Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'

Subject: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: masato sakurai
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 07:35 PM

Eddi Reader sang "Auld Lang Syne" to another tune at opening ceremony of the new Scottish Parliament building in Edinburgh, Oct. 2004 (video is at YouTube) and on her album Eddi Reader Sings The Songs Of Robert Burns. Also versions on Only Celtic Holiday Album You Will Ever Need, and Magpie's Last Month Of The Year. The tune, however, is not the one in The Scots Musical Museum. Does anyone know where it is from?

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 07:52 PM

Masato: I stopped it part-way through. Sorry, I don't recognize the melody. Some site on the 'net said it was the 'melody Burns put to it'. However, I'd take that with a grain.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 08:38 PM

I could only get a small clip and didn't recognize the tune. I always sing it to Burns' original tune as opposed to the popular one and that definitely wasn't it.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 08:40 PM

Best guess is she wrote that tune to go with it, or so changed a trad melody that it's hers now. Sorry, can't be of any help.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 11:47 PM

I've heard several recordings that use that tune - I think the Tannahill Weavers might be one?

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Murray on Saltspring
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 01:06 AM

It isn't the original, and it isn't the second one set [very successfully] to it by Thomson. It's a good tune, though I must say the singer delivers it in [to my ears] an awful would-be-up-to-date 'style'. Isn't there info on those records mentioned??

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: masato sakurai
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 02:45 AM

Thanks, meself. Eddi says it's the "Tannahill Weavers version" (from here).

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 05:07 AM

Ha! Burns and Big Edna OBE. No. They still don't mix. The oil and water of singing and song. ...and is she Jackie Bird's sister? ...Or is she Jackie Bird? You never see them both at the same time.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 12:20 PM

Is the "original" the tune that Rod Paterson sings on his songs from the bottom drawer CD? I certainly prefer it to the more well known one.

Didn't like The ER tune, although I stopped the video fairly quickly so maybe didn't give it a fair chance.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 12:32 PM

She is copying some of the terrible singers who distort the "Star-Spangled Banner" at the beginning of sporting events.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: MMario
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 12:47 PM

The tune on Magpie's album and the ER album is the one used at many ren-faires. How authentic it is I don't know.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Murray on Saltspring
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 01:14 PM

Okay, but what do the T Weavers say about it? And has anyone taken Eddi to task for using that tune at Holyrood, for God's sake??

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 01:51 PM

There are three tunes in Johnson's SMM associated with Auld Lang syne, the first two are quite different to each other and to the one normally used now which appears with the title 'O can ye labor lea, young man' (sic) and was originally called 'I fee'd a lad in Michaelmas'.
I suspect like Peace, that Eddi Reader sang a rather free melody of her own which I personally didn't like, before going into the 'I fee'd a lad..' melody which was familiar to the audience.
I have just heard the Tannahill Weavers' version of 'The Braes of Balquidder' and the melody they sing to the verse is dire! I suspect they fudged it to make it sound more 'folksie'. They also mangle Tannahill's original words. Very sad.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 11:53 PM

its the folk process, innit?

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Genie
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 05:19 PM

Eddi Reader's tune arrangement seems to be so stylized and modulated that it's hard for me to tell if it's exactly the same tune as "KelticKev" plays and sings here:
Auld Lang Syne to Burns's "intended" tune.
In any case I prefer the way Kev sings it, and I'd probably prefer that tune if I weren't so used to the one used by Guy Lombardo and so many others.

Anyone know if, and how, Burns communicated a tune preference for this poem?

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 05:40 PM

Eddi Reader's version of Auld Lang Syne

I have never heard this tune in my life before, either to Auld Lang Syne or anything else.

KelticKev' version linked to by Genie is regarded as the "authentic" tune although you would get lynched if you tried to sing Auld Lang Syne to that tune at the end of a function, when everybody is looking forward to forming a circle and skipping in and out with interlinked hands.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 05:43 PM

I did one last year, which I still stand by despite the odd glitch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_3T-WCRX10

As for the tune - this is the tune I've known all my life & was used by everyone, even Sun Ra.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 06:55 PM

I think the appalling Eddi has simply got the older tune horribly garbled.

I heard that clip some time ago when somebody on Footstompin linked to it. I could have done without being reminded...

Rod Paterson was on the radio singing the older tune last night. Great singer that he is, there is a reason why the "Miller's Wedding"/Rosina" tune took over - it just works better - and he didn't persuade me to see it any differently from the hundreds of millions of people who know it the usual way.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:32 PM

Sedayne, in your video you commit the same fault as 99% of the singers of Auld Lang Syne.

It's not "Auld Lang ZZZYNE" , it's Auld Lang Syne (pronounced "sine" as in the trigonometric ratio..)

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 08:26 PM

ZZZZZ- and so to bed.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 12:50 AM

Of course the S should be pronounced as SSS, not ZZZ. I wonder how many people who have sung it all their lives realise that the title simply means, in conventional English, "Old Long Since" - i.e., to paraphrase freely, "the old times that we all remember"?

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 12:55 AM

Can't see, Sweeney O'P, where your tune & text differ gr8ly from the 'conventional', except sung much slower, with occasional interpolated accidentals, and 'my dear' replaced by 'my jo'. - Regards & HNY, Michael

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 01:02 AM

... moreover, all that E Reader was singing at Scottish Parliament opening was a sort of descant to the 'conventional' tune, as shown at end when the choir, orchestra & audience joined in with the 'conventional' tune while she, amplified, went on singing her 'descant' version along with them.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Genie
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 02:15 AM

To me, Eddie Reader seemed to be giving - to whatever basic tune she was starting from - the contemporary pop/r&b diva treatment, whereby the singer tweaks & twists a tune to "make it their own" and maybe show off some vocal muscle power or gymnastics in the process. The kind of thing American singers are way to eager to do to The Star Spangled Banner (that old British drinking tune).


I agree that at most New Year's Eve parties people expect the more commonly sung tune, and I do think it's "catchier" (easier to remember the exact melody) than the older one. But if it's not a sing-along and not midnight on 12-31, I think most audiences would appreciate hearing the older one.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:07 AM

Sedayne, in your video you commit the same fault as 99% of the singers of Auld Lang Syne.

So 99% of singers are wrong are they? I'm Irish-Northumbrian, brought up with strong personal & familial links with Scotland. This is how my folks sang it, and how I sing it now - as most people do, as you say. So think of it not as a fault but a very essential variance.

Can't see, Sweeney O'P, where your tune & text differ gr8ly from the 'conventional',

What I meant was that I use the conventional tune, rather than the others discussed in this (& other) threads which will never carry the same folkloric & empirical depth of meaning no matter how much more authentic they might be considered in certain circles.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 04:15 AM

99% of people spell "supersede" as "supercede" ....doesn't make it correct, nor even a very essential variance.

The aggregate of individual ignorance does not constitute collective wisdom.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 04:41 AM

The aggregate of individual ignorance does not constitute collective wisdom.

I think we should have that on the Folk Police t-shirts as being typical of the pedantic pomposity that runs, somewhat ironically, contrary to the very spirit of folk music & folklore, but not alas, to the mindset that finds itself drawn to such things. Otherwise, I'm a linguistic & cultural pragmatist - we are what we are and we do what we do. Just as there is no ignorance, there is no correctness; all is variance, change and very worthy of attention, respect and celebration.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Marje
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 05:20 AM

The Scottish household in which I grew up and all their (Irish) friends and neighbours always pronounced it Syne, not Zyne, which I've only ever heard from English people. I'm inclined to believe, without being pedantic, that the Scots know how to pronounce their own language whereas the English have no idea what they're singing, and often get it wrong. Just being English and in the majority doesn't make it right, as the Z sound removes the word further from the related word "since", thus clouding the meaning further. Many (most?) English people pronounce "Loch" as "Lock" but that doesn't make it correct or even a sensible alternative, as "Lock" has other meanings.

I hated what Eddie Reader does on that video and can't imagine why the Scottish Parliament chose her with her mangled tune and R&B-style delivery. When she says "Join in!" you can see the blank panic on their faces, and then relief as they realise the tune has changed to a familiar one. There are so many Scottish singers who could have done a decent job of it.

The older (Burns) tune is never going to replace the more familiar one at midnight on Hogmanay, but if you want people to listen to the words, there's a lot to be said for introducing a different tune. The Burns tune is lovely and more reflective, fitting the sentiments of the song.

Marje

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 06:22 AM

Common mistakes, yes 'mistakes' Suibhne, are to pronounce 's' as 'Z' and to add 'for the sake of'.
The 'Burns' tune of course predates Burns by a long chalk as does the title. The 'modern' tune was set to his lyrics after he died. he knew the tune as 'I feed a lass at Michelmas' (or variations on that title' but chose the older melody. It interesting to note that two of his best know songs, 'Auld lang Syne' and 'My Love is like a Red, Red, Rose' are set to tunes he knew but chose not to use.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 06:42 AM

All very interesting I'm sure, but wholly irrelevant to the empirical experience of the song for millions of people worldwide. Mistakes? Not at all - you might try thinking of it as one of the more evident manifestations of The Folk Process, rather than as yet another excuse for tedious pronouncements on Folk Correctness. I am English - we have various non-English words in our language which I'm sure we don't pronounce correctly not because we are mistaken in doing so, rather according to the happy pragmatic principles of common usage.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 07:17 AM

LOL

Suibhne O'Piobaireachd blithely dismissing Jim McLean...*shake of head*

Reminds me of a Looney Tunes cartoon I saw many years ago when a gnat challenged an elephant.

The gnat got squashed as I recollect ...

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Marje
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 08:49 AM

Oh dear. Must get better reading glasses. I read that (Jim, 3 posts up) as "I feel a lass at Michelmas", which is probably not one of the variations referred to.

Narje

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 09:02 AM

Well, they say that Burns was a success in every field he went into ..

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 01:40 PM

More digression from "Tune Info."
Supercede, as well as supersede, both have long histories, going back at least to the 15th C., in spite of the fact that the 'sede' comes from sedere. 'Supercede' is erroneous but, as S O'P notes, common usage should not be sneered at.

(I wonder, does M M'L use the spelling recognize (OED) or recognise, as do 90 some-odd per cent of people in UK)

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 02:01 PM

Saying "zyne" is a good way to get older Scots speakers ticked off. Since most other people don't care either way, it makes sense to go along with "syne".

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 02:01 PM

Q, the Scottish word 'syne' is equivalent to the English word 'since' and neither have a 'z'. I can accept that pronouncing 'syne' as 'zyne' is a non Scottish usage, hence the suggested 90% of people in the UK but allow us in Scotland to comment on (not sneer at) the incorrect pronunciation. The example of 'loch' and 'lock' has already been posted. I think the latter is an inability of some English people to sound the fricative but the former is just laziness and an inabilty to accept helpful advice on how the word should be pronounced.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Chris in Portland
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 02:06 PM

There is a show on the BBC Radio 7 on the history of ALS!
More than I wanted to know, but looks good.
Blwyddyn newydd dda, Chris

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 02:32 PM

I do realise that "recognise" can also be spelled "recognize", even in the UK, and I do not apologise for preferring the standard British version.

When in Rome ...

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 02:36 PM

"Standard"? Set by whom? Do you not recognize the OED as the one, the only, true dictionary of English wordology?

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:56 PM

"The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) is a comprehensive multi-volume dictionary published by the Oxford University Press. The OED is generally regarded as the definitive dictionary of Modern English, especially British English. It has 2.5 million quotations under 300,000 headwords.

Although a British institution, the OED has a policy of attempting to record all the known uses and variants of a word in the varieties of world English, even obscure and outdated one, hence also lists American variants of spelling or meanings e.g.,recognize/recognise."

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:59 PM

So 99% of singers are wrong are they?

In short, yes.

My Scots mother and my Scots grandparents were always very insistent that we sing "Syne" not "Zyne". It is a Scots word and you should accept that the Scots know how to pronounce their own words.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Genie
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 04:19 PM

As Marje said,
"The older (Burns) tune is never going to replace the more familiar one at midnight on Hogmanay, but if you want people to listen to the words, there's a lot to be said for introducing a different tune. The Burns tune is lovely and more reflective, fitting the sentiments of the song."

And I do agree that if I tried to use the more familiar ALS tune for a New Year's party most people would balk at the idea. However I don't think even we Yanks would bat an eye if I correctly pronounced "syne" (with an "s").

There are plenty of words borrowed from one language to another culture which then are so commonly mispronounced that the new pronunciation becomes "correct" for that new culture. Very few French-borrowed "cognates" are pronounced by English-speaking people the way the French would, for example.   Still, if I'm singing a song that has French words in it, I try to pronounce them the French way.

On the subject of the pronunciation of "Auld lang syne," though, there's something I've puzzled about for years.   In an old American movie -- I believe it was the Jane Froman story, "With A Song In My Heart" -- the song "Auld Lang Syne" is sung but the singer (if that's the movie, it's actually Jane Froman dubbing her own voice) sings "Auld ang syne."
You can't hear the "l" in "lang."
Does anyone know why?
Is there some regional dialect that would pronounce it that way?

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 04:49 PM

If you check the OED, Murray, entries are given under -ize for recognize, etc.; it is the more accepted spelling.
COGNIZE- "prevalence of the ending -ize over -ise presumably due to the influence of the large class of verbs having etymological -ize."

Yes, the OED tries to be comprehensive, now including Australian, New Zealander, Canadian and other regional usage.

Syne is northern English dialect as well as Scottish, and is derived from Middle English, a contracted form of sethen, SITHEN; perhaps influenced by Old Norman. OED. The 's' sound is given.

I wouldn't presume to comment on the dialectical pronunciations.

Subject: RE: Tune Info Req: 'Auld Lang Syne'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 05:06 PM

Syne can also mean 'then' and the expression 'sinsyne' meaning 'since then' was often used in my youth in Paisley, west Scotland. A 'z' sound in the middle would be totally anathema to my ears.