Definitive Versions

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 10:11 PM

You got that one right, bobad. Oddly though (and I can hear catspaw coughing up hairballs over in the corner) Bing (Der Bingle) did a great version of the song with the Cozy Cole Trio. Early in Bing's career, he could scat sing and swing with the best of them, before he trademarked the ba-ba-ba-boom mannerisms. He did several cuts with the Cozy Cole Trio, and Old Man River was the best. Not saying it equals Paul Robeson's. Almost like a different song. As different as the Marcels version of Blue Moon was to Dean Martin's.

I wonder how the Marcel's would sound, doing Old Man River? The Ravens did a pretty decent version..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: bobad
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 09:33 PM

Definitive, penultimate, preferred ???? I don't know, but what I do know is that Paul Robeson and "Ol' Man River" are inseparable in my music archive.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 08:25 PM

You Missed "Silver Threads Among The Gould," by the Glen Gould Orchestra.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: pdq
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 07:06 PM

Here ya go, Jerry Afew more 'difinitive versions' that you may have missed:



"It's No Puess" by The Four Taupes

"Lavender Blue" by the Dilly Dillies

"I Beige Your Pardon" by Pink Anderson

"Mauve It On Over" by Red Rector

"Yellow, Stranger" By Lime Disease

"Lemon Tree" by Blue Grass Boys

"Bowling Green" by by Willie McTeal

"Red Sails In The Sunset" by Blue Mitchell

"Black is the Color" by Less Brown

Brown's Ferry Blues by Tampa Red

Pink Cadillac by Bruce Springreen

Green Leaf Rag by Wally Rose

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 08:39 AM

Interesting comments, Jerry.

A quick web search reveals that Blue Moon (written by Rodgers & Hart) first saw the light of day in 1933, and was recorded by a host of people including Billie Holiday, Sinatra, Dean Martin and Tony Bennett. As such, it's a kind of easy listening standard.

But the Marcels' version was so very different from other versions that many people do indeed associate it with them primarily. So maybe this is an example where a song can have two 'lives' (in this case as an easy listening song and a doo-wop/pop song) and maybe there's a definitive version for each 'life'? (I can't say which of the other versions would be best for me, as I can't remember hearing them, although I must've heard many versions on the radio, etc., over the years.)

Again, though, it's all subjective.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: fat B****rd
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 08:23 AM

And a very,very fine thread it is too. Jerry. As a teenager in the UK I thought all songs were written by/for whoever had the version that I heard. Looking back, the two Ray Charles Modern Sounds in C & W albums and virtually all Elvis's stuff were cover versions of songs whose originators meant little or nothing (in the UK at least). After the Beatles etc covered various RnB/Soul songs and me and my "hipster" mates checked the record catalogues that a whole host of wonderful performers came to light.Bit threadrifty but I know what I mean.
As a fairly typical "hip"* teen the cover versions were no match whatsoever for the originals, which often turned out to be cover versions in the first place.
Isn't music wonderful.
* i.e. clever little shit.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 08:03 AM

Hey, Scrump: While the Marcels' version of Blue Moon is almost a joke, it may well be the definitive version. I have a wonderful recording of it by Matt Dennis that is a favorite of mine, in a more rational style but I don't know if I will ever be able to hear that song without that Bass introduction. I've become friends with a five man a capella doo wop group (I even lead a workshop: Church And Street Corner Harmonies) with the group and my gospel quartet) at NOMAD this year that was great fun.) Fans of doo wop would boo you off stage if you did any other arrangement of Blue Moon besides the Marcels'. That's a major difference in Oldies and old folk music.
People do feel a particular version of a song by a doo wop group is not only definitive, but that you HAVE to do it that way. I've been invited to play guitar with the group (goodbye a capella if it works out) and I will need to play in a style that supports the original recordings. For that kind of music, I could do it. My gospel quartet does several songs that in style could just as easily be doo wop, as black doo wop grew out of the black churches, and many of the groups recorded gospel, too.

I'm drifting off topic here for a minute.

But hey, It's my thread and I'll drift if I want to. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:11 AM

So, what is the definitive version of Blue Moon?

The Marcels?

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: pdq
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 01:11 PM

Jerry,

I was as interested in playing with fonts as in seriously discussing music. Please substitute "The Tennessee Waltz" for "You Belong To Me". I really respect Jo Stafford. She is one of the great techicians of American Pop music. Also, she was born in Coalinga, a tiny mining town in the bleak foothills just east of California's great Central Valley. 100+ degrees in the summer, single digit rainfall per year and no 'culture' as defined by Easterners. She has class and 'done good'.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 01:00 PM

You may be right, KB. I liked their version a lot, too. Many of the older pop songs were re-done, and I liked both versions: often the newer version better. Smoke Gets In You Eyes by the Platters would be my favorite version, over earlier ones. The Hilltoppers, who are mostly ignored in the oldies collections, recorded several old songs I liked better than the originals. P.S. I love you is the best version I've heard, and I liked the Ink Spots songs they did, like If I Didn't Care. I couldn't pick a "definitive" version on some of those songs, because the interpretations were so different, and in their own way, each version was "definitive" for that style.

So, what is the definitive version of Blue Moon? :-)

Jeryy

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:42 PM

The Duprees "You Belong To Me" is the only version I remember (I think I may have heard others but they didn't make much of an impression at the time) and have always liked it rather a lot. Even if I heard the others now I wonder how well I would like them. This may be a case of the first version being your 'definitive' since in my brain that is how the song is supposed to sound.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:32 PM

Hey, pdq:

I couldn't understand why I wouldn't be familiar with Patti Page's version of You Belong To Me. I had Jo Stafford's version and new the song by heart. I just checked my Joel Whitburn Pop Memories book, and this is the information he gives, compiled from the Billboard charts:

Jo Stafford's version of You Belong To Me was number 1 for 12 weeks
and was in the top 40 for 25 weeks. It sold close to 2 million
copies.

Patti Page's version was #4 for one week and was in the top 40 for
17 weeks.

What source did you use for your ratings?

Just a friendly question...

Jerry

p.s.: In 1962, The Duprees charted a high of number 7 with their recording of the same song and their recording was in the top 40 for 9 weeks.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:16 AM

"Guantanamera - Pete Seeger (who else)"

Trini Lopez.

Or Pérez Prado.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: pdq
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:44 AM

Guantanamera - Pete Seeger (who else)[?]

The Pozo Seco Singers (with Don Williams).

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:17 AM

Mea Culpa, DaveA.

My only excuse is I meant it was superior to the original dry studio version on the "Fogarty's Cove" album.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Scrump
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:17 AM

Guantanamera - Pete Seeger (who else)

The Sandpipers?

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: DaveA
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:13 AM

Cluin,

You have it to rights with that nomination, except that you omitted to include Stan's marvellous 'Mary Ellen Carter" in the same breath.

A few that resonate personally with me:

Kumbaya - Joan Baez
Mr Tamborine Man - Mike McCellan (a superb Aussie songwriter who does this as his party piece)
In The Depths of the Temple - Jussi Bjoerling & Robert Merrill
Guantanamera - Pete Seeger (who else)

Grins

Dave

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:49 AM

The live version of "Barrett's Privateers" from Stan's Between the Breaks album.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: pdq
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 11:52 AM

Jerry,

You may be right. That is a tough call so neither is 'definitive', although Patti Page's version made it to #3 on the Pop charts, higher than Jo Stafford's version. BTW, Patti Page (79) and Jo Stafford (89) are still with us!

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Scrump
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 11:38 AM

Some contributors to this thread (including Jerry) have said that a version might be so good that you could never imagine anyone doing it better. I know what they mean, but I would prefer to keep an open mind, and optimistically hope that, yes, someone might even do a better version in future - why not? Standards are meant to be set, aimed at, and surpassed :-)

Anyway, I don't let the fact that people have already done better versions of songs than I can, stop me doing them ;-)

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 11:33 AM

Hey, pdq:

Good choices, although I'll take Jo Stafford's version of You Belong To Me. I don't ever remember hearing Patti Page do it. I'll also take the Four Tunes version of Marie. It's a classic rhythm and blues jump tune version.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: pdq
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 11:29 AM

Here are some definitive versions of some Pop songs, most of which have already been named:

"White Christmas" ~ Bing Crosby

"Over The Rainbow" ~ Judy Garland

"Mona Lisa" and "Nature Boy" ~ Nat Cole

"Moon River" ~ Andy Williams

"Marie" ~ Tommy Dorsey Orchestra

"The Gypsy" ~ The Ink Spots

"You Belong To Me" ~ Patty Page

"Begin The Beguine" ~ Artie Shaw Orchestra

"Kiss Of Fire" ~ Georgia Gibbs

"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" ~ Gene Autry

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:15 AM

"Cod Liver Oil and the Orange Juice" - Hamish Imlach
"Black is the Colour" - Hamish Imlach

I don't think I could ever imagine any female artist singing "And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda" convincingly (First line - When I was a young man I carried a pack)

As to Arthur McBride - there is a guy from Derry, Seamus "Skirm" Curley, fantastic musician with an even better voice, who is based in Manchester now, who sings this and puts some real guts behind it, knocks spots of Brady's rendering of the song. I don't believe he has recorded it unfortunately.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:14 AM

Hey, Tootler:

Yeah, I agree with Scrump, too. I, and others have acknowledged that I am not using "definitive" in the strict dictionary definition. Of course, I could have titled the thread "Songs that I personally think are the best versions that I in my limited experience prefer the most of all the ones I've heard, although I am certainly not implying that they are definitive in any objective way."

I think that's more than 25 words.

Now that we are all in agreement that the word definitive is being used only in a "definitive for me," but not in the dictionary definition (I have a dictionary, too) Howzabout a recording or version in the spirit of the thread? I've really enjoyed reading the response of so many Catters. They brought back good recordings I hadn't thought about recently, and raised my curiosity about others.
That's why I started the thread.

Thanks for all the responses..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:56 AM

It got a mention earlier, spotted it as I scrolled down to add my tuppence-worth.

Canadee-I-O - Nic Jones... for me, there'll not be a better acoustic version! - Duncan

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Tootler
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 12:17 PM

I agree with Scrump. To me the word "definitive" implies a version which sets the standard - in the sense of of correctness rather than a standard of excellence.

The word seems to be being misused in this thread and as definitive implies a correct version then there is no such thing for a traditional song as there is no such thing as a correct or wrong version.

Even with pop songs, while the original recording may be considered definitive, in fact I don't think it is as others who may record the song will make different arrangements.

I just checked my dictionary and the first three meanings given for definitive are;

1. serving to decide or settle finally
2. most reliable or authoritative.
3. serving to define or outline.

The other meanings given are specialist ones, though in the spirit of the three above. I don't think definitive is being used in any of these senses in this thread.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Scrump
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 07:27 AM

I think whether a version of a song is 'definitive' or not is entirely subjective, so agreement can never be reached. There may be people who think (say) Elvis Presley's version of White Christmas is the definitive one. There could even be a large of people who think so, but they are probably outnumbered by those who would say Bing Crosby's is the definitve one. None of them are wrong, because it's every individual's call. Basically a 'definitive' version of a song is the one an individual thinks is the 'best' one.

So, I'm not really sure what we are debating here?

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 12:03 PM

I think with a folk song a definitive version might be the time we heard someone sing a song we thought we knew, in a way that woke us up to what the song was actually about - and that might be someone well known, on a record or in a broadcast, or in a concert, but it might just as well be someone no one has ever heard of, in some singaround.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 11:52 AM

Yeah, Kevin: There's definitely some truth to Dick's comments, and it's well worth refreshing. With folk songs, I think it may be a little more fifty-fifty. I've heard borring versions of great folk songs, and they took so much away from the song that it was hard to listen to. Any song, folk or otherwise is dependent upon interpretation. If someone can come up with a song that nobody could possibly ruin, I bet someone else could come up with an example of someone who did.

There are umpty-million folk songs that I think have a "definitive" version:

Here are a few: Clarence Ashley's The Cuckoo
                  Mississippi John Hurt's John Henry's Hammer
                  Peg Leg Howell's Coal Man Blues
                  The Carter Family's (Pick your top fifty)
                  Emry Arthur's Man Of Constant Sorrow
                  Bozie Sturdevant's Ain't No Grave Can Hold Me Down

I could go on until the cows come home. Maybe even a few minutes after that. Maybe people are hesitant to mention folk songs in here because we all DO value the songs, and are reluctant to pick a "definitive" version. Someone already expressed discomfort the term because it could be taken to mean that no one else should do the song. That's completely contrary to folk music, in my mind.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 10:56 AM

I think dick greenhaus's comment is well worth refreshing:

Amazing how few folk songs were mentioned. Could it be that, in folk song, the singer is secondary to the song?

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Andrez
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 06:03 AM

Eva Cassidys version of Over the Rainbow trumps all for me!

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 06:35 AM

Re The Beatles, I agree that most of their versions of their own songs would be called the definitive versions. One exception I can think of is where the Rolling Stones' version of I Wanna Be Your Man (45 rpm single) was widely considered at the time to be better than the Beatles' own version sung by Ringo on their 2nd LP. I guess that might make the Stones' version 'definitive', but it's pretty much a throwaway song anyway, IMO (I believe they gave it to the Stones and probably put their own version on the LP as a filler).

Some people might consider Joe Cocker's no. 1 hit version of With A Little Help From My Friends better than the Beatles' version (again sung by Ringo - I'm not having a go at him, honest!) notwithstanding it was on their ground-breaking Sgt Pepper album.

But it's all subjective, innit.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 12:54 AM

Syd Barrett's Version of Pink Floyd was pretty definitive.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 11:40 PM

No Jerry I don't.....Thank god.   The only thing I ever thought Bing was definitive at was being an asshole of the first magnitude.....what a fuckin' tool.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 10:07 PM

Richie Havens doing Here Comes The Sun compares favorably (for me) with the Beatles. Not many Beatles songs that have been done anywhere as well as their versions. I suppose it's only a matter of time before Little Hawk cites a recording of a Beatles Song as done by Wilhelm Shatner as being definitive. Like Migraine headaches are definitive. Anyone remember Bing Crosby gamely trying to do Hey Jude?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 08:52 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:59 PM

I mentioned Judy Garland's Over the Rainbow, but I didn't put in the link. Here it is From the film, of course.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:25 PM

Bob and Ron.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 02:00 PM

which copper family, the present ones or Bob And Ron

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 01:46 PM

McPeakes - Wild Mountain Thyme
Copper Family - their whole repertoire.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 12:24 PM

Tony Rose, on Boots of spanish leather,nic jones, canadeeio,[thats something else] as is, the jukebox as she turned[ nic jones].MARTIN CARTHY thornymore woods.lou killen, all things are quite silent.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:01 AM

Which would be the "original" original, since he "originated" both songs?

Well, if an artist re-records their own song, that does complicate things. I was just trying to distinguish between what I called the "original" version, meaning that by the song's writer (but not necessarily - see below), and a "definitive" version, which might be by somebody else. I can't for the moment think of a proper real-life example, but perhaps Irving Berlin recorded "White Christmas" before Bing Crosby (I don't know whether he did or not, but let's assume he did for the purpose of this discussion) - then Berlin's version is the original, but in the eyes of many, Bing Crosby's is the definitive version, i.e. the one that people first think of when they hear the song title.

Now let's say Crosby recorded the song twice. One of those would be the definitive version (assuming you think it is anyway!) and the other would not be, because it's just another recording by the same artist (e.g. a live recording from a TV show or similar).

Sometimes a song is recorded by another artist before the writer records it him/herself. In that case it's possible for the "original" version to be by someone other than the writer, because it was recorded by the other artist first. Again I can't think of a real example for the present, but I'm sure there must be some. Well, maybe I can - I remember Ellie Greenwich wrote many hits in the 1960s with Jeff Barry, Phil Spector, etc., and many people would say that the original hit versions (by the likes of the Ronettes, the Crystals, Shangri-Las, Ike & Tina Turner, and many more) were both the 'definitive' and 'original' versions. Ellie recorded many of these herself on a 1970s (IIRC) album. Her own versions would probably not be called either the 'original' or 'definitive' versions by many people (but 'definitive' is definitely subjective; 'original' isn't if you accept my definition - I said 'if'!)

I have never heard it, but some friends told me that in the sixties, the Fuggs used to sing "Hey, Hey We're The Fuggs" and it was definitely better than the Monkies' version

Ah, that makes it a different song! ;-)

OK then, here's a festive one: "Wombling Merry Christmas" - definitive version is that by The Wombles, IMO :-)

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:31 PM

"Hound Dog" by Elvis, or Big Mama Thornton?

I know who it makes more sense coming from.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:29 PM

Hey, KB:

That's an interesting question about Nat King Cole's Christmas song.
I don't think I have a trio version of it, although I have a ton of his trio recordings. You've got me wondering. I guess that I'll have to pull them out and see if I have it.

I also think that the first version of the song (even if it is far from the original) often ends up being the one we like most. I will forever love Lonnie Donnegan's Rock Island Line. On the whole, I think that I like Leadbelly's body of work better than Lonnie's (not that it makes any sense comparing them.) But, I must admit that I was very disappointed when I heard Leadbelly's recording of Rock Island Line.

Another great "definitive" version of a song, for me, is Chuck Miller's House of Blue Lights. This was mentioned in another thread, and someone else thought that Ella Mae Morse's version was the definitive one (I don't think they'd heard Chuck Miller's. Ella
Mae's Blacksmith Blues could probably never be improved upon, for my ears, but I don't think her version of House Of Blue Lights can touch Chuck Miller's.

And really, fellas.. and ladies! all that "definitive" means in my original question is which version is definitive for YOU. There are no absolutes when it comes to music. Just personal preferences...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:16 PM

If you do say so yourself.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: GUEST,Honky Tonk
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:14 PM

The Pogues 'And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda' (The dreaded Tabor's dirge of a version makes me want to kick cats)

Any of The Byrds' Dylan covers

Gordon Lightfoot's 'First Time Ever I Saw Your Face'

Kansas' 'Eleanor Rigby'

Not just my 'preferred versions' but definitive!

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:09 PM

Amazing how few folk songs were mentioned. Could it be that, in folk song, the singer is secondary to the song?

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:05 PM

Scrump: I have never heard it, but some friends told me that in the sixties, the Fuggs used to sing "Hey, Hey We're The Fuggs" and it was definitely better than the Monkies' version.

catspaw: I haven't heard Sandy's version of When You & I Were Young Maggie, but it would have to be very good to top Tom Rush's version. This is a song that doesn't have a definitive version in my opinion. I sounds great as a ballad, ala Tom Rush or as a banjo breakdown as many bluegrass bands have done it. I love this verse:

They say we are aged and grey, Maggie,
As spray by the white breakers flung.
To me you're as fair as you were, Maggie,
When you and I were young.

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:38 PM

I prefer Ramblin' Jack Elliott's take on "Me and Billy the Kid" over the original Joe Ely (or anybody else's cover, for that matter). It's a great lyrical story-song and that's how Jack treats it, really selling it .

It doesn't hurt that Peter Rowan is helping him out on it either...

Subject: RE: Definitive Versions
From: freightdawg
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 03:17 PM

Hmmm,

I like Jerry's question, and especially McGrath's erudite comments.

But even "original" has its problems. John Denver's first original recording of "Rocky Mountain High" is noticeably slower and more melancholy than a recording I have closer to his death, which is zippier and more upbeat. Conversely, I have an early recording of "I Guess He'd Rather Be In Colorado" which is flat and unremarkable. Yet, many years later he recorded a version that is full of emotion and much more expressive. Which would be the "original" original, since he "originated" both songs?

For me, (for better or worse) definitive also happens to be "that which I heard first or the most frequently." Ergo, PP&M singing "Blowin in the Wind" is definitive, as is the Kingston Trio singing "Tom Dooley" and "The Sloop John B." I've heard others, some predating said covers, and somehow they just don't sound "right" to my ears.

Still, Bing's "White Christmas" cannot be matched. Nor can Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful World". And I also have to mention "The Little Drummer Boy" as performed by the Vienna Boys Choir. Something about boys voices telling the story about a little boy just fits the song more naturally than Celine Dion (or any redneck cowboy, fer cryin' in the grog).

Freightdawg