BS: Big Brain - Little Brain

Subject: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain : Religions roots?
From: BaldEagle2
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 03:50 PM

The concept of Big Brain, Little Brain has been around since about 1985.   In the medical profession, "Little Brain" generally refers to the enteric nervous system, while "Big Brain" is all the rest of the cerebral cortex and its gray matter.

To simplify, there is a little part of the brain which sees and hears the outside world, processes language and is aware of the body's surroundings.   It is your conciousness.   It is a tiny part of the brain as a whole.

And the rest of the brain is where memories are stored, patterns compared, reflexes invoked, and the whole nervous system kept under control.   By comparison to the conscious part of the brain, it is really, really massive.

The latest research, using high technology machinery, suggests that Little Brain processes about 2,000 bits of data per second.   In the scheme of things, a reasonable sized computer, doing a reasonable job.

The same study shows that Big Brain processes about 4 billion bits of data per second.   It has access to every waking memory, every dream, every sensation you have ever experienced.   When you hear beautiful music, it has the power to make you cry.

The problem we have : the big big problem we all have : is that Little Brain and Big Brain have no simple method of communicating with each other.

For instance, in mid-sentence you may find that you suddenly realise
that you have forgotten the topic under discussion.   A phenomenom so common, it is called a "Brain-Skip" (or other similar meaning phrase for your particular part of the world).

Now just think that through: Big Brain has access to every memory of every experience you ever had - and yet it cannot tell you something as recent as a few seconds ago.   

It would seem that Big Brain simply has no real concept of language per se: that is the province of Little Brain.   And Little Brain has no direct access to all those memory stores.

Big Brain - Little Brain explains such phenomena as deja vu, fear of public speaking, dream mechanisms and so on.   (If anyone wants, I can go into details, perhaps off line).

The fascinating insight (for me) is that it might also explain where all religions come from.

The thing is, is that Little Brain has no idea of the existence of Big Brain.   Even with all the data and facts to hand, none of us are really aware of our own Big Brain.   It surrounds our Little Brain, and is perhaps thereby totally invisible to us.

But suppose for a moment, you did become aware of your own Big Brain. What on earth would you make of it?   At a moment of great stress, emotion or whatever, you were suddenly aware that you were in the presence of someing about 2,000,000 times smarter than you, knew every single thing that you had ever done, and was everywhere in the universe that you had ever been.

Wow.   Obviously you have been in the presence of a god.

And obviously this god is not you yourself - you know you are not a God.   Even the most feeble attempts of yours to perform a miracle failed miserably - so the God you just met must have been an external being.

And when our ancestors had such experiences, they found that others in their tribe had near identical experiences.   It became clear to them that the same external entity had revealed itself to each of them.   An enitity which knew all things, was omnipotent, and which never revealed itself or its purpose to them in any regular or systematic manner.

In the way theology explains away all that is inexplicible, these new emergent theologies were first required to explain themselves away. And the different explanations that each tribe came up with gave us commonality and diversity in our religions.

Perhaps.   A point worthy of debate, nicht wahr?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 03:54 PM

... theology explains away all that is inexplicible ...

As an Anglican, comfortable with a theology where thinking is an important and supported activity, phrases like that one really get my blood boiling.

BTW, I've always heard "Big Brain - Little Brain" used as a reference to the one in the skull and the one in the penis. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:04 PM

Cardboard fish?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:09 PM

BOTH my brains are hurting now !

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Les from Hull
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:12 PM

I'm sorry, you lost me when you said I'm not a God.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:19 PM

..what about Faith?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:26 PM

The preacher said:

"A philosopher is like a blind man searching in the dark for something that isn't there."

The philospher said:

"Just like a preacher, except the preacher finds it."

??????

John

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 05:49 PM

Interesting material to explore.

Question: Is it possible that the condition or person that used to be called 'idio-savant' somehow taps into the Big Brain? And child prodigies- might they have unwittingly found a path to the Big Brain unknown to the rest of us?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 07:23 PM

Child Prodigies and 'idio-savant's usually only have a very narrow pipe to a very small area of the Big Brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Lox
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 07:25 PM

I've got a very narrow pipe in my small brain ... (?) ...

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: number 6
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 07:52 PM

Sorta like RAM (random access memory) and ROM (read only memory).

Hmmmmmmmm .....


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 12:23 AM

Interesting you should mention idio-savants, Ebbie. I just watched a fascinating documentary on the CBC tonight about a young savant from London. He is extremely gifted both mathematically and linguisticly.

He has been diagnosed as autistic, but with a difference. Unlike most with autism, he not only functions very well on a social level, he can communicate how he is processing numbers in his brain. (basically they take on shapes and colour and appear as pieces of a jigsaw puzzle) During the documentary he learned to speak extremely functional and subtley nuanced Icelandic in 7 days.

The scientists who were working with him, suggested that what was going on in his brain was similar to what BaldEagle2 has outlined.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 02:47 AM

BTW, I've always heard "Big Brain - Little Brain" used as a reference to the one in the skull and the one in the penis. :~)

~Susan

So I suspect that the nature of the individual man would reflect which is bigger in his case.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 03:08 AM

coming from a different perspective, Daniel Dennett has formulated a concept of the relationship between the conscious and unconsioucs functioning of the brain, which agrees in may respects with that. the main difference is that it doesn't require the two functions (recation and evaluation, if you like) to be located in separate organs. But it makes experiment design much easier if they are.

One of the interesting characteristics of this concept is that it produces a result very close to the traditional religious concept of soul- a part of you which is conscious, but separate from the 'earthly' bodily functions, and which is often betrayed by the weak flesh but can also transcend it. the main difference is that it's not immortal, and is as purely physical as the other brain, and just as easily damaged by trauma, chemicals, radiation etc.

Interestingly, Dennett's ideas also have a place for Satan and possession by demons- except that he would call them memes which happen to be destructive to society and/ or the host. So the interesting question is: where do memes operate? In the LB or the BB or in the connection between the two?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:01 AM

I feel sorry for men... Firstly; God, Nature, Evolution, call it what you will, gives them only enough blood to run one brain at a time - now we discover that they have THREE brains. Explains a lot.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Slag
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 11:01 AM

The strain on my brain is mainly a large pain. The duramater (Tough Mother) and the piamater (Little Mother) don't seem to matter at all. It's the little grey (gray?) cells that make the big difference, in all their convoluted ways. Left, right, hypocampus, cerebellum (antebellum?) (unky-bellum? [they're always at it]). Medulla ah-bologny-- thus saith the Medulla Oblongata, "The Libido is intact, the race will survive" (copyrighted 1994) by yours truly. We are the brain. The brain is us. I will now get a lobotomy and join the Democratic Party!! (and as the boos and hisses [and herses] subside)...or a complete cranial excuvation and join the Republican Party (Thunderous applesauce from all those who don't really get the joke). Yes the Mind is a terrible thing, to waste. Consider yourselves lightened.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 12:27 PM

Humph. I was hoping for an actual discussion. Thanks to those who tried.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Slag
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 12:53 PM

Obviously, one who doesn't get the joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 01:12 PM

Can I be a spoilsport?

For those of you taking this thread at face value, google enteric nervous sysyem and see where it is located...

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 01:20 PM

You know, I had a gut feeling it would be there...

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,Bill Blake
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 01:27 PM

"As an Anglican, comfortable with a theology where thinking is an important and supported activity, phrases like that one really get my blood boiling."


Susan, is there any possibility that who or what you really are might be infinitely more vast than this "Anglican" identity?

How do you know but ev'ry bird that cuts its airy way is a vast world of delight, clos'd by your theology?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 01:37 PM

Bill, you have clearly completely misunderstood the rationale of Susan's point.

She is saying that it is not necessarily incompatible to have both religious belief and an intelligent enquiring mind.

You obviously don't share the former, and interestingly your response suggests that you lack the latter as well or you might have been able to respond in a relevant fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,Bill Blake
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 02:20 PM

Take a deep breath, lox. Just because you don't have a civil response doesn't make my questions wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 02:34 PM

Guest Bill Blake. Who pulled your chain? If, summoning all your brainpower, all you can do is provoke people why bother? Take it out on your wife or your pet and leave people here in peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 02:56 PM

Oh, I get it: not supposed to ask certain sorts of questions. Gosh, I'm sorry. My chain wasn't pulled. Susan came out boiling, and I thought it interesting.

The comment "... theology explains away all that is inexplicible ..." sounds like a perfectly reasonable statement to me. And it relates (if you'd all calm down and think about it) to the original post.

If you question whether theology is possibly a limiting conceptual (brain) filter, certain folks get riled very quickly. Gosh I'm sorry.

Is this now a forum guarded by the theological thought police? Can't ask WYSYWIG an earnest question in response to her boiling Anglican blood?

Have some more turkey, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,Bill Blake
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 03:05 PM

That was me, just above.   Seriously, people, I'm a little amazed at the bile the questions turned up. Happy Thanksgiving, to the Yanks, and happy whatever to the Brits.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 03:44 PM

Just been reading the lovely poet Philip Larkin.

"Religion......that moth-eaten musical brocade / created to pretend we never die"

Isn't that just beautiful......What a sense of peace it gives..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 03:47 PM

My dear bill,

Thank you for your concern. I feel fine.

I fail to see that my response was remotely uncivil, being so dry and academic that it almost sent me to sleep writing it.

I'm surprised georgiansilver was still awake to post a comment. ;-)

The simple reality of your response to susans remark is that you were making assumptions about what being "anglican" means to her, and therefore imposing your definition of it on her, thus putting words in her mouth.

A nintelligent line of enquiry in my experience first ascertains what it is enquiring about before offering a solution.

And your solution, phrased as a question, was so vague and idealized that we as fellow enquirers are left about as nourished intellectually as a Mconalds employee after a hard shift.

Cutting but civil.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 03:57 PM

Guest Lox........I'm surprised georgiansilver was still awake to post a comment. ;-)....Why would I not be awake enough to post such a comment?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: BaldEagle2
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 03:59 PM

I suppose it is time for a "mea culpa" for not researching "enteric nervous system" with all due diligence.

When psychiatrists and psychologists talk of little-brain big-brain, they mean it in the way I intended: a small conscious segment of brain embedded in a vaster, non-cognizant brain.   (As per Heitkemper publishing that dreaming during sleep is the way that Big Brain and Little Brain do most of their communicating).

When neurologists use the same term, they are referring to the way in which the enteric nervous system is independent of the cerebellum, and acts as if it were a little brain in its own right.

On researching the psychological aspect of little-brain big-brain, I kept stumbling into references to the enteric nervous sytem, and thought that the two disciplines were using the same phraseology to describe the same phenomenom.    (Silly me).

I apologise for the confusion that my use of inaccurate terminology has caused.

And if I remove the phrase "theology explains away all that is inexplicible" from my original text, could we discuss the hypothesis posed in the rest of it?   Big-Brain Little-Brain is now accepted science for the cause of deja vu.   I cannot find any reference to the possibility that a similar sort of brain-skip could be the cause of some "religious experiences".

Thanks for your kind understanding.

BE2

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Slag
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:41 PM

Yup. There are a lot of threads that discuss theology and many for letting off steam. This one doesn't seem like it should evoke that sort of response. Just a moment. Let me confer with my little brain ( uh huh, mmm. ok. yea, me too) ok, looks like we should stay within the narrow confines of the topic as presented.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 05:05 PM

"Guest Lox........I'm surprised georgiansilver was still awake to post a comment. ;-)....Why would I not be awake enough to post such a comment?"

Because of my response "being so dry and academic that it almost sent me to sleep writing it."

(the line before the one you quoted. My comment including your name was self depracating joke i.e. I used myself as the butt of my own joke)

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 05:51 PM

Ah now I comprehend. I guess my personal academic head was out of sync when I digested your comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 06:27 PM

The idea that all Religion sprouts form the 'Big/Little Brain' thing comforts Atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: BaldEagle2
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 06:55 PM

Are you proposing that any idea that comforts Atheists can be dismissed out of hand, simply because it comforts them, Foolestroupe?    Some sort of "anything that comforts our enemy is our enemy" philosophy, perhaps?

Wasn't that the attitude that had Copernicus (or to be more accurate "Niclas Kopernik") publicly refute his theory that the earth moved around the sun, and not vice versa?

The refutation did not actually stop the earth moving around the sun, but it did give comfort to the Theists of the day.

Regards

BE2

BE2

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: bobad
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 07:14 PM

"or to be more accurate "Niclas Kopernik""

Actually I believe that should be Mikolaj Kopernik, to be more accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: BaldEagle2
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 07:41 PM

I acquiese to your superior spelling, bobad.

(I was quoting his name as given in the Catholic Encyclopaedia).

And to be more precise, it was not Copernicus who was at the center of the famous controversy, but Galileo.   Galileo recanted his own belief in the Copernican system - which is not quite in the same league as refuting your own theory.

Regards

BE2

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 08:16 PM

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,Zebulon
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 11:23 PM

"And obviously this god is not you yourself - you know you are not a God."

To the contrary, there is a great deal of very interesting spiritual literature now that suggests that we all are God. That doesn't mean that we all are in charge of everything and everyone else, it simply means that God, being infinite, comprises all beings and all phenomena...since the infinite must, by definition, comprise everything. Everything arises out of the infinite, and everything is God extending itself into manifestation.

The large brain you speak of may indeed be analogous to the God presence/consciousness (which is implicit in everyone), while the small brain is analogous to the ego...which falsely imagines itself to be separate from God and from everyone else...and doesn't listen to the God within most of the time (if at all).

That is the crux of the spiritual problem, Bald Eagle.

Your view of God is the ego's view of God...meaning, it sees "God" as a much bigger (but separate) and probably mythical version of itself. God is not separate from anyone or anything. God is not male, female, or neutral, but is all of those together. God cannot be argued with or bargained with because He/She/It is not separate from you. You can't have an argument with something that is not separate from yourself nor can you get away from it...except by pretending it isn't there. ;-)

The ego either pretends God isn't there...or if it's religiously inclined it turns God into a monstrous (and sacred) version of itself on a much larger scale...but whatever it does, it makes sure to keep God SEPARATE from people.

And God is not separate from you or anyone else. You are God, and so is everyone else, but until you realize that you and everyone else and everything else IS God you will continue concocting bizarre arguments to prove that the impossible separate God you made up in your mind can't exist. And you will continue, in all probability, hating, killing, wasting, and messing up your world...if you're like the average human being who lives entirely in his ego consciousness.

It's amusing. But it's your free will, so go right ahead if you want to. God will not stop you. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,Bill Blake
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 11:30 PM

Thank you, Zebulon. Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:18 AM

Who said I wasn't an Atheist?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:38 AM

"To the contrary, there is a great deal of very interesting spiritual literature now that suggests that we all are God"

I can't find now the site about the original "Be your own Pope" by the Discordians. It had a business card that you could print off and hand around announcing that you were the Pope of Your Own Church...


AH! it's mentioend in the Wiki entry...

According to page 00036 of the Principia Discordia, a pope is "every single man, woman, and child on this Earth."

Included in the Principia Discordia there is an "official =POPE= card" (on page 00036) that may be reproduced and distributed freely to anyone and everyone. Papacy, however, is not granted through possession of this card — it is merely to inform people that they are a genuine and authorized Pope of Discordia.

While the powers of a Pope were not necessarily enumerated in the Principia, we are given some idea from a note under the card which states, "A =POPE= is someone who is not under the authority of the authorities."

~~~~~~~~`
Give a monkey a brain and he'll swear he's the center of the universe.

Discordian Quotes


If at first you don't succeed, try following the instructions.

Et sic patet quod totus mundus est sicut unum speculum plenum luminibus praesentantibus divinam sapientam, et sicut carbo effundens lucem.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:44 AM

Oh, and if you think being your own pope is bad enough and have difficulty coping with

This understanding of the notion of Pope has far reaching consequences in Discordianism. For example, the introduction to Principia Discordia says, "Only a Pope may canonize a Saint. ... So you can ordain yourself — and anyone or anything else — a Saint."

then just ignore this one...


The Law of Fives is summarized on page 00016 of the Principia Discordia:

The Law of Fives states simply that: ALL THINGS HAPPEN IN FIVES, OR ARE DIVISIBLE BY OR ARE MULTIPLES OF FIVE, OR ARE SOMEHOW DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY APPROPRIATE TO 5.
The Law of Fives is never wrong.
The Law of Fives includes the word "Five" five times.

Like most of Discordianism, the Law of Fives appears on the surface to be either some sort of weird joke, or bizarre supernaturalism; but under this, it may help clarify the Discordian view of how the human mind works; Lord Omar is quoted later on the same page as having written, "I find the Law of Fives to be more and more manifest the harder I look."

Appendix Beth of Robert Shea's and Robert Anton Wilson's The Illuminatus! Trilogy considers some of the numerology of Discordianism, and the question of what would happen to the Law of Fives if everyone had six fingers on each hand. The authors suggest that the real Law of Fives may be that everything can be related to the number five if you try hard enough. Sometimes the steps required may be highly convoluted.

Another way of looking at the Law of Fives is as a symbol for the observation of reality changing that which is being observed in the observer's mind. Just as how when one looks for fives in reality, one finds them, so will one find conspiracies, ways to determine when the apocalypse will come, and so on and so forth when one decides to look for them. It cannot be wrong, because it proves itself reflexively when looked at through this lens.


ooooooooooooo...
My Head Hurts....

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:49 AM

Thus the law of Fives explains WHY the Middle East just HAS to end up with them tossing nukes around -

unless sane people DO SOMETHING USEFUL to stop them!


OK I skipped a step -

because both sides are utterly convinced by now that the other side is totally evil and out to destroy them...

Get it?

Got it?

Good!

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 08:03 AM

When god made man, she was just kidding...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 08:23 AM

http://ozyandmillie.org/d/20061114.html

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Bee
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 10:41 AM

The view of God described by Zebulon is interesting and certainly universally inclusive. It does suggest, (does it not?), that some sort of spiritual agnosticism is the philosophy that could most closely approximate a 'true religion'.

I'm not an educated philosopher, or a biologist, but I do tend to think there is a lot more for us to learn about the biology and function of the brain/mind.

About God, I Don't Know. She/He/It has never manifested itself to me personally, although my sister believes that has happened to her. I respect my sister; she is intelligent and thoughtful, but I continue to suspect her experience was a product of biology as opposed to divinity.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,Bagpuss
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 11:19 AM

Its a while since I have done any serious study of the area but any idea that talks of seperate bits of the brain which do not communicate well with eachother is pretty outmoded. I have never heard of any serious neuropsychology work that talks about big brain and little brain in this way. It sounds more like the sort of internet pop psychology that talks about left brained and right brained people by completely misunderstanding the real science. The nearest real work I can think of would be that work showing the pre frontal cortex is important in decision making and planning etc. And there is no suggestion that this area is in any way isolated from the rest of the brain. On the contrary, it needs to be well connected in order to synthesise all the different inputs that go into decision making.

It lookws like you have taken the stuff about the enteric nervous system being fairly autonomous and misapplied it to some pop psychology rubbish about big brain little brain. By the way I was the guest that pointed it out and I honestly thought it was a deliberate joke along the lines of the DHMO scare stuff.

I would be able to go into more detail if I managed to get more than 5 hours sleep per night at the moment.

Someone should summon wolfgang to this thread, he always seems to be knowledgable on any area of science you care to mention!

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,Bagpuss
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 11:28 AM

Completely forgot the point I was going to make. If you want to know what neuroscience is really looking at in relation to God - look up the work of Michael Persinger and the temporal lobe.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Slag
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 11:36 AM

Law of V, Post hoc ergo proctor hoc.
Big Noggin, Little Noggin: Homo Sap creating God in his own image??
"I will give them strong delusion that they should believe a lie."
God IS and what you believe matters not one whit. What God believes (knows or rather determines) is that with which I am concerned .

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: BaldEagle2
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 12:27 PM

Bagpuss said "but any idea that talks of seperate bits of the brain which do not communicate well with eachother is pretty outmoded. I have never heard of any serious neuropsychology work that talks about big brain and little brain in this way."

On the contrary - some of it is very new.   The images I recently saw, that show big brain processing language as two sets of patterns, are less than two years old.   When a word is heard, a pattern of brain activity occurs in one part of the brain.   When the same word is spoken, an identical pattern occurs in a different part of the brain.   These patterns, and that they are a matched pair, take place in areas that have no direct links to the part of the brain that processes language.

It is only in the last three years has it become almost universally accepted by the medical profession that deja vu occurs when Little Brain drops the memory of arriving at a new place, and Big Brain has already stored the image from the arrival.    (Rather like the way that you are sometimes not able to remember what topic is under discussion: similar sort of skip, similar sort of reason, different outcome).

So you are right in a way, Bagpuss, that the theorising circa 1985-1990 largely went away through lack of empirical evidence to support the views hypothosised back then.   But new research has given those old horses a new lease of life.

And if you have ever heard anyone say that religious experiences may possibly be caused by a third sort of brain skip - I really, really would like to know the source.

Regards

BE2

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,Zebulon
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 12:55 PM

If everything was divine...

And it is, since God is everywhere and therefore everything is composed of the divine...

Where will a skeptical ego-mind find the divine? Nowhere. Because all it will see is ordinary stuff...more proof that at least suggests to it that God doesn't exist, since the millions and millions of separate things it sees appear to be ordinary, explicable in normal terms, and not divine in any way.

Looking for proof of something extraordinary which is somehow beyond all that, the skeptical ego-mind will not find it, therefore will conclude that the silly "God" it or someone else concocted does not exist.

Its error is in assuming that God is extraordinary and is separate from ordinary things. God is not separate from ordinary things, because they are all parts of God extending Itself. God is the summation of all things...all observable things, all phenomena, all forms of energy, time itself, all dimensions, all concepts.

The skeptical ego-mind is like a Don Quixote, running around finding primitive religious windmills (anthropomorphic concepts of a remote, man-like, ruling God) to tilt against. A futile endeavour. A case of the blind battling against its own mirror-image doppelganger.

To be aware of God is to realize intimately that all is divine, all things are divine, that all is formed and informed by the divine, and to act accordingly...which is to say that one would act with great love, great respect, and a great sense of intimate connection to all other beings, and to the planet itself, and to the cosmos, since all are part of one single great Being extending itself into manifestation.

Is there something else beyond all that? Something even outside of it? Well, perhaps. ;-) But if so, it is completely beyond our ability to express it or experience it, and it is beyond the perameters of this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Bagpuss
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:03 PM

You keep talking of all this research, but don't give any specifics of who is doing the research or where it is published. Do you have any references?

And yes, it is well known that different parts of the brain are used in different tasks, but the whole of the brain is interconnected. Some areas are not strongly and directly linked to others, but they are certainly linked well enough for information from any one part of the brain to be synthesised with any other part.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Bagpuss
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:11 PM

Searching Google Scholar for "Big Brain Little Brain" only came up with 2 types of reference - one talking about the enteric nervous system and the other talking about a textbook nickname brain and its edited version nicknames little brain. If there has been all this research, it doesn't use the terms you use.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Bagpuss
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:15 PM

Oh, a third one, I forgot - references to the cerebrum (big brain) and cerebellum (little brain), which don't seem to be what you are talking about in your first post. The cerebellumj is concerned with low level functions such as balance and co-ordination. The cerebrum is the largest part of the brain which does all the higher level stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,Zebulon
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:27 PM

The brain is the physical instrument that conveys the program to the rest of the body, and it is designed to do that effectively. It's like a radio. It is not the source of the intelligence that passes through it, it's the transmitter of that intelligence to rest of the nervous system.

It is natural that various parts of the brain correspond to the levels of consciousness that moulded them.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 06:00 PM

Zebulon

"If everything was divine...

And it is, since God is everywhere and therefore everything is composed of the divine..."

As was said before
"the Law of Fives is as a symbol for the observation of reality changing that which is being observed in the observer's mind. Just as how when one looks for fives in reality, one finds them, so will one find conspiracies, ways to determine when the apocalypse will come, and so on and so forth when one decides to look for them. It cannot be wrong, because it proves itself reflexively when looked at through this lens."

If you believe in a God - you will find evidence - that is a Matter of Faith.

If you believe in no such thing, you will find evidence that all is as a result of natural processes. Some people try to call that Science - but Science too, is a Matter of Faith.

If you do not believe that everything has to be squeezed into mutually exclusive dichotomies, such as the two above, you may have other ideas - that too is a Matter of Faith.

It is easy for me to identify that you seem to be in one of the 2 parts of the 'Religion Dichotomy' above.

That's not any 'attack', just an observation of what you clearly publicly express your beliefs to be - also a Matter of Your Faith.

The World has gone thru many generations of many different 'tribes' of exclusive dichotomous intolerant believers insisting that the whole world must conform to their specific one sided view, or die.

It is still happening. It probably always will, because that seems to be how the human brain works. Possibly the only way to stop that is to eleminate from the gene pool any who will not accept the only real true view, that those rigidly locked in narrow mental views are detrimental to the human race...


Oh...

Oh Dear, now look where Logic has ended us up...

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,Zebulon
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 07:33 PM

You are so right, Foolestroupe. ;-) Everyone finds evidence of what they already believe, because that's the evidence they're looking for...and it's the evidence they take notice of. Everyone is receptive to what they like, and what they already have faith in. They are not receptive to what they dislike or have no faith in, and faith always plays a big part in how they interpret life around them.

And that's just fine with me. I have no requirement that others should believe as I do. I think a variety of beliefs is refreshing and quite desirable.

Find me a man with no beliefs...and no faith...and I'll find you a man who is either in a coma...or dead. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Bee
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 07:57 PM

I'm not so sure 'everyone is receptive to what they like' necessarily translates to choosing a faith. I would certainly like to believe (have faith) many things. I would like to believe in reincarnation, but I do not. I would like to believe in an afterlife, but I do not.
I can't even say I have faith that such things aren't possible. I always maintain a little hope that there's a grain of reality embedded in the massive heap of assorted theisms and spiritualities the world has accumulated. It just seems unlikely to me, which I think hardly constitutes an expression of faith, for or against.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 08:03 PM

Me and the Wes Ginny Slide Rule were jus' talkin' about this the other day...

Yeah, it kinda thinks that I ain't got niether a big 'er little brain at times but what's a danged piece of wood know???

But really, it ain't about a brains ability to process information as it for a brain to convert that information into knowledge and, in turn, covert that knowledge into wisdom...

The Wes Ginny Slide Rule is real good at the first two but not capable of reaching the 3rd step but to it's credit, it freely admits that...

Now, yeah, academics will come up with all kinds of models for information>knowldge>wisdom formation but bottom line, ain't no graphs or pictures taht can fully explain how people get wiser, or in folks like George Bush, don't get wiser...

It's my own ****belief*** (yeah, as in Faith, you know, the other "f wod"...) that folks have an amazing ability to develope wisdom but the societial prssures to be successfull and prosperous satand in the way of this wisdom developing because wisdom ain't about makin' a buck or holding power over another person or country...

So, yeah, there may be a big brain, or whatever one wants to call it, but bottom line, it takes a lot less brain to develope it...

That's this ol' hillbilly's take on the subject...

Peace,

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,Zebulon
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 08:33 PM

"I'm not so sure 'everyone is receptive to what they like' necessarily translates to choosing a faith." - Bee

Well, it may. But when I said that everyone has faith...I didn't necessarily mean that they subscribe to what you would term "a faith" in the sense of an organized religion. I merely mean that there are a whole bunch of things they may or may not have faith in...(like: money, good looks, sex appeal, intimidation, the government, the military, romantic love, marriage, popularity, the stock market, their parents, the Encyclopedia Brittanica, their priest, their rabbi, their Imam, their "good luck", science, Robert's Rules of Order, logic, the Shriners, the Republican or Democratic parties, the strength of their own right arm, etc...ad infinitum...).......and those things that they have the most faith in will have a very powerful effect on how they see and interpret life and what they believe and don't believe.

It's all religious, in a sense...or it isn't. ;-) Depends on how you look at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Bee
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 10:22 PM

In which case, it would seem not to matter, either way. Unless you think there is a different end result, or ongoing different effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 10:23 PM

I had a supervisor at work who had been in the same job for 20 years.

Other staff said to me that there was a big difference between 20 years experience in the one job, and one year's experience 20 times...

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,Zebulon
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 11:59 PM

Well, it matters only in this sense, Bee: Are your beliefs producing beneficial or harmful results for you and/or for others? To that extent, it definitely matters!

Other than that, it matters only if you think it matters and it doesn't if you don't (strictly from your point of view, I mean). Whether it matters to someone else is up to them, according to their point of view. But that's plainly obvious, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 06:05 AM

My big brain woke first this morning and the little brain just had to follow!

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 09:05 AM

I don't care how many brains I have, they all hurt now!!!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Slag
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 11:19 AM

Brains of the world---UNITE!

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:52 PM

From the thread list....

BS: donating organs after death
BS: Big Brain - Little Brain

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 Nov 06 - 06:29 PM

That looks like a good idea Fooles... I need a new brain, this one has been used!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 08:22 AM

Equal to your cerebral cortex in the number of neurons is a brain that was not discovered until recently.

It is in your abdomen and has its nexus at the solar plexus.
It is autonomic in nature but is respondisible for that unique gut feeling.

As usual you think I'm kidding but the truth is invariably stranger than fiction.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Bagpuss
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 09:53 AM

Donuel, that is the enteric nervous system that the original post mentioned in confusion. But it is not equal to the cerebral corex in the number of neurons. Some sources cite 100 million neurons, others up to a billion. I have found sources that put the number of neurons in the cortex at 10-20 billion.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Bee
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 12:42 PM

http://whyfiles.org/026fear/physio1.html

Simple description of enteric nervous system.

I've been a near-victim of it over-reacting to perceived threats on occasion. ;-O

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 12:48 PM

I have heard NIH scientists remark that the number of nerve cells in the abdomen is nearly equal to the number of grey brain cells.

Maybe they were going with their gut.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Bee
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 12:55 PM

Maybe the Royals have always been onto something - 'We' are an amalgam of critters, scads of different kinds of bacteria, including possibly the ancient captured bits in each cell, enteric 'brain', and the layered 'brains' within our skulls. Referring to this community as 'I' may be too simple, or too egotistical.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: bobad
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 12:57 PM

Kinda gives a whole new meaning to having your head up your ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: autolycus
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 06:07 PM

BaldEagle2. Can you give me the reference for 2000
bits of info being processed in 2 seconds?

I remember reading , in the sixties, that when 2
people meet, they exchange 2500 bits of information
in the first couple of seconds. When I passed that
story on to a psychology graduate friend, she gave
me a very wry look, amounting to 'nonsense'.

So I'm intrigued you've found something similar.

I would be grateful. Thanks.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: BaldEagle2
Date: 28 Nov 06 - 11:43 PM

autolycus

I picked up the 2,000 bits per second as the processing rate for little brain from a Discovery Channel program that presented a documentary on the latest FMRI imagery.

It is FMRI technology that has given the Big Brain/Little Brain theory new and substantial evidence to show that what is actually going on inside our minds.

I shall try to find the title of the documentary, for it will surely be available as a DVD.   And it could be a good Xmas present for your doubting psychology graduate.   :-)

Regards

BaldEagle2

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 03:52 AM

When meeting new people the brain does a rapid assessment of exterior features as well as body language and mannerisms but I have not been acquainted with the 2000 bits of info...However the brain must surely be capable of doing so.....Proof would be great but perhaps acceptance of your word will be enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 07:52 PM

big of ya, Georgiansilver, not requiring "proof"

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 09:28 PM

Boy, whatta bunch of tiny brains we got here workin' overtime here, eh? I see it is time for someone who can flippin' think with both flippin' brains to way in here and straiten all youse out on which is, like, which, eh?

Okay. So the BIG brain...that is the one you use when you are, like, makin' a dope deal and you are wayin' out the ounces and puttin' 'em in the baggies cos you, like, gotta make the other guy think he is gettin' a real DEAL when acshully you are rippin' him off BIGtime! And the BIG brain is the one you use when you make up a real good story for the flippin' cops about the car you are drivin' and why its ownership don't match yer name and the strange thing that it, like, got reported stolen must be just a big mistake! Know'm sayin'?

That's the big brain in action, man.

The little brain is important too, eh? REAL important! The little brain gives you a real good time becoz it is the one located in yer pants, eh? And it is the reason that chicks want you so bad. If yer cool, that is. Like me. That's the little brain. It gets put down by a lotta dumb people, but it is at least as important as the big brain becoz if you were missin' it you would be missin' a big part of what life is all about!!!

And that's all ya gotta know.

- Shane

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 04:28 AM

GUEST, when logic has it then truth assumes its following.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 07:03 AM

BDIBR - if you keep doing that to your big brain, your little brain ain't gonna be worth squat.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,Californiangold
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 01:15 PM

Georgiansilver, logic is just an organised way of going wrong with confidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,Omniscient Observer
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 01:31 PM

Bee? Big Brain? BB Brain? OK. Makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 01:37 PM

GUEST Californiagold. If that has proved true for you with regard to logic then you are to be pitied.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: GUEST,Cg
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 03:30 PM

It was an amusing comment, you pompous ass. Lighten up, would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 03:48 PM

I guess your capacity for misunderstanding is somewhat worse than mine...it was designed as a lighthearted comment in reply to you.
As for your name calling..I'll treat that with the contempt it deserves.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 03:50 PM

ps..take a look at the 'If I move to Canada' thread..it might be of benefit to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 05:43 PM

Now look here! I am Canadian, eh? This country is not an international dumping ground for idiots and malcontents. No sir. We have standards to maintain here. So just lay off, okay? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 06:42 PM

ROFLOL

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 08:08 AM

Yes Little Hawk, you have enough competition there already!

Subject: RE: BS: Big Brain - Little Brain
From: BaldEagle2
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 11:04 AM

This topic is being discussed elsewhere, but withing the wider framework of how personality develops in humans.   If our Big Brains work in the way they do as the sum of evolutionary processes on mankind, and our little brains work the way they do as as the sum of lifetime waking experiences, then a number of useful insights are given into how we really work.   

Alex recently published the following post on a different forum.   I copy it here (with his permission):

It seems to me that the Big Brain/little brain theory explains everything from excessive Puritanism to the other extreme, fascism and the holocaust.

Little Brain takes in feeds from outside like, normally languages, social order, attitudes and then, among its other functions, Big Brain processes and refines our attitudes to them.

Little children instinctively hit each other to protect their property and presumably this is a Big Brain natural protective response. Then parents, who Little Brain has fed to Big Brain are creatures of influence, tell children its wrong to hit others and you hurt them.

I assume Big Brain assesses this data and decides on its worth. The intelligent big brain assesses this information and makes a decision. Mommy is right and I have to find other ways of dealing with this OR Mommy is a killjoy and I love making little Johnny next door scream with pain so I'll carry on and take my chances.

Its about choice and that doesn't necessarily go the 'right' way. Some choices are evil but the evil is a chosen path.

Now on the other side of the coin I suspect Big Brain can malfunction or be idle so that when Little Brain feeds it an external factor it needs more information from the Little Brain in order to do anything. Is there a point where Mass Hypnosis a la Hitler can force Little Brain to overpower the filtering and decision making of Big Brain so that an alternative message can over power decency, reason and logic that you learned as a child?

Eg, (Hitler Message) Killing people is bad unless those people are Jews because they are a threat to us.

Enough Germans leapt on this bandwagon to suggest that a powerful message send via Little Brain can subordinate natural feelings learnt earlier about right and wrong.

Religious fanatics, acolytes of any extreme political creed etc who appear to receive info through the Little Brain portal and do nothing to refine it are those suffering from Brain 'skip'.