Where Have All The Americans gone?

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST,wherriebob
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:49 AM

Well lots of them are over here in Scotland. This year alone Inverclyde Folk Club has had the great pleasure to have as guest perfomers, The Master Musicians From The Crooked Road, 12 of the best including the wonderful Laura Boosinger, Ginny Hawker & Tracy Schwartz and the cracking bluegrass outfit, No Speed Limit; The Crooked Jades from San Francisco were wonderful and last Friday, The Foghorn Stringband blew the audience away. Mark Erelli from Boston and Darden Smith were guests last year. Some comments that the Club is becoming too focussed on 'Americana' Sound familiar?

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:47 AM

It is more of an open invitation, just like any other concert. Publicity is handled by a flyer, a website, mailing lists, etc.   Yes, people are opening up their home to strangers. There have been some states that have questioned the legality of it, but for the most part the events go on without incident.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:41 AM

I rather take it that the "house concert" idea is a small concert in a private house with admission by invitation.   

It'd probably be illegal in freedom-loving England now, under the new Licensing regulations, unless a licence had been obtained in advance. Definitely would, if any kind of payment for attending was involved.

That doesn't mean they won't develop here. A bit of illegality never stops people enjoying themselves when they've a mind to. Musical shebeens...

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:36 AM

No the namelessness was NOT an oversight, nor was it rude. I was simply making an observation, you disagree with me and that is fine, but please..not so rude.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:36 AM

House concerts are more formal.   Basically it is a concert - given in someones home. Usually there is no amplification and the performer will play for an audience of 20 to 30 people. An admission is charged and the performer usually keeps all of it, minus expenses. Sometimes there is a pot luck associted with the event, or simple drinks and snacks (no alchol usually).

House concerts are growing in popularity here. The low key and intimate setting makes them fun to attend and a great experience for the performer.   It also helps to fill in gaps in schedules as well as opening up new opportunities to perform.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:30 AM

Point taken, but didn't you see the ";-)"?

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 10:26 AM

Is a house concert what we in Canada would call a kitchen party or ceilidh? Which is to say, bunch of musicians and friends and stray buddies gather in someone's home to party and make music all night? Or are house concerts more formal?

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:28 AM

"I must say that the issue of "Where Are the Americans" concerns me a bit as it seems to imply an intolerance for those who are not American"

I must say that a statement like that reveals a bit of a bias by making an interpretation of this thread with a preconceived notion.   As McGrath pointed out, that is not the kind of person Jerry is.

What most of us are concerned about is what seems to be a lack of interest in folk music among Americans. As I previously stated, there are signs that worry me these days, and a lack of participation even on Mudcat makes us think.

I love reading about what is happening in the UK.   I think it is great that events are publicized on these boards. It may not appeal to everyone, but I think Mudcat works best when it is supplying information.   Just because I cannot attend a session at pub somewhere in England does not mean that I'm not interested. We are learning things from each other.   There is another wonderful thread about house concerts currently running. I understand that the concept is really unique to the U.S. (and I believe Canada), but I think it shows how new stages are being created to keep the music alive.   With a bit of creativity, we just might get more interest in this music. The more people that become interested, the benefits will grow. Funding for perserving archives will increase, opportunities to share the music will grow, and the sense of community will expand.

Let's all keep posting.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 08:37 AM

"Where Are the Americans"... seems to imply an intolerance for those who are not American

Not from Jerry it doesn't. It was a very reasonable question that had crossed my mind here in England. Not a matter of two much from this part of the world but rather of wanting a bit more from elsewhere.

As that nameless one just now said - and I take it the namelessness in this case was just an oversight with a missing cookie rather than a rude gesture at members - I "wish that people would start new posts on music from everywhere".

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:57 AM

As a Canadian who comes here often I see no cause for concern. I very much enjoy the UK and American and Canadian and Australian, etc etc, etc, aspects of this forum. However, I must say that the issue of "Where Are the Americans" concerns me a bit as it seems to imply an intolerance for those who are not American , or at the very least a resentment regarding the amount of UK info. I find that a bit sad and wish that people would start new posts on music from everywhere. This is a great forum but the only way it can express a broad view is for people from everywhere to participate, rather than grumble.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:43 AM

Point taken. But great music - the best music ? - has come out of times and places where the furthest you could get in 28 hours would be the distance you could walk in that time.

The green slogan "think globally, act locally" can apply to music as well.

But the very scale and spread out nature of America is one reason for using the Mudcat as a way of bridging those distances and building community across them. In some places that can be supplemented by people actually being able to meet each other directly, but that's just a bonus. And if anything it makes the Mudcat less important for them - more convenient maybe, as a way of sharing information and so forth, but convenient isn't the same as important.

Good to see some people here whom I hadn't seen posting form some time.

And I quite agree with Azizi about the importance of the Mudcat as a -lace to find out about cultures and folklore, our own and other peoples. For me what is special about the range of music and song that get labelled "folk" is that they all have their roots in that kind of thing, it isn't just about instant entertainment and what's in and what's out.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 07:13 AM

Scrump, the example was simply to demonstrate how big this country is for people who don't have a frame of reference.

Mick

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:12 AM

I am an old Mudcatter who comes back from time to time so I am intrested in this thread and join in as a guest I for one dropped out of discussions when they became vehicles for people to push them selfs,their bands or their clubs this site used to be about discussing and loving music.
In the middle of a thread somebody posts and we then have someone replying with how are you,saw you last saturday you have suddenly gained lost weight got ugly etc.
Some people have decided that they know everything and even when told by more than one person the truth still push their believe down everyones throat because they know better. A long time ago discussion took place about splitting mudcat into two american and uk we made the descision then not to and we where the better for it until recently. You talk of missing americans there are other people from other countries missing also.
Before your fingers start hitting buttons let your brains think (if you have any) and discuss not ram your views down my throat and maybe people will start coming back

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:09 AM

At 65 mph, it would take me 28 hours to reach my daughter's house. That is presuming no stops for gas or anything else. And she only lives slightly more than halfway across the country.

Best to take a break, Mick. "Tiredness can kill" as the motorway signs say over here in the UK.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:22 AM

I recently started a thread on American Blues artist Freddie King only for an American member to take the time and trouble to post and inform our forum only that - he had never heard of him.

Though quite why he would have thought posting that infrmation to be of interest to any other poster is not clear.

But perhaps it is less a matter of nationalites but is a selfish attitude that has developed on our forum. Posts would possibly be better received when they are showing our forum something of potential general interest - rather than when we are expecting only to see something of particular interest to us?

There are after all - PMs supplied for that.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 01:21 AM

Jerry, it's your fault---and I'm glad it is! Since you people sent me that software & stuff, I've been converting cassettes to CDs non-stop.

So there...

Also, I tend to add to a thread when I have personal experiences with the topic that might enlighten others. I suspect being called a folk nazi when I give my opinion has caused me to be here less. Right now I'm reading the Autobiography Of Lincoln Stephens which our local Peru, Illinois library discarded for .50 ! I found several first editions of famous authors too for the same price. Quite tragic.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:48 PM

My last solo gig , --Monday night.
I'm a Scot, and have been associated with folk clubs and the music heard there for FIFTY years.
A short resumeof Monday's repertoire---
The Mingulay Boat song.
Bogle's "No man's Land"
Cheatin' Heart-Jealous Heart-Candy Kisses medley [with vocals]
Banks of the Ohio
Come by the Hills
The Lass o' Fyvie
Only the Hangman
Red River Valley [request]
Dougald MacIntosh
The Parting Glass

    No rigid "tradition" there, I would suggest. Only much loved material gathered in my [admittedly cluttered ] mind over the aforementioned fifty years. Yes--I have over and over had to remind bigoted "traddies" that folk music and song is simply what folk sing.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:32 PM

Gone to BS every one (almost)
When will they ever learn? (mea culpa too)


Actually I love it that there's so much about the UK folk scene (and the UK itself, and Ireland and Canada and Australia and Germany and....)   I can learn a lot that way.

From time to time there's a music thread to which I can contribute something that might be worthwhile-- above the line, it's mostly just lurking and learning.   Below the line there's a lot to be learned too--the recent thread on post-Holocaust Germany is a shining example.

I really enjoy reading tales of bygone years by Art Thieme and Jerry--and other performers and writers--but there's not much I can add---except to say "Great Stuff!"--which I do.

I don't really see grounds for concern.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Janie
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 11:14 PM

The currently running thread, thread.cfm?threadid=95306&messages=125, proposing a Western USAA Mudcat gathering perfectly illustrates the effects of big geography. One can live in "the West" in the USA and still be huge distances away from others who also live in 'the West.

Janie

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 09:56 PM

At 65 mph, it would take me 28 hours to reach my daughter's house. That is presuming no stops for gas or anything else. And she only lives slightly more than halfway across the country.

Mick

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 09:41 PM

I'd love to get a song circle together, or even a house concert (Lord knows, I've got the room!). But it's a BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG country and this is a small city. If you're in the UK, consider how where you'd be if you left your home and traveled 2.5 hours at 80 miles per hour (128.75 kilometers per hour), where would you end up? That's a constants speed, by the way, taking into account other vehicles, etc. (It's also 5 mph over the speed limit, which is 75 mph here for cars.)

I'd end up in Salt Lake City, Yellowstone National Park, Grand Tetons National Park, Sun Valley...or about halfway across the state of Idaho (I wouldn't even reach the state capital of Boise -- I'd need another half-hour or so for that).

Our county covers 1,148 square miles (2,973.31 square kilometers). About 70,000 people live here, giving a population density of about 70 people per square mile; there are 640 acres per square mile and 2.59 square kilometers per square mile.

Briefly, there's an awful lot of empty (much of which is National Forest or BLM land).

My point is, lots of Americans live do not live in New York or LA, but in the middle somewhere. And there's an awful lot of middle.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 09:10 PM

Everyone who reads and posts on Mudcat is not a musician or a singer or a composer of songs.

Though I have a great deal of admiration for performers and composers, I want to give a shout out for those of us who come to Mudcat because we like to learn about different cultures. And we like to collect folkloric examples. And we like to learn more about the origin & meaning of those examples. And we like to find variants of those examples, and consider how those examples, and their performances remain constant or change over time. And we like to consider how that music "speaks" to, provides information about, and impacts individuals and groups of people in countless number of ways.


Instead of a musician, or vocalist, or composer of songs, I consider myself an amateur folklorist, a collector of examples from various oral traditions. Other Mudcat Members and Guests may also consider themselves to be amateur or professional folklorists.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/folklore gives this definition for "folklore":

"The comparative study of folk knowledge and culture".

-snip-

I know I'm not the only one who treasures Mudcat because it provides opportunities for information exchange about the music and the dance and the cultures that produce or produced them.

I don't consider myself a folkie. I'm not in to song circles.
I don't go to folk festivals-or at least the type of folk festivals I get the sense that most of you mean when you say folk festivals. And I don't go to folk camps. For the most part, I'm not a social joiner.

But I like to talk and I like to "listen" to others talk. I like to learn. And I like to share what I have learned. And thanks to some Mudcatters-to my surprise-I have also found out that I enjoy playing with words. Sometimes reading and posting to Mudcat makes even a serious person like me smile.

Maybe all of this-or none of this-has to do with Jerry's question "Where have all the Americans gone?".

But I am an American. And I've not gone.

Besides, it's my 2 cents and I felt like spending it here and now.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: jimmyt
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 09:09 PM

I have been remiss in not posting much lately but my life has just been going in other directions and I DO miss my friends here a LOT. I promise to get up to see Jerry soon, I am so sorry to have to miss Getaway as it was a hoot last year, and in 2 days I will be meeting my UK friends on a bridge in BANBURY!!! woo-hoo! I have learned almost everything I know about folk music in this forum and it will always be special to me. I hope within the next few months to be back annoying you all on a regular basis! jimmyt

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST,Janie
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 08:23 PM

I vote for "We are a BIGGGG Country" and the apellation 'folk' covers a heck of a lot of musical territory here also. Both comments have already been made above. Also, in most places, we don't have "folk clubs" that seem to equate to the Brit equivalent. Our population is much more dispersed. Geographically small New England and the populated Eastern Seaboard do seem to have definite folk communities, shanty sings, song circles at local pubs, etc. I live in a musically rich area of North Carolina, but we are still spread out relative to New England or larger urban areas. Here folk might mean old-time string music, bluegrass, jugband, mountain ballads, assorted blues genres, old C&W, gospel, spirituals, singer/songwriters, contra dance music, early jazz or fusions of all of the above. It is fairly easy to organize a jam session with lots of fiddle, guitar, banjo and mandolin. Not so easy to get a song circle together.

In my particular neck of the woods, there are plenty of performances, but not so much in the way of participatory events or gatherings.

Janie

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: terrier
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 08:11 PM

***Cajun, and TexMex and Italian-American... And about people in America who are writing good songs and singing them so they get sung, and who don't deserve to be written off as "just another of those singer-songwriters". ***

Not just in America. Music travels. Over here in the UK we enjoy Cajun, Tex mex etc.

It always amazes me that British trad music is so much used in other countries.It also seems odd to me that UK Bluegrass and Country bands can gain a good acceptance in the States.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 07:52 PM

Simply being a human being can and does lead to being insulted and verbally abused. In fact you wouldn't even need to be a human being.

Some people are like that. Most people aren't.   I'll bet that for every instance of verbal abuse any of us has had here there will have been ten, twenty... God knows how many, polite and respectful responses.

Best thing is to ignore the others when they come, as they do come to anyone who posts.
...............
Yes, Jerry, that's the kind of thing I was imagining. The fine details involve stuff I don't understand, but I'm sure there are people who could work it out. And more than that.

I dunno - I read about all this virtual reality and avatars and all that, and I come across amazing looking things every now and again around the net - except that though they look fine the content generally seeme - to me - rubbish. And I envisage someone putting together a "real" Mudcat Tavern where we meet up and listen to each other...

This is drifting the thread though. Right now what is needed is for a few more threads started up and nurtured the way little threads sometimes need nurturing. Threads about, for example, some of the American music that hardly ever seems to turn up here - Cajun, and TexMex and Italian-American... And about people in America who are writing good songs and singing them so they get sung, and who don't deserve to be written off as "just another of those singer-songwriters".

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 07:32 PM

I'm American and I don't post very much, partly because when things got really bad on Mudcat I just lost the inclination to do so, and partly because I'm kind of quiet anyway. I guess Mudcat has become more "Britcentric" but that hasn't bothered me at all, in fact it has gotten me interested in a lot of performers that I wouldn't have known about otherwise, so I think it has really broadened my musical horizons. I do agree that the definition of "folk" in America seems to be broader in scope than what it is in Britain. Since I'm mainly interested in traditional folk, that may be one reason why I find a lot in common with the British part of the on-line community. There just seems to be more emphasis on that aspect of folk music in British circles.   I enjoy the opportunity that Mudcat provides to get a different perspective on the music, and since CD's and downloads are easily available over the internet, if I see a discussion of some British folk singer/instrumentalist who sounds interesting, I am usually able to find a way to listen to samples and purchase a CD if I'm inclined to do so.

So, I have no problem with the fact that Mudcat has lots of input from the Brits. But, I'll try to start contributing more from this side of the pond,just to even things out.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 07:24 PM

My first post, as a GUEST, was a request for lyrics. I was flamed; I persisted and ask again a year or so later when I didn't post as a guest. THEN I got the lyrics.

Simply being an American can and does lead to being insulted and verbally abused (from the Latin "verbum" meaning "word"). I get tired of it, and my fatigue is coming quicker and quicker.

I can't get to festivals and concerts easily -- last April I went to see Natalie McMaster down in Salt Lake City. It was a three hour drive each way, and my wife and I spent two nights so that we could catch both performances. Earlier, she'd performed in Rexburg, Idaho -- 75 miles away, but it was a one night stand and we couldn't get there.

A year ago April we saw the Chieftains -- in SLC.

There is a very active folk scene here, but they aren't big names and they play the Farmers' Market and other such venues. What might even be called "REAL" folk venues....

Sure, I'll stick around and contribute when I can. But frankly, most of the time MOAB is more fun.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 07:23 PM

Hey, Kevin: (I know Kevin's music, by the way, because he was generous in sharing it with me early on in my days here on the Cat.)

I am as computer challenged as the next guy, but I wonder what people would think about a perma-thred that had blue clickies for any Mudcat member who wanted to post them that would link to an on-line site to hear their music. I know that there are a fair number of Catters who have a website where you can hear their music. (I'm not one of them.) But, I do have my Gospel Messengers CD on-line at cdBaby, and when I get my shipment of Handful Of Songs CDs, I'll be putting it on-line at cdBaby, too. I know that Bobert's CD is on there, too, and it's an easy way to hear his music.

And then, there are the five Mudcat blue plate special CDs, which are a wonderful sampler. Think I'll pull one out and put it on the turntable. Is that really a turntable inside my CD player?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 06:54 PM

terrier : ..."it is a window on the rest of world music that all of us should encourage."

Hear. Hear.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: terrier
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 06:44 PM

I'm UK, I live in UK, if I want to know whats going on in the UK I don't need MUDCAT to tell me. So why do I subscribe to MUDCAT? Simple.
I don't want to be insular, the world's a big interesting place, music is music wherever you live. I know I will probably never meet most of the people who post post on this site from all over the world but I can still get a lot of pleasure from just taking part. Years ago we you'st to have Pen Pals, now we use the internet.

Just a thought, I seem to detect in this thread a feeling of 'where has the folk gone?' Well, I was fortunate enough to be at a session a few years ago at Northwich (pretty well in the middle of the UK.) the music and song was superb. It ranged from Irish trad music through to Cajun and all points in between. It seems that every one in the room had something to give to the evening. Why is this so unusual, well,I've been around the Folk scee for more years than I care to admit to and I've heard too many times the comment 'there's no young people comming into folk'. Well , this room was filled with people at least half my age and it made me realise that folk music hasn't gone anywhere. What is different is that I've grown out of the age group I expected to find it.

Is it possible that MUDCAT is just not attracting the whole gamut of people who are hooked on 'real music'. There are so many sites on the net for people to hook into. I would love to get to some of the song circles and clubs in the States I read about on MUDCAT, but I have to be content just reading the posts.

As a UK'er, I do realise that MUDCAT is esentially an American site but it is a window on the rest of world music that all of us should encourage.

Sorry to go on for so long, I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 04:35 PM

Theer does seem to be a lot of animus expressed about "singer-songwriters", and my impression is that this largely comes from Americans. What I mean is, rather than picking out the people who are writing good songs with roots in the American traditions and sharing the discovery, there's a tendency to talk as if such people didn't exist. That might tend to drive away people who are looking for such people.

There is an enormous amount of rubbish out there, wherever you live. But it seems to me the best way is to ignore the stuff that strikes you as rubbish, and concentrate on the stuff you think is worth listening to. I think that even goes for cases where someone else is praising something you think is rubbish. (Except, if it's someone whose taste you have learned to respect, which is true of a number of people on the Cat, give it another listen or two.)

I quite agree with what Jerry said about how it would help if we reached out for the music itself from time to time in our discussions, the way we would if we were in the same room. We can do that too, but it's a matter of getting into the way of doing it casually and easily. My head spins with the rate at which new technology comes along, and I'll never catch up with it, but even if we lag a few years behind the state of the art, there's a whole heap of slightly outdated magic tools ready to hand.

I wish we still had the Mudcat Radio. I wonder if maybe out there there is someone with the know how and dedication and resources to fill in that gap, uasing some of those magic tools.

Preferably someone in America, in the light of the perceived imbalance identified by Jerry in this thread.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 04:09 PM

Dick:

I am not aware of many of my friends performing around here in a long time. Dave Para and Cathy Barton live in Missouri and the economics of traveling this far don't make much sense. I've seen a notice of Skip Gorman playing once, and Gordon plays in Hartford once in awhile. My wife and I did go up to hear him and Carol a couple of years ago.

Part of the issue hearing friends perform is that if you're also a performer, you often find that you're performing the same night that they are. The other thing around here is that the number of performance venues has shrunk dramatically in the last fifteen years and many places book younger singer/songwriters. That's not a knock on younger singer/songwriters. I used to be one. But, many of my friends who traveled and performed almost constantly aren't on the road that often, anymore. Sally Rogers and Howie Bursen both have jobs that are a heavy commitment, Chris Shaw, who used to perform regularly down here has taken a full time job and cut way back on performing. And so it goes.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 04:08 PM

I think that most Americans that consider themselves "folkies" in 2006 are more likely to be listening to contemporary singer-songwriters. There are very few people who discuss this kind of music on this kind of site.

The traditional audience is aging and not being replaced in equal numbers. I think in the UK there is more respect for the traditions and artists have no problem dipping into the well.   Here in the U.S., the trend seems to be the latest song that the artist has written.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 04:01 PM

I'd have thought the time aspect would balance out - after all, if someone in New England sits down and posts something at their 10pm, say, it'll be a longtime before anywhere in Old England is likely to see it.

I know Americans are more spread out - but on the other hand there are a lot more of them around. Something like 300 million now, I read today. So most of them aren't too interested in folk, however you define it, but that's every bit as true in England.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 03:59 PM

Jerry-
Could it be that the reason you haven't seen or heard your old budies in lo! these many years is that you haven't made any effort to? They're performing, sometimes pretty close to where you are.

And Ron-
Could it be that Guy Davis only drew 50 people because there wasn't enough publicity? I for one might have attended, but I hadn't heard about it.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 03:57 PM

And when we have gone to bed, some of the learned American night owls are just hitting their stride.

I think I'd say that some of the most informative postings here have come from non-Brits - some of whom seem to be gone.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 03:41 PM

Perhaps if a music thread you've started is slow taking off, you could post something else in it to bring it back to the front page. Otherwise, most of us likely will never see it, regardless of its worth. The time span from posters west to posters east also affects who sees a thread before it moves 'back in time'. Those durn Brits are perky and posting while lots of North Americans are sleeping.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 03:40 PM

You know, the inherent limitation in all of this is that we're typing these little black squiggly lines, trying to talk about music.
If we were truly sitting around a kitchen table, someone would pull a guitar or tin whistle out of a case and start to play a song. No amount of squiggly lines can emulate that. Or, if you were sitting at the table in our great room, I'd probably say "Have you heard.... and put a CD in the player." When Colin and Terry were here, it was the most natural thing, just to sing or play, or throw some music in the machine. Colin played a CD that he had with him, and the whole UK/US barrier disappeared. I've read endless threads by people that I've come to consider friends in here, with no idea what they or their music sounds like. Some of us have exchanged tapes or CDs (if we have any) and that helps a lot.

We are musicians sharing everything but music. (Other than talking about it.) I don't know any way around it, unless we all were adept at doing blue clickies and posting a song occasionally, in a thread.
That may or not be practical. The only blue clickies I have any familiarity with are when I'm freezing cold.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Ferrara
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 03:33 PM

I'm not in favor of an official regional prefix for events & gigs, but I am in favor of stating the general location where possible. Guess we should start doing that for the FSGW Getaway too, huh? Would "MD:" be enough of a regional identifier on future Getaway threads? Or "MD,US:"?

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 03:04 PM

When someone says to me "There don't seem to be any interesting threads just now", my inclnation is to respond "Start some." Some will have little or no response but no harm done. Start another on a different subject.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 02:49 PM

If people don't start threads about American music because they think the Cat is too overloaded by stuff about music from across the Atlantic the effect is that the Cat gets even more overloaded by stuff about other types of music.

At present that tends to be music from the British Isles. I'd sooner it included more from other places, because it's a big world with lots of wonderful music. (And some of the best from inside North America.)

There's nothing much people over here can do about it really. I suppose they could stop starting threads, but I don't really think that is the right way. I suppose we could start threads about American music, but I'm pretty sure quite a lot of people over here do that in any case.

As for the arguments about whether something is folk or not, true that can get a bit boring, and it diverts attention from the interesting part, which is whether it's any good, and where it comes from and where it's going to and what people can learn from it... But if the discussion about those kinds of things is lively enough, the trainspotter stuff about exact classification should die away.

And unless I'm very much mistaken the "is-this-really-folk" people are as likely to be from over there as from back here.

As for threads not taking-off - I'm sure most people who have ever started threads have started a good few which didn't take off. About every topic under the sun. It's just the way the Mudcat works.

And I repeat my plea for an official prefix for local events and gigs, everywhere, because I think it actually woudl help.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Steve-o
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 02:30 PM

Yeah, I miss 'em too, and I'm one of 'em. I used to think the old stalwarts had just sort of gone by the way, over time, but it seems even those people still show up on the BS threads. Maybe it's a problem with subject matter, I don't know. I know that for myself, I'm pretty good at adding an opinion or some knowledge, but I'm not much good at "starting up" a subject. I agree with Ron that sometimes it kind of disheartening to find so little in discussion about American folk music, and I guess it's partly my own fault.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 01:34 PM

P.S. Please bring back the Americans to this forum. I, for one, really miss 'em.

DT

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 01:32 PM

One of the problems with relating to each other's music is that we, in the UK, tend to know only those American acts who cross the pond to perform. This leaves us able to respond only by saying "Who?" when first class local American acts are being discussed.

I suspect that the same is true in t'other direction.

It would be a great help to have a way of hearing these people through posting examples of their work for members to enjoy. The same would be true of hearing Mudcatter's songs.

More and more I find myself ashamed to be a countryman of those who refer to "American music" with a slight, but noticeable, sneer as "not folk".

It is long past time that they realised that EVERY country has its own traditions, all equally valid.

Brits, in particular, are prone to refer to "a thousand years of history", when in fact very little music can be traced back further than 200 years, and much of that belongs in genres other than folk.

Just my 2p worth of opinion, which will, no doubt, result in my being cut to ribbons by the purists. Still, thats how I see it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 01:27 PM

Well, I just started a thread about an American traditional music festival. We'll see if anyone notices.

I've noticed that there is a lot of UK specific content - perhaps more than there is US specific content. On the other hand, there are lots of threads that apply equally well in both places, in Canada, and everywhere else. Being conscious that our more general threads will be read on both sides of the Atlantic might help us surpass those kinds of divisions.

As far as nasty comments - I know it's just my way, but I try very hard not to say anything gratuitously negative about anyone on the 'net, Mudcat included. Even if I were inclined to be snarky ( or "Mudcatty?!"), the knowledge that whatever I say here will be preserved in perpetuity through Google and other search engines would be a pretty convincing corrective. Do I really want "snarky" to be the image I present to the world? I don't think so.

It does sadden me to realize that some people have been disuaded from participating in the Mudcat because of that kind of unpleasantness. For me the overarching goal is always the preservation of folk music as a living tradition. Being nice to people (even when they don't yet know much) is one way to do that.

Just my 2 cents.

Dan Schatz

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 01:02 PM

I started two or three threads about performers or groups I heard in concert and thought were terrific, or at least making interesting music worth discussion, and they sank to the bottom of the deep blue page with nary a comment.

Nasty personal attacks by people who disagree with other's opinions also discourage posting freely for those of us with epidermi thinner than rhinoceros hides.

Elmer

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: 282RA
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 12:52 PM

I posted about this once also. When I first started posting here around 2000 or so, it seemed to me to be overwhelmingly North American in nature. I posted about people like Scott Joplin, Kid Ory, Gene Vincent and like that and got good feedback and some very entertaining and interesting discussions.

I don't do this anymore because the forums is so Brit-centric that I don't see the point. All they talk about is stuff that I have no idea about. Occasionally, I recognize a name such as Ewan MacColl (even then I've only heard a few things by him) but most of the time, I have no idea what they're talking about so I stay off the threads since I don't know what they're talking about and I don't want to post about American folk/blues/country/ragtime personalities because it doesn't appear that these personalities resonate in the minds of non-Americans much and American posters don't seem much interested in posting much anymore.

When I look through the music threads, I find very few that are interesting enough to post in, so I end up posting in the bullshit section all the time. Before 2004 or so, I NEVER posted in the bullshit section because the music section was far more interesting. Now, it's done a complete turnaround.

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 12:30 PM

Size matters. America is a BIGGG country.

I just put my Handful of Songs album out on CD and when I look down the list of friends who played on the album when I recorded it in 1989 it makes me realize how long it is since I've seen most of them. Sally Rogers and Howie Bursen worked on the album, and I don't think I've seen Howie since then. I saw Sally once, and she came up and introduced herself, even though she's a long time friend. It's pretty sad when your friends have to wear name tags. Ed Trickett worked on the album, and I don't believe I've seen him since then. I go down the list, and that's the case with most of the other musicians: Gordon Bok, Skip Gorman, Pat Conte, Chris Shaw and Dave Para and Cathy Barton. I don't think that I've seen any of them more than twice in the last 17 years. When I was running a concert series, I booked all of these people several times and came to know them as friends. No one is going to drive several hundred miles just to sit around the kitchen table. We have to do that in cyber space now.

My perception (tell me that I'm wrong) is that UKers, Aussies, Canucks (is that a slanderous term? I hope not) Danes, and all the rest of you are much more narrowly focused on traditional music than us Americans. I start threads on groups like Los Lobos, knowing that it will peak at three or four responses. And I do it anyway, just for the few people who might know who Los Lobos is, or have an adventurous mind. Maybe it goes back to growing up in England and mostly just hearing whatever BBC chose to play. Over here, we grew up exposed to a crazy mix of music. It doesn't seem strange that Richie Valens had a hit with La Bamba, polkas were all the rage in the forties, rhythm and blues and soul music shared the airwaves with crooners and rockabilly and Dave Brubeck. In my collection of music, folk music makes up maybe 15% of the total. It's a beloved 15%, but if that was all I listened to, I'd go nuts.

This being a folk music site, it's reasonable that there isn't a lot of response to non-folk music (even if it can be argued that Los Lobos is as "folk" as Fairport Convetion.)

Maybe someday there'll be a community for people who plain just love music.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Where Have All The Americans gone?
From: Bert
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 12:23 PM

...they still perform to an audience that is drawing pension checks. The interest is fading...


I don't know if it's the interest that's fading, more likely - it's the spare cash that's fading.

Which gives me an idea. Would it be possible for Mudcat to regularly post some music that we can listen to. Then we could perhaps get to hear some of these performers even if we can't afford to travel to their concerts. Sort of a song of the week thing, then we could have a thread to discuss it.