BS: RCMP's SHAME

Subject: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: GUEST,dax
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:59 PM

http://www.herald.ns.ca/Search/547998.html

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:16 PM

Tommy Douglas, regardless of one's political leanings, was a GREAT Canadian. He laboured for common Canadians and made much of what we have today possible. He was a tremendous man, and it does not surprise me to read what is in the article, Dax. However, I do not think the title appropriate, because the RCMP do as they are told by the 'government of the day' through the Minister of Justice. The shame belongs to all of us for ever having governments that would issue such orders.

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: Mooh
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:42 PM

...and all these years later, some still consider him a threat. The man was...make that IS, a hero.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:48 PM

You nailed it in one, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: gnu
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 02:01 PM

Damn straight.

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: Willie-O
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 02:43 PM

Wouldn't be so quick to let the RCMP off the hook. They have their own agenda and political leanings, always have. Along with all the good work they have done for the people of Canada there is some shameful history of strikebreaking (sometimes violent; see Estevan Miner's Strike) and sometimes stunning incompetence when they encounter a situation not covered in their handbooks.

I mean come on, why do you think some highly placed RCMP officer decided Douglas was still worth investigating in 1979 for God's sake! It's implicitly spelled out in the story: because he was seen as a senior figure in the Left.

Wonder what they have on Ernest Manning (right-wing contemporary of Douglas)? Nothing, I bet you a double double and a half-dozen.

There are many many honourable and intelligent RCMP officers doing good work in Canada and abroad, but as the Zaccardelli affair shows, the institution is still in need of a major overhaul. Pretty touchy subject for our current federal government, whose answer, since they were the Reform Party, to any questionable activity has always been "turn it over to the RCMP."

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: GUEST,dax
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:24 PM

I think that this smacks of Canada's version of McCarthyism. The RCMP has a very shady record when it comes to their anti-subversive sector, everything from this to barn burning in Quebec to the Arar case. If they had the blessing of the government (s) of the day is not known for certain, but at best they were on a long leash. There is enough blame that they can accept their fair share.

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:24 PM

I happen to agree with you, WillieO. I know members who have quit rather than do some of the things they were asked either to do or not to do. I dislike a police force that spies on its citizens. And I am not trying to whitewash the RCs. I find the CSIS to be little better, BTW. However, the RCs act with the general permission of the government in power. That they have often had an agenda of their own is true. But I don't think they did in the case of Mr Douglas. I may be proven wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: GUEST,dax
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:33 PM

Governments change but the bureaucracy remains! It is scary to think that we may have had our own tin pot J. Edgar Hoover using the state police to spy on elected officials but it seems to be the case. I think the Canadian people deserve an explaination from the force as to who ordered this, but I won't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: bobad
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:38 PM

In the article dax linked to it says "in 1984, the newly formed Canadian Security Intelligence Service assumed most of the scandal-plagued RCMP's security duties."

The recent Arar incident seems to contradict this. Are the jurisdictions between the two services clearly defined or is there overlap? Do they both answer to and receive orders from the justice minister? Does anyone know?

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:49 PM

"The Security Intelligence Review Committee (SIRC or the Committee) is an independent, external review body which reports to the Parliament of Canada on the operations of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS or the Service).

Parliament has given CSIS extraordinary powers to intrude on the privacy of individuals. SIRC ensures that these powers are used legally and appropriately, in order to protect Canadians' rights and freedoms. To do this, SIRC examines past operations of the Service and investigates complaints. It has the absolute authority to examine all information concerning CSIS activities, no matter how sensitive and highly classified that information may be. The results of this work, edited to protect national security and personal privacy, are summarized in its Annual Report to Parliament.

We encourage you to learn more about SIRC by visiting this website. You can also contact us by telephone, fax or letter if you require further information."

That what the Review body has to say.

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:59 PM

"Setting people to spy on one another is not the way to protect freedom."

Tommy Douglas

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: bobad
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:12 PM

It seems that oversight of the RCMP was severly lacking as exemplified by the Arar case. Justice O'Connor conducted an investigation and has made a series of recommendations to improve that and they have been accepted by the government.

Some of the recommendations:

" Independent civilian review: Judge O'Connor calls for sweeping changes to the process of reviewing police conduct. The idea is to deter bad police work by increasing the likelihood of exposure.

Similar recommendations were made in 1981 by the McDonald inquiry into illegal anti-separatist police operations.

Reform was slow and incomplete. Parliament created a Commission for Public Complaints against the RCMP in 1988. As structured, the CPC depends on the force itself to investigate complaints."

" Judge O'Connor recommends an Independent Complaints and Review Agency with the powers of a court to compel Mounties to testify.

The ICRA would also be able to initiate its own investigations."

The Globe and Mail

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: GUEST,dax
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:23 PM

Giuliano Zaccardelli resigned in disgrace but un-repentant in the Arar case. Perhaps he should be assigned to follow the musical ride with a pushbroom for a few years before he can draw, a no doubt, generous pension.

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: bobad
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:28 PM

Yes dax and the taxpayers will once again be on the hook for a massive financial settlement in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: Willie-O
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:35 PM

Good questions Bobad:

Are the jurisdictions between the two services clearly defined or is there overlap?

Briefly, CSIS investigates and supposedly keeps track of our terrorists, subversives, and potential security risks. When their work results in legal action, the RCMP carries it out. The two agencies have to interface carefully, and obviously they do a crappy job of it at some critical moments.

Do they both answer to and receive orders from the justice minister?
Nope, neither do:

Quote: "Federal Ministry of Public Safety & Emergency Preparedness roles and responsibilities

The federal Ministry of the Solicitor General(sic) is responsible within the Government of Canada for policing and law enforcement (including Aboriginal policing), national security, corrections and conditional releases.

The portfolio includes the department and four agencies: the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS), the Correctional Service of Canada (CSC) and the National Parole Board (NPB). There are also three review bodies: the RCMP External Review Committee, the RCMP Public Complaints Commission and the Office of the Correctional Investigator."

The confusion at the top, I think, is just poor editing that doesn't clarify that it's now called the Ministry of Public Safety & Emergency Preparedness. Worse luck for us, said minister is the irrepressible Stockwell Day, who showed himself way out of his depth when he was the leader of the Canadian Alliance (predecessor to the current ruling Conservative Party. I'm assuming you're not Canadian, Bobad so please forgive me if I'm wrong and giving excessive detail here.)   

"Does anyone know?" This reminds me of an all-purpose joke flowchart about how to troubleshoot anything. That is the diamond-shaped critical question. Sorry, lost track of the point here.   

CSIS has its own problems but it's worth noting that the RCMP got by far the biggest share of blame in Justice O'Connor's findings on the Maher Arar affair.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: bobad
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:18 PM

Thanks for that information W-O, I appreciate it, and by-the-way I not only am Canadian but live a couple of hours down the road from you.

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:24 PM

As a Euro-centric Brit (sorry) I'd never heard of Tommy Douglas before - my loss I guess! Thanks for the information
I wish we had more of his like today both here and in N. America.

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 06:34 PM

"Tommy Douglas's legacy as a social policy innovator lives on. Social welfare, universal Medicare, old age pensions and mothers' allowances -- Douglas helped keep these ideas, and many more, watching as more established political parties eventually came to accept these once-radical ideas as their own."


"Tommy Douglas : The Greatest of Them All
In November 2004, Canadians voted Tommy Douglas the Greatest Canadian of all time following a nationwide contest. Over 1.2 million votes were cast in a frenzy of voting that took place over six weeks as each of 10 advocates made their case for the Top 10 nominees in special feature programs on CBC Television. After a Final Showdown and one last chance to vote, the results were revealed on November 29, 2004 by hosts Wendy Mesley and Shaun Majumder."

The full list of the TOP TEN:

1 Tommy Douglas
2 Terry Fox
3 Pierre Elliott Trudeau
4 Sir Frederick Banting
5 David Suzuki
6 Lester B. Pearson
7 Don Cherry
8 Sir John A. Macdonald
9 Alexander Graham Bell
10 Wayne Gretzky

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: number 6
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:42 PM

If anyone is interested .... the late Tommy Douglas is the grandfather of Kiefer Sutherland .... Kiefer's mother is Shirley Douglas (Tommy's daughter) an actress and activist who was married to the Canadian actor Donald Sutherland ... Shirley Douglas as mentioned is an activist in her own right having carried on the right of Canadians access to public healthcare ... back in the 1960's she was active and outspoken against the Vietnam war ... she was herself a target and under investigation by the FBI because of her association with the Black Panthers.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:05 AM

Don Cherry...Jaysus, are we mad? Where is Stephen Lewis, Wilfred Laurier, Sir Sanford Flemming, Samuel Cunard Margaret Atwood, Emily Carr, Robertson Davies. Tim Horton for Chrisssssake ?

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:06 AM

I know. Seems strange to have Don and Wayne in there with people like Douglas, Fox and two Nobel winners. Be thankful Celine Dion didn't make the list.

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:30 AM

Yeas, or Brian Mulroney. Some people still think he was okay.

By the way, I seem to recall that Wayne Gretzky didn't believe it was appropriate that he was even nominated.

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:48 AM

"Yeas, or Brian Mulroney. Some people still think he was okay."

Especially Brian himself as quoted in Peter C. Newman's book:

The Secret Mulroney Tapes: Confessions of a Prime Minister details hours of interviews with Mulroney, his family and friends and quotes Mulroney as saying he was the best prime minister since Sir John A. Macdonald.

"Trudeau's contribution was not to build Canada but to destroy it, and I had to come in and save it."

Mulroney says: "Nobody has achievements like this ... you cannot name a Canadian prime minister who has done as many significant things as I did, because there are none."

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:51 AM

Exactly.

And he even thinks Kim Campbell let the Conservatives down and lost them power. He thought he'd handed her a shoe-in to another majority government.

Talk about head-up-yer-ass syndrome.

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:54 AM

The Life of Brian, and we had to live it with him.

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: GUEST,dax
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:41 PM

Gotta agree about Mulroney! An arsehole of the first magnitude!

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:10 PM

Getting back to the RCMP and the 'sixties.

One Sunday afternoon in '67 or so, the old man took me down to Cleary Auditorium in Windsor to listen to a talk by two spokesmen of the Viet Cong government. The old man was not a leftie (in Canadian terms), but he was (and is) an independant thinker ... Anyway, next day in the paper there was a photo of a grinning RCMP officer copying down the license-plate numbers of the cars parked outside Cleary during that talk.

Funny thing, no one seemed to think much of it. Different times.

Still, a little shocking to think of the Mounties spying on the great and honourable Tommy Douglas.

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: number 6
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:47 PM

As you mentioned meself ... it was the times ... Tommy Douglas was a far out radical in those days ... Saskatchewan is the home of socialism in Canada ... the old conservative guard was paranoid .... Kommunists (and all socialists were considered such) were feared. Christ, they were out to take over the world and here we had one in our own back yard.

Hmmmmm ... sounds a lot like these times doesn't it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: RCMP's SHAME
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:55 PM

I got a real shock when I momentarily misread the thread title, thinking it read: RCMP's SHANE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jeezus! I thought maybe Shane McBride had married the lovely Officer Jennifer Dana at last, or maybe even done that AND joined the force. Whoa. I had to sit down for a bit until my heartbeat normalized.