BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?

Subject: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 01:55 PM

I'm a religious person and a patriotic Ameircan Democrat, but I'm not really tied to the "under God" in our pledge of allegiance, or even the "In God We Trust" on our money. I have the feeling this may be a God created by Republicans, and may have little to do with my concept of God. As I see God, I think He'd probably like to keep Himself away from flags and currency. They seem to be the "mammon" in the phrase "You cannot serve both God and mammon.

Anyhow, my stepson is studying Government in homeschool, and I'm the teacher. Today, he asked why the courts can't just order "under God" dropped from the pledge of allegiance, instead of banning the pledge from schools if "under God" is found to be unconstitutional mixing of state and religion.

So, why not just drop "under God" instead of the entire pledge?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: jeffp
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 01:58 PM

Just take it back to the original form, which didn't have "under God" in it. That was added to distinguish us from the "Godless Commies."

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Scoville
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 02:06 PM

I think the problem is that the arguments for or against it aren't based on logic (which, as far as I can tell, would support dropping it since we theoretically have separation of church and state). It's an emotional and partisan thing.

I, personally, am all for dropping it since I consider it to be an imposition on those who don't believe in a Christian God. I've been told that I don't have to say the pledge, etc., but in practice refusing to say the pledge draws a lot of unwanted attention and negative reactions.

I don't say it for several reasons:

1) I think it's ridiculous to pledge to a flag. The republic for which it stands, maybe, but the flag?

2) I'm an atheist (which would be less of an issue if the "under God" part were dropped).

3) Even if I weren't an atheist, I'm a Quaker and we historically refrain from pledging allegiance to anything except God (yeah, yeah--that makes the atheism thing a problem, but I think the point is that there is a higher power than our fallible human government.)

4) Especially in light of the current state of affairs, I think the whole thing rings hollow.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 02:16 PM

God schmod.... I want my monkey-man!

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 02:52 PM

Jeffp says "just take it back to its original form" - without the "under God" clause. That's more-or-less what my stepson proposes. However, that's not what happened here. When the local federal court in Northern California issued its injunction (which applies only to the area of jurisdiction of the court), it prohibited the pledge altogether until a final decision could be made - instead of just removing the offending phrase.
Why?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 02:53 PM

"Even if I weren't an atheist, I'm a Quaker and we historically refrain from pledging allegiance to anything except God (yeah, yeah--that makes the atheism thing a problem, but I think the point is that there is a higher power than our fallible human government.)" Scoville


Good Gracious. The older I get, the less I understand. You are a Quaker? And you are an atheist?

Sometimes I just don't see the point of labels.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 02:58 PM

Labels let us know when something is expired and should be thrown out.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 02:59 PM

"there is a higher power than our fallible human government"

Is there? Prove it....

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Scoville
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 02:59 PM

It's not that unusual, really, although there's a lot of quite heated discussion about it within the RSoF. Ha ha; major can of worms. I was raised in in Quaker meeting and am very much culturally a Quaker even if I don't have the capacity to accept the divinity of Jesus Christ or the existence of God-in-the-Usual-Sense.

I'm probably an atheist before I'm a Quaker. It hasn't caused me any major problems yet and I would be very sorry to leave meeting if it became a big issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 03:06 PM

The lad asks a perfectly reasonable question with an obvious answer, Joe. But unfortunately, as I'm sure you know, reason has little to do with it.

I agree with Scoville. Pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth seems just a bit stupid, and as to whether I would pledge allegiance, especially unquestioning allegiance, to the republic for which the piece of cloth is a symbol depends on the behavior of that republic in relation to many things, particularly the ethics or lack thereof of its leaders. I have wider allegiances than that.

I do attend a church with some regularity (Central Lutheran, Seattle) for reasons of my own, but I think if people were to examine my concept of what God is or isn't (if at all!), they would quite probably consider me to be an atheist.

As to "under God," that was an add-on in the Fifties, and could be considered a violation of the First Amendment. If you want to hear a sound similar to that of the screeching of eleventy-fourteen million scalded cats, just suggest removing "under God" it from the pledge.

In situations that require reciting the pledge, I mumble a lot. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 03:37 PM

I think that the status quo is just dandy. Yes, the Pledge was changed in the 50's (I am old enough to remember), yes, it is, almost surely, unconstitutional (I say almost surely because, atheists were unable to have "In God, We Trust" removed from our money, when they brought it to court) and yes, for sure, any effort to drop the "Under God" phrase would cause an uncivil war. I love the solution that the California court has adopted. No pledge, no foul.
At some point, even those, like myself, who are not Christians, must accept that we live in a Christian influenced society. Christmas is a national holiday. The White House has a big tree. They also do Easer Egg rolls. We all sing Christmas songs and exchange Christmas presents. We all celebrate Thanksgiving and Mardi Gras. We take the fun part of Christianity and leave the prayin' to them. If I took the Pledge of Alliegence seriously. and, if I would feel uncomfortable or hipocritical saying "Under God", I would just not say the part that I wasn't willing to pledge to. You know, take what you like and leave the rest behind.

                   Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 03:43 PM

Compelled speech is meaningless babble.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: jeffp
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 03:43 PM

Joe, I suspect that the court is limited to deciding yea or nay on the issue presented before it. That issue being approval or disapproval of the Pledge in its current form. If the two sides went to mediation, the mediator could possibly propose the solution that your stepson and I favor and the two sides could settle the issue on that basis.

Of course, that would require everybody involved to be reasonable, which is an unreasonable expectation.

Jeff

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 03:44 PM

When the local federal court in Northern California issued its injunction (which applies only to the area of jurisdiction of the court), it prohibited the pledge altogether until a final decision could be made - instead of just removing the offending phrase.
Why?

Joe, if you are asking why this particular decision was made, what do your local gummint spokesfolks say when you ask them? What legal issues was the court asked to address, and what did their opinion say about how they chose what to impose? What did each side ask for, that might have led the court to this particular approach in the particular case they had at hand?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Scoville
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 03:50 PM

My consolation is that most Christian holidays have pagan roots. I'm not pagan, either, but it does feel like a bit of an outside joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 04:22 PM

"You have the right to remain silent. . . ."

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 04:35 PM

take it out of the Pledge...and take "In God We Trust" off of the money, too. Those who do 'trust in God' are allowed under the Constitution to continue trusting whether it is printed or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 04:44 PM

Here's the point....IF a bunch of Christians found themselves somehow in a state or group composed of 97% atheists or non-believers, they would find it tedious and frustrating to have anti-Christian slogans on the money and in public speeches and oaths. They should...and DO have the right to go on worshiping and believing as they choose, whether or not they are outvoted!....lets just keep it fair!

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 05:09 PM

Aaargh! I didn't think Joe started this as a referendum but as a search for WHY the court decided to ban the pledge in total instead of in part. Don't you people ever get tired of finding more openings to bash the things that bug you?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 05:11 PM

"Don't you people ever get tired of finding more openings to bash the things that bug you?"

By asking, isn't that exactly what you're doing?

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Scoville
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 05:17 PM

Who says we would put anti-Christian slogans on the money? Most of us would just as soon have nothing on the money part from "five cents" or a nice bas-relief of a bison. Being an atheist doesn't mean I'm anti-Christian, I just want them to leave their religion out of OUR government.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 05:29 PM

The problem Scoville, is that THEY can't handle not having their religion in every single aspect of their lives.....

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 05:38 PM

ok, I'll answer that Susan...the court ruled that way because as Don Firth suggests, they didn't want to hear 'leventy-fourteen million scalded cats squealing. This is not a joke, exactly...sometimes it IS easier to remove the whole issue for a bit rather than to 'decide' about a detail that makes some folks hair-trigger reflexes twitch!

Court justices also have reasonable fears for their safety....as a couple who made abortion rulings discovered.

I have no idea how they intend to make the decision, but I'd wager they end up letting it all stand as is.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 05:42 PM

First of all, the "Under God" was and is a testamony to the days of rampant McCarthyism, which in itself is sufficient reason to remove it. Second of all, it wrecks the meter of the pledge----sort of like
"I jumped to the saddle, and Joris, and he
I galloped, he galloped, we galloped, they galloped all three..."

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 05:46 PM

... sometimes it IS easier to remove the whole issue for a bit rather than to 'decide' about a detail that makes some folks hair-trigger reflexes twitch...

I agree! Maybe someday, Mudcat will even learn that obvious point.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Cruiser
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 05:47 PM

As an atheist, I let my own son decide what he wanted to do and I tried to explain all sides of any such issue. Your stepson could just personally not utter the word "under God" as I did when I had to pledge allegiance to the flag. I was in the military service (and would have died for the symbol of freedom the flag signifies), served as a federal law enforcement officer with the requisite pledges, and not once was I ever forced to swear on the Bible or pledge anything under God.

Fortunately for now, there are other ways in our society that you can affirm honor, honesty, and "truth" without using any "God" as your witness. I was able to make my own mind up in my early twenties when I changed from a baptized Southern Baptist Christian to a freethinker by discounting the religious dogma of an anthropomorphic God. However, there are many good, well-meaning religious humans that I would not begrudge the words they say if those utterances are not forced on me.

I would just as soon not see or hear the word God in any aspect of government. However, give your stepson all the facts to let him make up his own mind if the pledge is allowed. If the courts decide for him then he will be required to accept the decision as any good citizen should; until society and its legal representatives decide which course is appropriate for our Nation, as a whole, to take at whatever point we may be in this continually evolving democracy.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 06:01 PM

If you "pledge allegience" at all, no one is likely to notice if you leave out some parts...It's been quite awhile since I was in a situation where I had to think about it, but I just said it the way I learned it in 1945.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 06:27 PM

I'd just like to say that, contrary to normal practice, Clinton Hammond said something intelligent and rational above.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 06:33 PM

I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
    one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

October 11, 1892


   I pledge allegiance to my the
Flag of the United States,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
    one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

June 14, 1923


I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
    one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

June 14, 1924


I pledge allegiance to the Flag
    of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
    one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.
June 14, 1954

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 06:35 PM

"... sometimes it IS easier to remove the whole issue for a bit rather than to 'decide' about a detail that makes some folks hair-trigger reflexes twitch...

I agree! Maybe someday, Mudcat will even learn that obvious point.

~Susan"

And you would have the edit button I suppose?

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 07:28 PM

Well, I have to say that personally I don't mind the "under God" as much as I mind the Pledge. There's something about it that feels like I'm being compelled to support the Ruling Party, even if that Party is disdainful to me. I used to hate it when I went to movies in the service, and had to stand first for a recording of the "Star-Spangled Banner."
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 07:56 PM

"I have the feeling this may be a God created by" ..... Yikes, I hate to think who this God has been created by.

Regardless .... way too much 'God' these days in world politics.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 08:02 PM

'"I am the Lord thy God" is a good commandment, depending on who says it.'

I think B Dylan said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 08:06 PM

I was trying to remember the words we said to the Pledge when I was a kid and I don't remember them all. It has been so long since I said them and yet, somehow, I am neither disenfranchised, defrocked nor afoul of the law. The only folks who are required to "take the Pledge" are those attaining citizenship and those joining the armed services and, from those groups, a vow of allegience is appropriate. They are not required to cite the deity, nor should they be. Those who choose to thank whatever gods may be should be left the hell alone. Get off Susan's back. If all so-called Christians were as tolerant as she, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

                      Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Cruiser
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 08:14 PM

I regard the Pledge of Allegiance as a necessary and valuable social commitment by a citizen, regardless of political winds of change, to the organization called our democracy for the reciprocal protection of certain unalienable rights and freedoms from that democratic organization. It is a 2-way commitment; a bond not to be legally broken by the pledgor or the pledgee unless high crimes and misdemeanors, especially those regarding the Constitution, occur in our system of democratic justice.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 08:32 PM

"necessary" Not where I live, and we seem to rub along more or less as well or badly as you do in the States.

I am glad we don't generally go in for it anyway. If people mean it, it goes without saying, and if they don't mean it, it's better they don't say it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:45 PM

I recall in the early Fifties, when Eisenhower, one of the better Republican presidents, was in office, a friend of mine applied for a job and was told him he would have to sign a loyalty oath. He asked them, "Does this mean I have to swear to be loyal to the United States Constitution? Or to the Republican Party?" They told him they didn't like his attitude and tore up his application. But by that time, he'd decided he didn't want the job.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Cruiser
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:57 PM

If the job was with the federal government that required an oath then your friend was unfit for the position if he refused the oath.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 11:14 PM

Just follow a good example

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 12:49 AM

It was not a federal government postition. He was applying for a position in the commercial division of a company that also did work under government contracts. He would have no contact with anything having to do with the government contracts. But for no reason they cared to explain, the company arbitrarily required the oath of all its employees. Later, the company dropped the policy.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 12:53 AM

A Pledge of Alliegence is not, to my mind, an endorsement of whichever adminisration is in Oval Office residence. Republicans observed the ritual through an array Democratic administrations. They didn't like it, either. The Pledge (with, or without, religious reference) is made to an ideal, to those principles that we all, pretty much, agree on. Freedom, independance, diversity, opportunity, a malable society. Ours is the most difficult of societies to maintain. We lack common ethnic history, we have no common religion or political philosophy. What was a melting pot for Europeans has become more diverse. There is no "typical" American, any more. What would he look like?
So, we don't know what America looks like but we do know what our America stands for, even during those times when "they" are in the majority. And we know that, if history is on our side, the mood of the country will swing and we'll be back in the driver's seat and we'll be giving the Democrat hell, too. So, don't feel uptight about the Pledge. No matter how you define it, it is an ideal worth supporting.

                   Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 08:06 AM

No clear answer to this question.

It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot's Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

James Madison
" We've staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart."

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We've staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 08:18 AM

"With or without religious formula" we are asked in these situations.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 04:27 PM

Of course, the American experiment was founded on Protestant Christian ethics and values. It was also designed to safeguard the rights of dissidents. It is foolish to suggest that a Jew or Moslem could not be elected. All they need are votes. At one time, it seemed inconceivable that there could be a Roman Catholic president, now it seems, not unlikely, that the most electable candidate in the Democratic Party is African-American. The Democrats nominated a Jew for Vice President. A Moslem, in today's climate, is a long shot but that would not be because he wasn't a Christian.
Is it an advantage to be Christian in the US? Not nearly as much as it once was. We live in an era of cycicism and suspicion toward old values. In the glare of factual enlightenment, in the revelation of clerical misconduct, our society has, to an extent, eschewed Christian context while trying to retain Christian ethics. The resultant chaos from "God is dead" to " Love thy neighbor, anyway".
Ours is an open society, with all the pluses and minuses that brings. And, it is a society with a proud history. Our founders were the guys who said no kings, no aristocracy, no supression of the press, everybody gets a vote (ok, it took them a while to get around to that), everybody gets a jury trial and lots more good stuff. Now, there are always going to be clowns, like we are dealing with now, who try to screw with the system but, try as they might, it's still there. It cleanses itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Mudjack
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 04:27 PM

I like having it there. In this day and age, I'm not sure GOD is really all that happy with it. Followed by trust. Our country has managed to loose trust from a world view.
I believe there is a GOD, A peace loving God. I think we are pissing him / her off.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 04:37 PM

And Mudjack should have the right to include "under God" in his/her Pledge. Even if there had never been such a phrase added, he/she should add it whenever he/she stood with his/her hand over his/her heart. (Can we agree on an acceptable pronoun? I'm gettind tired).
The question, at hand, is whether or not, that phrase should be part of a national ritual. I say, probably not, but it is far from the most pressing of my thoughts. I even sing "God Bless America" at nursing home jobs. Doesn't bother me one whit.

                        Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 06:01 PM

Oh, as an aside...
My stepson just took off on his first "SOLO" trip in an automobile. He got his driver's license yersterday. After we finished school this afternoon, I sent him off to the Post Office to get the mail. I hope both he and the car get back in one piece.
Homeschooling has worked very well for us. He went to a Waldorf(Steiner) elementary school, but he was always behind and hated school. He couldn't write a complete sentence by the time he graduated from eighth grade. The Waldorf philosophy is that students who are behind will blossom when it's their time. When he started high school, Christina and I challenged him directly, and he responded very well. He's enthusiastic, and he asks a lot of intelligent questions. My usual method is to read the textbook aloud to him, and require him to take notes. We discuss the text as we go along. Last year, I read two 900-page books and one 700-page book out loud to him. This year, we have just the Government text, which is about 700 pages; and we're using the Rosetta Stone computer program for German, humanized by a daily half-hour conversation and drill with me. He's taking Physics at the local community college, Algebra at the homeschool center, and English from Christina. Homeschooling has been a challenge, but I've really enjoyed it. Nonetheless, I'll be very happy to finish high school in 2008 - but I have to say that the textbooks and the material we've covered have been very interesting.
Oh, and I guess I should confess that we're watching DVD's of The West Wing for extra credit in Government. One of the many advantages of homeschooling.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 06:28 PM

Wow! It sounds like a challenge, but it also sounds like a great experience!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 11:26 PM

It makes very little difference to me--I already sing all sorts of things I don't believe--for instance every time I sing the Mozart or Verdi Requiem. But, please do yourselves a favor--and don't push this idea on your elected representatives--until liberals get in power. . There are an awful lot of people who have a visceral reaction to any idea of this sort. And the Democrats already have the reputation of being the "Godless" party. Any initiative like this will bring the other side out in droves--and mean things like minimum wage action, environmental action, gun control, etc. will go down the drain---again. Just as the push to remove the 10 Commandments from courthouses did not help the general liberal cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Pledge of Allegiance-why not drop 'God'?
From: Marion
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 01:10 AM

It didn't work for Dr. Pepper...