Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies

Subject: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: Naemanson
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:04 AM

I am reading They Fought Like Demons by Deanne Blanton and Lauren Cook. It is the result of ten years research into women who enlisted in the armies of both sides during the American Civil War. The authors researched letters, diaries, newspaper accounts and official reports to accumulate their data. They managed to identify about 235 women on both sides who enlisted successfully, masquerading as men, and fighting in the ranks with the men.

Chapter 1 provides a summary of those women they identified and what battles they fought in. Chapter 2 is titled Means And Motivation and is what I want to talk about here.

We know of old songs about women who join the army or navy of their particular country. Usually they fight bravely then don their skirts to resume their feminine life style. I personally have heard many people poo-poo that as being the wishful thinking of soldiers or sailors who were too long without the company of women.

I have two theories. The authors mention several women who fought in the American Revolution as proof that the women of the Civil War era were not the first to join up. I believe we would find, if we could research it, that women have joined up in all the wars of all the nations. The songs are based on reality.

The other theory, one I am NOT wedded to, is that the earlier wars had a few women and their numbers have been exaggerated by the above mentioned wishful thinking.

So, I put it to the community. What do we know about women who fought for their country? Also, let's use this thread to make a list of the songs about our women heroes.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:14 AM

Sweet Polly Oliver, The Pretty Drummer Boy and The Handsome Cabin Boy.
There are well documented cases in British army and navy I believe.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:04 AM

I remember hearing a programme on the radio about this. It was about thirty years ago so I can't remember much of it, but I believe they said that there was a woman in the Royal Scots Greys at the battle of Waterloo.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: Scrump
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:15 AM

Somebody recently posted a lot of threads about wrens recently - would that count?

... I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:16 AM

some fascinating information on this site

Women as warriors in history

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:38 AM

I assume you mean those who enlisted and kept their sex a secret, not leaders like Mabd and Boedica?

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:12 AM

Or Joan of Arc, of course.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:22 AM

What a great site that is EmmaB!

I was aware of a couple of the women on there, Phoebe Hessel & Hannah Snell, but I assumed they were 2 very rare exceptions, but that site shows there were many, many more!

*dips back into the fascinating site*

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 04:01 PM

There have been many women who have "passed as men" throughout history, including quite notably those who fought as men in various wars. Various sources identify at least a few hundred just from the past century or two. While some of the sources are "less than reference quality" around 250 or so names from the last 200 years or so appear with sufficient frequency that credibility is reasonable.

The remarkable ability of some of these persons to live undetected through their entire lives, often identified as women only at their death, suggests that there may have been substantial numbers of others who were never detected, and are unrecorded.

It might be speculated that women who disguised themselves as men to join an army/navy might have had a slightly greater inclination to return to "being women" when/if the conflict was over than for those who did so for less specific purposes, but I haven't seen any statistics...

With the exception of a few books, quite a lot of the "published" information is sequestered among those who exist "outside the mainstream," and while citations and references appear from time to time on "personal websites" and in blogs, the sites themselves are prone to disappearing abruptly, and site authors are often only vaguely indentified and untraceable.

Few of the books/texts considered (apparently) most "authoritative" have had wide distribution, and can be incredibly difficult to find, except occasionally in a few university libraries. They seldom appear in public libraries, at least so far as I've found from some "less than serious" searches of a few public libraries with online indices.

Quite obviously, documenting the number of people who "had a secret that was never revealed" would be difficult.

John

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 04:46 PM

Jik, I found eight books dealing with women soldiers in a historical context in my public library (160,000 items) alone. By that I mean women who served as men -- Clara Barton is excluded, as are the women who served openly in WW2 as WACs, WAVEs, WASPs, etc.

That was a quick search, and I haven't checked the University.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 05:01 PM

"Female Tars" by S.J. Stark covers women aboard warships in the age of sail. I seem to recall an earlier thread with further sources quoted.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: Susan of DT
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 05:43 PM

While the thrust of this thread is actual historic incidents, rather than songs, if you want to see a bunch of the songs, look under the keyword transvestite in the Digital Tradition. Among the 51 songs will be some that do not fit the soldier/sailor group, but many do.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 05:59 PM

and don't forget Terry Pratchett's contribution to the genre

Monstrous Regiment

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:16 PM

Don't forget that the Naval expression "Show (or shake) a leg" was an instruction for the sailors to put a leg out of their hammock. The hairy-legged ones had to get up for work while the women were entitled to lie in for a while.

Anyone interested in history on this subject would do well to go to www.rootsweb.com and look under DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution).
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:21 PM

Any known examples from more recent wars?

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:47 PM

WW1 and after pretty much all had women's corps. However, many were in actual combat.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:09 PM

Rapaire -

I haven't made any serious attempts to find info in this area. It's come up peripheral to some other things I've poked around at. I am aware of a half dozen or so books, fairly frequently cited, that appear to be easily found; but most of them deal with pretty much the "conventionally known" examples.

There seem to be several others that purport to tell about lesser known persons. The less-known books appear to recount less-commonly known histories. People make reference to them, but one wonders if most of those who cite them have ever actually seen the books for themselves. These are the books that I meant to refer to as being hard to find.

There certainly are sufficient examples in the easily found books to show that this isn't a particularly unusual thing.

Since the subject wasn't really too close to what I was looking for, I made some record of links but didn't keep many notes on content. A quick sampling of the sites I noted shows virtually none of them still existing after a year or so, as mentioned in my earlier comment.

John

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:33 PM

My understanding is that, up until only a few years, ago there was a definite policy of not having women in combat units in most armies. (Aside from some guerrilla armies and such.)

So any women who wanted, for some reason, to be in a fighting unit, would have had to get in as a man. Which is, I suppose, one of the things medical examinations for recruits would have been supposed to rule out. Didn't they have those in the American Civil War, though?

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 12:36 AM

McG -

I think the "medical" exam in the Am Civil War (and before) often consisted of "stand up," "walk three paces," "ok - you're a soldier."

You got an exam to get out of the army, if there was some infirmity serious enough to make you a hazard to the rest of the troops; but not much of one to get in.

John

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: Naemanson
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 12:44 AM

I don't have time to look at the referenced sites right now but I will. The authors make a good point in TFLD that in the Civil War nobody had much of a chance to get naked. Often a woman was discovered by the doctor patching up a wound or when clothing was blown off a corpse. The medical examination was supposed to look at the naked body but they usually didn't bother.

According to the book women joined up out of patriotism, desire to stay with a husband, brother, father, or friend, for the adventure of it all and to escape the boring life of a female during the Victorian era.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 02:42 AM

You need to remember to make a distinction between camp followers and women who actually served in the military itself.

A useful study which considers the actual and symbolic aspects in particular relation to broadside balladry (and hence folk song) is Dianne Dugaw's Warrior Women and Popular Balladry, 1650 - 1850 (Cambridge University Press, 1989; since reprinted). It has been mentioned in earlier discussions here on the subject.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: Dazbo
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 07:38 AM

There are some persons who are of ambiguous sex who could be genetically male but look female. Could it be that some (many or all) of these incidents could be these people?

There were certainly women aboard Royal Naval ships in Napoleonic times. Certain Petty Officers (or maybe Warrant Officers) were entitled to have their wives with them. Generally they helped the surgeon but they were know to have acted as powder monkeys and even to help man the cannons. Women who were present at (I think) The Battle Of The Nile were issued with commemorative medals (as the sailors were but only after pressure was applied to the Admiralty). There is also at least one case of a child being born in the midst of battle.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 09:19 AM

Some, at least, of the women who enlisted and served later married and became mothers. In a few cases the doctors who treated their wounds simply said nothing, patched them up, and sent them back to their units when they were recovered. During the USCW several of these women were cited for gallantry in action.

From the Medal of Honor citation for Mary E. Walker, USCW:

"Whereas it appears from official reports that Dr. Mary E. Walker, a graduate of medicine, has rendered valuable service to the government, and her efforts have been earnest and untiring in a variety of ways, and that she was assigned to duty and served as an assistant surgeon in charge of female prisoners at Louisville, KY., under the recommendation of Major-Generals Sherman and Thomas, and faithfully served as contract surgeon in the service of the United states, and has devoted herself with much patriotic zeal to the sick and wounded soldiers, both in the field and hospitals, to the detriment of her own health, and has endured hardships as a prisoner of war four months in a southern prison while acting as contract surgeon...."

Being a POW in the USCW was NO peice of cake for anyone taken by either side! Dr. Walker's MOH was rescinded by Congress in 1909, but she refused to return it. It was later reinstated by Congress and re-awarded by President Carter. She is the only women who has ever won this medal.

I have some books on the subject here at home, but there's a keyboard in front of them at the moment and I have no place else to put it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: GUEST,Peter Taylor
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 09:38 AM

In addition to those mentioned above there was Dr James Barry, who joined the army in 1813 as a surgeon, served for 40 years, fought a duel, and was only discovered on her death in 1865. John Brown was a soldier in the Royal Africa Company who fell sick on board ship. The surgeon there 'ordered her a glister, which when his mate went to administer, he was surpriz'd to find more sally-ports than he expected.' Dorothy Lawrence served as a sapper in WWI until exposed, while Jane Meace, who probably only joined up for the bounty, lasted until the next morning when one of the men tried a coat on her for the fit. These, of course, are only the ones we know about. In 1644 Charles I banned women who were with the army from wearing men's clothes, but that could simply have been for convenience on their part.
I wrote an article on the songs and some of the real women in Issue 3 of Folk Leads, which should soon be available on line.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 10:27 AM

There are some persons who are of ambiguous sex who could be genetically male but look female. Could it be that some (many or all) of these incidents could be these people?

Yes, good point. And some women may have had a problem with unwanted facial hair, that they were able to exploit this to their advantage, by growing beards to throw the authorities off the scent.

The problem is, they might have ended up repelling the very men they were hoping to attract in the first place. Although after a few months at sea, I suspect the sailors would have been less picky than normal.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 11:09 AM

Then there were of course Female Pirates, some of whom pretended they were male at least some ofthe time.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 11:37 AM

The issue of a beard was, at least during the USCW and the American Rev., irrelevant. Men were both shaven and bearded during both conflicts, as indeed they were during most of the 19th C. US military. Many men had mustaches, many had beards, many were clean-shaven -- as shown in numerous photos.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 11:43 AM

Yes, but the presence of a beard would undoubtedly help a woman convince people she was male, who might otherwise doubt this based on other clues to the contrary (e.g. the presence of breasts). As such, a beard would be highly desirable to a woman hoping to keep her true gender a secret.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 02:34 PM

Similarly, a bloke trying to pass for a women would be well advised to have a shave first.

This thread set me thinking form male equivalents - and Jake Thakray's Sister Josephine is one memorable example.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: EBarnacle
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:32 PM

I am surprised that no one has mentioned Heinlein's Ladies from Hades and others in his novels. His heroines were no wallflowers. Whether they were regular service or not, they did not hesitate to pick up a weapon and serve as needed. I would be very surprised if during his studies at the USNA and other places, he did not run across references to female warriors.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:24 PM

But I don't think they were pretending to be men in order to be allowed to fight.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 06:03 PM

What I find interesting is what we don't know: we know of those women who were either found out or discovered -- what about those who fought and possibly died without their true sex becoming known?

(Remember that burials often consisted of slinging the bodies into a hole, and very likely a shallow one at that, without disrobing the body or doing much of anything to it.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 06:08 PM

the "classic" folk song method of discovery

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 06:33 AM

Another example - a traditional Norfolk (and good) song:

THE FEMALE HIGHWAYMAN

It's of a female highwayman all on a summer's day
She said a frolic I will have and dress in man's array
And I'll ride out along the lea
And hope my true love I shall see
And there I'll test his constancy
With a female highwayman.

And so this female highwayman has mounted on a horse
And she's rode out and there she's met her own true love, of course
"Stand and deliver sir", she said,
"Or if you don't I'll shoot you dead
Or would you rather come to bed
With a female highwayman?"

So they jogged on together till they came unto an inn
And there they called an ostler and boldly they walked in
They called for liquors of the best,
They went upstairs and got undressed
What happened next can ne'er be guessed
To the female highwayman

For she's pulled off her breeches and likewise her jacket red
She's taken off her velvet cape and lay upon the bed.
Her true love in amazement stands
It seems the end of all his plans
For she has proved to be a man
This female highwayman.

Her true love stands like one amazed and at her did stare
But when the joke he did find out he loudly did declare:
"Fear not my love, it's time to smile"
He threw his clothes down in a pile
He was a female all the while
For the female highwayman

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 07:58 AM

Anyone else read "Women Sailors and Sailors' Women: An Untold Maritime History" by David Cordingly? (copyright 2001, published by Random House)

Especially Chapter 6, Wives In Warships -- he cites specifics about wives in both the Royal Navy and the American Navy. Standing officers were allowed to bring their wives as well as certain categories of warrant officers. But ost of them did not exist officially. They had to make their own arrangements for victualling or share their husband's food rations.

It was considered usual for births on board to take place alongside the guns.

Linn

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 10:30 AM

But I don't think they were pretending to be men in order to be allowed to fight

You're right, but I wonder how they got out of it? If a strapping bearded woman disguised as a man were asked to join in the hand to hand combat, what excuse could they have convincingly used to get out of it? PMT would have been a no-no, as it would undoubtedly have led to suspicion that the 'sailor' was not what 'he' seemed.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: Melani
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 02:17 PM

Re: Civil War medical exams: My friend "George" and I are cross-dressing female reenactors with theNorfolk Light Artillery Blues. At a reenactment last summer, George and the captain's 14-year-old son were recruited to take part in a pre-enlistment medical exam for the public. It went like this:

Doc: "What's your name?"

"George."

"Good, you can hear. How many fingers?" (holding up hand)

"Three."

"Good, you can see. Got four teeth in front? (George grins) Good. (taps back) Good, no consumption. Got your thumbs? Good. (to the captain's son) How old are you?"

"Fourteen."

(Doc writes the number 16 on a piece of paper and drops it on the ground) "Stand on this. Now, are you over 16?"

"Yes."

"Now," Doc says to the audience, "can anybody see any difference between these two soldiers?" After a long hestiation, somebody says, "Well, one's a girl." "Right," says Doc. "But did I do anything that would have proven that?"

He then said that when a Civil War cemetary was relocated a few years ago, when they dug up the bodies, they found that about 1800 of them were women, and that there is speculation that there may have been as many as 5,000 women in uniform in that war.

I think the deception may have been based largely on expectations--women were expected to wear skirts, therefore anybody wearing pants was a man. There was a woman named Francis Clalin who in civilian clothes looked rather like Abraham Lincoln in drag, but in uniform resembles on of our female Park rangers, who no one would ever mistake for a man--in other words, in uniform, Francis Clalin appears to modern eyes like a perfectly normal woman in pants.

If you follow the NLAB link above, enlarge the picture and see if you can spot the women--there are several. George and I, by the way, are not in that picture.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: Melani
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 02:18 PM

P.S. Given the number of young boys who enlisted, the lack of a beard was not necessarily a giveaway.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 05:50 AM

I reiterate: yes, I understand that a beard was not essential, but I merely pointed out that the presence of a beard would be widely accepted as "proof" that the wearer of the beard was male.

Hence, a woman who was able to grow a beard would have had a tremendous advantage in terms of being able to maintain her illusion of 'maleness' and thus remain undiscovered more easily than a woman lacking facial hair (as I would expect most of them to be).

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: Fidjit
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 07:51 AM

I thought I counted four females in the picture. Can't be sure though. Have to have a thorough examination. Something about a Virginia peninsular too. Don't know where that is. I'm only a man.

On the edge of something perhaps?

Chas

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armi
From: GUEST,Peter Taylor
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:21 AM

Re the traditional Norfolk song above, I had understood that it was a Sid Kipper parody, but a good song none the less.

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 12:55 PM

Hannah Snell is mentioned above, but a chance hit on the The Hannah Snell Homepage may add some info.

The page is by the author of a recent "new biography," Hannah Snell: The Secret Life of a Female Marine, 1723-1792, Matthew Stephens, Ship Street Press. London, 1997.

The page linked gives a brief summary, but there's additional detail at the sidebar links. The "Life Story" link relates that Hannah was 7 months pregnant when her husband deserted her. When the baby died prematurely, she borrowed a "soldier suit" to go chase the fleeing husband.

Unfortunately, her "disguise" was so good that she "got drafted" (impressed into service).

Another sidebar link at the "home page" to "Ballads" gives lyrics to two songs, one of which reportedly was sung by the original Hannah. A "Hannah Snell" was a noted performer after "her" secret was revealed, but this author casts some doubt on whether the performer was the real Hannah or an actress who merely "cashed in" on the notoreity of the real person.

John

Subject: RE: Origins: Women in the old time Navies and Armies
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 05:33 PM

From the 'Report of Commissioner of Fish & Fisheries' covering all arrival & departing vessels ingauged in whaling along the northeast coast from Maine to New York from 1784 to 1876

Out of Nantucket, Ma. 1800, Ship Lydia, 160 tons, Captain Clark, Brazil (whaling grounds)arrival May 28. 1801, 1000 barrels whale-oil, remarks: "one of the crew a disguised female; had been two voyages undetected.

last voyage: departed 1795, on Woolwich whaling grounds Aug 1797
prior voyage: departed Nantucket 1793, on Brazil whaling grounds May 1794