BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.

Subject: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:47 AM

In regard to a point raised on another thread this afternoon I feel it's best answered in a thread all of it's own, as I don't wish to see yet another thread drift as happens all too often when Keith or Teribus arrives.

As many of you are aware I have been involved with a team of International lawyers over the past two years looking into evidence of British security forces collusion in the North of Ireland.


The evidence they found implicates the British security forces in direct collusion in 74 out of 76 murders. Their report is only the latest of many other reports which implicate the British government and its agents in the murder of our people.

Similar conclusions have been found by Barron Cory, Stalker, Stevens and others.

If we were to consider the scale of these atrocities, the refusal of the British government to instigate public inquiries and the lengths that they go to obstruct the course of justice we would have to ask what role they could play and how they could be trusted to deliver in the Irish peace process itself.

And the plans to increase the role of MI5 rather than confine these spooks to history would be their decisive and defining answer.

We might wonder also how a member country of the European Union which boasts so loudly about its democratic traditions can engage to such an extent in the selective murder of people who they claim as their own citizens - and on such a scale - and steadfastly refuse to investigate properly the mounting evidence which links them to the bombing and shooting of citizens in a member state.

If we were to consider all of this and the public statements and admissions of their informants and spies, then we are looking at criminality of iceberg proportions.

And it won't be shifted by the evasions of their chief of police. The arrogance of their secretary of state or the deafening silence of the entire British political constituency.

That these are the type of human rights abuses which this same government uses to justify its illegal war in Iraq.

We now have the PSNI sponsored "Historical Inquiries Team".

This team is not independent but a unit of the PSNI which must itself be investigated as a major player in these atrocities.

And they informed us that they can only track down 1,577 RUC files from 3,268 deaths. There was no RUC or PSNI central registry until recently.

Files were stored in police stations, officers could take them home and some were destroyed.

And as for collusionitself, the rules and guidelines under which the Historical Inquiries Team operates prohibits them from investigating any murders where there is alleged collusion !

Such cases must be dealt with by another team in London called the "White Team".

It goes without saying that none of this amounts to a genuine attempt at creating justice and closure for grieving relatives but rather a cover up of this catalogue of murder and a disgusting contempt for the rights of the families.

There is widespread agreement that neither the political process nor the peace process itself can succeed until the policing issue is resolved.

I had expressed hope that the policing issue could have been resolved by the end of this year, sadly it won't be. The policing issue cannot be resolved until the police themselves and all the armed groups that the British have sent over to us in the guise of peacekeepers are brougt to account for the crimes they have committed, and until adequate legislation is introduced to guarantee their accountability in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 10:08 AM

Well, I'll say it before Keith comes on & rightly takes issue with the accusation of him causing thread drift, just to take some of the inevitable flak off him.

How anyone can see Teribus & Keith (or Dave the Gnome, as happened on another thread) amazes me....clearly it can only be that Teribus' threads are so long & laboured that nobody reads them & thus cant see the difference.

I'm aware of the irony of this when addressing the issue of thread creep, & apologise.

Other than that Divis, & your line about "all the armed groups that the British have sent over to us in the guise of peacekeepers are brougt to account for the crimes they have committed" that, for what my opinion is worth, was a very fair & reasonable post on a most difficult topic.

Again, apologes for taking this thread off-track for a moment.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 10:57 AM

Gah... messed up that post!

the 2nd & 3rd 'paragraphs' should read:

How anyone can see postings from Teribus & Keith (or Dave the Gnome, as happened on another thread)in the same way amazes me....clearly it can only be that Teribus' threads are so long & laboured that nobody reads them & thus cant see the difference.

I'm aware of the irony of this post when addressing the issue of thread creep, & apologise....

Sorry...

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 11:01 AM

Absolutely agree, Divis. I'm not sure of Paul's post - why is it amazing that anyone can see me? ;-)

I wait for the day when all this hits the fan and the people who were responsible get covered in it. Unfortunately I can't see it happening but if there is anything I can do to help just say the word. I have already written to my MP (The up and coming Blair babe, Hazel Blears) about disarming Loyalist para-militaries. Do you think a note about this will do any good? Or does it need taking to the EU commission on human rights? What is the best plan do you think?

I can unfortunately see a loop hole which I suspect will let them off the hook. The Republican factions always insisted that there was a war and the active soldiers in that war should be treated as such. How many of the 74 murders were of Republican soldiers in that war and therefore a fair target? Don't get me wrong - I am not saying this is an excuse - but will the authorities not insist that if it is a war then soldiers do get killed? By whatever means?

This still leaves of course the ones who were not Republican soldiers anyway - and even one of those is too many. Maybe it would be a good tack to choose one or two cases who were completely outside the remit of the war for a class law suit? Just a thought.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 11:06 AM

Well put Dave!

(& I hope my clarification clears up any difficulty I appear to have in seeing someone of your small stature...*G*)

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 11:55 AM

Any member of the Provisional IRA who was killed(armed)on active service understood the risks. None of the on going inquiries I spoke of in this thread involved anyone killed on active service.

What we are looking at here are murders of unarmed civilians from both republican and nationalist backgrounds (some from loyalist backgrounds too)by forces paid and legally bound to uphold the law.

If there was a policy of bringing people to "the final court of human justice" why don't they come out and say so ?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:19 PM

Jaysus someone give that man a 10,000 piece puzzle for christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Shaneo
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:26 PM

The recent report into the Dublin and monaghan bombings state that the British army was involved ,This was an official Irish government inquiry that labeled the then British government as murderers ,I often wonder why when this kind of report comes out that the people responsible are not brought to justice.
A government that gives the go ahead to a paramilatary organisation to bomb innocent civilians are as guilty as the ones who planted the bombs .
This mass murder was carried out to force the Irish government into the introduction of internment without trial.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:30 PM

OK then how about a rubik cube?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:39 PM

Barring that - Haven't a Cludo?

or some other Whodunnit?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:43 PM

It was Colonel Mustard! Don't know which regiment he was in but all the evidence points to him. After all he is English!

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:57 PM

Shaneo, if you haven't already read the book "Dublin and monaghan bombings" it's worth a read. The dogs on the street know the ones who carried out the bombings. Two of those involved in the bombings lived in my area, both are now dead.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Shaneo
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:07 PM

Divis I have the book in front of me,,I bought it from Joe Tiernan the author at my front door .He put his own life at risk while researching the book , I recall he told me at the time that the book was the subject of some court case involving Granada television so I don't know if it ever went on general release.
Joe Tiernan is one brave man.
The bombs were primed just a stones throw from where I used to live.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:35 PM

Great there's two of them - get the chess out.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:40 PM

Guest, don't be bloody juvenile.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:45 PM

Paul, please allow him his pleasure he's good craic.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:52 PM

*G* youre right Divis...after all its hardly worthy of our reaction at all. certainly in the light of what he's so dismissive of.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:15 PM

Paul if you can't play nicely you won't be invited over again. Twister anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Alison M
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:09 PM

Dave the gnome, you said "I have already written to my MP (The up and coming Blair babe, Hazel Blears) about disarming Loyalist para-militaries." This is a good point. I had also mentioned that loyalists should decommission all of their arms, etc. on another Websites, but someone replied back to me and said it would not be in favour for loyalists to decommission as they would not achieve their adjectives. Sorry Divis to wonder off your subject here for a moment as I think loyalists should decommission to show they want peace too.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:13 PM

Oh no a laydeeee - soggy biscuit it isn't then.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Alison M
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:20 PM

Guest, haven't you got anything else better to do than follow Divis around in this forum? You should have been on the Website FAIR because you missed all the fun going on there, as the loyalists were scolding each other on there today.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:48 PM

Fun you say? Well you're in the right place. Your turn at the mike.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:58 PM

I'm from the states (Irish American), and don't know much about this, but I've heard 2-3 radio interviews with men (Ingram, Gallagher, Fulton? Can't recall the names). And these two former British intelligence agents said they infiltrated and carried out bombings in Northern Ireland. Any of this sound familiar? Can't find the articles or interviews now.

Curiously, right after September 11, 2001, the IRA claimed they were going to lay down arms, etc., and in America that was presented on our news as proof that a "strong" president would get worldwide results. But the men I heard interviewed said the situation was changing in Ireland because British agents were going public.

Bottom line, the men I heard interviewed backed each other up with credible information. And they said the British government has false flag terrorism to continue the "Irish problem" for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:00 PM

correction -- "has USED false flag terrorism..."

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:43 PM

god here we go again

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 10:31 PM

Is this addressed in another thread? Please direct me to it. This is an area of interest to me. We have a similar problem in the U.S. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:04 AM

No Keith or Teribus ?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:30 AM

No Guest, I know nothing of this.
I would be surprised if there were no low level collusion.
I will be surprised if high level collusion is proved.
There may be persuasive evidence and important believers, but there is for aliens landing at Roswell, for no airliner hitting Pentagon, for the collapse of the towers being caused by explosives, for MI5 killing Diana, no moonlandings etc.
I think it may be another conspiracy theory.
If it is true I condemn it utterly and will be glad to see the guilty locked up.
If I had evidence i would give it to the police myself.
Sweeney, will you tell the police what you know about the murder of Jean McConville and other atrocities?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:45 AM

Anything to do with the point in question, Keith. Are you saying that the murder of poor Mrs McConville is somehow connected to British collusion with murderers? Or maybe that the British government staged that one as well? Surely that is taking the conspiracy theory a bit too far isn't it?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:57 AM

No Dave.
I was pointing up a difference between Sweeney's position and mine.
I would condemn and help to convict if I could crimes on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:49 AM

As long as they aren't soldiers LOL

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:20 AM

All.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:28 PM

Singularly "On Topic"

Divis Sweeney's opening post is as disingenuous and riddled with contradictions and outrageous hypocrisy.

"As many of you are aware I have been involved with a team of International lawyers over the past two years looking into evidence of British security forces collusion in the North of Ireland."

Well we can only take your word for it. I would have thought, however, as you, and your team of International lawyers, are still at the gathering, sorry, looking at evidence stage, that at least one of them would have had the experience and savvy to advise you against going into print on an internet forum to discuss the matter.

"The evidence they found implicates the British security forces in direct collusion in 74 out of 76 murders. Their report is only the latest of many other reports which implicate the British government and its agents in the murder of our people."

"Their Report" as you provide no link or reference to it, can say whatever you want it to say. Do you honestly expect me, or anyone else, just to take your word for it??

"Implicates the British Security Forces", these is not the words a lawyer would use, they are not specific enough Judge Peter Cory in his report identifies sources of possible and probable collusion individually.

In 2001 agreement regarding inquiries into six "high profile" cases (including the Finucane case) was reached, provided sufficient indicative evidence was shown to exist. Apart from the Finucane case there are three others in the North of Ireland and two in Ireland. The Finucane case will be subject to an Inquiry that is beyond doubt. The form and conduct has yet to be finalised, the setting up of the Inquiry was initially delayed to complete the police investigation and prosecution of the man responsible for Finucanes death. This trial was concluded in 2004 and a sentence of 22 years resulted, under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement of course it is highly unlikely that 22 years or anything like that will be served. They are now in the process of setting up what form the Inquiry will take and who will conduct it. Senior British Government Officials are discussing this with Judge Peter Cory at present, at least that is what he reported to the US State Department.

The other investigations referred to by Divis:
Barron - 1974 Dublin-Monaghan Bombings
Cory – 1989 Finucane Murder plus the five other cases
Stalker – Irrelevant he investigated the Shoot-to-Kill Policy not collusion
Stevens – Investigated the murders of Lambert and Finucane

The similar conclusions reached tend to indicate individual and unit collusion there is, at present, little or no evidence to suggest that such collusion came about as a directive from senior levels.

As reported to the State Department of the United States of America by Judge Peter Cory, Britain has agreed to conduct Inquiries where independent preliminary investigation shows indications that evidence exists. This tends to directly contradict Divis Sweeney's statement that the British Government has refused to instigate public inquiries and considering the number of investigations that have been carried out somewhat belies the charge of obstructing the course of justice. Maybe Divis can explain McGuinness's qualifications on testimony before the Bloody Sunday Inquiry, or the lack of co-operation on the part of the PIRA into the Omagh Bombing - that's obstruction of justice Divis.

Who or what organization is charged with looking after the Internal Security and Intelligence affairs of the United Kingdom will be decided by the British Government and no-one else.

Divis announces that – "We now have the PSNI sponsored "Historical Inquiries Team".

And that team has the task of investigating the following:

"Its sole job is to re-examine all deaths attributable to the security situation here between 1968 and 1998."

According to this these guys will have their work cut out for them. Deaths between 14th July 1969 and 31st December 2001 were attributed and claimed as follows:

British Security Forces - 362
Irish Security Forces - 5
Loyalist Paramilitaries - 1020
Republican Paramilitaries – 2056
Unknown/Unattributed – 80

Hey Divis - Republican Paramilitaries – 2056 – WOW, at least you can tell this team about the gun that killed 14 year old Kathleen Feeney, and possibly help them bring her killer to book, as you and he were "brothers in arms". Hey Divis being neighbours you may even know one of the four women and eight men that dragged Jean McConville out of her bath on the 12th December 1972 - Jean's eldest daughter Helen knows four of them.

Another of Divis's contentions with regard to the Historical Enquiries Team was – "This team is not independent but a unit of the PSNI which must itself be investigated as a major player in these atrocities."

Well here's what they (The Historical Enquiries Team) has to say about it: "The Historical Enquiries Team will be staffed by police officers and civilian staff recruited both within Northern Ireland and externally. Command will rest with officers from outside the Police Service of Northern Ireland but who have gained experience of Northern Ireland issues.
It will have two distinct Review and Investigation teams. Exclusively externally seconded officers from other UK police services and An Garda Siochana will staff one team whilst the second will be made up from locally recruited staff."

Now this thing about the number of files and deaths, is presented in such a way as to make the reader think what? That the RUC deliberately misplaced 1691 case files? While I was taking a look at conviction statistics and details for another thread I saw something similar regarding complaints against the police I think it went something like 2600-odd reports covering 4000-odd complaints – Explanation is simple 1 report can cover more than one complaint – as 1 file can cover more than 1 death. But Divis would know that as his "lads" were normally responsible for the really big "mass hysteria" events during the period in question. Unfortunately the period covered HET investigations will not cover Omagh, I say unfortunately as then Divis and his "brothers in arms" could shed some light on that in a genuine attempt at creating justice and closure for grieving relatives. Up to now the organisation of which he is so inordinately proud have shown disgusting contempt for the rights of the families everywhere.

Give us some references so that others on this forum can make their minds up about your so-called "White Team". Or is this the Review side of the set up that I've described above who are in charge of the whole HET set up, made up entirely of outsiders and commanded by Cdr David Cox (ex-Metropolitan Police). Now let's have a little recap here Divis:

You have no problem with the impartiality of Stalker (UK Chief Constable)

You have no problem with the impartiality of Stevens (UK Police Commissioner Metropolitan Police)

So what's your problem with Cox?? What is it that causes you to say that, ". none of this amounts to a genuine attempt at creating justice and closure for grieving relatives but rather a cover up of this catalogue of murder and a disgusting contempt for the rights of the families".

Well Divis, I tell you what, we'll see how this goes, and when it does come to a, "genuine attempt at creating justice and closure for grieving relatives" your lot can come clean with regard to Jean McConville, proclaim to the world that she was NOT an informer, that she was completely innocent, and that your boss Gerry Adams ordered/approved her abduction, torture and murder. Quite a lot of relatives there Divis, after all she had ten children, who you and your neighbours just turned their backs on 34 years ago come Christmas. Your lads, or their spokesmen can then toddle along and accept due process at the International War Crimes Court – two prospective charges in relation to Jean McConville's murder await.

With regard to your obvious disgust at a, "…catalogue of murder and a disgusting contempt for the rights of the families". What were those figures again - Republican Paramilitaries – 2056. Maybe you and your colleagues should have got disgusted a bit earlier, sometime around 1968, there would 3000-odd more Irishmen and women alive now if you had.

I trust that HET will do it's job – It is high time that ALL concerned were brought to account for the crimes that they committed:
Deaths between 14th July 1969 and 31st December 2001 were attributed and claimed as follows:

British Security Forces - 362
Irish Security Forces - 5
Loyalist Paramilitaries - 1020
Republican Paramilitaries – 2056
Unknown/Unattributed – 80

PS Divis: No-one was ever sent over in the guise of peacekeepers. All troops sent over were sent to "Aid the Civil Power", there is a great deal of difference.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:52 PM

Brilliant! If I wore a hat I would take it off to you.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:59 PM

Fair enough, Teribus. I still think it is worth investigating though. IF the British government did colude in these murders someone needs to be brought to justice for it. I think to say that all deaths need to be investigated is a bit wrong. I could be barking up the wrong tree here but wouldn't bringing the PIRA soldiers to trial be akin to trying members of, for instance, the French or Polish resistance after WW11? The official oppressors in that case, IE Nazi Germany, were held attributable for their crimes but murders and acts of sabotage by the resistance were lauded as a good thing? Just my opinion of course but I do think that there is something very wrong with Government backed murder. I agree that it does need proving of course as innocence should be assumed until proven otherwise.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 01:28 PM

these people are stuck in the past and cannot look towards the future.
so just leave them there, stick the Republican and Loyalists on an island and then the rest of the world will live 'happyly ever after.

Happy Christmas

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:14 PM

Er, they are stuck on an island Tom.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:19 PM

Straight jacket required for our friend and member dear old Teribus.
He insulted the people of Balham here in London and called them all sorts of names. Teribus are they not English ?

So Ireland and Balham are all full of bad people then Teribus, what about the Welsh or Scots ?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Shaneo
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:21 PM

Yep stuck on an island , with the fastest growing economy in Europe and being the third richest country in the world per capita ,


Not a bad place to be.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:24 PM

I so wanted to say that myself Keith!

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:48 PM

in the middle of the ocean I mean a desert island.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:49 PM

Then why shaneo does it also have the fastest rises in racist and homophobic attacks, especially racist attacks on children and also an escalating drug problem that is pushing the tiles off the roof?

Why can it not enjoy its upsurge economically and stop injuring anyone who doesn't wear the correct shade of skin?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:10 PM

GUEST - 19 Dec 06 - 02:19 PM

"Straight jacket required for our friend and member dear old Teribus.
He insulted the people of Balham here in London and called them all sorts of names. Teribus are they not English ?

So Ireland and Balham are all full of bad people then Teribus, what about the Welsh or Scots ?"

Once again I will ask you to provide any evidence of the above.

Please quote any postpost of mine where I have, "INSULTED THE PEOPLE OF BALHAM AND CALLED THEM ANY SORTS OF NAMES"

If, as I know for certain you cannot do this, then dear Guest please with the best will in the world please fuck off, fuck you and the horse you rode in on - You know damn well that you cannot provide one shred of evidence to substantiate your outrageous accusations.
The ball is now firmly in your court - Please "Cut and Paste" any post of mine that substantiates your claim - If you cannot do so within the next 24 hours please have honesty and integrity to admit as much and never post here again.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:18 PM

Shaneo - 19 Dec 06 - 02:21 PM

"the third richest country in the world per capita"

Eh Shaneo, I actually happen to live in the third richest country in the world , and guess what it ain't fuckin' Ireland. Without EU subsidies Ireland would be lost. Let's hear your counter arguement on that.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:33 PM

Eh? by the bye Lads you've all gone miles off topic just to attack me - And quite frankly I couldn't give a toss - because I certainly did not de-rail the train - but note that, as usual when confronted with fact, the Oul' Republican Cause is fuckin' speechless - No counter arguement whatsoever. Big surprise!!!

Hey guys points made - Awaiting your response

What were the figures again:

British Security Forces - 362
Irish Security Forces - 5
Loyalist Paramilitaries - 1020
Republican Paramilitaries – 2056
Unknown/Unattributed – 80

Come on, all you "Noble Sons of Erin" all you "Plastic Paddys" over there in the good old US of A - Justify those figures. Tell me just exactly how and why those people had to die.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:35 PM

Clocks runnin' GUEST - 19 Dec 06 - 02:19 PM

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:43 PM

Clocks still runnin' GUEST - 19 Dec 06 - 02:19 PM

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:49 PM

Hey BALHAM haven't heard anthing from you yet

Anything by way of fact to offer at all???

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:08 PM

Jaysus the silence is deafening

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:24 PM

Does he always talk to himself like this?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:42 PM

POWER: At half past nine this morning we were actually running an exercise for a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing up right now.

HOST: To get this quite straight, you were running an exercise to see how you would cope with this and it happened while you were running the exercise?

POWER: Precisely...

(Statement made on BBC Radio 5 by Peter Power, Managing Director of Visor Consultants. Statement made on the day of the July 7 bombings in London. Talk about getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar. And if the British government would do this to its own people, then...)

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 01:36 AM

Guest 10 42
Some people here get annoyed by people changing the subject.
We know who did the 7/7 bombings and it was not the government.
We even have their Al Q. suicide videos.
But thnk you for adding to the list of crackpot conspiracy theories I gave earlier.
Guest 10 24
He was not talking to himself but to specific, named contributors who appear not to be able to answer.
Some of them have told lies on this forum about a member of this forum. (Balham)
That is not acceptable here.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:09 AM

That clock is still runnin' GUEST - 19 Dec 06 - 02:19 PM

Cat got your tongue? Hands trapped in a drawer?

Come on!! Anything at all to support your statement???

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:41 AM

I head into the countryside of Spain for one day and return to see yet another thread destroyed by Well-orchestrated chaos.

If this is all you have to offer there is little point in trying to discuss or debate any matter with either of you.

Just for one short moment in time, consider how you both must appear to other members who visit threads like this.

If these rants and thread drifts are your answers to this very serious subject, I feel sorry for both of you.

Guest post all you like, it does not annoy me.

Divis

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:44 AM

Dave the gnome - 19 Dec 06 - 12:59 PM

Odd though it may seem, very few of the crimes committed involving loss of life during the period 1968 to 1989 were ever investigated.

Now on one hand you have the paramilitaries and their supporters baying for Enquiries into this incident or that incident, but when it comes to anybody wanting to look into what they did, it's hands off.

What was Den's dearest wish in that other thread:

"It is time for truth and reconciliation from all corners for without it there is no foundation from which to build the future."

But for the likes of Divis and Ard and their Irish-American followers "from all corners" does not include the "side" that they supported even although they were responsible for two-thirds of the deaths.

In the case of Jean McConville and the others who were "disappeared" on the orders/approval of the likes of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, the PIRA are guilty of war crimes. Now if Sinn Fein can stand on any political platform and demand that the likes of Pinochet be tried, they can hardly excuse themselves, but that is typical of their hipocrisy.

Here again are the figures:

British Security Forces - 362
Irish Security Forces - 5
Loyalist Paramilitaries - 1020
Republican Paramilitaries – 2056
Unknown/Unattributed – 80

Take a look at the lives lost to the paramilitary groups - all died needlessly. By the end of the eighties, certainly by 1994 the PIRA had "been fought to a standstill" - Note DtG that is not my appraisal - That was the exact expression used by Martin McGuinness to describe their status. When the Good Friday Agreement came about as a result of John Major taking up the IRA's offer (Remember the Downing Street Declaration was made in a response to an offer from the PIRA) McGuinness just could not for the life of him understand why the British Government would offer such terms.

I think that you are definitely barking up the wrong tree when you compare the likes of the paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland to the resistance movements that sprung up in Europe during the Second World War. Those resistance movements tended to restrict their attacks to their enemies, the PIRA launched their attacks indiscriminately on the population they claimed they were "protecting". Of course amongst themselves they could justify that because then, as now, if put to the vote the vast majority of the people of Northern Ireland would still vote to remain part of the United Kingdom. The PIRA never had any mandate whatsoever from the people of Ireland to wander around killing anybody, and guess what DtG they can NEVER offer any proof to the contrary.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:13 AM

Divis, does "you both" include me?
I did not contribute to this thread.
I admitted having no knowledge of this subject.

Now, consider how you appear, apparently unable to answer any of Teribus' points.
To dismiss his concise arguments as a rant is a cop out.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:18 AM

Has Teribus finally lost the plot & now suffering from delusional fantasies?

Why the hell is Teribus preaching to people about peace and democracy one moment and attacking them the next ?

Isn't Teribus preaching peace & democracy, like Jack the Ripper teaching me respect towards women, or like Stephen Hawkins teaching me to breakdance & gangster rap?

He ignores democratic opinion to wage a verbal war against the Irish along with his groupie. He deliberately manipulated intelligent debate to undermine other members by deception. Now I see he is attacking the people of South West London ?

Teribus clearly wants to end any hope of peace in Ireland by walking backways.

Get over it lad.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:26 AM

Still waiting GUEST

Still waiting for you to come up with anything, anything at all that supports you point of view, anything at all that refutes any of the points that either myself or others have made on this thread. That after all is what "debate" or "discussion" is about.

Still waiting GUEST - but believe me I am not holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:47 AM

OK Teribus - Thanks for addressing my questions. I may not always agree but I will always welcome well presented and reasoned arguments.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 07:57 AM

For what reason would I wish to debate issues concerning Ireland currently on this site with either Teribus or yourself Keith ?

You constantly refer to me as a liar and once you get your audience you repeat like a parrot every silly point they bring to this site.

As for Teribus, Christ if I was still practising in a hospital I would have the Diagnosis done by now.

Then your little army of supporting "Guest posts" arrive, ah that's another matter.


Regarding the facts and figures you throw at me from time to time, these bores the ass of most members.

We fought a war here in Ireland, we fought for our right to unite Ireland. I do not accept the British presence in Ireland and never will. I am a republican, do you understand that ?

I am sick repeating myself to you, I said the movement offered sincere apologies and condolences to the families of victims (non-combatants). I also said we acknowledge the grief and pain of the families of the combatants -- police, soldiers and loyalist paramilitaries -- killed during the violence.


Has your British army/government ever made such a statement ? Answer NEVER.


You single out cases such as McConville. You ever acknowledge acts of murder by your British armed groups here in Ireland. And you wonder why I don't reply ?


You can talk, fire figures, call me names but you will NEVER EVER understand what it was like at ground level.


To put this in a nut shell, there are a few members here that hate the Provisional IRA.

There are a few member here that will never forgive the British Army for their actions whilst serving in Ireland (me included).

The two will never meet, so accept it.

I repeat my support and respect for all volunteers of the Provisional IRA.

Divis

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 08:19 AM

I announce my support and respect for all members of the British Army who had to serve on home ground - probably the worst scenario for any soldier.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 08:21 AM

As is your right to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 08:24 AM

If only people would, Divis, if only they would. Once everyone accepts that, then maybe these threads will never be started again? Perhaps rather than recriminations, accusations and counter claims, we would be happier if all mention of the past crimes, of both Britain and Ireland, were consigned to the past? I can well undertand your bitterness and the passion which drives you but someone needs to draw a line somewhere or it will go on forever. Both the British government and Sinn Fein / PIRA have made a lot of concessions. Whether one has made more than the other can be discussed until the cows come home but why not just move on from where we are. Everyone? Please?

I have had enough of the current fighting so, in the spirit of the season, I will add no more to the threads in question. If anyone wants to PM me please feel free and I will happily shake the virtual hand of anyone who I disagree with or who disagrees with me. In the interim may I wish you all a very peaceful and relaxing Christmas.

Cheers

DtG

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 08:38 AM

I too support our soldiers and despise the IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 08:58 AM

Divis you start this thread and then say you will not debate.
What is the point?
Are you so unsure of yourself?
You just want to start a thread to make a point but can not defend it?
Pathetic!
Of course if you complain about the behaviour of the other side your own behavior will be thrown into the balance.

Remember I agree with all your aims, I just happen to think that the bloody murderous methods of the paramilitaries have delayed all your aspirations being met.

And if you tell lies to score debating points, expect to be exposed when you are caught out.

What gives you the right to special treatment?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 09:55 AM

Nice self exposure of yourself yet again Keith.

If you had read the header of the thread you would see I called it " British Collusion. The North of Ireland". As on any thread concerning Irish affairs you and Teribus come in and create "Well-orchestrated chaos" to take peoples minds of the subject.

You have read my apologies above, any chance of reading yours ?
You wore the British army uniform, so that places you in a postion to voice it or from your friend in the green apron.

I do not require any "special treatment" Keith, but the big difference between us is you have to search the net for information concerning the campaign, I have only to use recall.

As many members on this site are aware, it's a subject you clearly know very little about, you were never a serving soldier in Ulster, your friend only really warmed up the ovens in a barracks kitchen.

I continue to receive many pm's from members asking me to ignore you and let you continue to dig a big hole for yourself. When it comes to any thread about the North of Ireland you know absolutely NOTHING!!!

Above you will read an excellent post from Dave. It amazes me how you can think this to be your specialised subject Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 10:25 AM

Divis, I thought there was some merit in your first post, but Teribus challenged it on several points and, as far as I can see, you haven't dealt with any of them. For instance, if Teribus is right (IS he?) you were flying a kite in the way you described the status of the hitorical inquiries team.

Teribus, in answering shaneo's claim that Ireland is the third richest country in the world per capita you said: "I actually happen to live in the third richest country in the world , and guess what it ain't fuckin' Ireland."

So what country would that be then, Teribus? Ieland's GDP outstripped Britain's several years ago. With his reference to "per capita" we may assume Shaneo had in mind GDP. But if you're measuring richness in more general terms, it's hard to ignore the Economist Intelligence Unit, which consistently puts Ireland among the top coutries in the world for "quality of life," and the UK many places lower down the list. (They use a formula which embraces factors such as incomes, health, unemployment, political stability and job security.)

EU subsidies obviously kickstarted the Celtic Tiger,but you are mistaken to think that those are what makes the difference now. Ireland has developed a hugely successful knowledge-based economy, and seen through a relatively painless switch in emphasis from agriculture to service industries. Ireland is also much more open to international trading than the UK. Factors such as these mean that Ireland is attracting colossal inward investment in its own right, and EU subsidies are a relatively small part of the whole mix. (Most EU countries, including the UK, benefit from subsidies of one sort or another.)

Just a detail, Teribus, but Stalker was a deputy chief constable, not a chief constable.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 10:30 AM

I have read several of your apologies.
You say that you are sorry for the suffering caused by PIRA, but then you say you are proud of them for causing it.
That is worthless.
If I am so ignorant of your campaign you should be able to overcome my arguments easily.
This is a global forum. You can not expect to retrict discussion to your own countrymen. You have frequently pontificated on English matters.
There are no members putting the Loyalist case. We are your only opposition but you would prefer none?

I am rather lowly to speak on behalf of the army, but I turn down no reasonable request.
I apologise for wrong doing by any soldier in Ireland
By wrong doing I include robbery and unlawful killing.
Any guilty soldier should be prosecuted and I would help in that if I could.

Now will you say the same about PIRA volunteers?

Now will you reply to Teribus' points?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,member
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 11:58 AM

f???? of Terribus

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Alison M
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 12:26 PM

Divis would not be proud of any suffering that has been caused in Ireland by the PIRA. He is proud of them for defending their communtity from the UDA, UFF, LVF, UVF, and any other loyalist/unionist paramilitaries that exists or existed including the British UDR. I feel that all of us have played a part in the troubles. We are all to blame for what has happened over those years, which includes all the IRAs, all the loyalists/unionists, and the British too. We should be trying to move forward towards peace in Ireland. Blaming each other all the time does not achieve that. No one can undo the past events except try to build new bridges of peace for the sake of the children's future who live in Ireland. I know it can be difficult for some people that have lost relatives to move forward.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 12:37 PM

Are you Orville to Divis's Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 12:38 PM

Yes we should be trying to move forward and no, blaming each other all the time does not achieve that Alison, but still your republicans keep starting these threads.
Defending their community?
LOOK at the numbers that they killed
Causing suffering IS what they did, with their car bombs in town centres etc., etc.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 01:13 PM

Keith well spoken, our army shoots 14 gunmen in Londonderry and we are accused of murder, the British Army`s behaviour has been exemplary where ever we we went.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 01:29 PM

Peter, I have seen two letters from the office of the Historical Inquiries Team. For obvious reasons I can't state publicly the names of those who signed them (not that the names would mean anything to you anyway). Both signatures made my blood boil. I know both of them (not personally ) and without sounding paranoid it was like a kick in the teeth to know these two individuals are to be part of this team. Both well known home grown ex RUC. I cannot or will not be pulled into saying anything more about either of them or the contents of the two letters.

Regarding actions referred to here carried out by members of the Provisional IRA prior to the Good Friday Agreement,the British government will not be pursing them through the courts seeking custodial sentences. Legislation to drop prosecutions for offences committed before the signing of the Good Friday Agreement was introduced by the British Government.


These were agreed by the two governments during Weston Park talks. They agreed not to pursue the prosecutions of those involved in so called crimes committed before April 1998 (take that one up with your government).

The PIRA were not appointed Guardians of law and order whereas the British army and police were. That is the big big difference.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 01:45 PM

Peter,
sorry if my post above sounded as if all of it was a reply to you alone.
Only the first part was as a reply to your question.

The rest if it was general.
Best wishes
Divis.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Alison M
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 03:13 PM

Keith A, it is not all the IRA's fault. Loyalists/Unionists have killed plenty of innocent people and the British played a part in this too. Loyalists have used no warning car bombs, for example in Dublin and they marched with the Orange Order Parade this year and held up posters of the dead loyalist convited murderer Robert Mc Connell, who kill many innocent Catholics with no warning car bombs and they said "the Catholics can clear up their own blood and that is the way it is going to be for now on in Ireland." If I could find this statement online I would have posted a link to it on here for everyone to read.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 03:22 PM

Alison you are right.
I have said here many times that I have nothing but contempt for ALL the paramilitaries.
There are just no Loyalist paramilitary supporters here for me to argue with.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 03:07 AM

Sweeney, in the spirit of reconcilliation I gave you the apology that you asked me for, and asked you to match it.
You did not even bother to acknowledge it.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 04:44 AM

Sorry Keith, you are right. I really am sorry about that. Lot gonig on at moment and returning home today.
Hope you and family have a great Christmas.
Best Wishes
Divis.
I had already made my apology I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 05:33 AM

My problem with your apology is this.
Being sorry implies regret.
I do not understand how you can be both sorry for, and proud of, the same deeds.

I will leave you to think about that one.
Safe journey home, and best wishes to you and yours.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 06:48 AM

Merry Christmas to the families of the victims of the "Troubles"

This time of year must really bring it all home.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 12:12 PM

Right Keith let's get this question of your cleared up. Sorry for the delay. Lacking sleep,very tired at moment.

You said,
"My problem with your apology is this.
Being sorry implies regret.
I do not understand how you can be both sorry for, and proud of, the same deeds".

I am sorry that there was loss of life in the North of Ireland. The grief of the family of a British soldier is no different than that of a family of a PIRA volunteer. Yes it does imply regret. Regret that life was taken (on both side).

The question you posed "sorry for and proud of the same deeds".

Sorry for loss of life, yes. Proud of the men within the PIRA yes. Regarding the "same deeds" I don't understand this.

Are you saying how can I be sorry for what they did, if the same people I am proud of carried out these deeds ?

Keith I imagine you are proud of the British army and regret the lives they took. Was their deeds any different ?

You will no doubt say here you agree with a British soldier shooting an armed volunteer. I am not going to argue with you.

We both have used names of people on these threads killed by both the IRA and British army. (Mrs McConville and Majella O'Hare).

Both killings brought grief and suffering, there are many other people s names we could use to score points. I have regret for the loss of both lives.

I could have brought the names of two members of my own family here who were murdered but didn't, no doubt if I did I would get it in the neck "expecting special treatment" as you once put it.


The difference that lies between us is simple Keith. I considered we fought a war. You considered that your army fought a war. You say our war was wrong and I say your occupation of my country was wrong.

We will never agree, ever. You say we would have got a lot more if we hadn't employed the armed struggle, sorry let's agree to disagree on that one.

So let's agree, you support the role of the British army in Ireland, correct ?

I supported the Provisional IRA campaign for the removal of British rule in Ireland.

There I hope your answer lies and accept we will never agree. We are two very difference people who will never alter the others thinking.

Enjoy Christmas and let's both hope for peace in 2007.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Shaneo
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 12:18 PM

Are Sinn Fein the only policital party in the world that have representatives in two states [countries] they have four M.Ps in Westminster and five in Dail Éireann [Irish parliament]
Is this unique ?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 12:26 PM

It is Shaneo. Don't get them started on the Shinners next , if you do your on your own !

Enjoy Christmas
Divis

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 12:50 PM

Thanks Divis.
We see things very differently and yes we must agree to disagree.
I am just trying to get clear what you are apolologising for.
We are all sorry about the loss of life in last years tsunami, but that is not an apology.
You say you are sorry for the loss of life in the troubles.
Well everyone is.
That is not an apology either.
Get some rest and perhaps we can clear it up some time.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 02:37 PM

Divis, & Keith, for what my opinion worth, well said, both of you.

Divis, you put your case damn well there.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 02:46 PM

Keith, The Provisional IRA have apologised for the civilian deaths and injuries it caused during the campaign and offered its sincere apologies and condolences to the families.

The future will not be found in denying collective failures and mistakes or closing our minds and hearts to the plight of all of those who had been hurt. It will not be achieved by creating a hierarchy of victims in which some are deemed more or less worthy than others. That includes all of the victims of the conflict, combatants and non combatants.

I myself believe Sinn Fein is committed unequivocally to the search for freedom, justice and peace in Ireland.

I remain totally committed to the peace process and to dealing with the challenges and difficulties which this presents us with daily. This includes the acceptance of past mistakes by all sides and of the hurt and pain caused to others.

There is two sides to this Keith. As an example,on two occasions the British government were found guilty of cruel and inhuman treatment in European courts. the British government publicly admitted it and promised to refrain from all the violations the court found them guilty of. I can accept their willingness to correct this and sorry to use this as an example, not trying to stir the pot, just want you to see wrongs came in from all sides.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 04:03 PM

I'm sure the "non combatants" families are comforted and reassured by all the fine words here. My thoughts are with them and all of the platitudes being thrown around here must be very hard for them to swallow. Let's have peace and whatever reconcilliation can be achieved but please no more glorification of the "combatants".

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 07:44 PM

The cruel treatment Britain used was light and sound which was previously not regarded as torture.
As you say it was stopped.
Your side used horrific physical torture and routinely executed, so how can you express disapproval?
I respected PIRA for their apology.
I thought it a great step forward.
I find your comments inconsistent with the PIRA apology.
How can you be sorry for the deaths and proud of the killing?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:36 PM

Are you proud of your soldiers and the job they were paid to do ?
Yes the "nutting squad" used means which were rough.
My own brother received 3,000 pounds which was a lot of money then for the torture used against him by the British army.It was not light or sound Keith, it was cigarette burns. It was a doctor who pushed his case, he was afraid to. It was the army did this, Do you not believe there was torture besides light and sound ? please let me know and I can and will supply you evidence Keith.
My comments are consistent with GAC command.
Can we get this thread cleared up before Christmas ?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:54 PM

But which Christmas?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Epona
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 09:04 PM

Just in, wanted to say hello! Long time, no chat....I knew I would find a thread on here about Ireland. Now, as I interject here, I am conscious of stepping into another debate between several names I know rather well. But I feel I have to say this. I don't remember reading the part where Divis said he was "proud of the killing." I am a speed reader though and admit I may have missed that. That being said, I can completely understand feeling sorry for deaths, but proud of your soldiers. I don't understand how you cannot be proud of men and women who are willing to sacrifice themselves to promote and protect your freedom. And I'm not talking about glorifying torture or abuse. I am talking about proudly supporting people that, by the very essence of them volunteering for a soldier's position, is making the statement that he or she is willing to give their life for yours. That is the ultimate sacrifice, one that many play lipservice to, but never find the courage to embrace.

Just a side note: I got my copy of Lost Lives! What a reference this book is!

E

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 03:58 AM

Epona, PIRA killed thousands, mostly innocent by standers and mostly catholic.
Divis has never qualified his pride in all they did.
He has never criticised them for anything.
Even when it emerged they killed a child to blame the army, he just repeated the official apology.
Just now he described horrific physical torture and the routine execution of prisoners as " a bit rough". That is his strongest ever criticism.
He just tells us over and over how proud he is.

Divis, about your brother's burns.
(Last time you told this tale it was you that was burned)
Such action was never permitted.
That is why compensation would be paid.
The guilty would be charged.
I am not proud of such renegades, even if they were desperate to prevent another bomb on the streets their families walked.
I am ashamed of them and their behaviour.
Will you say the same about your "nutting squads"?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 05:34 AM

Thread Name Subject Posted
[PM] Divis Sweeney BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq (164* d) RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq 14 Feb 06

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Keith please prove I tortured anyone. Please also provide evidence I have ever come onto this site using Guest aliases. Stop making silly remarks unless you can back them up. Only makes you look foolish.

Teribus, saw British troops gather children on many occasions as cover walking through certain areas of Belfast with the lure of sweets. You forgot to add that one.

As to your remark about torture using cigarettes, glad you brought that up.
In 1976 I won my case against the British government for ill treatment and wrongful arrest, and yes you guessed it, the scars from the cigarette burns inflicted by British soldiers on my right arm and the photographic evidence along with their admission won my case.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 05:38 AM

Christ, Harry Houdini didn't twist as much as you do Keith, sorry I don't tell tales. I state fact. Yes I have two small scars on my left arm caused by cigarette burns.My brothers case is recorded and occurred in 1972.

I have listened to your last remark about "telling tales" and "being a liar"

I really should have listened to so many other members who left this thread a long time ago and followed the example of others. This is due to your lack of logical debate and silly half assed remarks.

You seem incapable of moving on. What I would really like to see is you talking to someone from one of the dissident groups. There you won't find any words like sorry, let's move on, it's over or let's embrace peace. Your not following the route your government took with us.


I remain committed unequivocally to the search for freedom, justice and peace in Ireland ONLY through peaceful means.


Close the door after you Keith, I think you'll find the room is now empty.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 06:56 AM

I seem incapable of moving on?
Divis, YOU started this thread.
YOU raised the issue of apologies.
YOU raised the issue of prisoner treatment.
I merely responded.
Surely I helped your case by reminding everyone that it was not just your brother who was burned?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 08:02 AM

Keith

The key to getting out of this vicious cycle you have created here is simple. STOP IT NOW. You have become the type of person no one likes to talk to any more. In fact you have become obnoxious I am sorry to have to say.


Your friends and acquaintances have began to distance themselves from you due to your lack of acceptance of other members posts.


You sound as if you have better things to do than listen to whoever is replying to you. You never seem to respond to scenarios people pose without some snide remark.
Frequently you dismiss stories and accounts of others. Stories that have a lot to do with the discussion at hand.
You ask people stupid questions like, "Why are you bringing this into it ?" It's like on a particularly serious topic, you may as well laugh hysterically at their point.
      
It's like a kid I knew at school who would Interrupt at random intervals with animal noises or vulgar sayings that are completely out of context and extremely inappropriate.
   
Why must you always be argumentative by disagreeing with anything anyone has to say ?


You have shown no consideration for others members views.
On a regular basis it's as if you wish to inform others of your superiority.

I once agreed with many points you made. Now you seem to have perfected your technique of getting for others to respond in an appropriate manner. You seem to have a new persona.

Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Epona
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 08:04 AM

You're perseverating...it's like I never left!

E

PS Happy Christmas and Happy Holidays!

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 08:06 AM

As I just said, I was only replying to issues raised by Divis.
You would prefer all his posts to go unchallenged?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 08:07 AM

100 but no cheers from me

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 08:08 AM

Merry Christmas and thanks Epona.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 11:51 AM

GUEST, 20 Dec 06 - 05:18 AM

"Has Teribus finally lost the plot & now suffering from delusional fantasies?
.....
Now I see he is attacking the people of South West London ?"

You have been asked many, many times to provide one example of attacks against the people of South West London. Guess what GUEST, you have singularly failed to do so at each time of asking - it's certainly not me that's delusional - it's certainly not me that is fantasising - anything I have said in this thread can be backed up, which, oddly enough, is bourne out by the fact that none of what I have said has been challenged or repudiated. So much for me having, "deliberately manipulated intelligent debate to undermine other members by deception".

Divis Sweeney - 20 Dec 06 - 07:57 AM

"Regarding the facts and figures you throw at me from time to time, these bores the ass of most members."

I am sure that they do Divis. They also happen to be rather embarassing for your arguement don't they? Here's a recap just in case they'd slipped your mind -

British Security Forces - 362
Irish Security Forces - 5
Loyalist Paramilitaries - 1020
Republican Paramilitaries – 2056
Unknown/Unattributed – 80

Now tell us again just who it was that the PIRA were "protecting" Divis. Can you explain why the bulk of those killed by the PIRA were innocent civilians. Can you explain just exactly what was the tactical thinking behind the bombing campaign executed on Bloody Friday, and what the additional hoax bomb threat calls were supposed to achieve over that period of time on that day?. You certainly have a great deal to be proud of - I think not - Not a single member of the Provisional IRA EVER gave their life in order to save the life of a single civilian in Northern Ireland or elsewhere - I can give you numerous examples where members of the Police, Security Forces and Emergency Services did exactly that - And Yes Divis I am inordinately proud of them for doing so.

Divis Sweeney - 20 Dec 06 - 01:29 PM

"Regarding actions referred to here carried out by members of the Provisional IRA prior to the Good Friday Agreement,the British government will not be pursing them through the courts seeking custodial sentences. Legislation to drop prosecutions for offences committed before the signing of the Good Friday Agreement was introduced by the British Government.

These were agreed by the two governments during Weston Park talks. They agreed not to pursue the prosecutions of those involved in so called crimes committed before April 1998 (take that one up with your government)."

It would appear Divis that what is sauce for the Goose is not good enough for the Gander. Which is it to be?? If you want names put and responsibility established then it has to universal, it must apply right across the board. That won't happen of course because the leading lights of Sinn Fein would be accutely embarassed, to the point where they would have to step down for their involvement in certain things, no decent human being would want to be in the same room as them, let alone shake them by the hand, or look them in the eye. By the bye the GFA applies to crimes investigated, as previously stated cases such as the McConville case are still open as are the remaining 681 cases relating to the murders of HM Forces Personnel (Only 81 cases were actually ever investigated and the others reamin on the books)

Oh yes Divis, you never, ever did come back to provide justification for the killing of a British Servicemen in retaliation for the murder of Kathleen Feeney, a murder perpetrated by the PIRA - proud of that one too?

The PIRA were liars, thugs, extorsionists, drug dealers (DAAD actually stands for Deter All Alternative Dealers as opposed to Direct Action Against Drugs), murderers, dissemblers. Had the Official IRA line been followed in 1972 then over 3000 Irish men women and children would still be alive today.

Alison M - 21 Dec 06 - 03:13 PM

"Keith A, it is not all the IRA's fault. Loyalists/Unionists have killed plenty of innocent people and the British played a part in this too."

Alison the figures appear above, over two thirds of all who lost their lives did so deliberately at the hands of the PIRA/INLA. I have said so many times on this forum I have got absolutely nothing but complete and utter contempt for ALL the paramilitary groups who operated in Northern Ireland, and I vehemently object to and will counter the arguements put forward by anyone who attempts to excuse or glorify their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:22 PM

Whatever you say Teribus, you are probably right. Sorry not up for a fight at the moment.

Hope you had a great Christmas and good luck for new year.

Divis

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Alison M
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:30 PM

Teribus, whatever you say. I am looking forward to a new year and new threads, so maybe you should do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 04:51 AM

Divis, you start these threads and talk so tough, but as soon as someone puts up a challenge you withdraw.
Pathetic.
You are a moral weakling.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 06:03 AM

Sorry Keith you feel this way about me.
I am sorry if at this moment I am not in the mood to debate with you. I will be more than glad to debate with yourself and Teribus in the near future.

Just at the moment I have had a death in the family and funeral taking place shortly when family get home from overseas.

Thanks

Divis

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 06:05 AM

You have my sympathies Divis.
Best wishes ,
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Epona
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 08:26 AM

Insert foot in mouth....

E

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 08:34 AM

Epona , I made the same criticism of Divis on this thread TWICE, on 20th December, before his recent personal tragedies.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Epona
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 09:02 AM

Keith, winding you up...Sorry, couldn't help myself.

E

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 10:01 AM

A cat dying may or may not be classed as a "personal tragedy"

Remove foot from mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 10:29 AM

Right GUEST I have just about had enough of remarks on this site. There is much more happening in my life right now than the death of a pet.

Without sounding too melodramatic please keep your remarks to yourself, the above one was about as sick as they come.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Epona
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 10:35 AM

I would absolutely call losing a furry member of the family and a human member of the family during the same period a tragedy indeed, GUEST.

E

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 03:05 PM

Another Guest thankful that I am an occasional visitor, there are some very weird people on this Site, so long.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 03:01 PM

Ditto!

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:04 PM

Divis seems to have been a lot neareer the action than you and me Keith, and probably a lot nearer than the guy who put together all these statistics you keep coming up with.

He thinks what he thinks. he's allowed to express his opinions without being insulted.

most people who lived through the 2nd world war listen to the stuff on the history channel and call it a load of bollocks.

Its not that he even disagrees with you, he just saw a different war. after all this time, I can't see why you can't understand this.

Can you not detect a degree of sincerity in his beliefs about what he experienced?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:40 PM

NO

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:48 PM

*ROFL* So, 'Guest' your head too far up your own arse to see the irony of commenting on someones sincerity, anonymously, eh...

I'm not really surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Head up arse
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:56 PM

All I can see up here is .... You.

Is Hull Hell?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:59 PM

Not quite....& nor is Halifax.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:02 PM

What about Huddersfield?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:05 PM

Hmmm, dunno....can't speak for 'Uddersfelt, as havent done much more than travel through the place.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:07 PM

That's probably the most sensible thing you've done.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:15 PM

Bad as that eh?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:40 PM

I can feel a song coming on.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:59 PM

WLD.you gave me 4 paras.
1 Yes, Divis was a combatant. I was not.
I think that stats keep us rooted in reality and not arguing in a vacuum. No one disputes the stats.
2He IS allowed to express his opinions without being insulted.
If I have insulted him I will apologise. Have I?
3Yes, the same event in history can be seen in many different ways.
4I CAN understand that he sees it differently. Is it not OK to debate with him about it? And why do you only address me?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:14 PM

cos I got a PM from him saying he couldn't take the personal remarks and insults and was going. I think the forum will be poorer for not being able to accomodate someone with a differing viewpoint. If we only listen to people who agree with us, its all going to get a bit like tory party conference.

david Irving disputes the stats

I bet you saddam Hussein would like to dispute the stats.

what d'you mean no one disputes the stats. for every stat theres someone to dispute them.

I address my remarks to you, cos you are sensible.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:31 PM

The Irish part of me thinks y'all ought to shake hands and let it go. The Scottish part of me seeks sheep. The English part of me wants a cuppa. The Canuck part--which is all of it rolled into one ball--will now have to figure out how to shake hands with a sheep while having a cup of tea.

Dammit to hell. There are too many good people on this thread 'having at' each other and I really wish it would stop. That is, in effect, ALL of you. Please, let it rest. And let us, those of us who have friends like Keith and Divis, not have to even consider choosing side. I truly like both you guys because of the people you are. That's the Divis and Keith I know. I don't know the folks involved in the 'troubles'. Ireland itself has tried to make the troubles a thing of the past. I pray my friends will see their way to do that, too. AND, if you two AREN'T fighting, then I hope I'm never in an Irish bar when people are. I think I would understand the term 'Donnybrook'.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 01:36 AM

Thanks Peace.
WLD I am sorry if Divis is hurt by personal remarks and insults.
I object to them too.
I do not make them.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 04:19 AM

Major thread drift here, largely caused by the obvious (and creditable) guilty feelings of English posters.

Of course the responsibilities for the British atrocities went right to the top. If they hadn't, the people responsible for them would have been rapidly shed from police force, spying organisations and army, and the British government would have made loud haste to dissassociate itself from those atrocities.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 04:20 AM

Guilty feelings?
Who?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:28 AM

come on now keith, admit it. Its our fault. If it wasn't for us Brits, they'd all be riverdancing and eating potato cakes. it would be a bit like that john wayne film, all the sweet colleens secretly yearning to to have their bottoms spanked by rebels with rugged good looks.

you know it makes sense. just admit it, and you'll feel better.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:47 AM

Subject: RE: BS: To clear a hero's name
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:32 AM

Gulp!
What can I say?
A serious case of egg on my face.
Thank you Guest. Please convey MY apologies to Divis.
Also to readers.
I somehhow missed that post.
Dear Clones, can you work your magic and delete this thread?
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:51 AM

Thanks Guest.
I was just going to post that I AM covered in guilt now.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:29 AM

WLD,
stats. of deaths in the troubles are not like those of the holocaust which include estimates and extrapolations.
Each figure is an individual whose death has been reported and in most cases compensated.
Den recently gave a link to a list of every person killed by the security forces, with the circumstsances of each death and known affilliations to paramilitary groups. Such lists could be found for all the deaths.
They really are not disputed.
I use this Irish site if I need figures.
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/troubles_stats.html#statusperpetrator

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:06 AM

Keith. As the problems in Northern Ireland seem to be over is there any real point in bringing the events in this troubled part of the UK up again and again ?

We have all read the statistics many times and it isn't a score card. These were human lives.

Circumstances of each death and known affiliations to paramilitary groups or the police force or British army should remain as a reminder to us all I agree, but please allow all hostile threads concerning Northern Ireland here to die gracefully.

I am not in anyway inferring you are starting these threads Keith, but we could set by example a new beginning of friendship, reconciliation and understanding by not regurgitating such horrible events again and again here on this site.

I would dearly love to see all of the regular contributors here begin a thread and contribute to conflict resolution and look at the future over there and see what all of you with your knowledge and experience could offer instead of reflecting on the past.

Alan.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:12 AM

I agree Alan.
I did not bring any of this up.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:32 AM

I understand that Keith. So possibly a thread on conflict resolution in Northern Ireland would be a good start and an agreement among you all to ignore any antagonistic entries to your discussion. I myself don't know enough on the subject but I do feel those of you that do can offer something. Just an idea.

Cheers
Alan.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:00 AM

Progress is being made Alan, though painfully slowly sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:24 AM

How would you know, Keith?

Corrymeela has been a centre for conflict resolution since you were an altar boy.

REFRESH

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:54 PM

Just heard George Galloway on BBC 24.

"Why did the sun never set on the British Empire?"

"Because even god couldn't trust the British in the dark"...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:59 PM

In the Argentine they use the term "the dirty war" to refer to what happened in their country a few years back. It's an expression that fits the 30 Years War in Northern Ireland just as well.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:58 AM

The Dirty War is also already the title of a book about NI.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Den
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:24 PM

Martin Dillon is a great read for anyone interested in the "troubles". He has writen a number of books (including the one that Wolfgang has linked to) such as God and the Gun, the Shankill Butchers, Trigger Men, Rogue Warrior of the SAS: The Blair Mayne Legend, Stone Cold: The True Story of Michael Stone and the Milltown Massacre and Twenty-Five Years of Terror: The IRA's War Against the British.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Epona
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:53 PM

Love Dillon's books.

E

PS Hi Tir!

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 05:08 AM

A public inquiry into allegations that the death of loyalist prisoner Billy Wright may have been the result of collusion will be published later today.

The leader of the Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF) was shot dead in the Maze prison in December 1997.

The murder was carried out by three members of the Irish National Liberation Army (INLA).

Since then questions have been raised as to how Wright could have been murdered inside a high-security prison.

In 2004 retired Canadian judge Peter Cory recommended a public inquiry.

He said he was satisfied that "there was sufficient evidence of collusive acts by prison authorities to warrant the holding of such an inquiry".

That investigation was established in May 2007 under the chairmanship of Lord Ranald MacLean.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 11:03 AM

The finding of the enquiry, no collusion involved in the killing.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM

I see the report said "The PSNI had been "slow and reluctant" in providing information which caused the inquiry its "greatest difficulties".

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,MikeW
Date: 23 May 11 - 04:55 AM

The findings of a public inquiry into police collusion in the murder of solicitor Rosemary Nelson in Lurgan will be published later today.

She died after a bomb exploded under her car near her home in March 1999.

The family of the solicitor claimed the police and government ignored a series of warnings about threats against her.

She had become a hate figure for hardline loyalists - and police officers - because of some of the clients she represented, some were republicans.


Another client was the Garvaghy Road Residents Group, which opposed an Orange Order march in Portadown.

The solicitor and a number of legal and human rights groups had raised concerns about her safety over a two-year period before she was killed.

They claimed she had been threatened by RUC officers as well as loyalist paramilitaries.

Within hours of the bombing, those groups and her family stated there had been police collusion in her murder.

This afternoon, the government will make public the verdict of a 15-month long public inquiry that examined those allegations.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: michaelr
Date: 23 May 11 - 01:01 PM

Gust, Mike W, please return here and let us know the findings.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,MikeW
Date: 23 May 11 - 01:14 PM

Report is now out. "The state failed to protect high-profile solicitor Rosemary Nelson before her murder in Northern Ireland a major public inquiry has found.

The hard-hitting report found no firm evidence of a direct role in the car bomb attack 12 years ago, but it said it could not rule out the possibility of involvement by a rogue element of the security forces.

The inquiry, concluded that Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) officers publicly abused and assaulted the solicitor, and it believed police intelligence on the 40-year-old mother of three had leaked out.

Before her death on March 15 1999, the lawyer, who worked on a number of controversial cases including those of suspected republican terrorists, had alleged police intimidation.

Those claims gained international attention and the report found police had made "abusive and threatening remarks" about the solicitor.

The public inquiry found that the state "failed to take reasonable and proportionate steps to safeguard the life of Rosemary Nelson".


It is very hard to expect the people living in the North of Ireland to believe that a new loyalist group who had been making crude pipe bombs out of fireworks for three years suddenly develop the skill to produce a duel magnetic tilt device using C4 explosive.

Police officers turned up drunk at interviews regarding her murder, other refused to attend.

It was collusion, just as the British government colluded for 30 years with state agencies.

People here learn to expect little and accept less.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 11 - 03:03 PM

An inquiry has found "no evidence of any act by or within any of the state agencies... which directly facilitated" the killing.

The panel also found "omissions" by state agencies made her "more at risk and more vulnerable"

They also accepted that there might have been collusion at a rank and file level.

In my first post here, 19th December 2006, I said,
"I would be surprised if there were no low level collusion.
I will be surprised if high level collusion is proved."

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 11 - 03:20 PM

"The report finds that "There is no evidence of any act by or within any of the state agencies we have examined (the Royal Ulster Constabulary, the Northern Ireland Office, the Army or the Security Service) which directly facilitated Rosemary Nelson's murder".

The report goes on to say that "we cannot exclude the possibility of a rogue member or members of the RUC or the Army in some way assisting the murderers to target Rosemary Nelson". Although the panel does not provide specific evidence on this.

Mr Speaker, those who are looking for evidence that the state conspired in or planned the death of Rosemary Nelson will not find it in this report"

Mike, I can not find any references to the drunkeness and refusals to attend that you report.
Can you guide us to evidence for that please.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 11 - 04:35 PM

Since they haven't been able to find evidence of who actually killed Rosemary Nelson it's not exactly surprising they haven't been able to find evidence of any actions carried out by state authorities to bring this about.

I note they leave open the suggestion that people working within the relevant agencies might have been involved - "...a rogue member or members..."

I believe the term "deniability" is often used in relation to such things.

This was a dirty war, and dirty things get done in dirty wars. By all sides.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,MikeW
Date: 23 May 11 - 05:35 PM

Keith, here is the link you requested.

Irish News " Flanagan at centre of
fresh RUC controversy"

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/03/25/ihead.htm

Do you not find it strange Keith that the group which claimed her murder had been making pipe bombs out of fireworks and copper piping for the three years prior to her murder, then suddenly they knock their skill level up a step to make a D case undercar device using C4 and a duel tilt switch ? Please let us know.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,MikeW
Date: 23 May 11 - 05:38 PM

Did you read this in the link I sent Keith ?

"RUC Chief Constable Sir Ronnie Flanagan was at the centre of fresh controversy, yesterday, after admitting that none of the officers involved in allegations of threats against murdered human rights lawyer Rosemary Nelson had been suspended.
A report by the Independent Commission on Police Complaints was highly critical of a number of officers involved in the original inquiry, criticisms which ranged from one officer being drunk to outright hostility towards Mrs Nelson. But Sir Ronnie insisted that the officers in question were innocent until proven guilty ... but would give no further information about an inquiry which questions the impartiality of the force."

And then there was this

"RUC officers tell Loyalist to kill Mrs. Nelson"


http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/loyalist-mckeown-police-asked-me-to-shoot-rosemary-nelson-dead-13922418.ht

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 11 - 12:40 AM

Thanks Mike.
Unfortunately your last link does not work.
Your first link was about a previous enquiry.
It said," an RUC officer arrived 45 minutes late for interview and smelt of alcohol."
So one man smelt of alcohol.

I found no reference to refusals to attend.
I did not find, "RUC officers tell Loyalist to kill Mrs. Nelson"

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,MikeW
Date: 24 May 11 - 04:24 AM

Here is the link Keith.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/loyalist-mckeown-police-asked-me-to-shoot-rosemary-nelson-dead-13922418.html


Loyalist McKeown: Police asked me to shoot Rosemary Nelson dead


Loyalist lifer Trevor McKeown could be called to the public inquiry into the murder of Catholic lawyer Rosemary Nelson.
Four years ago he claimed rogue RUC officers directed him to the spot where Rosemary Nelson parked her car and urged him to shoot her there — less than two years before she was eventually killed by a loyalist car bomb.
McKeown says two officers asked him to kill the human rights lawyer while he was being quizzed over the murder of 18-year-old Bernadette Martin — an allegation they strenusously denied.
He said: "I would be willing to speak at the inquiry as I have nothing to hide. I am very worried about my security in giving evidence.
"These officers wanted me to shoot Nelson. They made that clear. I didn't agree with them that she should be killed and just said nothing.
"When I was arrested a detective said to me: 'You shouldn't have killed that 18-year-old girl, but Rosemary Nelson instead'. He said it would be easy for me or other loyalists to shoot her.
"Another detective was sitting in the room and just sat there as if he agreed while the first detective was telling me he wanted Rosemary Nelson dead. That was made clear to me."
Exactly 20 months after the alleged incident in July 1997, Mrs Nelson died from horrific injuries suffered when the LVF planted a booby-trap bomb under her car in Lurgan. The Red Hand Defenders — a cover-name for the LVF in mid-Ulster — admitted responsibility.
Since her death there have been persistent allegations of security force collusion in the murder, which is now the subject of an inquiry headed by retired judge Sir Michael Morland.
Ironically, McKeown's trial for murdering Bernadette Martin started the day mother-of-three Mrs Nelson was murdered on March 15, 1999.
Two English police officers have already interviewed Trevor McKeown inside Maghaberry Prison about his claims that an RUC officer urged him to murder the Catholic solicitor.
The police team investigating Mrs Nelson's case later found that the officers identified had been questioned years before as part of an internal inquiry into Mrs Nelson's allegations that RUC officers were threatening her while interviewing her clients.
Keith, Do you not agree that the behaviour of these officers was somewhat less than we would expect from serving officers here on the mainland, clearly you find it acceptable.

Regarding the Red Hand Defenders using black powder from fireworks to make pipe bombs for three years, then suddenly turn their hand to an under car D case duel tilt bomb, using C4 explosive. What is your view on this leap ?

This was a dastardly deed Keith. She was a mother and a highly respected Human Rights solicitor. The Royal Ulster Constabulary as a police force treated her in a way I find unacceptable.

Clearly you support the RUC and you justify the murder of this lady in your comments.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 11 - 05:30 AM

Mike, you just said,"Clearly you support the RUC and you justify the murder of this lady in your comments. "

You have no justification for saying that and it is not true.
I abhor the activities of all the paramilitaries.
They have brought nothing but misery to Ireland.

According to your link, the bomb was the work of the LVF.

You reopened this thread, in your first ever post under this name, to announce the outcome of the enquiry into collusion.
It found no evidence of collusion.

Is there anything to be said not already covered?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,MikeW
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:17 AM

"Do you not find it strange Keith that the group which claimed her murder had been making pipe bombs out of fireworks and copper piping for the three years prior to her murder, then suddenly they knock their skill level up a step to make a D case undercar device using C4 and a duel tilt switch ? Please let us know."

Please answer. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:27 AM

The enquiry must have considered that.
What do I know?
Collusion between Loyalist paramilitaries?
Assistance from other terror groups?
Gadaffi?

Why fanfare the report, then reject it, and then ask me?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:30 AM

Ggogling immediately found, "LVF bombs often have contained Powergel commercial explosives, typical of many loyalist groups."

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:54 AM

On Wednesday 26th November (day 80), a closed hearing took place with witness B511.

He was expected to discuss how two leading LVF members, one with bomb making
capabilities constructed a bomb in Belfast and transferred it to Lurgan.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 11 - 09:59 AM

From Guardian yesterday.

Even before the Good Friday Agreement was signed in 1998, C Company had begun a clandestine terror campaign of "no claim, no blame", in which they tried to kill leading IRA figures in Belfast and anyone who crossed them within loyalism. In many incidents, they used booby-trap bombs to kill their targets. And they employed a military-trained bombmaker from Ballygowan, Co Down, to build more lethal and sophisticated devices.

Just two years before Nelson was murdered, an identical device was used to kill UDA man Glenn Greer on 25 October 1997. The 28-year-old died after a bomb containing about 1kg (2 lbs) of Powergel explosive, used in quarry blasting, exploded under his car near his Bangor home. Greer had previously confessed to C Company that he had been an RUC Special Branch informer.

The investigation into the Nelson murder two years later found that the same kind of under-car booby-trap that had been planted to kill Greer was used in her death.

The key link between the LVF in Mid Ulster, the bombmaker and Adair's UDA unit was a drug dealer from the Ballysillan area with links to Wright's new organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: J-boy
Date: 25 May 11 - 02:38 AM

And round and round it goes. Where it will stop nobody knows.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: ollaimh
Date: 25 May 11 - 01:35 PM

its a long dirty war because the british have been at war in ireland for nine hundred years--all the while pretending thats ok.if they left, or handed over power to a european interim government it would stop.

as for now the british continue to cover up their many assinations in ireland of the natives. moreover when found guilty as in bloody sunday they do not charge the murderers.

david cameron has been more apologetic and open and lets hope that that leads to actual democracy breaking out in the uk. in the past the british governemtn has used torture assination of its citizens, used faked evidence to convict irishmen, and when that was exposed they abolished the presumption of innocence in its courts all to get the rebels.

time to go boys, if your colonists can't get along with the natives time to take them with you. that's what the french did in algeria rather than fight an endless war. britian hasn't the courage to admit to its evil history and genocide except drop by drop, so the war goes on endlessly. the uk has been the worlds most war like country for hundreds of years and they aren't going to admit it was all wrong--that's how real world goes

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 11 - 10:04 AM

Dear Oh Dear - "Raised on songs and stories" - Eh olliamh

"the british have been at war in ireland for nine hundred years" What complete and utter crap. Go and read a book by one of your own Canadian Historians, a guy called N.A.M.Roger called "Sovereign of the Seas". Learn how both France and Spain (The super powers of the day) played Scotland and Ireland to divert English attention in their attempts to influence England's foreign policy to suit their own squabbles, by fomenting trouble on England's borders.

One point though why 900 years or don't we count the years of Irish raids on England, Wales and Cornwall?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 01:11 AM

By way of change, this case is about alleged collusion between the Garda, and maybe Irish state, with IRA in murder of two policemen.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0607/1224298499125.html

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 06:56 AM

I would just refer, once, again, to the Sutton Index which is irrefutable evidence that the number of civilians killed by para-miltary organisations far exceeds those killed by the British forces. This is no excuse as no-one should have suffered but just a reminder that people belonging to th epan should not call the kettle black!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 07:27 AM

Guardian inline?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 08:10 AM

British collusion in loyalist terrorism has long been an established fact and, as far as I know, never even denied.
it was touched on in numerous researched works.
Will check, but I think it was touched on in British M.P. Chris Mullins' 'Error of Judgement'
It is a major feature in ex paratrooper Tony Geraghty's 'The Irish War. A typical and fairly accurate dramatisation of it was used in Ken Loach's excellent 'Hidden Agenda'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 11:10 AM

Just read through this thread. That was a pretty good debate - Keith, Terribus, Divis...

where are the smows of yesteryear...?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 12:04 PM

What's a "smow" is it related to a "smew"
"A small, crested 'Old World' duck"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 12:46 PM

one of my favourites.... See a couple of them each winter.

;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 12:48 PM

oh you merry quipper!
(Charles Hawtrey in Carry On Constable)

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 01:04 PM

"See a couple of them each winter."
I 'smew' you would, being where you are.
Kindly leave the pond!
Jim Carroll