BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)

Subject: BS: Replacing a bathroom
From: Richard in Manchester
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:21 AM

Any Mudcat plumbers out there?

Where does one start? I need to replace the whole lot - flooring, suite, tiling, shower unit, everything - but what order do you do it in?

Floor covering (currently carpet - yuk) to be replaced with vinyl.
The new suite (bath/wc/wash-basin, electric shower over the bath) will go in the same position as the old one, so hopefully no need to move pipes etc.
Tiling will be replaced, but will also cover the same area as the existing tiling.

Should I replace the floor covering and then the suite, or do I put the suite in and cut the new floor covering to fit? Should the tiling be completed before the new suite goes in, or can the suite be fitted 'loose' (temporarily) and the tiling completed afterwards? The existing basin is fixed through the tiles, whereas the wc cistern has been fixed directly through the plaster and the tiling cut to fit around it. Which is the better way?

All suggestions gratefully received.

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:35 AM

The flooring depends on whether your bath is free-standing (on feeet) or pannelled.
Tiling should be done after things are fitted.
For other details, see: http://www.bathroomcity.co.uk/showerbathinstallation.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:48 AM

As an amateur plumber (and amateur brain surgeon if anyone needs one), this is how I'd do it. Strip out everything and check the flooring underneath- there could be rot in a damp environment. Repair the wall plaster where it has come away with the old tiling. Best check the ceiling too if you are being this radical, as any repairs will be messy. Check the positions of taps, drains etc. and reroute any pipes that need to be elsewhere- the final routing comes when you install the suite. Check carefully round the WC waste pipe, as the height (and angle if the installation is old) may be different, and you might have to fossick around with the wall.

I'd be tempted to fit the tiles apart from the edging (if you are using it) round the bath/ washbasin etc. next if you can do without the bath for a few days, as less tiling means less danger of damaging the new suite and flooring. Painting can be done now as well. But remember to mark up carefully first- any misalignment round the suite will stare you in the face for the next 10 years.

Remember that the electric shower must be wired up by a Part 4 qualified electrician.

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom
From: Grab
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:55 AM

As another amateur who's ripped out everything except the floor joists in our bathroom about 3 years back...

For the basin you only really need a splashback above it - if you're doing that then you can fix the basin straight away and tile afterwards. If you plan on tiling the whole room (or the whole wall) then it's better to tile the wall first and fix afterwards. That way, if you ever want a new suite (or if the person after you ever wants a new suite), it'll be a damn sight easier to change things around. It'll also be much tidier too - you'll never match the exact curve of the basin when you cut out the tiles, so you'll have to bodge it with a thick bead of mastic.

For the bath, you want the bath feet sitting on a solid surface, ie. the floorboards. Also make sure it's well fixed to the wall(s), because movement there is what causes the eternal problem of the mastic between the bath and the tiles parting company. When I did ours (which fit neatly into one end of the room and fastened on three walls), I used 5 right-angle brackets on the long side and three each on the two short sides. It's not going anywhere now! :-)

When you do the vinyl, I'd get someone else to fit it unless you're good at it. I tried it twice (loo and bathroom), and both times it didn't come out well. When we redid the kitchen, I got a bloke in. Cost me £50, took him about half an hour (for a large kitchen) and it was *exact* - I mean to within about half a mm everywhere. It's a skilled job.

But preparation is best done by you. You'll want hardboard down to line the floor, but make sure the floor under the hardboard is smooth. If there's any lumps and bumps, file them down or use wood filler to fill in holes. Gentle up-and-downs won't show, but any sharp edges definitely will, even through the hardboard. Also make sure the hardboard is soaked with water before laying it, or it'll buckle later. You *always* want to do this yourself, because workmen won't wet the hardboard first and they won't take the time to sort out the floor underneath.

Plastering is another skilled job - much easier to get it done for you, instead of spending ages sanding it smooth.

It sounds like you don't need to do any pipework, which is good. If you do, have you got any pipe springs to hand? You have? OK, take one in each hand, travel to the nearest body of deep water, take a boat to the deepest part, and drop them over the side. It'll remove the temptation to use them. After wrestling with crappy pipe springs for various complex bits of pipework in our bathroom, I now know that the only way to bend pipes and keep your sanity is a proper pipe-bending widget.

One more tip - fit the taps before you put anything in. And before you buy a crows-foot wrench (if you need one), check whether it fits the tap-fitting nuts. It seems that most taps in Britain these days come with plastic nuts which are about 2mm too small for the standard imperial crows-foot wrench (and they're plastic, which is another point against). If you've got a decent hardware shop nearby, they'll likely sell metal tap-fitting nuts which *will* be the right size. You might not need these now, but if you ever need to remove the taps once the basin/bath is in situ, you'll appreciate having nuts for which a wrench exists.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 09:44 AM

Just a thought...consider replacing all of the plastic fittings with their metal equivalents...you'll be happier later.

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: terrier
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:10 AM

......and make sure the lady of the house agrees with the colour scheme BEFOR you do ANYTHING. ;]

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: jonm
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:45 AM

When sealing round a bath or shower, make sure you are standing inside it, since the plastic deforms more than you would expect. Even better to do the bath with it half-full of water.

Please don't install a bath onto a covered floor - mount it to the floorboards and put the floor covering round it.

From experience, I would install all the suite and then tile around it, even if you are tiling the whole wall. It is what was done when we replaced the suite and we thought about tiling the wall first, then fitting the basin to it, but ended up fitting the basin to the wall and tiling round. If the basin needs replacing, we shall create a contrasting splashback area.

Plastering is a job best left to experts, but the cost of patch-plastering (small areas and repairs) will be excessive and if the patches are relatively small you will have an even surface to match to.

Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:51 AM

Off topic a bit ... sorry .... why do you Brits have the washing machine and dryer in the kitchen of the house?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:58 AM

Eh? I'm a 'Brit' and mine are in the utility room - what used to be the scullery.

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 11:01 AM

.. or the butler's pantry as it's called here in Canada ... but watching a those real estate programs from Britain, and the homes of my wife's relative's in Scotland the laundry machines are all in the kitchen.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 11:24 AM

I'd say the kitchen is far more common, #6 but by no means "always".

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 11:29 AM

Thank you for the clarification Guest.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: Bernard
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 01:24 PM

It's a throwback to the days of the old two-up-two-down terraced houses. So called, because there were two rooms upstairs and two downstairs...

The washing was done in the kitchen, because that was where the 'slop stone' and the 'copper' were. A slop stone was a large, oblong porcelain sink on bricks (or sometimes made from carved sandstone) which was the only thing in the house with running water - fed by a really healthy lead pipe!!

The copper was a kind of large vat for boiling things in, or maybe a 'dolly tub', and was used for the bigger items. The slop stone was for everything else, and devices such as a posser and a washboard were used to help pummel the dirt out of the clothes.

Hot water was heated on the kitchen fire (range).

Most people these days are more familiar with the use of a washboard as a 'musical' instrument - the skiffle equivalent of a bodhran!

A posser was a bit like a small three or four legged stool with a big stick attached, making it extremely uncomfortable to sit on - unless you liked that kind of thing!

To make the clothes bright and white, you added some 'dolly blue' to the water - literally blue dye.

I've only vague recollections of these things, as they were less common in the 1950s when I was a child.

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 03:22 PM

%$£$$£"!! Why didn't I have the balls to ask you guys back in 2000 when I was "re-doing" our bathroom . I did finally get it finished , but, it took the best part of three months !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 03:35 PM

"Why didn't I have the balls to ask you guys back in 2000 when I was "re-doing" our bathroom ."

There's yer trouble. I assume you got the balls and used them under the bathtub. That can lead to the tub slipping and making it difficult to maintain one's balance in the shower. It is better, IMO, to anchor the tub to a wall or even the floor--something that doesn't move except in earthquakes. The balls are a good idea because they will allow you to ride out the storm (mixed metaphor there) with greater ease. BUT, if the tub is too filled with water it will slop over the edge onto the floor. Thus, when it freezes you will slip getting out of the tub.

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 03:37 PM

Never engage in a do-it-yourself bathroom remodel if you are:

       1)   married

       2)   the house has only one bathroom

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:06 PM

If you are fitting a shower anywhere other than over a bath, make sure the floor is 100% rigid and solid (ie run all pipes in/through walls) make the floor good, screed it to get it flat, put a rigid (and I do mean rigid) impermeable barrier (eg 3mm plastic) over it then lay really good vinyl (lino) wrapped an inch up the walls or lay THICK but not too laarge floor tiles onto a complete bed of flexible waterproof fix.n.grout and grout with the same.

Also line the walls in the shower area tihe the same plastic, overlapping the vinyl if laid.

Then add the shower tray.

Toherwise, sooner or later, you will ahve a shower downstairs too.

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: Alan Day
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 04:12 AM

When laying vinyl the easieast way is to make a cardboard or thick paper template.The paper can be joined together with sellotape and joined as you go.It is easy to go around toilets,pipes etc and if you make a mistake just stick a bit of paper over the mistake and recut.You will finish up with a paper cut out of the whole room.In a seperate larger room layout your vinyl on the floor ,put the paper /cardboard template over it and cut it to shape accurately from the template.You then pick up the vinyl and lay it into the bathroom where it will slot in perfectly with no awkward cutting.I copied a proffessional that used this method and I could not believe how easy it was.An alternative method is to not fit the toilet or wash hand basin until the flooring is down,but you must allow for the extra height when you plumb in.
The power shower requires a seperate power supply and this needs fitting by an electrician the wiring (not connected) needs to be one of the first jobs and earth cables for your water supply into the bathroom.
Consider the more expensive idea of tiling the floor and match on the walls you will be more pleased with it in the long run.Buy a proper diamond tile cutter do not fart around with the cheapo ones you will break more than you put up.They only cost about sixty quid for a floor tile thickness, well worth the money.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: Richard in Manchester
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:06 AM

Hey, thanks a lot guys, plenty to go on there - unlike the cops who had their toilet stolen.

Do I pick up a hint of bitter experience in the comments about 'the lady of the house'? Fortunately, I think we live in an age where bathroom suites are any colour as long as it's white, so I don't anticipate any problems there. Mind you, her favourite colour is a strange, dull, dark shade of blue...

Seriously - most grateful for all these suggestions, I've read them all with great interest and learned heaps. You want a progress report?

By the way, are there any neat and tidy ways of concealing pipes? Other than the usual boxing, which I think often looks unsightly. The pipe concerned (the cold water feed for the electric shower unit) runs vertically up the middle of a wall and has a shut-off valve half way up it - one of those wheel-type taps, I don't know what the proper name for them is.

Number 6, the reason the washer and dryer are in the kitchen is because our houses are too damn small! If my washer wasn't in the kitchen, the only other place it could go would be outside in the street. And this being Manchester, I just hang my clothes out in the rain to dry.

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: Moses
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 07:38 AM

Many kitchens in the UK were built before WWII when there were no tumble dryers or freezers and very few refrigerators, central heating boilers, or washing machines. Consequently no space was left for these appliances and no space for toasters, blenders, mixers, electric fry pans, breadmakers etc etc.

My own kitchen is 6'6" x 9'6" with doors in adjacent walls. It has a washing machine, central heating boiler (furnace), cooker, fridge, sink and microwave in it. There is just about room for me also.

I believe there are walk-in closets in the USA and Canada which are larger than this!

Few British homes have basements and therefore there is little choice but to put the laundry-stuff where you can.

Ideally no food preparation area should be shared with laundry facilities and everyone should have a utility room with a "dirty" sink for washing tools, boots and other nasties. The boiler would be out of sight and the kitchen a lint and animal-hair free place to prepare delicious meals.

Dream on...... this is the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 08:31 AM

Two-up, two-down is often a bit of a misnomer, as there were usually three rooms downstairs. It was common that the cooking facility was in the kitchen- this usually being the rear large room, where cooking was done on a coal- fired range, and this room sometimes also had the kitchen sink. But often this was in a separate small room, the scullery or back kitchen, at the back, along with (if you were lucky) the "copper" for heating water for clothes washing etc.

When people upgraded old houses in the 1950s and 60s, they usually fitted out the back kitchen as the cooking facility. The old kitchen became a separate dining room.

There was no indoor toilet or bathroom, though houses were so cold that even a visit to the chamberpot under the bed took resolution.

Add to this that many houses accommodated large families- two sons and three daughters in my father's case- and that the front downstairs room was reserved for special occasions only, such as visits from maiden aunts or the priest, weddings, christenings and funerals.

And, the rear of the house being often a small yard (that originally contained the outside toilet and coal store and had room for little else), and that the front came straight out to the street, there's no room for expansion except by combining two or more houses- for an example see the opening sequence of the Beatles' film Help.

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: Alan Day
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 08:31 AM

I would cut out the wheel on/off system Richard and go for the more modern in line on off valves (screwdriver switch on and off).Preferably not half way up the wall, but in a concealed place where you can get to it(even with a removable unstuck tile with the valve underneath).The straight pipe can be channeled into the wall

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: JennyO
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 08:40 AM

This is so different from Australia, where what you call the utility room is what we call the laundry. Every house I have ever seen here, new or old, has a laundry - I remember the laundry at my grandparents' house, which was built in 1910. The land sloped at the back, and the laundry was underneath, at ground level to the back yard - very practical.

Sometimes our laundries are part of the house building - often off the kitchen, and sometimes, particularly in the older houses such as the one I am living in now, they are a separate building - usually very close to the back door. Ours is only a couple of steps away across a covered walkway. I can't imagine not having a laundry. As well as having a washing machine, dryer and laundry tub, our laundries often have a lot of storage space with an assortment of cupboards.

I have noticed a tendency lately, with new builds - especially apartments for business couples, for the "laundry" to be nothing more than a cupboard with the dryer above the washing machine and a door to hide the whole thing. I don't care for that myself. I'd have to find a new home for brooms, mops, heavy cleaning stuff, tools, the cats' beds, and a multitude of other things. As you said Moses, the laundry tub is very handy for heavy cleaning jobs, and that sort of thing is best kept away from food preparation areas.

Also, having seen some US home shows, I've seen mention of a "mud room", which is apparently the first room you walk into from the back, where dirty boots, rain gear and the like can be stashed. I imagine some of the stuff I put in my laundry would be at home there too. Sounds like a jolly good idea to me!

I'm afraid I've drifted off the topic somewhat, but everything to do with houses fascinates me, so I'll be watching for more bathroom ideas. I rather liked the idea of the cardboard templates for the tiles that Alan Day mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 06:09 AM

If I were doing a bathroom remodel I'd like one of those showers where there's no horrid scummy white basin to step into, but a rough-ish tile floor sloping down to a big drain in the corner, so the whole room is the shower room. Much nicer.

And I'd get one of those moveable bath taps, so you can actually move it out of the way and get in the hot end.

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 06:47 AM

Just noticed this thread.

So what are you planning on replacing the bathroom WITH?

Know of one guy who put a door over the bathtub, put a mattress on that, called it his bedroom, built a new luxurious bathroom complete with spa, etc, in the old bedroom, then when that was finished, slept on the sofa while the old bathroom was ripped out and turned into a bedroom proper...

... but then he wasn't married...

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 06:53 AM

The alternative to concealing pipes is to use stainless tubing and make a feature of it - I've done that with my electric shower. Copper, if properly cleaned and laquered, can look pretty, too.

As for 'two-up-two-down' - here in Bolton, Lancs, the true TUTD are still commonly seen, though modified to incorporate a 'bathroom' upstairs.

I live on a block of six - the 'middle' four were built as TUTD with no back kitchen, but the two end ones are gigantic three floor houses with an 'outrigger' at the back.

Mine was built as the 'foreman's house', and is the 'posh' one. The downstairs ceilings, including the vestibule, are full decorated complete with plaster cornices. When I moved in there were still vestigial remains of butler's bells...! It was also the first house in the area to have the new-fangled gas lighting.

My kitchen used to be two rooms (long before I moved in), but now is one room 17' long by 11' wide. The floor above has the bathroom and small back bedroom.

My attic has a full staircase, landing and window, which I have converted into an audio studio.

Okay, a bit 'off thread', but what the heck?!

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 08:01 AM

"make sure you are standing inside it, since the plastic deforms more than you would expect. Even better to do the bath with it half-full of water."

So there you are standing in a bath full of water with your plastic sealant in your hand...

Have fun.

I rather thought when I opened the thread it'd be someone saying they'd decided to go back to the old days, and turn the bathroom back into something else - a study or a bedroom.

I rather admire the friend who's got his bathroom combined with a workshop with a workbench that lowers over the bath when it in use.

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: Richard in Manchester
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 08:22 AM

Sorry to disappoint you, McG, but sadly I do need the bathroom!

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: GUEST,Captain Ginger
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 08:32 AM

...and the Building Control officers might have a thing or two to say if there were any electtrical tools in said workshop!

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: folk1e
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 08:12 PM

When you rip the tiles(and the plaster underneath)off you chanel out the wall if it is brick or drill holes if it is "stud". You then put your PLASTIC 15mm pipe in situ untill the tiling is finished. The pipe under the bath can then be bent gently round to the Cold pipe for the bath. You will be using push fittings? Course you will! You can install an inline valve under the bath to be accessable through the bath pannell! You will need to buy the same rating of shower as was in before in order not to overload the cable or the Consumer Unit (you won't believe the mess THAT would cause) And as this is not a major electrical alteration you do not need to be a fully qualified "part P" certificated Sparkie!Of course if you have a Combi boiler you can fit a thermostatic shower running off the hot and cold water direct with NO ELECTRIC at all.
Best of luck mate!

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 12:12 PM

Tell you what come and do ours just so you can practice. I keep threatening to knock down the wall between our toilet and bathroom to make one big room but Geoff won't let me! On our trip to the US and Canada last year I was very envious of the fact that everyone seemed to have a separate laundry room but here in the UK they are not very common and our kitchen doubles as laundry, toolroom etc. My brother used to live in an old 'two up two down' and it was just that. Kitchen diner at the rear, sitting room at front with a staircase leading up to two bedrooms. A bathroom had been added later to the back downstairs.

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 01:05 PM

What is an "electric shower"???

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: Alan Day
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 06:13 PM

An Electric Shower is one that powers the water through the shower instead of the gravity feed system.This is sufficient to remove all your skin from your body and is much favoured by people who enjoy having rings put through various parts of the body and is ideal for removing tatoos including "Love and Hate" on nuckles,crosses on necks etc., but is not recommended for sensitive parts of the body,unless you are into that sort of thing.
It has been likened to standing on a mountain and being hit by ice particles in a force ten gale with no clothes on when you forget to put the hot water on.
I hope this clarifies your question.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Replacing a bathroom (U.K.)
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 06:33 PM

...conversely, it may merely be a shower in which the inlet water passes through a heating matrix which is warmed by electricity drawn from a 40-watt supply.
Mr Day may be thinking of what we in the UK call (with a certain amount of misplaced awe)a "power shower".