM

Well " I was a munk irish one " and then again " I was a
flightfighter " and now I Skarpi Iceland how about that ??

WHY do i get memories from this ?? Now you think I am
for sure " crazy " ?? heheheheh

And another thing -what kind of people are " us " I mean
why do I meet people witch have same faith as I ? are they one of " us " witch I say we are
those who note more a attention to each other than others around us ? why cant I talk about this whith who ever I like to ? with out getting this prase " no you are crazy men " there are no such thing around us " ???'

I med up with two person at the Getaway last year and both of them
are like " us " there are so much of brightnes around their
body and one of them can heal they are a good souls

My English is no good and sometimes i am having trouble
finding right words to what I like to say .

I got a book Called " ANAM CARA " friend of the soul or soul friend
in English I think , its about celtic faith among other things
and this book (affectiv )? I hope this a right word here :>)
me alot .

well what ever anyone say about what I believe I will hold on to my believe,
am I christian ?? or am i a person who are always looking for something out there ??? or am I pagan ?? at the moment I am in
the luthern church here in Iceland but every year I get far far
away from the luthern faith ............


well I´ll stop now I can say a lot more , but I am only thinking
uploud......


All the best Skarpi Iceland

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 08:16 PM

I don't recall seeing you in any of those past lives, Bill...but then, I haven't seen you yet in this life either.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 08:26 PM

indeed, Little Hawk...I might be a composite PhotoShop creation, with posts done by the same guy who wrote the clever "Shambles" program. But I'm not.....we know people who have met BOTH of us and will (probably) admit to it...In person, I am mild manned & polite...*wicked grin*

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 09:48 PM

I believe it. ;-) Now, what about that Shambles program? Amazing, isn't it? Only a genius-level programmer could have put that one together.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:14 PM

I understand what you are saying Skarpi.

One day-many years ago-when I was feeling very low, I got the urge to create a word collage. What I called 'word collages' were spontaneously created sayings or poems that I made by cutting out letters and words from old magazines & newspapers. The letters & words were different sizes, colors, and fonts. I'd lay the cut out letters and words on cardboard and then glue them to that carboard creating what thoughts came to me.

I don't have that word collage that I made that night, but I still remember most of the poem that I composed in that manner:

Man running around in circles
Life raining hurting. Why?
Never fear the way you see.
Know the power of the mind-
it's what it takes to free yourself
In dark days roll with the punches...

-snip-


That poem had at least one more line. But for some reason, I can't remember it. But each of the lines that I do remember are full of meaning for me.

Scarpi, I hope you will not fear the way you see. I hope that you will not doubt the power of your mind for it's what it takes to free your self.

All the best to you,

Azizi

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:34 PM

Skarpi there are many who will say you are crazy or maybe just mislead, because there is no proof for what you believe, and there are many phonies who will use such beliefs for their own destructive purposes.
This does not necessarily mean you are crazy or mislead, it just means that some people don't believe it.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:42 PM

What about just not knowing, and accepting that we just don't know?
    That doesn't mean we don't continue to try to know more and understand more, and as we learn or know more revise our beliefs and theories based on new knowledge. Over and over again, in our attempts at understanding 'how things work'and what is the underlying 'truth', principles' or scientific 'laws', what we had previously come to accept as 'fact' or 'truth' based on the most advanced knowledge of the day, continuously has proved to be only one step toward a further understanding, or even away from understanding, back into mystery again.
    Bill, I don't have the training in philosphy that you do, but however precisely one attempts to assign meaning to a word or concept, one will rarely, if ever, find universal agreement about that definition or concept. It seems to me that your position is also based on 'belief'.
    'Belief' is about accepting as true what we do not have enough information to know to be fact. 'Belief' is universal to the human experience and necessary to be able to function in the world, because none of us have the time or capacity to look for 'proof' of everything. It is necessary, to a certain extent, to operate as if many of our 'beliefs' are fact. But I think it important to recognize when we are operating out of 'belief' and assumption. Many beliefs may turn out to also be true, they are just not necessarily true.

    'Magic' that is not trickery or illusion is simply a phenomena that we don't yet understand.

Uhhh...I guess this has turned into thread drift. Sorry. And I bet some one on some thread has said pretty much the same thing before.

Janie

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: skarpi
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 04:49 AM

Or people have fair with the unknown and like Jane said a phenomena that we don't yet understand, behind the other door is something
that we have not jet learned to understand.??

I once had a dream about a woman I know and at the time she had cancer in
he body and the dream is like this :I lead in a long hallway
and its was long and I remember the light it was so bright
I have never in my short live time seen such a light it was
a amacing, well after a little walk we got into a room
and on the floor were three bodys ( dead ) there was an sheet on
them a white one . The sheet was taken off and there was my
grandmother and grandfather and their doughter witch is this
woman and there was so much peace around them ..........
Then I was walked out again and dream ended. Well to day
there are no cancer in her body .

So who were the message ?? that she would be okei ?? or was this
just a lesson for me ???

what do you think ?.


Azizi I was afraid at first but now I do not fair " I try to learn from this " .

All the best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:06 AM

I don't think I would like it.

imagine, you come back as an earwig or something, and all your pals are having a party. No one offers you a drink, cos you're an earwig.

and another thing how does god get you to agree. after all I'm a very conservative dresser. basically everything from the two quid counter at Matalan.

and god says to you, Al - put on the earwig suit. they're talking about you down there - go an listen, incognito as an earwig. then its downstairs with a red hot poker up the roozle for a million years - you did some bad stuff.

no wonder religion's dying out.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 09:53 AM

I think the Budhist version is very unfair. You are THAT close to Nirvana when you indvertantly step on a worm and have to start again. So sad...

Would the Welsh version be Llyf, Di and Cwm bach?

Cheers

DtF

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 10:02 AM

Skarpi, I think that the dreamer is the best interpreter of his or her dreams. This is partly so because individuals have their own dream language. For instance, when I'm in troubled. I often dream about there being lots of snow on my street. But when things get better, I dream of the snow melting on the street. Given that you live in a land where there is alot of snow, Skarpi, the symbol of snow probably means a completely different thing to you than to me.

So, Skarpi, I'm not sure what your dream meant besides what you say it means. Often the real meaning of the dream is the first one that you think of. And I believe that it's very important to take note of anye things that you don't say when you are telling that dream to other people. That thing [or things] may be some of the most important part{s} of the dream.

At least for me, when I think of what a particular dream means, if it feels like something "clicked" in my head or heart or soul-maybe all three of them, then I know that meaning is the right one.

Maybe that happens for others too, I don't know.

Positive vibrations,

Azizi

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 12:00 PM

Sorry to all my friends in the west - The middle one should be Dai, of course!

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 12:38 PM

What you are objecting to, Weelittledrummer, in your "earwig" example is the most primitive form of reincarnation belief imaginable...and a form that is held by a minority of people who believe in reincarnation these days.

It would be comparable to the most primitive forms of Christian or Islamic fundamentalism.

Basically, spiritual evolution is thought to work quite similarly to the natural evolution of species....in fact the one would be the extension or reflection of the other. They would work hand in hand.

Which is to say: less complex forms (and consciousnesses) tend to evolve over time into more complex forms (and consciousnesses). They do not devolve. So...you would only be likely to come back as an earwig if you were already as limited in consciousness as an earwig is.

You may actually BE that limited in consciousness, of course. ;-) Who am I to say? But I seriously doubt it.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 01:07 PM

Skarpi, it was a great day in my life when I suddenly realized and accepted that I will meet the people I need to know, go through the situations I must have, face and solve problems that will have the most meaning to me and will find myself in the right place where I need to be- without conscious effort or manipulation by me.

I had one of those watersheds moments several years ago when one of my sisters died. It was unexpected; her ailments were not life threatening so far as we knew. She was in a wheelchair because her knees were so bad but she was happy and talkative and teasing when I flew south and with my family went to see her at the nursing home. And the next day she died.

See, I was dithering about trying to decide whether I should leave Alaska and return to Oregon because I and my birth family are ageing and I knew that I didn't want to have a sibling die and have me fly down for the funeral and then home again, to be repeated numerous times.

But when that sister died I suddenly realized that each time that I need to be there, I will find myself there. I don't have to make the decision.

Speaking of meeting people I need to know- I treasure them.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 01:56 PM

who knows, an earwig might be a more highly developed than us. its not us thats setting this agenda. if there is an agenda.

I have no objection to spirituality, its just a gear that I don't go into easily. I don't have that easy access to those emotions.

i wouldn't be surprised if God had an earwig suit lined up for me, I never did get on with bosses.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 02:29 PM

ANother thing to keep in mind is that there is a lot of machinery in play with the general effort to push spiritual understandings into compliance with the forms of material perception. The result of this is a lot of crude invalidation along the lines of "What you THINK you see must be imagination, can't be real, doesn't conform, isn't normal, can't be proved and must be wrong...." and so on. The ideal of this sort of effort is to make the individual behave more like a material object.

Don't buy it. Be true to your own awareness and perception, and remember that crude invalidative messages like these are the biggest wooden nickel on the market.

And you know what they say about wooden nickels. Don't take any.

Love,


A

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 03:06 PM

God is not your boss, Weelittledrummer. The concept of bosses is one limited to competitive creatures such as human beings, dogs (pack animals), and goats (herd animals). God is simply the ocean in which you, the fish, is swimming. The ocean is powerful all right, but it has no orders for you to follow, no demands to be met, no punishments to mete out upon the disobedient. No axe to grind, in other words.

Oh, there are consequences for foolish acts, all right, but those just happen automatically...cause and effect. That's karma. There's no one casting judgement upon you, but if you drink too much, you'll still get a hangover. Cause and effect, that's all. The wise avoid foolish actions for this reason, and practice moderation. The reckless charge in, heedless of the cost.

Either way, it's your choice. That's what I call freedom. ;-)

"God" grants total freedom, within the obvious limitations of physical existence as we know it. People make a million laws and rules, and they take it away, bit by bit.

The worst thing I ever saw done to my freedom as a living being was being put in "school" against my own will from the age of 7. Preparation for a life of slavery is what that really was.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 03:50 PM

Something I have not heard articulated is the fact that religion- indeed, spirituality itself - is by its very nature subjective in its perception and experience. Mainstream teaching is stuffed with ideas that subsequently became accepted as inflexible dogma.

There are churches for instance, who note Saints Days and other meaningful notions by attaching them to particular days that they have agreed upon. (Not unlike Christmas itself. The 'Immaculate Conception' of Mary is an accepted idea that the powers thought explained the sitution.)

I remember years ago when I was actively pursuing understanding and listened one day to Rex Humbard, a television evangelist. He said, scornfully, You can't pick and choose. You can't say, I believe this and I don't believe that. You must accept the plan of salvation without question.

Well, I knew right then that was nonsense. Because that is precisely what the powers did; they picked and chose.

In my opinion.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 03:51 PM

I remember reading or hearing somewhere, a mention that the Dali Lama and other Buddhists were careful to take good care of the dogs which lived at the Potala in Tibet as some were believed to be reincarnated monks.

While I agree mostly with what LH has said about consciousness evolving and I liken it to going up the spiral of consciousness, on different spiritual planes, I rather like the idea that I have either already been a cat and/or may come back as one, again.:-)

kat

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 03:56 PM

" Bill, I don't have the training in philosphy that you do, but however precisely one attempts to assign meaning to a word or concept, one will rarely, if ever, find universal agreement about that definition or concept. It seems to me that your position is also based on 'belief'."

Janie...your post deserves a thoughtful, carefully worded reply. I'm not sure I can do it justice without boring you...

I have had that basic point made before by Little Hawk, Amos...etc...that I simply 'believe' something different. You ARE, of course, correct that we do not find "universal agreement about that definition or concept", but that is not quite the point.

(I just sat here, eating my lunch, and tried for 10 minutes to decide which of 4-5 different directions to go and what to begin with....)

...well...take the word 'belief' to start. What does it even mean to say "I believe"? In one sense, it indicates a different mental state than "I know". In another usage, it can simply indicate "this is my best guess, and I'm going to operate 'as if' it is the case until I get better information". There are a number of ways to explain common uses of that..and other..slippery words.
What *I* mean usually, is that 'believe' indicates a condition in which one specifically does NOT know. In the issues we often debate here, some folks are saying "I believe IN" something....this may be Jesus, telepathy, astrology, reincarnation, ghosts.....etc..etc..
   Naturally, some folks immediately reply "Nonsense!" to a lot of these 'beliefs'...meaning, I presume, that they do NOT 'believe' in the claimed phenomenon.
The problem is, each side often means more: claiming that their view IS 'true' or 'valid' or 'obvious'. You have seen this; "I KNOW my Jesus" or "That is obvious rubbish...no rational person would believe that if they really thought about it!"

What I often try to do in my interminable way...*grin*.. is to show where the USE of a word is either ambiguous, careless, equivocating, or sometimes just plain meaningless in certain contexts. You said that my "position is also based on belief", but some concepts have nothing to do with 'belief'...we don't 'believe' that 2+2=4; this is a definition. If one claims otherwise, we ask them what they MEAN. Are they referring to a different number base system? Is it a trick? (2 pints of some liquids mixed with 2 of some other liquids are not = to 4 pints, as their molecular structure allows them to intermix in less space) I have trick where I say "half of twelve is seven" and when someone says "that's impossible" I show them this XII ....XII.....cute, huh? I am 'equivocating' on the concept of 'half'.

In the same way, people use terms when they really do not realize what they are claiming, or state badly exactly what it is they wish to claim. This is understandable and natural, as not everyone gets it pounded into them in a class setting (like I did)what those subtle points are! But the result is, that most folks get the notion that IF it is just the case that 'beliefs' are just personal & subjective, then THEIR belief is just as good (valid, true, etc) as anyone else's....and then comes the 'feeling' that "just as good" means "probably true"......and "probably true" can easily mean 'worth fighting about', with all the implications that follow. See why I am concerned about how folks 'think' and how they communicate and defend their thinking?

What my "position" is, is that certain concepts are not subject to personal and 'subjective' definitions....that in order to debate and explore and discuss some topics, we MUST adopt the precise language and definitions that Mathematicians, Logicians and Philosophers have worked out over the centuries. Otherwise, we talk past each other and argue 'till we're blue in the face, each thinking the other is close-minded, ignorant, biased or just plain dumb!

I just read a discussion about whether my 'vocation', woodturning, is an 'art' or a 'craft'...I have read similar debates about whether some "form" is 'beautiful', and whether some behavior is 'fair' or 'nice'......yeah, it's not hard to explain how awkward it is in those cases to show that folks are 'equivocating' and using definitions differently, but ask about "heaven' or 'spirit' or 'mind' or 'God' or 'reincarnation', and folks often not only use the words differently, but often have no real idea what the concept might refer to! We get questions like: "Will we meet our pets in Heaven?" with little thought about what "heaven" might be, and what aspects of ourselves or our pets would be DOING this meeting. We assume that because there is a linguistic construct there is some corresponding reality. Plato did something similar and based his entire philosophy on it....he suggested that every thing that IS merely 'imitates' some 'eternal form'.....and this general notion has permeated Western thought for a couple thousand years.... the IDEA that some 'realm' can exist beyond the clunky one we inhabit is ingrained in us and much of our language....it just "ain't necessarily so".

Can I summarize all that? *sigh*....not easily...wasn't even half done...*wry grin*....but here's a try:
...It is a very different thing from saying "I do not accept your belief" to saying "your belief is wrong"....I cannot **DISPROVE** anyone's metaphysical beliefs, but that does not mean they are correct UNLESS I can disprove them.
--->> What I use to comment on various claims, beliefs, ideas and definitions is not, in itself, a belief<<---...It is a system of analysis agreed on by experts to objectively examine claims, not to make claims. Sometimes this analysis indicates that the claim and/or its defense is weak.....then one has to examine whether the claim or its defense can be improved in any way....and what it means if it can't!
   

We humans are very complex creatures...most organisms can't even consider these questions. We have spent a couple of hundred thousand years living in fear & superstition and only in the last 3000 years or so have we been able to even phrase the questions so we could LOOK for answers....is there any doubt that the superstitions that filled our early development should influence our attempts at answers?
   In my opinion, we must do as Descartes did, and 'doubt' all presumed answers...then see if reason can restore any of them.
It ain't easy....it's easier to just pick something comfortable and wrap it around us, and I agree that everyone does some of this in order to function, but some issues are just too important to take on faith or authority.......and everyone has to decide how hard they are willing to work to sort out the trickier parts.

I don't work half as hard as I ought to at it....I wish I could do better at explain it all...

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 04:37 PM

All knowledge derives from postulated realities about which one has certainty, Bill. The distinction you are making is not between knowledge and belief, but between the genuine beliefs which inform one's perceptions, and the social or pretended believes one gives oral subscription to.   Believing one exists, believing in gravity, believing one is in space are all deepseated beliefs, and asserting they are not so is a pretense, like that of the faith-healer who dislikes what he fancies he feels.

Your Cartesian approach is a good one, especially for dealing with systems like geometry, math and material science, where it works to "prove by challenge" and where reason has a relatively simple role to play.

But reason is, itself, a construct in which one believes. It includes for example a premise about time, about perception, and about the nature of if-then relationships about which one must not presume ownership. They have to be postulated as externals or the sandbox falls apart.

This is the formula of success in dealing with the mechanics of things of a material nature; but these requirements are not the same as truth. And, they get much less robust when you apply them to issues of awareness, creation, perception, intentionality, and the like, none of which have any role to play in the sandbox, and are preferred to be ignored whilke operating within it.

A

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 04:40 PM

"but some issues are just too important to take on faith or authority......."

Ah. Bill? Since you truly do not 'believe' the perceptions and experiences that others of us do, in what way is this issue "too important to take on faith or authority"?

If your view is correct and when we die, that's it, then there was no issue worth bothering about. If the other view is correct and we get to give you a hug beyond...?

You know, a great many accepted views are inaccurate. For instance, I know you will agree that just a single exception to an aphorism negates the the aphorism, i.e. Black people can't swim (as I've heard it said!) then the first Black person you see swimming makes nonsense of the aphorism.

OK. Have you heard that horses are dumber and more unteachable than most other animals? Since I have known TWO horses in my life that were astonishingly attuned to human expectations and needs I cannot agree with that 'truism'. I KNOW that if a horse wishes to please you, at least some horses are capable of incredible understanding.

My brother told me that he can't imagine why he had previously been of the firm belief that there was no such thing as thought transference or valid extra sensory reports. A couple of experiences of his own set him back on his heels.

The 'mystery', by its very nature, is not easily graspable.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 04:42 PM

I'm sure there are some cases of human souls coming back in animal bodies, Kat, I just think that most human souls are more likely to come back as humans...but...if a soul wanted to be a dog or cat in a given life and had good reason for the experience...then why not? I also think there are cases where an animal soul crosses the line and reincarnates as a human being. That again is evolution in process.

In the case of earwigs, though, it's a long stretch... ;-) I think an earwig might be more likely to come back as a grasshopper or a praying mantis, perhaps.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 05:30 PM

-Thanks, Bill. To the extent that I get your meaning, I agree with you.

Now, I'm about to take a deep breath and wade in to stuff that is way over my head. It appears to me that metaphysics is about the use of metaphor to make meaning out of the incredible amount of phenomena and experience for which we do not have sufficient 'facts' to logically define, and also as psychological defense to keep anxiety about survival at bay. I understand 'spirit', 'soul', 'god' etc. as metaphor. I consider belief systems about the same to also be metaphor. "Chunky stuff", i.e. matter, is not metaphor. However, as science continues to explore the nature of matter and energy, we find we have to continually revise our understanding of what matter is, what its attributes are, what are the laws that govern it. One day, we may factually understand consciousness, and at that point metaphors such as spirit and soul will no longer be useful. It is likely, however, that we will then have awareness of additional phenomena to which we are currently oblivious, but for which we have not yet discovered or developed the knowledge base to understand, and there will be new metaphors to make meaning of those.

Therefore, I think it reasonable and logical to conclude that we just don't know what happens after what we call death, and the most we can say about it is that it is a mystery.

Janie



Janie

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:35 PM

"Spirit" and "soul" are indeed metaphors, Janie. They are metaphors for thought. Everything is made of thought, and it is thought that both forms and informs matter. Matter is a thought that has been slowed down enough to be perceivable by what we term "the physical senses".

"God" is also a metaphor. It's a metaphor for the one original thought, the summation of all thoughts, the origin of all thoughts, and the power of all thoughts. Since it is thought that created the Universe, "God" is characterized as the Creator. Most people see "the Creator" as a larger and more powerful reflection of themselves, so they clothe God with human characteristics, just a thinking reptile might clothe God with reptilian characteristics.

God is beyond human or reptilian or any other such specific defining terms, being simply pure thought, in essence. Thought also manifests as light...hence...to be "enlightened". A thought appearing in a thoughtless void is a light appearing in the darkness. A void is simply a lack of anything. Thought can fill that void, give it meaning and form, and manifest itself in any way whatsoever.

;-)

(and now I await Bill's gigantic philosophical response to that....)

"Where is your PROOF???????"   (smile)

Does a drop of water attempt to prove the existence of the limitless ocean of which it is one infinitesimal part? No. If it is like most other drops of water, it is so fixated upon its own tiny concerns and desires, and the actions of its immediate neighbours, that it is barely even aware the ocean exists. Nevertheless, the ocean continues to provide a grand and generous field for the water droplet to act out its little dramas upon. (one of those dramas being "the search for proof" when the droplet has made an assertion or is questioning the assertion of another droplet)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:45 PM

LH, I accept that you believe everything is made of thought. And mayhaps it will prove true one day. But it is still belief as opposed to fact. I suspect that your use of 'thought' is also a metaphor for something that is not yet understood.



Janie

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:54 PM

Ebbie...yep, I have commented several times that it ain't fair that if I am right, I don't get to say "I told you so!" *grin*...but on the other hand, if YOU are right, you get to gloat for eternity!

Still....as far as we can prove, we get ONLY this life....and whether we do or whether we get infinite lives, we have to live this one, and as I said up there about suicide bombers, the details of what people believe ABOUT 'eternity' and the rules for getting there affect how they behave in this life, and thus affect you, me and the very fabric of our being! I HATE being threatened by other folks superstitions and off-the-wall interpretations of doubtful texts. You make a point about Rex Humbard...I consider that G. Bush may LISTEN to 'ol Rex and his ilk!


Janie...all that stuff may be "over your head" as far as technical language and detailed analysis, but you do have a knack for it. Your statement about metaphysics is really very insightful and remarkably close to what happens as we attempt to get a grasp on both existence, and how to TALK about existence. Indeed, the language of 'spirit', 'soul' & 'god' are quite useful to provide 'color' to our feelings and expressions of wonder. I use them myself, but always with the understanding that they ARE metaphor....and most everyone that knows me is aware that I don't specifically refer to a 'soul' that has proven objective reality apart from and in some other 'realm' than my body.

Do I think it's worth asking whather there might be objective truth to the notion of other 'realms' and 'spirits'? Sure...as long as we don't assume the answer in the very way we phrase the question.

Right above, Little Hawk states: "I'm sure there are some cases of human souls coming back in animal bodies,...".......mercy! Look at the embedded premises in that simple opinion. 1) There are souls 2) they can be separate(d) from bodies. 3) they can re-enter bodies 4) The supply of souls is unlimited, since there are enough for 6 billion people AND 'some' animals...etc... (There are other implicit assumptions about 'location' & 'status' of souls which have NOT re-entered bodies and some serious ambiguities about whether all souls which ARE now in bodies have been previously in OTHER bodies...and what this does to the 'soul inventory'.)

   The point is, L.H. may BE correct, but such statements are ONLY personal beliefs, even though they are presented as givens.

It is that "this is how it works" attitude that concerns me, and why I wish for a more careful expression of the concepts.

Up there ^ I made a long attempt to suggest the adoption of precise language for discussing these things. In the physical realm, we immediately see the need for a "bureau of standards" to define exactly what a 'yard' or 'meter' is...or what makes a 'pound'...Actual examples are kept in safe places, just in case...and we don't let just anyone sell us a tape measure with his own opinion of how long an inch is. The length of a second is determined by measuring the decay of Cesium atoms...we KNOW these things because WE define them, then secure the definition. In the same way, the mathematicians, philosophers etc. have spent considerable time working out 'standards' for examining claims and the language that we need to compare notes ABOUT the claims.
If someone makes a claim that obviously breaks the rules for stating a reasonable hypothesis, we may be forgiven if we doubt...whether we can prove him wrong or not.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:58 PM

(and while I was composing, Janie made my point MUCH more succinctly than I would have..*grin*)Your 'drop of water' metaphor really does not address the point you tried to make.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:59 PM

Reincarnation: The ultimate in recycling . . . .

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:30 PM

I'm with Bill on this one. Bill will no doubt castigate me for taking this position without rigorous proof but - hey, so what?

My current 'soul-analogy' is with a candle-flame. A flame isn't a 'thing', it's a process. But it looks like a thing, you can feel it (ouch), it responds to its surroundings, it can change its surroundings, but it's not a thing, it's the manifestation of chemical changes in the candle. The chemical changes in the brain are vastly more complicated than those in a candle, so the brain's 'flame', the soul, is more complex than a candle flame. But it is still not a 'thing', it's a process. And 'thought' is just a flicker of that flame. So no, I don't buy LH's basic premise that 'everything is made of thought'. That isn't a 'given' for me.

So, where does the candle flame go when it burns out? Same place the soul goes, I reckon. Of course I can't PROVE this, but I've never encountered anything to convince me otherwise. And I do recognise that this world isn't here for my benefit, so I don't expect 'the truth' to be comfortable. Just because a belief in an immortal soul someday may turn out to be helpful for me, wouldn't make it true. Our beliefs are facts about us, not about the universe.

I do accept that my 'belief' may well be wrong, so at least I'm not going to shoot everyone who doesn't share it. And since I don't believe we survive, I don't really think it matters, so - 'whatever helps you get through the day' - I just share the concern that others may try to force their tenets on me in the belief that they have to destroy my body to save my soul. THAT is the point at which belief begins to matter.

All badly put, as I'm sure people will be quick to tell me, but - you did ask.

Andrew

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:12 PM

As a psychotherapist, metaphor is my stock-in-trade. Much of the work is about helping people find the tools (and then to learn how to use them) to begin to identify their beliefs about themselves, others and the world. The first, and in many ways, the most important step in the process is to learn to recognize that much that we treat as truth is actually belief. The next step is to acquire the tools and learn the skills to exam those beliefs to determine if they work for the person and the survival of the species in terms of being able to function adequately or well in their lives, relationships and the larger society. If not, then they work toward altering those beliefs using a variety of techniques and tools, including socratic reasoning. More simply, I try to help people answer the question "Do my beliefs facilitate my ability to live life on life's terms?" (and do they allow others to do the same.) Metaphor is one of the most powerful tools of the trade, and in deciding on intervention strategies, I am constantly striving to find metaphors that work within a person's over-all paradigm.

I agree, Bill, that failure to recognize the difference between belief and objective reality causes much woe, not just for civilization, but for the individual.

Janie

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:18 PM

"Still....as far as we can prove, we get ONLY this life"

It comes for free, a gift. Now people want more? Sheesh!

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: John O'L
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 09:37 PM

I have nothing mathematical, scholarly or even logical to offer, but the most accessable incident I can think of which keeps me believing is my daughter's first day in the school band.

She is a very reserved girl, not shy, but careful. Like her dad, she prefers to know exactly where she's going before she goes. The first band rehearsal that year for some reason was not in the hall but the library and when we walked in there were about thirty kids with instrument cases all over the place, some assembling their instruments, some setting up their music stands, some already seated and warming up, others apparently just walking or standing around talking, and parents, at least of most of the beginners all trying to find a spot not too much in someobody's way.

A riotous cacophony of sound and movement, I was intimidated by it and I knew that she would be too. But where was she? She'd found a bit of floor space for her trombone (which was at that time nearly as big as herself), had opened her case and was assembling it as natural as you like. She then took it to a chair and stood it on its bell on the chair, went back for her music and stand, set them up, sat down and waited calmly.

She had not looked for a lead from what others were doing, and neither did she wade in and bluff her way through. She simply fitted in, and watching her do it there was only one conclusion possible for me: She's done this before.

It is worth noting alsoo that after six months she was invited to join the Intermediate Band, and after another three months, the Regional Band. I won't bore you with the significance of these achievements except to say she still (Four years later) holds the record as the youngest ever member of the Regional Band.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: John O'L
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 09:44 PM

That submitted when I was trying to preview it, so sorry for the typos, and here's the paragraph I hadn't even written yet -

She had knowledge and experience of playing trombone in a band which she could not have possibly picked up in her (then) seven years of life. She had at that time had absolutely no contact with anything of that nature, even remotely.


Now, preview...

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 09:59 PM

We can only prove things about this life, because that's where we are at the moment. ;-) If we were somewhere else, we could prove things about that state of existence, but not about this one. Proof is strictly limited to the board upon which the game is being played, so to speak...since the game is not able to be played anywhere BUT on that board. This does not mean that there may not be other games available at another time.

Bill, I am just as worried about Bush's reliance upon weird religious notions as you are. ;-)

All the things I mention when talking about reincarnation, Bill, are not absolute beliefs of mine, but they are things that seem quite probable to me. My absolute beliefs only concern matters I've experienced directly in this life. There's a lot of other stuff I think is likely or probable...among which is reincarnation, etc....

By the way, my Dad passed away back in May this year, and my mother and I keep having these dreams where he's in the house, wandering around, talking about his business like usual (he was a 7-day-a-week workaholic who basically was interested in nothing except his entrepreneurial business ideas, most of which were extremely unrealistic, to put it mildly).

I don't think he knows that he died!!! In fact, I'm sure he doesn't know it. I have directly confronted him in several of those dreams, saying, "Look, Dad, you passed away on May 30th this year at the hospital. You're not in a body anymore. There is nothing you can do with the business here anymore. Why don't you be done with it, and move on to the next thing? Wouldn't it be more interesting than hanging around here?"

He won't have any of that. He refuses to discuss the possibility that anything has changed. He doesn't want to talk about anything except the same old stuff like before. It's damned frustrating, I can tell you. You couldn't talk sense to him when he was alive, and you can't do it now that he's dead either.

And no, Bill, I'm not joking. My mother and I have both been having those same dreams frequently in the last couple of months. Some souls are so stuck on this Earthly existence that they just WON'T think about anything else. My father never believed in anything spiritual or non-physical, he never was willing to talk about it, and he still isn't, it seems.

Maybe this is what you will be like after you shuffle off this mortal coil, eh, Bill? You'll show up in relative's dreams and say, "Whaddya mean I died? I'm right here talking to you, aren't I? I never died. The dead can't talk or do anything, and I'm talking, aren't I? So prove I died. Where's your proof? The burden of proof is on you." ;-) (that IS a joke, Bill)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 10:50 PM

Exactly, LH. All the rest is mystery.

I have known people who have prophetic dreams, usually, but not always, forseeing the death of a family member who is not ill or otherwise infirm or extremely old. For example, a friend's mother is prone to dream of the death of family members 6 to 8 weeks before they actually die. (What a burden!) Her oldest daughter, otherwise seemingly quite healthy and robust, died at age 18 from an acute appendicitis attack before she could reach the hospital. The mother dreamed the daughter was killed about 6 weeks before. The mother had been frantic during that 6 weeks because of prior experiences of dreams correctly predicting imminent death of other family members. I have no reason to doubt the mother's experience. I am certain there is an explanation, but what that explantion may be is a complete mystery to me.

On another thread, several months ago, I shared an experience I had immediately after the death of my sister where I 'felt' her consciousness move through my mind like butterfly wings, communicating "Janie, it's beautiful. I don't know why I was so afraid." Maybe that was a communication from the otherside of death. Maybe it was a stress induced hallucination. I don't know and neither does anyone else. That experience is a mystery.

LH, maybe the dreams you and your mother have about your father indicate he is still around. Maybe they indicate that both of you are still working through issues around how his workaholism made him unavailable and unreachable in life, and here he is, still unavailable in death. One explanation may be as plausible as the other. Maybe they both ,if provable, would turn out to be true. If one works best for you, then go with it. Belief is not synonymous with fiction or fantasy. But it is also not synonymous with fact or truth.

And, I did not know you lost your father this spring. My condolences.

Janie

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 11:32 PM

Funny...I have been having dreams about MY parents the last couple of years, and they have been gone for 27 and 14 years, respectively.
...I never used to dream about them much at all, but I find myself going 'back' to the old family house, or discussing things with my Dad...or helping my Mom find something...etc....strange little interludes in my even stranger dreams...

I know how dreams are part of the way we process the stresses and concerns of daily life, and I am astounded sometimes at the themes and details and convoluted situations I can create while asleep. I always liked 'flying dreams' where I could soar, levitate and bobble about in the air...but a few nights ago, I dreamed ABOUT having flying dreams and was complaining to (someone) that I hadn't had any recently....so I found myself getting a lesson ABOUT flying, so I could really fly ....and again have realistic dreams! I was VERY upset when I woke and found I had 'only' dreamed it.

Now, I submit that that ranks as a pretty creative, meaningful dream...but I suspect that, although it was probably a reaction TO something, it all happened totally within ME, and was not influenced by anything except my own chemistry, position in the bed and random firing of neurons, which my semi/sub-concious mind tried to make sense of by organizing bits of memory in some coherent story line.

...and I'd wager that ALL dreams work this way. I have had VERY intense dreams, like most of us, and sometimes they seemed almost frighteningly 'real'...but **NOTHING** ever happened to indicate that they were more than my subconcious coping with aspects of life that I had not adequately processed while awake.

People have had VERY startling experiences both asleep and awake, and research is slowly showing some of the processes within us that can account for visions, 'visitations', 'voices', sounds and other phenomena. So what? Well, I happen to think that Occam's Razor is a pretty good approach to deciding about unusual happenings....and the more science can tell us about what is really possible, the less we have to postulate arcane notions that stretch the imagination into what may be IMpossible.

I love a good yarn...and I love science fiction...but I also think that the truth may be more interesting than some of the most compelling 'maybes' that we winder about.

Your mileage may vary.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 11:48 PM

LH:

If he persists, ask him when he decided NOT to change, and see if you can get him to find out what first began that decision. It might shift him.

A

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:18 AM

Heh! Thanks for the various advice, people.

Here's the really weird part. My Dad, who never wanted to "waste his time" discussing anything spiritual had a surprise visitation from his brother's spirit a couple of months or so after the brother died. That was quite a few years ago. At any rate, the brother spontaneously appeared in the passenger seat of my Dad's van while he was driving down the highway and asked some pointed question about whether the inheritance money was going to his children! (my Dad was the executor of the will) My Dad said the money was all tied up by the lawyers at the moment, his brother glared at him and vanished!

Now, believe me, this was NOT the sort of thing my Dad was interested in, believed in, gave a damn about, or wanted to be bothered with. However, he did tell me and my mother about it when he arrived home. After that he showed no further interest in tbe matter.

He just basically wasn't interested in anything that wasn't rooted directly in this physical world, no matter what happened. In the last few weeks of his illness a business friend of his who was quite religious suggested he should pray for healing. He rejected that idea scornfully, saying, "Prayer would NOT help." The last thing on Earth you'd ever find him do was praying, because he didn't believe there was anything out there to pray to.

He also saw the spirits of slain soldiers passing out of their bodies during firefights in WWII...but this gave him no belief in life after death. I asked him where he thought their spirits went. He said that he figured they just sort of dispersed and vanished.

So there you go. Most people believe exactly what they want to believe, evidence be damned! ;-) They will just interpret the evidence to suit their desired beliefs. My Father certainly did.

Or...if all else fails...you can just fall back on ignoring things that raise troubling questions in your mind and focusing on something else instead. That's denial, and it's very common human behaviour.

Bill - You might be intrigued to know that I consider dreams to be real...but not in this physical reality. They're real in their own reality. The rules of the game are very different there, needless to say. Esoteric literature calls the dream reality the Astral dimension, and it's a dimension of emotionally charged thoughts. In it you can do a whole lot of stuff you can't do here, as we all know, and you can avoid certain mishaps that are not so avoidable here (like physical injury, illness, death, being trapped in one scene and timeline until it's over, etc...). It's less static than here, more fluid, far less predictable or controllable (unless you really know how), and can be great fun or really scary or anything else at all. It's also more transitory than here. What happens in the dream reality is certainly connected intimately with one's subconscious mind and emotional issues, but that doesn't mean it's not real. ;-)

I love those flying dreams too, but I haven't had any in some time now.

I did have a dream once in which I was shot and killed by some criminals! I rose out of my dead body, looked at it in some shock, realized I was a spirit now and nobody could hurt me anymore, and then got angry and went after them...and they could see me...and they KNEW I was a ghost! This terrified them and I chased them all over the place quite gleefully for awhile.

This disproves the old wive's tale that if you die in a dream you'll never wake up from it. (For me, anyway.)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:31 AM

I've died in dreams many many times, LH. I've drowned. I've had the sun fall directly on my head. I've been stabbed in the back by a certain former acquaintance of ours. I've even had my head chopped off with a sword. Never in my life have I heard such an awful metallic whoooosh!, and I hope I never hear it again!

I was 'me' in that dream, but different physically; the voice was much higher in pitch, and the hair flying around my face was very long and black and tangled - looked like it hadn't been combed in a decade). In the dream I saw my head lying there on the ground in front of me. In absolute shock, I'd picked it up and tried to put it back on my neck, holding it in place while just screaming with hysterical rage - in some unfamiliar language I could not make heads or tails of - at the one who slew me.

And stole my babies after she slew me.

Now, that latter experience was no 'random firing of neurons' in some unknown location deep within my semi-conscious brain. I still suffered that horrible painful slicing through the left side of my neck for about a year or so afterwards. And there's a lot more to this story but this is already WAY more than enough for a Mudcat thread, I think! So just suffice it to say that in my best estimation to date, it was no 'dream'. It was a past life experience.

Or rather, a past death experience.

And nothing too surprising either. Times were pretty barbaric, way up there in Finland a thousand years ago ....

:-)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Alice
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:38 AM

I have had experiences that probably cannot be explained by the human mind. I just accept that they are inexplicable. After all, human beings are very limited in understanding all that is in the universe. I don't say yes or no to what comes after this life. After life I hope there is more understanding of something that is not this life. In the meantime, each moment now is what I live for... and I enjoy how detailed and dramatic my dreams are.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 10:28 AM

Alice, well said.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 10:37 AM

"They're real in their own reality."

....like Popeye, I guess.

It's hard to argue with a tautology.

(William of Occam would have slit his throat with his own 'razor' if he had to sort thru your metaphysics, Little Hawk... ;>)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 10:51 AM

I very much appreciate the vivid imagery and intriguing mystery of my dreams too, Alice -- but whether I enjoy it or not depends on context.
For example, if I'd been in ecstacy over a dream like the one I described above, I'd know without question that I DID really lose my head, and it was still lost.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 11:21 AM

Occam's razor does not work well where it requires the suppression of information in order to choose the simpler explanation.

A

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 11:26 AM

If someone makes a claim that obviously breaks the rules for stating a reasonable hypothesis, we may be forgiven if we doubt...whether we can prove him wrong or not.

Good thing Louis Pasteur didn't care if they *believed* in his unreasonable hypothesis!

It seems to me we keeep going round and round with "you cannot prove this in a scientific manner" and a "you cannot prove it, scientifically, that it is NOT so."

Has anyone read any of the books by the fellow for which I provided a link? The one who studied and wrote about children and reincarnation? Bill, he seems like someone you might respect?

BTW, Bill...you would be an excellent Rosicrucian...a walking question mark who will NOT take someone else's word for anything and HAS to be able to PROVE what is postulated in the monographs. (I mean that sincerely!)

kato'ninelives

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Cruiser
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 11:39 AM

My parsimonious answer with a song connection:

"When You're Hot You're Hot"
"When You're Not You're Not"

When You're Dead You're Dead
When You're Not You're Not

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:01 PM

"Good thing Louis Pasteur didn't care if they *believed* in his unreasonable hypothesis!" ...yeah, but the cases are not comparable because Pasteur's were testable and provable....soon they HAD to believe.

"Occam's razor does not work well where it requires the suppression of information..."

"suppression"??? No one is suggesting suppression. 'Information' comes in various flavors. Occam's razor is a filter intended to taste-test ALL explanations OF information, compare it to other explanations, and see if it can be forwarded to other filters. If information fails to explain the phenomena, I guess you could say it is rejected until expanded or corrected.

" Pluritas non est ponendea sine necessitate!" ..it's that necessitate that is the rub. If your metaphysics requires lots of non-demonstrable assumptions, then the razor suggests that it is on shaky ground...as long as simpler, testable assumptions are available.

"demons in your stomach" was a nice theory until science discovered that too many hot peppers gave you ulcers! *grin*

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:14 PM

Bill, a dream is testable within the dream. The Afterlife is testable within the Afterlife. Neither one of them is testable here in the physical because they are NOT here in the physical. ;-)

And the physical is not testable in a dream or in the Afterlife...but it IS testable here.

Your assertions are based simply upon your predilection to insist that one theatre of operations, the physical, is the only real theatre that exists. You're like a chess player who will not accept the existence of checkers, whist, scrabble, poker, or backgammon...except as (in your view) insubstantial mental notions with no foundation in reality.

Every game, as I said before, is played strictly on its own board (or within its own rules and conditions) and is not testable outside of those. Observable to some extent, perhaps...able to be commented upon and debated about...but not testable.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:22 PM

"demons in your stomach" was a nice theory until science discovered that too many hot peppers gave you ulcers!"

It turns out that there really are demons in the stomach causing ulcers, they are known as helicobacter pylori.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:30 PM

"Demons" in that context is basically a metaphor for "something bad that is hurting me". So? When one finds out some more details about what that something bad is, one uses different words to describe it. All words are just symbols. He who uses more complex or modern symbols may rest under the illusion that he knows all there is to know about the matter, but he is probably wrong about that. ;-)

You can't fully grasp reality with words, only with direct experience.

Unfortunately, words are all we've got to communicate with on this forum...

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:35 PM

"Unfortunately, words are all we've got to communicate with on this forum..."

What about vibes, man.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:48 PM

I think the most relevant point Bill is trying to make (not that he needs me to speak for him, and if I speak incorrectly for him, I'm pretty sure he will let us all know) is simply that it can be very important to distinquish between what is belief and what is fact. To assert that something is a belief as opposed to a fact simply means there is not objective proof of its truth or validity and makes no statement about the actual validity of the belief.

Having said that, people all over the place, probably all of us, hold beliefs for which there does exist objective proof that invalidates those beliefs. We just are not aware that the proof exists. I mean, there is a whole bunch of information and objective knowledge out there that I simply have never run accross. If I recognize my notion as belief, then I am always open to the possibility that some information may come along that may require some revision on my part. If I do NOT recognize a notion as belief, but mistake it for fact, then I will ignore or even deny any evidence that may come down the pike that is contrary to that belief. If I fail to distinquish belief from objective truth, I may decide it is reasonable, logical, (not to mention holy,) to hijack an airplane and fly it into the World Trade Center. I may think it is irrefutably logical and correct to murder an abortion doctor. I may decide there is irrefutable logic in trying to kill all the Jews in Europe, or I may think that kidnapping and enslaving Africans and bringing them to work in the sugar cane fields is warranted without any question. In other words, instead of being rational about those beliefs, I rationalize my actions in service to those beliefs. When I fail to understand my beliefs to be beliefs but think they are truths, then when you believe differently from me you are necessarily an infidel, an apostate, a creep, or at best, sadly but absolutely wrong, 'cuz both of us can not be right.

LOve,
Janie

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:50 PM

even better! Demons we can comprehend and study. Now, about nomenclature.. ;>)

Little Hawk...you continue to argue as if tautologies and circular definitions demonstrate some truth!

"The Afterlife is testable within the Afterlife" **IS** a claim in which a premise or two are assumed in order to support the conclusion!

If wishes were horses, beggars might indeed ride!...and so might I!

There 'might' be an afterlife, but you don't show it by stating it, and you certainly deal with the problem of testing it by shrugging and saying "it's not testable here"....HERE is where we are. I don't care what interesting images/'memories'/concepts you have swirling around in your head, there is no reason to assume you got them from some other life, afterlife or 'alternate plane of existance'. Glib assurances that I 'will be surprised' someday don't move me much.

I repeat...HERE is where we are. 'There' is merely a fascinating concept with no substance, like "Nirvana" "heaven" "phlogiston" "ether" and "Platonic realms". They are easy to believe in if you are programmed to like believing.

geeez...why not go whole-hog and immerse yourself in The Urantia movement? They gots a whole BUNCH of realms to explore!

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:00 PM

Little Hawk,

Internal experience is subjective. The person with schizophrenia 'hearing' voices telling that person to kill some one or themselves (they are called command hallucinations)experiences those voices as very real and therefore, very compelling. But there is no one telling him to do that. His brain chemistry is out-of-whack and is tricking him.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:05 PM

Here is where part of us is, Bill. The part that is centered in this physical body, and the part that associates itself consciously only with an ego it built around that temporary physical body.

I don't think that is all of what we are. You do. Therein lies our debate. All paths to enlightenment (and there are many) are concerned with getting past the limited consciousness that identifies itself only with the limitations of the mortal body-mind construct.

Janie, your last post was very well said.

"it can be very important to distinquish between what is belief and what is fact" Absolutely! And we all begin trying to distinguish that at a very young age. I was one of the first kids in my age group, for instance, to decide that the "Santa Claus" story simply had to be mythological, because it didn't jibe at all well with a whole lot of known facts! I was a very logical and observant kid, and have remained so, I can assure you.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:17 PM

If re-incarnation is a fact I have all sorts of awkward questions to ask, Like:

Where are all the souls stored?

How is the soul of a dead person assigned to another body?

Are there a finite number of souls in existence? How does the sytem adjust to population growth (ie. are new souls created out of nothing)?

Do other forms of life have souls (including bacteria and viruses)? If the answer to this question 'yes' are souls exchanged between species as Buddhists believe?

If only humans have souls what happened before humans existed and how and when did the re-incarnation 'system' come about?

What happens after the human race (inevitably?) becomes extinct? Will there be lots of 'redundant' souls with nowhere to go?

If there is life elsewhere in the Universe does each inhabited planet have its own self-contained system or can souls be exchanged between planets?

I can probably think of lots more questions - does anyone have any answers?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:23 PM

The definition of "objective" is a subtle but important issue when it comes to dealing with issues that are in some way transcendental to the normal continuum of objects. Because when you are dealing with this area, objectivity gets wonky. What's "objective" to God? It's a similar issue. Objectivity in Bill's sense is a self-fulfilling premise.

It's paradoxical -- one the one hand you have the self-fulfilling premise of material space time and objects, which by its nature makes "proving" anything outside that real impossible on its own terms. On the other hand you have the self-fulfilling premise that thought and consciousness are in fact where objective frames of reference COME from, and their "plasticity of authorship" makes objectivity an essentially hollow proposition. These two engines, both internally self-consistent and both mutually exclusive, like the battle between the sexes, make for a never-ending carousel ride of circular argument.

"Thought is a byproduct of matter and energy and its nature must be proven in alignment with the fundamental premises of objectivity as experienced in the physical universe."

"The whole framework of space-time is an artifact of perception, which is born from the creative power of the non-material viewpoint that is the true nature of selfhood; therefore the notion of objectivity is just another mock up to try to force the spirit into alignment."

These are poles in an arguing machine which has achieved perpetual motion.


A

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:40 PM

Okay.

Where are all the souls stored?

Sheesh. Gimme a break! I might ask you: Where is all the electricity in the Universe stored? Same answer. Everywhere and nowhere. Souls do NOT take up physical space!

How is the soul of a dead person assigned to another body?

A soul is not exactly assigned to a body. It builds a body, one cell at a time, through normal biological processes after conception, fertilization or whatever is needed has occurred to start off the process. This would be as true of a plant or a jellyfish as it would be of a human being. Life, in the form of spiritual energy, coalesces and builds a body one cell at a time.

Are there a finite number of souls in existence?

No. There are an infinite number of souls in existence, just like there's an infinite amount of potential energy available at all times.

How does the sytem adjust to population growth (ie. are new souls created out of nothing)?

No problem whatsoever. Yes, new souls are indeed created out of what you would term "nothing", but you only call it nothing because you can't see it with your physical eyes. Population growth is of no significance whatsoever in the larger picture (beyond this planet), because there are probably a billion different worlds available on which to reincarnate, not just this one tiny little planet here.


Do other forms of life have souls (including bacteria and viruses)?

Yes, because everything is made of spiritual energy which could be called "soul energy" if you want to call it that. Soul energy is consciousness. More advanced levels of consciousness produce more advanced lifeforms.

If the answer to this question 'yes' are souls exchanged between species as Buddhists believe?

Some buddhists do believe that, and so do some Hindus. It may occur. If so, it would be rather similar to the process of evolution that occurs in the development of physical creatures, which gradually change and evolve into new forms. If that's believable on a physical level, then why not on a soul level? It seems unlikely to me that a highly advanced consciousness like a human would reincarnate as a simple consciousness like an ant...because it's too big a shift. Likewise, it's too big a shift to expect ants to evolve into human beings too, isn't it? But it's not so big a shift to expect apes to evolve slowly into human beings...our science community subscribes to that. I think it is quite probable that spiritual evolution mirrors physical evolution in a number of ways.

If only humans have souls what happened before humans existed and how and when did the re-incarnation 'system' come about?

Humans are NOT the only ones. Everything has a soul. Even a planet or a rock has a soul...but way different from yours or mine.

What happens after the human race (inevitably?) becomes extinct? Will there be lots of 'redundant' souls with nowhere to go?

No big deal. Life will move on and take new forms. Intelligent species will still exist in various place, but they might look very different from us. We would probably reincarnate AS them, in that case. We wouldn't BE "human" any more, and it wouldn't matter in the least.

If there is life elsewhere in the Universe does each inhabited planet have its own self-contained system or can souls be exchanged between planets?

I think souls can probably be exchanged between planets, no problem, but I do think that most souls get accustomed to a certain place and tend to keep coming back to it repeatedly for that reason. They don't HAVE to, but they do.

I can probably think of lots more questions - does anyone have any answers?

Shoot. This is fun. Besides, it drives Bill D wild when I say all this stuff. ;-) I hope I got the darn italics codes right this time.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 03:16 PM

In an alternate theory of metaphysics the concept of "soul" can be replaced by that of "blanc mange."

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 03:21 PM

Meaning? "White -----"?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 03:25 PM

I look at every life as a role taken on in a drama...like a stage play. Some roles are more exciting than others. The difference is, though, you have free will to alter the script as you go along, and so does everyone else. That makes it way better than a stage play, but also way more difficult in some respects.

And you can't quit partway through...except by committing suicide, I suppose.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 03:52 PM

'Wild' Bill D., frantically studying relevant scholarly works in order to answer Little Hawk's abstruse metaphysical peregrinations

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 03:55 PM

(The italics code was fine; the content was as usual ;>)......)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 04:04 PM

If your metaphysics requires lots of non-demonstrable assumptions.

That's a big "IF," Bill. Some of us came to metaphysics with no assumptions...just a desire to learn more about what seemed to be unanswerable questions. Perhaps, because of your background, you are making "assumptions" about metaphysics and thoose of us who believe in them?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 04:09 PM

I never realised being dead would be so complicated.

I have a feeling I got it right first time. My place will be with the earwigs, slugs, or maybe a mollusc. i wouldn't mind being one of those shellfish that gets stuck to the bottom of the pier. A limpet.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 04:22 PM

'Critique of Pure Balderdash' lol Did you write it, Bill?

Just you wait, ma man.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 04:31 PM

Nope...that's not how I work, kat...I use 'criteria' for identifying assumptions.....and any criteria I use must themselves be in order and rendered as close to 'linguistically neutral' as I can make them first.

It is entirely possible that you..(and others) came to metaphysics without assumptions and inadvertently missed noticing that you were 'implictly' using unstated assumptions in various places....please understand that what I am saying is that certain claims and conclusions within metaphysics, when stated in certain ways, logically require and imply certain assumptions. It is not a statement about honesty or integrity, but about the very fabric of argument form.

You see what a tangled web this is to debate? It's like trying to make your friends ...or your kids ...understand that criticizing some of their behavior has nothing to do with judging their 'worth' or their motives.

In some of these debates, people pop in briefly, tell you "That's a crock of sh**!", make a few other disparaging remarks, and leave. They get MUCH less respect from me, even though we 'agree' on some things, than those I am debating.

I make an 'assumption'....that you, Amos, Little Hawk...etc, are honest, concerned folks who have had 'experiences' that you are trying to sort out and come to terms with. Why would I wear my poor, dyslexic fingers to the VERY bone..*grin*, debating with idiots who won't even pretend to listen to my side of it? I discuss & debate with folks I respect!...and when I get an inkling that they no longer respect ME, I quit.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 04:38 PM

nawww, Ebbie...the name on the "Critique" is A.P. Riory, a famous and important part of the flow of philosophic literature for the last couple of hundred years..

(published by "The Neo-Diogenic Society of Kansas"....whose motto is "we are dedicated to truth, understanding, and, whenever it's not too much trouble, the search for an Honest Man")

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:26 PM

That looks like a pretty cool book, Bill. ;-) Nice picture.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 06:45 PM

I discuss & debate with folks I respect! And, I, for one, am glad that you do, Bill! You are such a gentle-man about it and the respect is mutual. (I've noticed the absence of a certain member who always jumps in to tell us how silly we are to believe any of this. It is a welcome change not to have that disrupt a very interesting debate.)

Now, dare I say play the "it's a secret" card and tell you there are scientific experiments which are used in the monographs to "prove" some of what I know of metaphysics?**bg**

kat

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:10 PM

Is A.P. Riory a pseudonym? Seems just a little too apt.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:11 PM

The best place to find an honest man is in the mirror.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:01 PM

Whoa! Stop! Pull the chute! (OK, so I'm a little slow to react.)

But! back at 2:05 pm, Little Hawk said, and I quote...

I was one of the first kids in my age group, for instance, to decide that the "Santa Claus" story simply had to be mythological, because it didn't jibe at all well with a whole lot of known facts! I was a very logical and observant kid, and have remained so, I can assure you.

That is really twisted LH. And absolute proof that you were twisted from a very young age. Santa Claus a myth! Santa Claus is REAL!!!!

Rapaire, go get the swords please. There is an issue here worth fighting over ;o)

Janie

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:06 PM

I don't believe in that danged Easter Bunny either, Janie! As for the Tooth Fairy, it's a bunch of baloney!

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:08 PM

I'm gonna tell my president, George W. Shrub. Better watch out Canada. We're comin' in. The American Way is bein' threatened by some damn bird up there in Ontario.

Janie

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:14 PM

You are so right. ;-) We're ready, by gum! We have mobilized our fighting forces with squirt guns (loaded with deadly LEMON JUICE to get in your eyes!), millions of hard-frozen snowballs (kept stockpiled in government freezers since last winter), rampant moose and beaver by the thousands, and MAPLE SYRUP BOMBS!!!!

Come on...we dare ya!

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:16 PM

Oohhhh Noooo! Not the rampant moose. George, get Rummie on the phone. We got a problem.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 10:28 PM

secret scientific experiments! Oh, wow! I can hardly wait!

Have they put electrodes on Little Hawk's head and found emanations in 5 dimensions? Has Amos been caught on video, out of his body? Has Hubble seen images of the horoscope on Mars? Did that beta model aura monitor finally prove that PhotoShop does access our brains directly?

Don't keep me in suspense!


(ummmm...Ebbie...A.P Riory is sort of a pseudonym. He was a founding memeber of the N.D.S.K mentioned above...His identity was created on a foot-treadle platen press in Wichita about 1969. I sold the press for $350 to finance my move to the DC area.)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 01:43 AM

I was thinking of a priory, you know.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 01:52 AM

There's all kinds of interesting experimentation being done in paranormal stuff by the scientific community, Bill. You're just not reading the right books. Hell, even the military people in both the USA and Russia have been working with stuff that would freak you right out for the last few decades...most of which they do not tend to talk to people about very much.

I think you're clinging to an out-of-date view of things, that's what. You're sort of a traditionalist in that sense.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 02:33 AM

The more I think about it, the more the limpet seems a good option.

Nobody is in a rush to eat you. I've always liked the seaside. Sometimes the tide goes out and you get to see the sun.

A pretty straightforward gig. All you have to do is hold on to the pier. I could do that job.

Of course occasionally a guy comes along with a hammer and knocks you off. However, you could be a limpet on a neglected pier that nobody bothers with upkeep of.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 02:40 AM

Limpets flock to podunk pier in Booniesville...the pier was left to rot ages ago...it's Heaven to them! It has now become a protected wildlife refuge. No hammers allowed!)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: John O'L
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 05:46 AM

Well I think this has just about been done to death (it will no doubt return sooner or later as a more spiritually evolved thread), and weelittledrummer gets my nod as having made the most profound comment. Can't remember how it went now...

Are yes, found it:
...its not us thats setting this agenda. if there is an agenda.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 06:06 AM

I realise I'm not very profound. some of us are earthbound souls, without a spiritual aspect.

sometimes I think it must be nice to be like James Joyce - metampsyhcosis - and all that, a sea change into something rich and strange.

the older you get, the more you leasrn to accept that different peoples minds and bodies are different.

some people can do maths, some can play the guitar, some people can pray and sense another order of reality, some people can see ghosts, some men are fabulous lovers, .....


the complete man doesn't exist. do the best you can with what you've got.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 07:35 AM

I think we all have a spiritual side, perhaps some repress it. I only found mine about three years ago. Before that I would have backed up Clinton!

For me it was a slow kind of knowing, not a belief.

Pat

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 12:09 PM

Ebbie: yep, I know (a priori)...I was just prolonging the joke . The other side of that dust jacket is "The History of Greece" by J.B Bury...but it sure did get attention lying on my desk in the Philosophy dept.!


Little Hawk, there has been "... interesting experimentation being done in paranormal stuff by the scientific community," for many years....I know that! You don't think I read about it?

    Trouble is, they keep getting 'mixed results'....just enough statistical anomalies to keep them puzzling. The experiments that are designed by those who wish too hard for success seem to give better results than those designed by those with exceptionally rigid standards and careful double-blind tests.

    I'm sure someone like Wolfgang is more up on the details of recent successes and failures than a casual observer like me, but I scan for worthwhile news. I'd LOVE to find that certain esoteric abilities are possible.....if just ONE person could be found who can control and repeat paranormal abilities with indisputable accuracy, I'd be tickled pink!
But the 'news' is like the 100MPG carburetor ..."those who have a vested interest in this secret are hiding the truth from us!!"

   We have such logically conflicting 'explanations' that it's hard to even express....there are people who 'speak to departed ancestors' while at the same time, these ancestors are claimed by others to be 'coming back' and starting a new life. Definitions change, goal posts are moved, disclaimers are issued and standards are lowered. The need to believe in some form of "hereafter" or "reincarnation" is so strong for many that ANY apocryphal evidence or explanation will do.......and I can truly see why. It is comforting and calming and gives hope to those who suffer losses and/or don't feel fulfilled in THIS life....etc.

    ......*sigh*....I don't know what to say, except that if I 'go' before you do, and find myself 'aware' in some 'realm', I'll be sure to swoop down and buy you a virtual beer and write mea culpa in glowing letters on your bathroom mirror....and you know I'm an honorable man, if a stubborn one.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 12:23 PM

"....and you know I'm an honorable man, if a stubborn one. "

Great sentence!

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 12:32 PM

*smile*

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 12:50 PM

weelittledrummer...your last posting was great! My apologies if my attempt at a little humour was mistaken for sarcasm. None intended, I assure you.

katbeenherebefore:-)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 01:08 PM

and I can truly see why. It is comforting and calming and gives hope to those who suffer losses and/or don't feel fulfilled in THIS life....etc.

That's likely true for some people, Bill, but a lot of folks I know who believe in rebirth are neither comforted or calmed by the idea. Many (if not most) are just DYING -- quite literally -- to get off this earthly roller coaster, so to speak. To be free of the cycle of death and rebirth in this "vale of tears" and "graduate" to a life in the realm of spirit.

Most Buddhist teachings, for example, are directed to this end - not about how to celebrate or enjoy or enhance physical life, but how to get beyond, transcend, overcome it.

But whether or not we are restricted to one lifetime or free to have as many as we like, I don't think physicality is any sort of shackle to be wrenched off and tossed aside. Physical life is a privilege, a pleasure, an adventure, a learning experience without parallel. Those who think otherwise are missing the point of the whole exercise imo.   

Besides, according to most religious/spiritual traditions aren't we all supposed to have originated in the 'realms of spirit'? And if that's the case, what's the big deal about getting back there as fast as possible? We must have had plently of good reasons to choose to leave such a (purportedly) perfect existence. There must be many, many pleasures and benefits and experiences available 'here' that are not available 'there'.

Why else would we come? Would you opt to leave a beautiful comfortable home in say, Hawaii, in favour of struggling through some miserably difficult existence at the North Pole or in the middle of the Gobe Desert?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 01:17 PM

Weelittledrummer, your last post was great, in its entirety.

"the older you get, the more you leasrn to accept that different peoples minds and bodies are different.

some people can do maths, some can play the guitar, some people can pray and sense another order of reality, some people can see ghosts, some men are fabulous lovers, .....


the complete man doesn't exist. do the best you can with what you've got."

Well said! I couldn't agree more.

Bill, pretty well said on your part too. I think people's natural interest areas pretty much determine what they put time into reading...and how they interpret what they read. I've got a few books that might interest you, but then again, they might not. I'm not sure.

Like Weelittledrummer I have long since come to the conclusion that people are all different, and that's perfectly okay. I don't mind that the religious are religious, I don't mind that the mystical are mystical, I don't mind that the pragmatic are pragmatic....I just mind it when any of them won't leave other people alone to be as they wish to be. In other words, my credo is "live and let live". I expect you would be in sympathy with that.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 01:44 PM

*daylia*...or course you are correct...there are many ways different people approach being 'here' and the idea of whether is a good place to be. I didn't list nearly all of the possibilities. I studied comparative religion at one time, and the "wheel of Samsara" was a fascinating topic. Belief in re-birth, while at the same time hoping to escape the cycle, is a major part of some belief systems.

Little Hawk... I used to buy and collect books about as many viewpoints as I could afford....I especially was curious about the more 'extreme' claims that I tended to disagree with...wondering how they expressed and defended unusual positions.
Partially because of spending 8-9 years dealing with cataracts and 'old' eyes, I seldom read long, detailed tomes any more...(I can focus on a computer screen easier than on a printed page)...but I am always interested in new ideas if I can read a short summary before attempting the longer format.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 01:48 PM

We come to believe what we believe through personal experience. When we believe the experience, it becomes a very personal knowlege. Attempts to share this do not become another's experience, knowlege or belief. Its only what you know.

When my daughter was very young, she astounded me by telling me that when she was born, she knew everything and that each day she forgot more and more.

That fits with my belief that our souls are individual and when our bodies die, we join other souls in an all-knowing, spiritual consciousness until its time to be re-born. When we are a part of the spiritual consciousness, we appear as stars in the sky.

I also believe that our ancestors guide us. This may be a part of our genetic make-up or it may be that we can access our guides through 'prayer'. It may also be that they are able to access us to guide us or intervene in a crisis.

I think we all get glimpses of our past lives and that it is our sense of wonder that stimulates our minds. Philosophers have been probing these questions for a very long time. Some have even tried to bottle and sell it as religion.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 02:09 PM

....ain't even gonna touch that one.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 09:47 AM

Me neither. It's beautiful, and I wouldn't dream of smudging it.

I'm glad you agree that belief in rebirth is a philosophy; an intriguing, very ancient and universal one - not necessarily just a whim to be used as a personal cop-out or a crutch. Although some do use it that way, just as others use Christian philosophy to convince themselves that even though they have only one 'shot at the goal' so to speak, no matter what they may say think or do Jesus has already saved them by paying off all their debts, in advance.

(And everybody else's too. What a Nice Guy!   ;-)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 10:22 AM

D:

We come to believe what we believe through personal experience. When we believe the experience, it becomes a very personal knowlege. Attempts to share this do not become another's experience, knowlege or belief. Its only what you know.


I think it is more probable that we come to experience what we experience from personal belief. When we experience the effects of belief, it becomes a proof of that personally created knowledge.

I hope you will forgive me for altering the intent of your writing. But I think the counter-example speaks as loudly as the original -- that experience is itself the product of belief, not just its birthplace. The belief "I exist", for example, has all kinds of powerful ramifications.

A

A

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 10:44 AM

Well, durn, Amos...I was carefully avoiding that point. I am surprised to hear you state it in a manner that I rather agree with. I suspect that we would make slightly different inferences from that beginning.

(I once posted quotes from Kant & Hume on the Dept. of Philosophy bulletin board.....almost identical, they referred to the basic premise that "all knowledge begins with experience".....under them, I put the disclaimer..."Well, so far, so good...")

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 12:30 PM

Kant makes sense to me.

"...all knowledge begins with experience".

I also think that faith (beliefs) can also be based on experience.

Are you saying that faith has no experiencial basis?

I was not indoctrinated and have arrived at my beliefs through life experience. Systems of belief do not have to be pre-packaged.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 01:53 PM

I agree, Amos. Experience, more often than not, is the product OF belief, because belief dominates how people interpret their experiences.

Now and then, of course, it happens the other way around too. ;-)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 12:38 PM

I've had enough this go round thanks.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 12:50 PM

them why didn't you let it die????? It was at 23 hrs... almost off the bottom!

I was gradually letting go of my compulsion to comment on the relationship of 'experience' to faith.........

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 12:56 PM

Ah ha! There you have it, Bill. Life after death!

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:14 PM

LOL, Ebbie! Yeah....I guess that proves it!...no, wait...it was a 'near-death' experience! I wonder if all its posts passed before its "Is".........

















I'll get my coat...

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:20 PM

What is is?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:26 PM

Is is "eyes" (I)s...some silly pun like that

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:32 PM

Here's how faith works...

2 men, a religious man and an atheist, are on a sinking ship in a violent storm. The religious man has faith in God, reason, and practicality. The atheist has faith in just reason and practicality, period. At the last minute they are saved! (...and who cares how?) The religious man finds his faith confirmed by this experience. So does the atheist. ;-) They go on disagreeing passionately about it for years afterward ("God sent that helicopter!" "No, he didn't, the Coast Guard sent it! There is no God!") until one of them finally dies. Does he find out who was right and who was wrong when he dies or does he just cease to exist? Tune in next millenium for the definitive answer to this vexing question.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 02:31 PM

Bill:

The problem with words is they often like precise definitions. I did not say "faith". I said "belief".

As far as I am concerned a "belief" at ANY level of one's cognitive architecture is a postulated memetic field structure, within which certain postulated perceptions obtain.

This can be anything from a high metaphysical proposition like "I exist" to the more normal run-of-the-mill beliefs like "I am male" or "I am confused" or "money is everything" or "c is a constant".

These cogntive constructions bring about filtered perception; those perceptions proceed to prove the concept, by providing appropriate experience.

This is a VERY short hand version -- there is a great deal to know about this aspect of cognitive science, which is badly shortchanged in the 'brain' field (for reasons which fromr this perspective seem horribly obvious -- the brain field admits no "sourcehood" or "creative" aspect to existence.)

A

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and come back ....?
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 08:08 PM

Unless I am blocking what I read over here,
nobody posted anything horribly combative in this particular thread,
which is . . . an accomplishment, negative in a sense, but still an accomplishment.   

And started by Skarpi, bless his cotton socks.

I wasn't around when this thread began, or went to sleep.
Maybe I will catch flack for posting to it.

Here's one way of easing into the question -
with another question.
Who was it from whom I steal this quote:

"a plant does not have to believe in photosynthesis
in order to turn green"?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:33 AM

You know why most plants are green?

the best answer is not chlorophyll,

its deeper than that.

and here is your flack

The sun radiates the least energy in the green spectrum so reflecting green light allows absorption of the more energetic colors. Black would be too hot.

...

reincarnation is an overcoat for a cold ego.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 10:31 AM

I just re-read this entire thread..(over 2 days). I often do that before looking to see who refreshed it and why.

   I am often amazed at how we (the generalized 'we', as well as the 'members of Mudcat we') can do a decent job of expressing some of the most compelling concepts & opinions that concern us strange human folk.

I am also bewildered sometimes at how easily some can miss the import of what others are trying to say, and reply with pithy remarks that don't really address the point.

   There have been a number of threads in which these topics have appeared, but I think this is probably MY most exacting attempt to 'get at' the underlying basis of most confusions. I won't re-hash it all today, as I'm not sure I could improve on what I said 11 years ago.

"...nobody posted anything horribly combative in this particular thread.." No, probable because the main contributors....Me, Amos, Janie, Little Hawk, Katlaughing... and maybe Ebbie & Dave the Gnome.... have shared many other debates in the past, and several of us (them?) have met RT and made music together & shared small talk on a myriad of topics.

I **still** do not feel that my main technical points about philosophy and logic got across for some who were just too psychologically committed to a particular 'belief system'... or beliefs ABOUT belief systems.
(As of today, I can ask folks to note how impossible is is to explain the flaws in Donald Trump to his most fervent base followers. They believe...or just accept... principles that many of us find abhorrent, and there is NO use telling them their basic premises are wrong.)

keberoxu: I really am not sure exactly how your botanical 'truism' fits as a metaphor for the human condition.

Donuel: I 'almost' see the underlying idea in your "overcoat for a cold ego." remark, but I'd have to see if it is similar to well-known quotes about religion being a crutch......

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 11:46 AM

The Cranes
-Yuri Gulyaev

(The original is in Russian)


Sometimes it seems to me that the soldiers,
Which haven't returned from blood's fields,
Haven't lain in our land,
But have turned into white cranes.

From those distant times
They fly and we hear their voices.
Is it because so often and so sadly
We are falling silent and looking into heaven?

The tired crane flock flies, flies through the sky,
Flies in the mist at the end of the day.
And it is a small gap in this order -
Perhaps this place is for me.

The day will come, and in such crane flock
I'll swim in the same blue-gray haze.
Calling out like a bird from the heavens
All of you who are left on earth.

Sometimes it seems to me that the soldiers,
Which haven't returned from blood's fields,
Haven't lain in our land,
But have turned into white cranes.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 12:05 PM

robomatic, that is a glorious contribution, thank you.

Skarpi's initial post to this thread,
while its English could be smoother,
is so sincere and courageous.
What a coward I am next to him.
He is so brave to disclose his questioning and his quest,
his doubts and wonderings.
I'm scared to do even that much.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:21 PM

I think the thread stayed on track and civil because the contributors made it so. There was a distinct absence of the bigotry and invective we see on other threads. I have drawn my own conclusions as to why but would leave it to others to make up their own minds.

DtG

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:10 PM

Yes Bill, The deeper idea is that reincarnation soothes the ego by making something up that guards the self constructed concept of self.
We heard Einstein say "Time is only a persistent illusion". Well it sure feels real 'don't it?'
That's how I view the ego. Just like your face, it is not even half of what and who you are. But we all to easily get tricked into believing "of course that's me, I can hear my own thoughts and can taste my food etc..

When Joe felt attacked this what I offered to try and get him to ally his ego's fears;

Ego boundaries make enemies that do not exist Joe. I will now be speaking in psych terms. I don't expect you to get it right away except to say, no one is attacking you, except yourself.

This is all naturally confounding until you have the ah ha moment.

In religion the ego manifests as the Devil. And of course no one realizes how smart the ego is because it created the devil so you could blame someone else. The ego is the worst confidence trickster we could ever imagine because you don't see it. It's con is "I am you. The ego hides in the last place you would ever look, within itself. It disguises its thoughts as your thoughts it disguises its feelings as your feelings. You think its you.
People who need to protect their own egos knows no bounds, they lie, deny, cheat, steal, kill, do whatever it takes to maintain ego boundaries. People have no clue they are in a kind of prison, they don't know they have an ego, They don't know the distinction.
At first it is hard for the mind to accept there is something beyond itself, there is something of greater value, that there is something greater than itself. There is no such thing as an external enemy, no matter what that voice in your head is telling you, all projection of an enemy is a projection of the ego as an enemy. Your greatest enemy is your own ego, your own ignorance, your own casting of your own enemies. These come from a variety of religious teachings and psychology, not just one dogma or a religion that collects and trains egos.

Finding the ah ha moment is most challenging for a straight line (linear} person to achieve.
Then you will know We are not bigots, we are not the enemy.

So Bill, reincarnation is an overcoat for a chilly ego.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:19 PM

People used to ask me to assist in giving them a past lives regression
I still don't accept the reality of past lives however I never had the experience of interviewing/hypnotizing a child who claims such abilities and memories.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:47 PM

Don... the ego, perhaps?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 08:03 PM

I've made this point before in other threads. I understand why people believe in afterlifes and reincarnation but I think they are being irrational, for the following reason. Be patient...

If you exist at all on this planet, you are a winner thousands of times beyond any millionaire lottery winner. Millions of times even. Your father in his lifetime produced hundreds of billions of sperms. Your mother produced tens of thousands of eggs. Your parents were only there because their fathers and mothers also produced hundreds of billions of sperms and tens of thousands of eggs, and so on, going back in time as long as you like (the further you go back, the more astronomical the numbers become).

You are here as a a result of one sperm fertilising one egg. Just think: any one of hundreds of millions of other sperms could have got to that egg first. But the one that got there was you. Likewise, that amazing sperm just happened upon one out of tens of thousands of possible eggs. You are you because of the fortuitous meeting of one out of billions of sperms with one out of thousands of eggs. Lucky you! There were hundreds of trillions of possible combinations, but here you are, you!

Now my point is that, to an awful lot of people, that isn't enough. Not only are you here and doing rather well thank you very much, you want even more. You can't stand the thought that, one day, you'll either be a pile of ash or you'll be underground being consumed by bacteria, fungi and Annelida. You want an afterlife or you want to be back in another guise (preferably not as a slug or mosquito). But you're forgetting those hundreds of trillions of potential combinations that never quite made it. If only the sperm second in the race to that egg had done a little turn, you wouldn't be here being you at all   There'd be no you. There'd be somebody completely different.

So I think that we should be deliriously happy with our earthly span and stop looking for even more. If I ever get to heaven I want to see all those nearly-people up there having even more fun than me. I hope there's room. They deserve that because they missed out on existence. We should all be more than happy with our lot and give way when the hour cometh. Amen!

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 08:47 PM

Nope, That looks like a powerful environmental statement.
'There is no away'
-----------------

Ego destruction is not a benefit to everyone. A well balanced person tempers and consciously uses ego to its best abilities quite naturally. Perhaps we call that charisma. The charisma of Obama is controlled but organic.

Shall we say the Trump personae is morbidly ego overweight and core poor. To me his charisma is totally synthetic and toxic.
Hitlers and Trumps are the injured psychologique not the reincarnated fortunate.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:08 AM

Like Bill, I read this thread all the way through and enjoyed it. A few bittersweet thoughts for the losses we have suffered in the interim. (You suppose they are aware of this thread, Bill?:)

Steve Shaw: "If you exist at all on this planet, you are a winner thousands of times beyond any millionaire lottery winner."

I have a different view of that, Steve. Even though I don't quite understand my own hypothesis, here it is: If I had not been born, I would still be I, I would just be in a different body.

Somehow, it makes sense to me.