BS: School Shooting In Montreal

Subject: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: bobad
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 04:13 PM

There has been another shooting incident at a college in Montreal (Dawson College). The story is still unfolding but it appears that there were two shooters - one described as wearing a long black coat with boots and the other in combat type clothing.

As of now it seems that there were 10 victims with varying degrees of injury; 6 critical, 4 serious and 2 non life threatening, the shooters among them. I just heard that one of the shooters is dead but it is not known if it was by cop or self.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 04:15 PM

According to the Associated Press, there was one shooter and he shot himself.

I'm watching to see how this unfolds.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 04:44 PM

According to Reuters, four were killed, including one gunman who killed himself. That is unconfirmed, though.

When world leaders use violence to supposedly reach peace, how can we expect regular folks to learn violence isn't a very good answer to any problem? This is relaly, really sad.

My thoughts and sympathy to all involved.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 04:47 PM

The news doesn't know what the hell is going on at this point.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: gnu
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 04:56 PM

Neither do the legislators, but you can be guaranteed that all gun owners in Canada will pay the price yet again for these nutjobs. Well over $2B in the past twenty years. And reems of legislation which have increased violent crimes like home invasions manyfold. All because the real nutjobs don't even have guns.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 04:57 PM

Excerpt from the CBC News:

A gunman who opened fire in a downtown Montreal college Wednesday afternoon is dead "after police intervention," police confirmed at a news conference.

Earlier reports had said as many as three shooters walked into Dawson College at 12:41 p.m. ET and began firing at students. Sources told local media outlets that two gunmen were dead.

"I cannot confirm there is another suspect at this time," a police spokesman told reporters at about 4:30 p.m. ET.

At least 11 people were injured in the shooting rampage that terrorized students and staff at the college, a CEGEP serving about 10,000 students.

In a late-afternoon news conference, Montreal General Hospital officials said 11 people had been admitted, eight of them in critical condition. It's not known if injured people were also sent to other hospitals.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: bobad
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 05:01 PM

I just heard the police spokesman announce that the suspect was shot by the police and that there were 20 wounded - 13 were brought to hospital by ambulance the remainder made it in on their own. Of the 11, 3 are critical.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: bobad
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 05:09 PM

If anyone is interested in listening to live reporting you can hear it here, click on 88.5 | CBC Radio One Montreal.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 05:17 PM

Knowing nothing about the school, my first question on hearing the news was about the college (and agreeing with guest that the 'news' and 'situation rooms' don't have a clue).

Dawson is a relatively new institution (1969) and is the first English language school in Quebec's "Cegep."
The college offers some 25 pre-university programs covering many fields. It is somewhat similar to the 'community colleges' in other parts of Canada and the United States. It serves an important role in preparing students to make their choices for advanced education and career choices. Some 10,000 students (Mortreal is a large metropolitan center, mostly French-speaking but with a large immigrant population who must learn French if they are to live in Quebec.

I just renewed my 'gun' license, required (but only about 60% observed) here in Canada. It is a useless exercise, since the drug dealers and gangs have no problems in obtaining the latest in armament. Gangs here in Calgary are well-armed (members mostly SE Asian and Caribbean).

My offensive weapon is a rifle that belonged to a pioneer great-grandfather. It is kept clean, but if loaded with modern shells, it would probably explode.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 05:20 PM

'Mortreal' was not intentional fractured French. Applicable to the situation, though.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: bobad
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 05:23 PM

Quite the Freudian slip Q, I'll translate for those unfamiliar with the language Mortreal=Mort real=real death.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 05:41 PM

College as in the French for school, right? Not as in the American for university-without-graduate-school?

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: bobad
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 06:28 PM

Mrrzy

A CEGEP is a public educational institution in Quebec, Canada on the post-secondary level. CEGEP is an English acronym for the French Collège d'enseignement général et professionnel, meaning "College of General and Vocational Education."

While CEGEP refers technically to only public colleges, in common usage the term is sometimes applied also to private colleges offering some of the same programs.

Students in Quebec who follow a general studies program complete six years of primary school and five years of secondary school (one less than in other Canadian provinces, in total) before attending college. Colleges, including CEGEPs, then prepare students for university or to enter a technical profession.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST,Willie-O no cookie
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 07:33 PM

CEGEP = junior college. Only in Quebec.

I have long been morbidly fascinated by the incredible inaccuracy of early media reports of fast-unfolding, unforeseen events like this one. I've been hearing this one all afternoon. Chilling eyewitness interviews--I really think people shouldn't have a microphone stuck in their face while they're traumatized. At the same time I have heard stories of calm heroism. A girl who said she wasn't even born at the time of the December 1989 Montreal massacre described her terrifying experience with an assurance beyond her years--I think SHE should become a news reporter.

No one known to be dead except the shooter. Lets hope it stays that way.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 08:56 PM

In the minds of some, the word 'college' has been narrowed to mean an institution offering four years of post-secondary education. There are many Junior colleges and institutes offering two years of advanced education leading to a diploma or to entrance in colleges or universities offering Batchelors or higher degrees. Few four-year institutions have retained the name 'college', opting instead for 'university'.

Dawson College offers diplomas in a wide variety of subjects, including accounting, electronics, radiation oncology, computer science, etc. etc. Other programs are designed to lead to advanced entrance in universities.
The institution also offers continuing education opportunities and pre-University courses designed to upgrade students to university entrance level. There are similar institutions in the United States and Canada outside of Quebec.

In many Latin American countries, a college is a preparatory school (cf. high school).
In England, Balliol and other Colleges at Oxford provide living quarters and instruction but do not grant degrees.
Originally, a college was a gathering of clergy.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 10:05 PM

10 pm CBC news announced one young woman has died of her injuries. My neices and nephews are all in the age range of these students - senior high and junior college. I am horrified by the images of those frightened and shocked young people.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 10:07 PM

Any word about motive???

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 10:27 PM

No. An interview on CBC with one of those handsomely uniformed Quebec Surete (sp?) types said they knew his name (not announced), that he was 25, born in Quebec, living in Montreal, had driven a car to the site, had an apartment which the police were searching.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 10:28 PM

Above post was from me.

(Wanders off muttering: must register soon...)

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: bobad
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 07:04 AM

Gunman in Montreal college shooting called himself 'angel of death'
Last Updated: Thursday, September 14, 2006 | 6:46 AM ET
CBC News

The gunman who went on a shooting spree at a Montreal college on Wednesday left an online journal with chilling comments and photos of himself brandishing a semi-automatic rifle.

Kimveer Gill, who was identified by several publications as the man who shot dead a young woman and wounded 19 more, left behind a web diary at the website vampirefreaks.com.

   Gill, 25, a resident of Laval, a community north of Montreal, arrived at the downtown school dressed entirely in black, wearing a trench coat and carrying an automatic gun when he opened fire.

In his profile on vampirefreaks.com, a website devoted to goth culture, Gill calls himself "Trench," saying: "You will come to know him as the Angel of Death."

"Work sucks… School sucks… Life sucks… What else can I say," he writes. "Metal and Goth kick ass. Life is like a video game, you gotta die sometime."

A photo gallery that accompanies the profile includes photos that show Gill brandishing a Barretta CX4 Storm semi-automatic rifle. In the last seven photos, he is wearing a black trench coat and holding the rifle. The caption below the last photo reads: "Ready for Action."

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: gnu
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 02:48 PM

The Beretta CX4 Storm has a barrel length of 420mm, 50mm under legal length. He must have bought it in the USA and forgot to declare it at the border. Surely, after spending $2B, such a weapon would not be availble in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Raptor
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 06:40 PM

Mabey if someone had smiled or said a kind word to Kimveer the poor bastard would not have had so much hate inside him.

Makes ya think eh?

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 06:56 PM

He must have bought it on the streets of Montreal and forgot to tell the RCMP.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: bobad
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 07:04 PM

I'd think he most likely found it through the internet.

I just heard that he shot himself, I guess the Montreal police have to spend more time at the shooting range - they did get one hit on his arm though.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 10:37 PM

Beretta is distributed in Canada by Stoeger (Canada). The PX4 semi-automatic was first offered in the United States in 2004. A pistol with a relatively short barrel, see photo: http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg149-e.htm
There are Beretta Storm carbines but they are not the PX4.

It can be bought online, but Canada Customs would pick it up since it is illegal in Canada with few exceptions (police, etc.). The best source would be your local word-of-mouth dealer (as suggested by Big Mick). If one really wants one, it can be had. Gun laws don't stop the trade, probably even less effective than the drug laws.

In looking up information of Beretta models, I ran across some really weird websites, with posts from people I would never like to see within firing distance (some Canadian). Gun laws don't control the insane.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: bobad
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 10:46 PM

Q

I wasn't suggesting that he bought in on line, my thinking is that word-of-mouth information is amplified by the internet and finding the type of people, as you described, is a hell of a lot easier.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 11:30 PM

Just saw the CBC evening news. The Beretta was a carbine, and registered.
My mistake about the PX4, I don't shoot so got model numbers mixed up.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 12:46 PM

It's a real shame we (human society) haven't learned to notice these folks and get them to help before they hurt themselves and others. Are we wearing blinders? How can we fix this? Who understands what someone like this goes through and how to redirect their thinking?    Tw

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 01:00 PM

Parents are the first line of defense, but nowadays they are too busy divorcing, or working all hours to keep kids in designer clothes and video games. Of course if you try and discipline children you get thrown in jail for abuse, so why bother, the cold logic of a judge and jury will take care of the poor unabused product later in life.

Family, second line of defense? Noooo, they are a thousand miles away, and only chat on the phone or internet, around birthdays and Christmass (sorry, all the other major religions and non religious holidays included)

Neighbours third line of defense? Noooo they are child molesters and pedophiles from whom all children must be kept locked in their homes and away from bad influences...

Church? (better not go there)

Schools (see all above) Most of the teachers don't care and just want to survive long enough for pensions or their next dope fix....

Police??? well yes, they can shoot the crazy bastards, but then the civil rights people will crucify the officer that does anything proactive...

Do I sound too cynical? Yup I am and don't hold much hope for a society that wants to ban guns cause its guns that cause crime.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:24 PM

I haven't been to Montreal for about 15 years. With the money in hand I don't doubt I could score an automatic machine pistol or Uzi or AK-47 within a few hours. If I wanted a gun or needed one for some reason, the last place I'd buy one is in a store. Too much paper work to do.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:59 PM

Even in the States, to purchase a gun legally you have quite a bit of paperwork. Not like when I was growing up, when you could go in, pay the money, and walk out with the gun.

In my opinion one of the best things we could do is stop making it look like violence is the answer for everything and guns are solutions instead of tools. Start with movies, TV, and video games....

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 04:08 PM

Chicago and Detroit were easier to purchase illegal firearms, but Montreal was pretty easy in the old days too! Hang around the right docks and bars in a port long enough, and you could buy anything from a revolver to a Uzi. (and someone who would use it for you if you were so inclined) The horses have left the barn mates, no point closing the doors. Banning guns won't stop nut jobs and the illegal trade. The new Canadian gun laws actually increased the value of stolen weapons and illegal firearms. Plus most criminals can now depend on all firearms being locked up and not in use when they smash down the doors and assault grandpa. Well, maybe!!! :)

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Raptor
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 04:12 PM

Gun's don't kill people... Oh wait a minute, YES THEY DO!!!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 06:06 PM

Out will come all the old rhetoric I suppose.

Rapto's tongue-in-cheek statement reminds me of Pat Paulsen's line: "Guns don't kill people. Bullets do. Let's give everone guns and take away the bullets."

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 09:24 PM

Dave - You missed a very important group.

Kids themselves.

Troubled kids are often very skilled at decieving adults.

It is their peers (fellow students) that are the most accurate judge of character. They are the ones who know when someone is not quite 'right'. We need to encourage our children to talk to someone they trust if they are aware that one of their peers express thoughts of violence, either to themselves or to others.

I'm pretty sure that this guy was 'under the radar'. If anything, he was probably depressed and suicidal.

Suicidal tendencies in youth are often hard to detect.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: C. Ham
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 10:22 AM

Dianavan refers to this killer as a "troubled kid."

He was not a kid. He was a 25-year-old adult who had no connection, in his entire life, to Dawson College.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 01:55 PM

He may have been a young man if you look only at his chronological age. He was, however, emotionally, still a kid. How does this happen? In the old days, we would have referred to this guy as a 'spoiled kid'.

You cannot spoil a child with love and attention but from the reports I have read, he was well taken care of and showered with everything money can buy. He didn't seem to have any personal pride or sense of responsibility. Where did he get his car? Doesn't seem like he earned it. No mention of a job. College? Maybe a month before he dropped out. Military? He was discharged after a very short time. Makes me wonder if he contributed to the household in any way. My guess is he never even took out the garbage.

I have no problem with children living at home if they are attending college or university or if they are contributing to household expenses but, like so many affluent families, this guy seemed to think he needed to contribute nothing to his family or to society.

There's a reason mother birds push their babies out of the nest.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 04:15 PM

Exactly my thoughts, Dianavan -- and those of my own mother. "I'll give you a place to live and feed you while you're in school, but when you leave you're on your own," she often said.

My brother tossed the second son out -- took him out, showed him a trailer, told him he was either going to buy it or he'd find the locks changed some night. Now the kid (yeah, right -- he's 28 now) has his own house, and you couldn't pay him enough to move back.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 04:41 PM

Rap - Children from affluent families often think that they are 'entitled'. They are showered with material possessions in place of love and attention. As a result, they often grow to believe they do not have to contribute anything. Society, by and large do not tolerate these people. They either succeed because of nepotism in the workplace or they fail because they cannot find their own way in society. Very few of these 'spoiled' kids grow up to be responsible adults.

Basically, they have never learned the rewards of earning their own way. Given the opportunity, most kids will choose to make a life based on their own efforts. Without that, their self esteem suffers and they become dependent on others. If the 'others' do not provide them with them with what they want, they become angry and hostile. They are welfare bums in fancy clothes but they are far more dangerous.

My question is this? How can parents condone the purchase of firearms (where did he get the money?) and accept 'hobby' as an answer. I can't understand the detatchment. These parents should have been asking alot of questions. I think he controlled his parents and hated himself for it.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: gnu
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 06:17 PM

Excellent discussion. Some very astute observations and points well made. I hope it continues as it's well worth discussing and bringing to light these important issues.

Unfortunately, I still have my own aganda. I believe the gun laws instituted in Canada over the past twenty years are just horrid. A similar individual killed two friends of mine last year. He cut them to pieces, with knives and swords, beheaded one. They were elderly and defenseless, because of the new gun laws.

Don't get me wrong... I am all for registration... I am all for screening... I am all for outlawing assault weapons... BUT... I am not in support of rendering people defenseless.

Okay... I'll get me hat and coat.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Raptor
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 06:22 PM

Gnu how did the gun laws make them defenseless?

A serious question without any disrespect intended.

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 06:25 PM

"including one gunman who killed himself"

Well, at least he did something right and good

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 07:53 PM

So here's the killer

http://modseven.de/trench/

I guess thats what happens when assimilation occurs too rapidly.

His parents probably thought he was just being a modern, Canadian guy.

Blame it on Jack Daniels.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: C. Ham
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 09:57 AM

I guess thats what happens when assimilation occurs too rapidly.

His parents probably thought he was just being a modern, Canadian guy.

That's right, blame immigration. You have made a truly repugnant, racist suggestion.

How long do you think "assimilation" should take. Kimveer Gill was born in Canada.

Kimveer Gill attended English-language schools in Quebec. That means his parents attended English-language schools in Quebec. Under Quebec law since the 1970s, the children of all new immigrants must attend French-language schools.

So the family has been in Canada for at least two generations.

A few years ago there was a similar school shooting in Taber, Alberta; not exactly a hotbed of immigrant culture.

BTW, for every Kimveer Gill, there are literally millions of immigrants, children of immigrants and grandchildren of immigrants who do not commit random acts of murder. I am, myself, the grandchild of immigrants who came to Canada with nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 10:18 AM

just heard that he shot himself, I guess the Montreal police have to spend more time at the shooting range

Why not follow the pro gun logic instead? Arm the kids...

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 01:14 PM

"Kimveer Gill attended English-language schools in Quebec. That means his parents attended English-language schools in Quebec. Under Quebec law since the 1970s, the children of all new immigrants must attend French-language schools.

So the family has been in Canada for at least two generations."

I didn't know that. Are you sure? Do you have a source?

btw - My remark was not racist. I am an immigrant. I do know that when English is not the first language at home, kids often slip under the 'cultural radar' of their parents. What parents may perceive as normal behaviour for a child adjusting to new cultural norms, is actually deviant and not 'normal' at all. It is often difficult to detect a deeper problem.

Name calling is a form of bullying and is especially repugnant when it's so off the mark.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 01:36 PM

I sure doesn't look off the mark. Do some research before you attack people. That includes immigrants, which he wasn't. Making a statement like that seems racist for sure. Excusing it with a remark like 'I didn't know that' doesn't change anything.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: C. Ham
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 01:51 PM

Do I have a source?

How about every major newspaper and television network. The news does not begin and end at Mudcat.

The rules of who may attend English-language schools in Quebec have been in place for almost 30 years. Since before Kimveer Gill was born, only children of parents who attended school in Canada in English, may attend English-language school in Quebec. Therefore, his family has been in Canada for at least two generations.

Furthermore, pointing out that your statement was blatantly racist does not make me a bully, it makes you a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 03:34 PM

Oh, boy - this is heating up! Hold on while I go get some popcorn -

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 04:41 PM

Dianavan, you're something. You make a racist statement based on ridiculous false assumptions and then demand "sources" from somesone who actually knows what they're talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 08:11 PM

The last name "Gill" is found all over the British Isles, means "dell" or "glen" or "marsh". The first name"Kimveer" looks Dutch to me, could be French, don't know. However, the combination "Kimveer Gill" may be Hindu or Sikh (Indian). Anyone knew for sure?

Claiming that someone made a racist remark requires the race be an issue in the discussion. I have not heard one word on the news that suggest this guy was "ethnic". Has anyone got a definitive answer?

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 08:59 PM

He is Canadian.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Beer
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 10:11 PM

What's the difference if his ethnic, native or what ever label anyone wants to put. He was a human being. White, black, yellow, green, orange. Who should care except raciest. I agree with guest. He was a Canadian. So what if he was a Muslim, Indian, Eskimo, Irish, Scotch, English, Dutch and so on. He was still a Canadian.
No, I guess we have to put a label. That's important. So we can continue to create hostilities among ourselves. What's the old saying? "Simplify, simplify" or did John Prine say it best, "Common Sense Don't Make Sense no More".
The point I guess I'm trying to make is that this thread should try and stay focused on the situation that took place and what ideas can be contributed to preventing such an atrocity in happening again. But not on his nationality.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 10:16 PM

So who played the race card?

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 10:22 PM

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 10:33 PM

Essentially correct, Beer, but someone here charged another Mudcatter with racism.

             "That's right, blame immigration. You have made a truly repugnant, racist suggestion."

If Gill was not an immigrant and not "ethnic", how can someone even consider making such a charge. It's too easy to throw hurtful words around. People who do should be called on the carpet for doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 12:25 AM

Are these the remarks you are calling racist?

"I do know that when English is not the first language at home, kids often slip under the 'cultural radar' of their parents. What parents may perceive as normal behaviour for a child adjusting to new cultural norms, is actually deviant and not 'normal' at all. It is often difficult to detect a deeper problem."

...or was it that I suggested that assismilation may have created a 'cultural clash'.

Neither of those statements are racist. I was referring to cultural differences that occur when a child has a 'new' cultural identity and the parents are still operating with the cultural norms of their country of origin. This enables a child to 'slip under the radar' especially if the parents are not fluent in English or remain immersed in their original culture.

It has nothing to do with skin colour.

It has more to do with culture and especially language. Many of my neighbors are from India and we get along fine but I do know that they don't know half the stuff their kids are into. This is not because they are not loving parents but because there is a cultural and linguistic divide that makes it easier for deviant activity by their children to go undetected. I also know that Kimveer Gill is an East Indian name, probably Sikh.

In a nutshell: Its hard enough to keep track of your kids but if you are not connected to the schools and community, (which is difficult if you are not fluent in English) its even more difficult.

This can hardly be called racist. If anything, its called trying to understand.

I think you know this (and if you don't you should) but what you are really trying to do is attack me personally. You are way off the mark. I don't even believe there are separate races. In fact, there is only one race. The human race.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: C. Ham
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 09:04 AM

Many of my neighbors are from India and we get along fine but I do know that they don't know half the stuff their kids are into. This is not because they are not loving parents but because there is a cultural and linguistic divide that makes it easier for deviant activity by their children to go undetected.

Most parents don't know half of what their kids are into whatever their background. You, of course, must be one of the rare exceptions.

There is also an inference in your statement that while the Indian parents in your neighborhood don't know half of what their kids are into, you do. Otherwise, how would you know that the parents are unaware? Therefore, may we assume that you, as a concerned citizen, are alerting these parents to their children's anti-social behaviour?

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST,Anand M.
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 09:31 AM

QUESTION FOR DIANAVAN:

My grandparents came here from India in 1954 (mother's side) and 1957 (father's side).

My mother was born here, my father arrived with his parents when he was not yet two years old.

I was born here in in 1977, so I am just four years older than Kimveer Gill was.

When you call Gill and his familiy immigrants, you are calling me and my family immigrants.

I am a Canadian, my parents are Canadian. My grandparents all became Canadians.

But you only see that our skin is brown, so to you, we are just immigrants.

You are a racist.

By the way, Dianavan, I have never killed anyone. I have never threatened anyone. I don't know anyone who has.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST,Anand M.
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 09:36 AM

My question then, Dianavan, is how many more generations will it take before you consider my family to be Canadian?

The same answer will apply to the sad Gill family.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:29 PM

Just checked back to see what was going on and saw Raptor's question, "Gnu how did the gun laws make them defenseless?"

Very briefly :

Back in the '80s, in Canada, legisaltion was passed which required all guns to be "locked up" and, separately, all ammo to be "locked up". This was meant to prevent children accessing arms and ammo, was also meant to prevent adults from "ready access", thus helping to prevent crimes of passion.

On the other hand, this law allows crimes such as home invasions to be perpetrated much more easliy. The elderly and single females living alone are far too often victims of such crimes. Essentially, they are not only defenseless, they are victims of this law itself because criminals are emboldened by this law. Yes, that's right, that's more or less what I said...this law has increased crime.

BTW, before anyone calls me a bigot, read what I posted carefully... I did not say homo invasions.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 05:28 PM

The silence is deafening.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 12:44 AM

"A son's estrangement from his roots is something most immigrant parents accept, said Basir Hussein, executive director of the Alliance of South Asian Communities.

"Here they get involved in the local society, so their attitudes change. It's normal," Hussein said.

But some parents who expect full obedience from their kids can be heavyhanded in their discipline. This, said Hussein, can cause a child to rebel even more.

But there's no indication Gill's parents ruled the home with an iron fist.

While they were not fully involved in the community, everyone who spoke to CanWest News Service said they are moderate, kind people who integrated well into Canada.

It's this paradox that has the community shocked and flummoxed, Verma said.

Youth of South Asian origins have been showing some troublesome signs lately, Hussein said, which spurred the community to develop preventive social programs.

"They're like any other youth. There are some problems with school dropouts, with drugs and alcohol. We are working very hard to make them understand what kind of problems they'll create if they get into these activities."

(Montreal Gazette)

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 11:07 AM

I don't think ethnicity had anything to do with it.

On CNN I saw pictures that Gill had taken of himself holding a rifle and a knife. The most notable thing about him was his utter lack of presence - the emptiness of his eyes. Here, they said, is a nebbish. A toxic nebbish, certainly, but still a nebbish.

Apparently he spent much time on net sites glorifying his fellow toxic nebbishes, Eric Klebold and Dylan Harris, the Littleton, Colorado murderers. Finally he decided to become "somebody" by following in their footsteps.

Society needs to address the processes by which malicious strangers identify and manipulate weak people like Gill.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 08:45 PM

You're right. leenia, and I think that's what people are trying to figure out. Everyone seems to have their own take on how people in our society become so alienated and/or marginalized. There are several ways this can happen. We do know that in his high school yearbook, he was the only student with nothing under his picture to describe himself.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 10:58 PM

GUEST,Anand M.,if you are still reading this thread,

for what it's worth, dianavan and I differ on the matter of whether it is more than rhetoric to say that there is only one race-the human race. I believe that race is a social construct. However, that does not negate the fact {as I see it} that people regularly but not always use this social construct. And saying that race has no biological bases [or legal basis? anymore] does not negate the fact that individuals and groups are heavily impacted positively and negatively by society's definition of their race and society's views about their race.

In my opinion, "color blindness" [the act of denying that races and racism exist] is unrealistic and can be dangerous to your health & wellbeing.

I work for a time when a person's race will be just a descriptive characteristic without any positively or negative value.

Guest Anand, I encourage you to join Mudcat or at least keep posting as an identified guest. I encourage this because you are a person of color and [imo] there needs to be more people of color on Mudcat, and because you are appear to be a thinking, caring person who is Internet savvy enough to have found this International discussion forum. I invite you to add your voice to the mix.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 01:38 AM

Yes, Azizi, we do disagree about the what defines race but I wasn't discussing race. I was discussing the reality of immigrant families who may not speak English at home or may be experiencing culture clash. Two different things. To be called a racist for explaining that some children are caught between two cultures, is inaccurate, to say the least.

Its not true of all children, but I know how difficult it is for ESL parents to keep up with the rapidly changing values of their children, especially if there is a language barrier. In other words, while some of these mothers stay safely ensconced within their families, their children are playing some pretty dangerous games in a society that they know little about.

My guess is that Anand M. is a troll.

My answer to his question is this: That depends on the immigrant. If you want to apply for citizenship, it can take less than a generation. It takes a long time to learn the language and cultural values of a new country, however. That doesn't mean you're less of a Canadian. We are multi-cultural. Its just that the children are usually several steps ahead of their parents when adapting. This creates a generation gap. We all know what that is. For immigrant families, it is often magnified.

To express sympathy and understanding for his mother can hardly be called racist. Grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 08:00 AM

"To be called a racist for explaining that some children are caught between two cultures, is inaccurate, to say the least."
-dianavan

I agree, dianavan, that this statement is inaccurate. I also consider it to be unfair to label you a racist on the basis of that statement. However, I also believe that racism toward non-White immigrant families can impede the social integration of immigrant families in their new nation.

I can see how not speaking, reading, and understanding the language their children speak -the language of the majority culture-would add another layer to the difficult job of parenting.

That said, I would be interested in finding out if anyone has done any recent research on what percentage of first generation immigrant parents in Canada don't understand English {or French, if living in Quebec}. Somehow, I don't think it's the entire population of first generation immigrant parents.

Here's an excerpt from this March 2006 online article that I found:
"Immigration is transforming not only the face of Canada but also the very definition the country gives itself. Canada is a land of immigration and its largest city, Toronto, with almost half of its inhabitants having been born in another country, is now one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world. The city has the fastest demographic growth of all cities in North America. Between 1950 and 2005, Canada received more than nine million new immigrants, a number almost equivalent to the entire populations of Austria or Switzerland. The very diverse origins of Canadians and their integration into the English-speaking majority probably constitute the most powerful force leading to a new self-definition in Canada. Not being of British stock, new immigrants do not see themselves as English Canadians, but simply as Canadians."

Canada and Québec: An Update

I would be interested in learning more about the social/cultural integration experiences of first & second generation immigrants in the USA, The United Kingdom, Germany, and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: leeneia
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 08:37 AM

Thanks, dianavan.

The spirit of inquiry (how did this happen, and how can we prevent it happening again?) is a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST,Anand M.
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 09:15 AM

"Name calling is a form of bullying and is especially repugnant when it's so off the mark."

-Dianavan, September 17, 2006

"My guess is that Anand M. is a troll."

-Dianavan, September 20, 2006


Dianavan has painted herself as a bully.

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: GUEST,Anand M.
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 09:19 AM

I would also point out that Dianavan has gone on and on blaming immigration and Kimveer Gill's ethnicity for his murderous acts.

Then,when Leeneia says, "I don't think ethnicity had anything to do with it," Dianavan chimes in with, "You're right. leenia."

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 09:55 AM

With all the warning signs from this guy's web posts you would think someone would have done something?

But no.

It happens right here and nothing is done.

Its all a joke, right?
----------------------

Subject: RE: BS: How best to apologize
From: ClintonHammond - PM
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 07:37 AM


I feel lots and lots fo things.... like total contempt for a moron like yourself... I'd feed you to rats, except that I'd feel sorry for the rodents.....

Subject: RE: BS: School Shooting In Montreal
From: Raptor
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 10:39 AM

Clinton Hammond is harmless, ...unless you're a skunk!

Raptor