BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?

Subject: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: NormanD
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 06:17 PM

Have you ever been ripped off on eBay? I've just been. Nothing major - about 13£ down the pan for a CD that I'll never receive. The trader is now no longer registered, so I can kiss the money goodbye.

It seems that I wasn't the only one burnt like this. I checked the trader's last month's feedbacks and there are dozens of negative, angry comments from punters with similar experiences to mine. The thing is, when I "bought it now" I just saw that the trader had around 28,000 feedbacks, which looks safe and legitimate. Clearly, something happened to the trader in the last few weeks for it to go belly-up.

But eBay continued to allow it to trade, despite a growing number of disputes and negative feedbacks.

It's almost impossible to write to eBay - you have to do it on one of their specified forms, that particularise a range of issues you can write and complain about.

I want to know: what eBay knew about this trader; when they knew it; what they did; and what will they now do to enable me and others to get some redress.

I've written to a few of the other ripped-off buyers suggesting that "we do something". There is some interest, but it looks like we're up against a monolith that couldn't care less about customer care or customer safety.

Now, I'm not writing just to have a moan here. I wonder if anyone could tell me:
1. Is there any anti-eBay pressure group around?
2. Is it worth contacting consumer advice journalists (I live in the UK), and if so, which ones?
3. Is there enough general disgruntlement to start a pressure group that might rattle eBay a bit (I'm thinking of the anti-Dixons site).

Any thoughts or suggestions for action?

Cheers

Norman

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 07:02 PM

eBay is very careful to keep themselves out of the loop. They seem to feel that their function is to collect and stand aside. Good luck. My last bad experience has stopped me from bidding on most items. And you are right - there is no way to contact eBay. Very frustrating.

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 07:07 PM

Don't hold your breath Norman. My uilleann pipes, stolen in Dublin last year, came up on eBay a few months ago. I told the seller I owned them and very soon afterwards there was a bid from someone who mysteriously registered with eBay that very day (and who has since disappeared).

This was the only bid. People around the world knew the kit was mine. They had drawn the sale to my attention in the first place, and spread the world throughout the piping community.

I informed the police but couldn't get through to eBay at all. They insisted that any approach should be from the police.

The Dublin police then wasted many hours trying to liaise with eBay and even sent uniformed officers to the eBay premises in Dublin to try to force progress. Eventually eBay yielded the seller's ID (wrong) address. Police tracked down the seller, seized the pipes and returned them to me, before the auction had closed.

For three months after that, eBay continued to list the auction as a completed sale, despite knowing that the listed goods had been seized before the auction closed. The seller and buyer did not leave each other feedback, needless to say, and I have sometimes wondered whether eBay claimed their commission on the non-sale.

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 07:11 PM

There are several anti-eBay groups around - they show up on a Google...

"28,000 feedbacks, which looks safe and legitimate. Clearly, something happened to the trader in the last few weeks for it to go belly-up."

Hijacking of sellers' ids is increasingly common.

Phishing attacks and other means are used to grab useful details, then these ids are milked for a short time - be thankful it was only a small amount for a CD!!!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 07:15 PM

You can connect with an ebay rep at this LINK.

I did and had a very instructive and helpful coversation with one.

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: pdq
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 07:43 PM

Can you tell us who the seller is? I buy a lot of CDs on eBay and would like to know in case this one returns.

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 07:50 PM

If you paid by Paypal they will cover you. Make a claim

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 08:08 PM

I have found the Paypal dispute service good sometimes. I bought an SM58 (new) that turned out to be a cheap copy, put in a claim for a 90% return, and finished up with a cheap mic for £4. Not what I wanted, but worth every penny!

At the end of the day however I am clear in my mind that ebay does owe a duty of care to users, and sooner or later someone will sue ebay and win.

Complain to tradng standards and the OFT, nonetheless.

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 10:17 PM

PayPal has been down all day--I've been trying to ship a box but can't print the label. I can handwrite it and take it to the post office, but there is a bit of a discount for using PayPal.

I had a purchase last summer look like it was going to go south, because after I'd paid eBay said they were "no longer a member" and that I should try to get my money back. Like eBay really cared, right? I emailed the guy and got no response so I tracked him down and called. eBay had apparently kicked him out because he bought too many worthless little online virtual services for quick feedback. You have to have a certain number before you can have an eBay store or something, and he tried a shortcut. I did in the end get my software, and I did write to eBay saying I had received my software.

Often times if you can talk to the vendor themselves you can sort out the problem.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 10:58 PM

If you are buying from an Ebay vendor you haven't bought from before, it is a very good idea to:

1. Look at their recent feedback.
2. Contact them and ask them some intelligent questions about the item and see how they respond.

These 2 approaches will go a long way toward avoiding a bad experience as a buyer.

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 11:08 PM

Good plan, Little Hawk. I haven't been ripped off before but I had two vendors who took FOREVER to send me my stuff. I finally wrote them snail-mail letters insisting that they produce. I was lucky, though, in that they were also part of a hobby circle in which word travels fast when vendors are slow/dishonest, so I had more leverage than most eBay buyers. All I would have had to do was ask around on some message boards and the word would have been out that their reputation was on the line. That doesn't work with large-scale, anonymous buyers.

I've never seen a vendor with 28000 sales. That might actually make me MORE suspicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 11:55 PM

Shane knows one or two women that probably have close to that many sales by now...but not on Ebay.

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: NormanD
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 07:50 AM

Thanks, folks, for the comments so far. I wonder if any newspaper journalists are planning any in-depth critiques of eBay? There's a whole load of disgruntled people out there. eBay, of course, would say that dissatisfactions amount to something like 0.3 percent of total sales, or some such defence.....

Regarding PayPal, they'll reimburse but exclude the first £15 of any claim, so I'd be screwed on a CD. And there's a whole load of other provisos you have to satisfy, like whether there's a "R" in the month, colour of hair, signature of both great-grandparents, the usual bollo.

In my case, the vendor was a "store" - maybe set up as suggested above. What a scam.

Norman

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: Scoville
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 01:27 PM

I still don't see why everyone seems to think that crappy products and sellers are necessarily eBay's responsibility. I've always thought they made it pretty clear that they are just the auction vehicle and that the majority of the business is between buyer and seller. If I buy a shirt from Wal-Mart and it disintegrates in the wash, it's the manufacturer's fault, not Wal-Mart's. They didn't make the shirt. Of course, I already know that Wal-Mart sells cheap junk. But then I don't bid or BIN without looking at feedback and I don't buy secondhand items without contacting the seller first to a) double check on the item's condition and b) see if the seller is present and paying attention.

A lot of people just do negative feedback but don't file complaints. There are way too many sellers for eBay to monitor feedback--that's why it's available for buyers to check on their own. File a complaint or it's not going to count.

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: NH Dave
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 01:35 PM

Amazon stands behind its vendors. I bought a CD from one of their vendors, never got it, and Amazon refunded my purchase price, no further questions asked!

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: NormanD
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 02:37 PM

In response to Scoville, my concern is that eBay semed OK about allowing a dodgy trader to continue trading (and, presumably, collecting appropriate fees from them in the meantime). And a market place needs to guarantee a level of safety for buyers - as the organiser, eBay should take appropriate and early action once alerted. They surely have a responsibility for avoiding fraudulent traders; if they ignore any warnings then they are equally responsible (in my opinion).

My other big concern is that it is really very difficult to contact eBay with an issue that doesn't fit into one of their pre-ordained categories. They provide the equivalent of an automated telephone service with options of which button to press - but with the big exception that you cannot be transferred to an "operator".

EBay has got very big, and also very rich - but not through caring.

Norman

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 03:22 PM

I have been ripped off at Ebay. But it was one time in about 60 interactions. Yes, the seller did close the Ebay account shortly after the transaction. I was angry. But on the whole, I have saved so much money that far due to Ebay that this loss is small fish.

I've decided after some days to do nothing at all (which is my advice) after having thought how much more anger, frustration and time I would have to give to that single instance of being ripped off. The probability of success was low (imagine the guy is really bankrupt; who's going to pay?), the amount of money lost was still low (though more than your loss) compared to the usual gains.

I felt good (after some days of anger) to let loose. Cut the losses and don't let revenge or the thoughts of getting even) ruin the next couple of months.

But that advice is restricted to minor losses. In Fionn's case, I also would have done everything I could to recover the instrument.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: GUEST, ...
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 05:16 PM

I bought something recently on ebay from a seller with reasonable feedback. It was inadequately packed, the envelope was torn in the post and part of the contents lost. I had been charged £2.99 for postage but the seller put only two second class stamps (46 pence) on it - not enough to cover the weight when the packet was full, so I know he/she did not get it weighed or get proof of posting, so no possibility of compensation from the post office. (The seller could have used a padded envelope, which was what the contents needed, and paid the correct postage, and still made a good profit on the postage charged.) The seller does not use paypal. He, assuming it is a he - a Chinese name so I'm none the wiser - says it is not his fault, but has offered me Chinese bank notes as a replacement, which I declined.
He says if I leave negative feedback he will do the same to me. I don't see why I should get negative feedback because he could not be bothered to pack and send the goods properly.
It's only a small amount to lose but I feel really angry and bitter about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: GUEST,Gza
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 06:22 PM

You're on the right track, Wolfgang.

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 12:21 AM

U.S. officials indict 21 in Internet fraud Scheme, which bilked eBay bidders out of $5 million.

Updated: 5:05 p.m. CT Dec 12, 2006
CHICAGO - U.S. officials Tuesday announced the indictment of 21 people accused of bilking eBay bidders out of $5 million through an Internet fraud scheme that originated in Romania.

The operation contacted people who had unsuccessfully bid on items for sale on the online auction site, telling them they had a second chance to obtain the items if they wired money to addresses in the Chicago area where the seller's agent would complete the transaction.

The money was divided between operatives in the United States and Romania and the buyers got nothing in return.

"This case is an example of using new technology to commit an old-fashioned fraud scheme," said Patrick Fitzgerald, the U.S. attorney in Chicago. "There is no refuge in cyberspace for those who use the Internet to cloak and facilitate criminal activity as law enforcement is becoming ever more adept at investigating cyber-crime."

About 2,000 people were victimized across the United States between November 2003 and August 2006, the announcement said.

Each of the 21 people was charged with one count of wire fraud. Most were from the Chicago area and all but six have been taken into custody, it added.

Investigators said half or more of the fraudulently obtained money was sent to conspirators outside the United States, most of them believed to be living in Romania.

(c) Reuters 2006.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 02:53 AM

Curiously I have twice been scammed on ebay (and once I bought a guitar that I believe the seller genuinely did not know had a stripped trussrod and he and I reached agreement about varying the price) - one I resolved as above and one I lost the £20. Actually another time I bought a 12-string that was considerably worse than I expected it to be: I was execting a crap but usable guitar but this one was both untunable (intonation WAY off) and unplayable (probably needs neck set, might get away with flattening table and planing bridge) but the seller was a junk shop not a musician and might have been telling the truth when it said it didn't know.

In both scam cases the seller had a chinese name and was a fraudulently created identity.

I'd say not to buy from chinese sources.

Normally I demand the other party's name and address, and check it with the electoral roll. If it doesn't match, I'm gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: redsnapper
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:17 AM

I buy specialist vintage items on ebay and have never had a problem in about 25 transactions. But, being a specialist area, you get to know the good vendors quite quickly and I always read the sellers history of comments before buying. You quickly also get to spot the people who clearly know nothing about the item(s) they are selling. If you are new to ebay, I recommend lurking and watching for a while to get a feel for the area you're interested in before plunging in. Like Wolfgang, I've saved a HUGE amount of money on many quite rare items but have been lucky so far.

RS

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 10:43 AM

The Chinese marketplace isn't regulated and is out of reach for American law enforcement. I don't know how often eBay gives those folks the heave-ho, as long as they can collect their percentage. I've looked at a couple of beautiful pieces, priced ridiculously low but shipped at exorbitantly high prices. It's no mystery that they are gouging on the shipping and consequently not paying a percentage of that as the sales price.

I was looking for some wool rugs and had bad luck with a couple of people. They refunded the selling price, one did refund the shipping. I gave up trying to buy rugs from anyone who doesn't sell a lot of rugs. One hid a big rip and a gap from the description and the photo, and I photographed it and attached it to my request for a full refund.

I think the trick to negative feedback is to be as reasonable about it as possible in that short description space you're offered. So you don't sound like a crackpot to anyone else who comes along and reads it later. For example, if you can set up a web page that clearly details your complaint, and offer that address (without html, that won't go in the remarks) then you might have a case.

"Beware vendor's badly packaged items. www dot guest at earthlink dot com for details" and post your version and photos of the event. I've seen sites like this over the years. Post it somewhere so it will stick around for a while.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 11:46 AM

I believe it may have been an MSNBC article that recently offered the hint that one thing to watch for is people who've engaged in a lot of "penny sales." It seems that groups of these people cooperate in offering and buying "really cheap items" from each other so that they can give "buyer's ratings" to each other to run up credibility before baiting the hook for the bigger ones.

That practice apparently is one reason for eBay's limit on number of sales per day(?), and they claim they watch for people who might be doing it; but a gang of thieves can vouch for each other to mislead the innocents.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 11:50 AM

Those penny sales are what got the software guy I mentioned in trouble. But I did get my software. I had read his feedback before I bid, and between then and when the auction closed he bought a bunch of the penny items, so reading the feedback isn't always going to give you a good reading on the seller.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: skipy
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 12:03 PM

It's not just a case of reading the feeback, click on the long number on the right hand side and you will see the item sold, if there is a run of 1p items then he / she is a con "person" building feedback with mates.
Skipy (feedback 1300+)

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: Kajikit
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 02:03 PM

I've never really been ripped off on ebay. I was my mothers 'ebay bead-buying agent' for ages (she told me what to buy and I did the paying and shipped the items to her when they got to me)... we bought over a hundred sets of glass beads, and there was only one where the seller couldn't be bothered to package them properly - blind freddy should have realised that if you wrap a string of handmade beads in a single sheet of tissuepaper (and don't even tape it) and then shove it in a non-padded envelope that it's not going to be protected en route from Germany to the US! She wouldn't replace them either - she said that was why she put a couple of extras in the bag...

DH bought a computer part that turned out to be a piece of (broken) junk instead of the motherboard he bought, but the seller apologised and said that they got it from someone else (and they gave us our money back).

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: Bert
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 02:09 PM

We don't use Ebay anymore. It's Craigslist only for us as you can deal locally.

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 03:32 PM

I haven't used that much, though I look at it on occasion. How does that work for you? Dealing locally can have its own problems--when you buy things do you meet in a neutral public place to pay or deliver, or do you pay online and mail stuff?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:04 PM

Bert

Craigslist is not invulnerable to scams either, check this thread

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: Grab
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 06:19 PM

My bad experience on eBay (out of a dozen-ish transactions) was a scammer who sent me a fake CD-R version of some software (BootMagic) instead of the real thing. I got his (real) email address, but I handled it wrong in slagging him off, and we got into a bit of a slanging match on email with me threatening him with the cops (he was running an allegedly-legit software business) and him threatening me with violence. In the end I said screw it and he refunded my Paypal payment.

The answer to all this is to pay through credit card or at least Paypal, so at least there's some kind of comeback.

On my one, the reaction from genuine channels was interesting. eBay did nothing in response to my complaint. And to make it really interesting, I reported the guy to the anti-piracy group that Symantec are members of. I had his email address, IP address, his eBay store details (which had a real-world address and phone number), the packaging he sent me (recorded delivery so more of his details), and the physical CD-R. What more could you ask for?! But I never heard a single word back from them.

That was what triggered the "screw it" response. If anyone had cared, I might have pushed it on the principle of people not getting ripped off. But if the anti-piracy people don't give a shit about responding to people stealing their stuff, I don't see why I should.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 08:09 PM

A friend of mine in New York City had a computer built at a local computer store, and we found out later they used a pirated version of Windows XP. We found it out when I was there a year later upgrading his software and computer. We had to send Microsoft a lot of material about the company and in turn he got a legitimate copy for half price or so. It turned out that company had already closed--so I think at least Microsoft was following up on this stuff. Someone else had probably already turned them in and they were history.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 09:38 PM

E-Bay is American

Your complaint is not from the European EU.

The UK has voluntarily, volonteered, of their volition... to not be vested in the value system of the continent.

The Brits have presented an enormous hurdle for traders, travelers, and affecionadoes of trappist ales.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Over 1,000 e-bay trades and still secure.

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 03:36 AM

Why don't you ask Shambles to take up your case for you ... he likes to fight injustice wherever he sees it and he'd keep at it until he got somewhere - or Ebay gave in!

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: GUEST, ...
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:24 AM

I don't know whether my seller ever sees the mudcat and saw my post, but after I emailed him YET AGAIN explaining why it WAS his fault, and threatening to report him to ebay, he has finally seen sense and sent a refund - by paypal, (maybe he has just signed up).

Subject: RE: BS: Been ripped off on eBay? What to do?
From: NormanD
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 02:13 PM

A brief update:

I've been able to get a response from eBay from a *named* person. The contents didn't amount to much but the personal response is a bit more positive.

I did pay via PayPal, who have now told me they won't pay my money back, for reasons they won't specify. That's no surprise.

Like I said right at the beginning, the loss of a CD isn't a big deal, but the whole process is quite interesting: finding your way around a massive corporation and trying to find pathways through it. People have worse problems when they buy new computers, for example, so I know I don't have much to complain about in comparison.

I can only assume that eBay makes its contact process so obscure in order to discourage communication / complaints - there can't be any other reason. It makes bad business sense, but they're obviously doing so well they don't need to worry, and any competition is really insignificant.

Norman

PS The CD I lost was an album of new Woody Guthrie songs by The Klezmatics, similar to Billy Bragg's. I'll just go back to Amazon, or see if they're selling it themselves.