Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 05:03 AM

I don't particularly enjoy driving, although it can be pleasant in certain circumstances. Mostly, though, I need my car to get around, not just to gigs but for other purposes.

People need their cars because the government (not just this one, but they are just as bad as their Tory predecessors) have been continually creating an economic climate whereby it's no longer considered important to provide local facilities. Schools, police stations and hospitals have been and are still being closed. Town centre shops are being replaced by out of town retail parks. The goods and food sold in these places is often flown from thousands of miles away, or trucked hundreds of miles along our roads. Many people have to travel long distances to work - the days when people lived near the factory or mill are mostly gone.

All this increases people's dependency on their cars, because in most cases (outside of cities) public transport is inadequate.

I believe what we as a society should be trying to do is to get back to a local economy: food produced locally by local farmers, local hospitals, schools, shops, etc. Doing this would also help create local jobs. The intention should be to reduce peoples' need to travel.

Instead of trying to tax 'motorists' (read: ordinary people trying to go about their legitimate daily business), they should be introducing a mileage tax on food, drink, and other goods.

Then it will become more attractive, for example, for the supermarkets to source fruit, veg and meat locally instead of shipping it hundreds or even thousands of miles. Breweries such as Greene King would find it less attractive to take over and close down other breweries, and ship tankers full of beer (95% water) hundreds of miles. Local industries could start up again to supply goods to local markets.

More hospitals, police stations and schools should be opened. Yes, these will cost us, but they will also create jobs locally, and reduce the number of people on the roads.

So I'm opposed to the proposed mileage tax on drivers, because I think there are better things the government can do.

And, as I've said before, I don't think the government's main motivation in proposing this tax is to benefit the environment (that's what they say, but when did you take anything this or any previous government says at face value?). It has more to do with this government's obsession with controlling people's everyday lives - the in-car GPS/mileage meters would allow them to know exactly where you are at all times. And of course there would be all that lovely extra tax for Mr Brown to squander on more ill-conceived schemes (he must be salivating at the thought).

No doubt there are objections to some of the above, but maybe it will open up further discussions.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:13 AM

I haven't signed. I don't use my car much and I live in a rural area and I don't travel in rushhour and I hardly ever use the motorways and I do not work and I don't get anything from the job centre becuase I haven't signed on.

So why should I have to pay.

I just hope I don't get hit with a bill for what other people use.

As far as tracking is concerned, that doesn't bother me, as I have nothing to hide.

I think some of you are voting against it without really understanding the full impact.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Lynn W
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 06:44 PM

I have looked for the other two threads to "chase the links" but cannot immediately see them - this article (today's front page Sunday Post)seems to suggest that the claims in the chain email are not true -
http://www.dcthomson.co.uk/mags/post/news1.htm
Sorry, have forgotten how to do blue clicky!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 05:57 AM

I've contributed to the other 2 threads and I have signed. I'm trying to chase the links so that I fully understand what it's all about. Richard is right about the being lied to.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: My guru always said
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 05:21 AM

Thanks for refreshing this Richard, and for trying to keep it on track.

It really is a serious subject here in the UK and just another example of someone having what they think is a good plan which can create all sorts of problems in peoples lives by becoming legislation. Please UK Catters, have a think about this and what it could do to our way of life and sign the petition here if you agree, deadline by 20th February!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 03:32 AM

Yes, all very well being witty, but the posters on the other two threads are ignoring the facts. The petition is right about what the government is proposing, and the facts can be found by chasing the links here. So the government statements this weekend are not accurate. We are being lied to by our "leaders" again.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 04:53 PM

"A bit of advice mate, GET YOUR SELF A LIFE."

I have one. It's a life for my kids and grandkids that I'm concerned about, and wankers like you take away their future.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 04:41 PM

After all Big Phil, what have our grandchildren never done for us? Why should we worry what kind of world we leave to them? Sod the little bleeders...

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 12:43 PM

Refresh so all three threads about the propsed mileage charge adn petition are on screen....

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 06:19 AM

Depends on how big your telly is!

Yes, but you'd need a bloody big telly (with over 6ft tall screen) to be taller than the real life bloke.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: My guru always said
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 05:28 AM

This has been in the news again recently, here's the On-Line Petition!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Big Phil
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:50 AM

a

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Big Phil
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:31 PM

melodeonboy,
Not a troll mate, or a caveman just a regular chap who has worked bloody hard for the last 42 years and has now grown fed up with this namby pamby greeny tree loving set of clowns who now have the audacity to try to tell me what motor car I may or may not drive.
Try to get it into your greeny loving head that whatever we do here in the UK will make not one iota of difference to the worlds so called polloution problems, FACT.
I have an idea, you go about your greeny tree hugging planet saving route, I will go mine, no problem.
What if I tried to stop you wearing your plastic sandles, what if I tried to stop you hugging trees, what if I tried to stop you living life as you see the norm, YOU would be PISSED off, just as I am with you and your lot of uneducated clowns trying to tell me how to live my life. A bit of advice mate, GET YOUR SELF A LIFE.
4 X 4 FOREVER, the larger and heavier and more powerfull the better.
Yours in diesel fumes,
Phil*

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:06 PM

Depends on how big your telly is!
G

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:06 PM

Yeah, he's only about a foot tall on the telly, I've measured him on there :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 07:35 AM

Ive met jeremy clarkson, hes taller than on the telly, hes about 6 feet tall in real life.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 07:34 AM

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 07:07 AM

I disagree - I think there was a fair amount of sense in there. A rebellion against the mileage charge (a la poll tax) seems a good idea to me. It might be what is needed to get rid of this government that seems to have completely lost touch with the electorate.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:18 AM

Mmmmm..... 99% anger and vitriol and 1% common sense and consideration for anyone else.

Hardly surprising.

Or is it just trolling time?

Caveman or troll? You choose, readers!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Big Phil
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 08:50 PM

A message to all you green tree hugging wazaks out there. I drive a
4 x 4 and am proud to, 3.2 litres of wonderful diesel power, will pull up to 3 tons, will not get stuck in 1 inch of snow, nice and high driving position so you can see over the hedges as you travel, no problem in muddy fields, Asda car parks or any car park come to think, in the event of an accident, stuff you greenies on your push bikes, i'm safe in my huge 4 x 4 isnt life grand........
Now as the UK produces 2% of the worlds polution, with the USA, China and india producing almost 80%, come on you greeny wazaks and give me a reason for giving up my 4 x 4. You green clowns out there must realise times have moved on, folk like their own transport, they like door to door travel, they do not like standing in the rain, snow, fog, and wind waiting for so called public transport. Remember [judge me in 5 years I will sort out public transport] clown Prescott, well done mate you made it a damn site bloody worse..
The best thing we can do about the £1.50 per mile road tax is REBELL remember the poll tax in Scotland, did not last two lond did it..
So in conclusion, for my green tree hugging, world saving, sandal wearing clowns, stick to your walking, public transport or beaming round the place. [beam me up Scoty]as you live on a different planet to me.........STUFF YOU ALL..... 4 X 4 FOREVER.......

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 06:39 PM

...and now, to make their appearance possible, the musicians must add an extra charge onto the fee they must get from the festival. That will make the festival stop hiring anyone who isn't a huge draw. Those musicians will not be able to secure enough of the piddling little gigs they need to make music a viable way to provide sustenance for themselves and theirs. Indeed, they already are living in their cars on the gigging road 365 days a year.

This means the end of all of it, not just the festivals, does it not?

Art

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Grab
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 04:56 PM

Chris, you wouldn't happen to live in Cambridge, would you? And know a couple of blokes called Phil and Steve? (Just that I know a Chris with an ancient Landie, so it seemed a bit of a coincidence... :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 08:19 PM

100

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:45 PM

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand the intended link between the last two posts, i.e. "this government" and "socialism".

By the way, Scrump, that's a valid point you make about security of instruments at festivals. I'm also much more concerned about leaving my instruments in the tent than in the car.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:03 PM

How soon the faithfull discover that socialism is the enemy of personal freedom!
G.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:02 PM

Things being massivley unpopular don't stop the Goverment doing them, it simply stops them mentioning it in any manifesto.

See Iraq or ID cards as proof. Or Network rail, or the Poll tax. The current lot are no worse in this respect than any other...

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:03 AM

Also, I forgot to add, when camping the car provides a bit more security than just leaving stuff in a tent, so without that I would probably feel obliged to carry a lot of stuff around that I would normally leave in the locked boot (trunk).

Yes, I know all folkies are honest! :-)

But thefts from tents are not unknown (and I know cars are not that secure, but I still feel happier with stuff locked out of sight in there, than just left lying around in a tent).

Just another reason to consider when weighing up the car v public transport options.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 08:36 AM

We camp at most of the festivals we go to, so we have a tent plus all the camping gear (inflatable beds, sleeping bags, stove, cutlery/plates etc., lights,...), then there are the instruments (two guitars would be the minimum), the song/music folders, and other assorted bits and pieces, and clothing, footwear,...

I can't see it would be easy to take that lot by public transport and would probably have to give up going to many festivals if the government made it too difficult or expensive to travel by car. I would probably just have to cut down on the number of festivals I go to, and cough up the mileage charge for the rest.

Even if not camping, carrying a couple of guitars plus a bag with clothing, shoes, music etc. (assuming I could get it all in the same bag) would be difficult by train or bus. And cabs would be too expensive for anything other than short journeys.

But I find it difficult to believe that the government would be able to to get this proposal (mileage charge) agreed. It would be electoral suicide, in spite of what the green lobby might say.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 07:15 AM

No, don't make any untoward assumptions, Jack!

I thought Giok's question related to transport costs extra to the general running costs which the driver would pay anyway whether he went to festivals or not, i.e. primarily fuel. Surely this is the focus of what's under discussion. With the possible exception of performers, those who drive to festivals already own their cars for other reasons, so the overheads would be paid anyway whether they went by car or other means.

But if you really want to know:

My car cost £650 about 18 months ago and is probably still worth nearly that, so depreciation is minimal.

I pay something in the region of £250 p.a. in insurance.

Maintenance costs have, thankfully, been quite low (by luck more than judgement!).

I don't usually pay for parking at festivals. You'd have to pay at Rochester, which I've already pointed out. If you mean parking at home: no, I don't pay for it. If I intend to spend a long time in any of the nearby towns, I generally travel by public transport, so I don't spend a lot on parking. In Sittingbourne it's free for 20 minute stays or 30p if I want to stay for half an hour.

As for your last sentence: in my case, fuel is more than a very small part of my motoring costs; it's a significant part.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 06:40 AM

melodeonboy, are we to assume you got your car free, it doesn't depreciate, it costs nothing to insure, it never needs maintenance and you have an unlimited supply of free parking spaces?

Fuel is a very small part of most people's car costs.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 06:40 AM

If you go by publc transport, the tendency is to drink more beer, which increases teh cost...

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 05:17 AM

Good question, Giok.

BROADSTAIRS:

Probably camping for a few days. For this I'll take the car with instruments and tent and assorted clothes/junk etc.

For extra days as a "day visitor", I'll probably take the train, with or without melodeon.

Cost by car: £8 - £9 on fuel.
Cost by train: (With Network Railcard): £10 (minimum charge) on weekdays, £7 - £8 at the weekend (+possible bus fare to the station, depending on weather).


TENTERDEN:

Last year I went by car as the camp site was out of town. This year I only had time to go for the day. As the camp site is back in the town now, I may go by bus next year.

Cost by car: £8 on fuel
Cost by bus: (Two "Rover tickets"): About £11

OXFORD:

I went by train last year. As a steward, I was given free indoor camping (therefore, no tent!).

Next year, I'll probably do the same. The bus services in Oxford appear, in my limited experience, to be very good. They are frequent and they run late.

Cost by car: £24 on fuel
Cost by train and bus: Unknown but definitely more than £24, even with railcard.


ROCHESTER SWEEPS:

I go by foot and train or bus and train.

Cost by car: £3 on fuel + parking
Cost by train: Approx £4 (plus £1.50 if including bus fare) + a possible £4 for taxi (depending on weather/level of inebriation etc.!).

TOWERSEY:

I went by car last year and may well do the same next year. I'm not sure of the public transport options. I didn't see any buses when I was there.

Cost by car: £20 in fuel
Cost by public transport: Unknown but definitely a lot more than £20.


If it were easier to get information on rail fares, I could have been a little more informative, but they are not easy to find.

My rough and ready calculations are based on one person travelling. It's likely that I'll be travelling with other people to at least some of the festivals; in theses cases, travelling by car would obviously be a lot cheaper.

I hope this has been of some help. I'll be interested to see other people's info.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:30 AM

You're getting less coherent there my little regular Mudcat troll!
G.
G.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 11:58 PM

What a delightful day - when RainBowI was destroyed - you can "F" only so long before the French awaken from their passive drowze and retaliate. The issue was "transport of spent nuclear fuel." Unable to coherantly define their issue - Green Pease waffles - one would think they share kindred wellings from the UK.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:47 PM

I don't think the absence of punters dragging along the level of kit Bill Sables has in his ceilidh band is going to break any festival. Less than one in a thousand will bring any piece of musical equipment heavier than an accordion case.

As I understand it, Martin Carthy has conducted his entire career by public transport.

PA kit can always be sourced locally. The only folks with a problem are those who play something very big and exotic, like a taiko band or a gamelan. Special cases that rare can be dealt with by special exemptions.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:09 PM

Who's going to what festivals next year, and how are they getting there. If by their own transport it would be interesting if they compared it with public transport costs as a feasability study.
Giok

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:03 PM

THe online petition against the invasive monitoring proposal is the pack leader there by a street.

Incidentally, I have been saying for about 10 years that when you take the energy costs of manufacture and disposal into account a land rover is quite environmentally friendly, but I don't need a 4x4 at the moment so I haven't got one. The idiots who use one to go no further off road than Sainsbury's car park are the on-road problem. Oh, and things like Porsche Cayennes which are about as much use off-road as a push bike to a pike.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 02:36 PM

I think this thread should be below the line - it's not really about music at all!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:51 AM

I won't be drawn on the prattishness or otherwise of Mr Clarkson, but do I deduce from melodeonboy's remark that he is in favour of the government's proposed mileage charges for motorists, and the intrusion into people's lives that will inevitably result, should this proposal go ahead?

I'm not in favour for the reasons stated above - the congestion on our roads could be reduced by:

- increasing fuel tax
- introducing road tolls for bottlenecks (e.g. M25 in peak times)
- raising the minimum driving age to 25
- introducing a maximum driving age, or at least a retest at (say) 80

Another factor is that the population is increasing due to immigration (legal or otherwise) - the government seems to overlook the fact that the pressure on roads is increasing in proportion to the population rising, just as it is on housing and other infrastructure (schools, hospitals, trains, water, etc.), especially in urban areas (and the south-east in particular). Maybe immigrants could have to wait a year before being allowed a licence, or something? Not sure of the implications of this - there's probably some EU agreement that would make this impossible.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:33 AM

Well pratts are not popular in my house, while Clarkson is.
Smart answers don't change facts you know!
G.¦¬]

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:30 AM

Since when have prattishness and popularity been mutually exclusive?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:19 AM

If Jeremy Clarkson is such a pratt, why is he so popular?
We like him in this house, and think he is a good and amusing presenter.Some of the stunts on Top Gear are a bit silly I admit, but it's mostly the BBC chasing good viewing figures and not Clarkson himself to blame for that.
It's like those people who balme Maggie Thatcher for all the ills of the 70s, she wasn't alone and unaided in her pursuit of private enterprise.
Giok

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:28 AM

you might want to look on greenpeace site and admire their fleet of ocean going ships! I suspect that I could run my land rover for a lot of years on the fuel consumption and exhaust emmissions that the fleet has on the environment. I support a lot of Greenpeace principles but not the hypocracy that condemns my car yet causes the significant damage to the environment by their fleet. It's a bit of do as I say not as I do.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:23 AM

I couldn't help noticing the marked similarity between contributor "eddie1" and TV presenter (and professional prat!), Jeremy Clarkson.

Are they in any way related?

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: eddie1
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 12:46 AM

Got this e-mail from my daughter.

Road tax - Government petition

This is the biggest move to tax & infringe on privacy ever proposed in this Country!

No apologies for sending this on...This may not interest you and if it doesn't please simply delete it - if you're a motorist, read on ...

It was stated on the news (27th November 2006) one of the reasons this proposal has been suggested was to raise money for possible road building and improvements to existing roads. It should be noted that of all the money currently collected by the DVLA for road fund licences, only 23% - 24% is actually spent on road building and improvements!

The government's proposal to introduce road pricing will mean you having to purchase a tracking device for your car and paying a monthly bill to use it.
The tracking device will cost about £200 and in a recent study by the BBC the lowest monthly bill was £28 for a rural florist and £194 for a delivery driver. A non working Mum who used the car to take the kids to school paid £86 in one month. On top of this massive increase in tax, you will be tracked. Somebody will know where you are at all times. They will also know how fast you have been going, so even if you accidentally creep over a speed limit you can expect an NIP with your monthly bill. If you care about our freedoms and stopping the constant bashing of the car driver, please sign
the petition on No 10's new website, sign up here

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax/ <
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax/

Even if you dont have a car please feel free to forward this e-mail on.

Eddie

Incidentally, at a festival I was asked by a Friends of the Earth member to sign a petition to ban 4x4s. I declined as I drove a 4x4. He then asked why I needed one and I replied, "To tow a dragster!" End of conversation.
My car is a Vauzhall Frontera, 2.5 litre diesel. On motorway journeys I get 42 mpg.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:05 AM

buy a Land Rover mine's done 100000+ miles and I expect to get at least 100000+ more. It's 11 years old.It is likely to last a lot longer than most modern, so called, 'environmentally sound' cars. It is also likely to have a better carbon footprint. The Prius, apparently, has a worse carbon footprint than a new Land Rover Discovery (something to do with electric motors and batteries) Things aren't, always, as obvious as they seem. I also think to many people rely on other people to tell them what to think about green issues and don't bother to check for themselves! People and organisations have their own agendas!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: danensis
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:46 PM

Can someone explain why growth is good and recession bad? It seems to me a lot of the people driving around our roads are going to try and sell things that people don't really need. I'd be happy to pay a few quid more for a car that lasts me twenty years instead of ten, or a fridge that lasts twenty years instead of ten.

Anyone remember the Lucas shop stewards proposals, where they wanted to stop making armaments and make kidney machines instead?

John

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 07:14 AM

I agree with the point about freedom of choice, and the futility of the UK doing anything in the absence of multilateral action from other countries.

But this is all about taxation and control, not the environment. This is what we have come to expect from the government - cynical exploitation of the electorate and increased intrusion into people's everyday lives.

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 06:40 AM

Land Rover are owned by Ford. No profit = no production =
no jobs for the few car workers left.This means more unemployed with increased taxes to pay them-not their fault but not only the environment to pay for but more unemployment benefit. Why should we, in UK, pay for the environment no one else seems to. We seem to take on board all the stupidity of the EU. Do any of the other members?
And I still resent the impact on choice. By the way I humbly apologise to all in the UK. I admit that I voted Labour all my voting life. I WONT DO IT AGAIN!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: UK Charge per mile = end of Fests?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 05:37 AM

What is it about Fluoride that really gets peoples goat? Don't you like your teeth. Besides, last time I checked we were all being heavily dosed by all this waste Oxygen the farmers are putting out.....

If 4x4s come without leather seats, the power steering is a bigger wheel, and climate control is replaced with smell of sheep, then they would be somewhat less fashionable. Does it show I've driven old land-rovers round farms?