Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?

Subject: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: 8_Pints
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 09:38 PM

My recollection is that "Lob Scouse" is a Welsh Onion broth/soup: if so what is the connection between Liverpool (in England) and the slang term "Scouser" for a Liverpudlian?

Bob vG

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: Skivee
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 10:13 PM

From Lobscouse, a sailors meal of boiled meat, vegatables and hardtack common to the sailing trade of Liverpool. My description may make the actual meal sound more appealing than it frequently was.
The Liverpool economy was built on shipping for a couple of hundred years. They were a major scource of vessels and crews for the slave trade before Bitains decided that slavery was a bad thing.
It's a simple jump to transfer the name of meal to a mild jibe about the folks living there.
The same process as Jack Tars becoming Limeys...or is that too recursive?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: Skivee
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 10:15 PM

Britains, even

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 10:43 PM

Or even Britons.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: 8_Pints
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 11:39 PM

The question is how did a Welsh meal become associated with an English city (Liverpool).

There was a great tradition of exporting slate and copper from North Wales via sailing ships, but I still don't see the connection with Liverpool.

I certainly doubt any slaving link here.

Bob vG

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 12:29 AM

8 Pints: the point is it's not just "a Welsh meal". It's a common name for sailors food. Not even strictly a British term, actually, according to Wikipedia (for a start -- there are about 31,400 Google results for "lobscouse"):

Scouse was originally a sailor's dish of boiled meat, vegetables, and hardtack. The word is a shortened form of lobscouse, from the north German Labskaus, which is a similar seafarers' dish. The dish is also known in Norway, where its name is 'lapskaus'. It has given its name to the Liverpool dialect of English and to those who speak it, Scousers.

As a type of lamb stew, scouse is still a popular dish in Liverpool and is a staple of local pub and cafe menus.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 01:00 AM

I did not know that! Thanks for asking Bob.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 01:05 AM

Limeys got their names allegedly from the lime juices they were provided with on sea journeys, to prevent scurvy (lack of vitamin C causing spongy gums, loose teeth, fragile blood vessels and bruising.

One site I found says this: Imagine you are on a sailing ship in 1747. You left England only a couple of months ago and you felt fine. Now you are so tired you can barely walk. Your gums are swollen and so sore it hurts when you are eating. Your teeth are falling out. When you look at your legs you notice they are swollen and purple from bruising.

Lucky for you, a passenger on your ship is very interested in your condition. His name is Dr. James Lind. Dr. Lind wants to discover what is causing you so much pain that you can't work. After examining all the sailors on the ship he finds 11 more sailors that feel the same as you do. Dr. Lind divides you into six groups with two sailors in each group. On May 20, 1747 he is ready to begin the first clinical nutrition experiment.

How did he conduct his experiment? Dr. Lind hypothesized that something was missing from the diet of all the sailors who were sick. By giving each group different treatments he hoped to locate what was missing from the diet of you and your fellow sailor's. Here is a list of what Dr. James Lind gave each group:

group 1 drank one quart of cider a day
group 2 gargled with sulfuric acid
group 3 had two spoonfuls of vinegar, 3 times a day
group 4 drank 1/2-pint seawater a day
group 5 drank barley water
group 6 (you & another sailor) ate two oranges and 1 lemon a day
What happened?

Only you and the other lucky sailor who ate the oranges and lemon felt better. In fact, in only six days you felt great and were able to start working again. The other sailors in the experiment felt worse.

No supprise that the chap gargling with sulfuric acid didn't feel any better!

This is a Jack Tar... wheras this is a Jolly Jack Tar.

"Sailors were commonly known as tars or Jack-tars from the 17th century onward. Several sources suggest that this is a shortened form of tarpaulin. Tarpaulin, thought to be so named because it is canvas impregnated with tar to make it waterproof, was a very common item onboard ships.

Some believe the term arose because sailors in the 17th century would put tar on their trousers to make them waterproof. This derivation does not arise via tarpaulin "(Tarry Trousers being one song...)

"Finally, many sailors today say that the word arose because sailors put tar in their hair to keep it waterproof and out of their faces in the stiff winds at sea. Whether anyone took this drastic step we cannot say." Presumably in hotter climates this tar would melt and stick to their clothes making the problem worse not better.

"The word tar itself goes way back to Old English (the late 7th or early 8th century, at least) and is thought to be related to tree, among other words, coming from the Indo-European root *derw- "firm, solid, steadfast". The sense here is that trees are solid and that tar comes from (certain) trees."


So basically, it was the Brits who were first 'Limeys', but any nationality can be a 'Jack Tar'.

I know nothing about lobscouse stew except it's good for mending cracks in the pavement.

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 02:24 AM

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 02:26 AM

Oops!!! Hit the wrong button!

The question is how did a Welsh meal become associated with an English city (Liverpool).


The word is a shortened form of lobscouse, from the north German Labskaus, which is a similar seafarers' dish. The dish is also known in Norway, where its name is 'lapskaus'.

As a Liverpudlian, born and bred, I am familiar with the German and Norwegian connections but I have never heard of Scouse being described as Welsh.



DC (exiled Scouser)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: GUEST,Ruston Hornsby
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:14 AM

Liverpool isn't that far from Wales, remember, particularly when you are crossing the water. Scouse may have got into Wales and the Welsh culinary repertoire via Liverpool. Interesting though, growing up in an East Coast port with strong Scandinavian connections, we had nothing like it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:20 AM

When I were a lad (in Salford), lobscouse was Irish stew with chips in it. Wikipedia has a reference to the dish from Hamburg. and has a rather dubious etymology that claims it's English for "a dish for a rough customer", though no citation. Presumably "lubber".

Welsh speakers- isn't "caws" cheese? Perhaps an original Welsh dish was made with cheese, and had meat substitutd later- it's well known that the Welsh were considered risible for their liking for cheese instead of meat. Any suggestions for "lobs" (presumably with a ll and a p)?

As for how to get it transferred to Liverpool, well it's practically on the doorstep.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 04:20 AM

I'm with DesertDancer on this one; I don't think I've ever heard of a connection with caws/cheese.

North Walians refer to Liverpool as the capital of North Wales. Heck of a lot of 'em there, and I think that, if you were born in adjoining areas of Wales, you may have had your birth registered as 'Liverpool'.

And working as servants in the homes of the Liverpool Elite was a traditional career path for boys and girls who wanted to save towards setting up on their own 'back home' in later life. So all this toing and froing was bound to result in the movement of culinary tastes.

sian

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: 8_Pints
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 05:20 AM

I agree with Sian on the question of caws/chesse being a 'herring rouge'!

The other theories are quite plausible except for the point that 'lob scouse' appears to have no representation on the Scottish or the East Coast which I would expect if it were a Norwegian or Germanic term.

Bob

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: GUEST,Ruston Hornsby
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 05:33 AM

So....whose going to give us a good authentic recipie for Scouse, then?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 05:46 AM

Take one pregnant woman.

Keep her in Liverpool until she gives birth.

Voila: a Scouse(r)


If you want a recipe for Lobscouse, you're in very dangerous waters. Housewives, and their attendand tribes, have come to blows over what it should/should not be.

Go there, and you're a braver man than I. (OK: figuratively 'man', me being female and all.) You'll have similar problems trying for a definitive recipe for cawl in south and west Wales, or for Bara Brith or Welsh Cakes anywhere in the nation.

sian

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 05:48 AM

I thought Bara Brith was a Jewish community organisation.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 06:27 AM

These days the main dish associated with Scousers in popular folklore is something different.

Take the well-know football chant sung to Park the Korean striker:

Park, Park, wherever you may be
You eat dogs in your home country
But it could be worse
You could be Scouse
Eating rats in your council house

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: Betsy
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 07:32 AM

Writing from Oslo , I back Doug Chadwick who writes "The dish is also known in Norway, where its name is 'lapskaus'".It is served / eaten regularly in Norway especially in winter.
Very much the same origins as Irish stew which was a poor-mans dish,and not the one loaded with meat as one generally finds in todays so called Irish Pubs scattered throughout the world.

In the 80's I was invited to a Liverpool couple's apartment ( in Holland where they were working at the time) to eat Everton Scouse.
(For non-British people Everton is a district of Liverpool) .
I can only say it was the nearest I have ever come to eating Bulldogs spew - as in Vomit (not stew).

Cheers
Betsy,

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:00 AM

It's all very well, it has probably spread everywhere seamen went, perhaps even ropsakasu in Japan, but where is it from? Can anyone come up with a plausible etymology?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:38 AM

It's called "lobby" in Stoke-on-trent.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 09:09 AM

Back to the 'Jack Tar' bit

Aall of the above are somewhat correct! The old sailors DID 'tar' or 'pitch' their trousers and jackets for use in the wet AND they DID use pitch on their pigtails - The sailor's collar came into being to keep the pitch off of their clothing.

Sailors also have a 'silk' (a sort of scarf) which goes around the back of the neck, down the front of the suit and is held in place by the tapes at the front of the suit - This 'silk' was originally a rag to wipe faces, hands etc whilst working.

Although since aboot 1980 when they changed the uniform the 'silk' became part of the jacket - Not unattached -

A canny book te take yez through some of these traditions is "Just An Old Navy Custom" by A Cecil Hampshire

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 11:29 AM

Just took a look in the Big Welsh dictionary - which we call Bruce - and although it doesn't give an etymology, it does giver versions of lobsgows including lobsgows troednoeth (barefoot) and lobsgows dall (blind) for vegetarian versions.

sian

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 12:05 PM

The meal scouse was common in working class Liverpool in the past, and is a thick stew of lamb and vegetables, slow cooked in a pan to make cheap cuts of meat more palatable. For the very poor you could make do with 'blind scouse' which is a lamb stew with the lamb left out.The older origin of the word is probably from the old Norse word 'skaus' again for a type of stew. There are a lot of recipes for Lob Scouse and the term was picked up from sailors (German,Norwegian et al) The port of Liverpool adopted it and scousers were born.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: Greg B
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 12:36 PM

From my cousins' farm atop a hill in Wales, you can
see Liverpool on a clear day.

They said that on June 12, 1972 they just glimpsed it
for an hour.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: leeneia
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 06:25 PM

"Can anyone come up with a plausible etymology?"

I checked my unabridged dictionary, Paul, but no luck. It said that scouse was short for "lobscouse," or "lobscourse"* but it had no history for it.

It is intriguing that lobscouse is related to loblolly, and loblolly is, among other things, a thick gruel.

I suspect these terms are onomatopeic in origin - members of the lob, blob, glob class of sounds.
----------
Wait a minute! I've got it! Lobscourse was the original - thus we have the salad course, the fish course and the lobscourse. How do you want your (g)lobs cooked?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 03:06 PM

As a Scouser I have always assumed that it is due to the large North Welsh population in Liverpool.
As children we were told that the Liverpool accent derived from the wind coming through the Mersey Tunnel and and blowing up your nose - not a lot of people know that!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 04:11 PM

Liz the Squeak said, in part:

One site I found says this: Imagine you are on a sailing ship in 1747. You left England only a couple of months ago and you felt fine.

Not "a couple of months". Assuming a person has a fairly normal dietary status beforehand, it takes six months for the lack of vitamin C to result in scurvy.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: terrier
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 04:42 PM

My Mother told me that during WW2 in the Pool, scouse was made from stewed cabbage. I asked what else ? She said "more stewed cabbage...thats all we could get to eat". YUK!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Origin of 'Scouser'?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 03:11 AM

Dave - I was quoting... that's what they said, not me...

Interestingly enough, there were some land based cases of scurvy some years ago.... although they didn't call it that. They said it was the result of eating nothing but junk food for years and called it a side effect of obesity.

LTS