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Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Villain?
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Subject: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 08 Jan 07 - 12:17 PM One of those rare people who, whatever his past and his passionate belief in the cause and traditions into which he had been born, was able to understand something of the other side's point of view. A courageous guy - too many progressive leaders in both of Northern Ireland's communities were murdered by diehards in their own ranks. Ulster Unionism is an uglier beast without him. BBC report
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician From: GUEST,maire aine Date: 08 Jan 07 - 02:04 PM Very sorry to hear this. He seemed like one of the people with some common sense. M. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician From: GUEST Date: 08 Jan 07 - 04:26 PM You forgot the 'BS' prefix, Peter.... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Jan 07 - 07:04 PM He always struck me as a hopeful sign that sooner or later the sad divisions in Northern Ireland, and ultimately in the whole of Ireland, will be healed. Now is the very time when he could have played an especially important part. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician From: diesel Date: 08 Jan 07 - 07:17 PM I'm from the Republic of Ireland, would consider a united ireland to be the way forward. David Ervine was a unionist who finally gave took up arms and fought for what he believed. Since then he has contributed so much, in my opinion, to the peace process by bringing reason and sound argument on behalf of unionists and with a forward looking viewpoint. He should be remembered with respect from all sides of our communities. I'm sorry to hear of his passing, and regret that true peace did not yet arrive in his liftime. RIP - David Ervine. Diesel. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician From: cobra Date: 08 Jan 07 - 07:25 PM In an ironic way words fail me. Ervine was one of the earliest Unionists to recognise that the old Protestant ascendancy was a busted flush. He was one of the first of his tradition to embrace the need for change and the absolute pre-requisite for dialogue if the Six Counties were to be given a seat at the big table. His ability to embrace and use the media as a tool contributed in no small measure to the advances which made the Good Friday Agreement possible. Sadly he could not win over the more neanderthal elements of Unionism. His contribution will likely only become truly apparent some way down the line. May his legacy be a fitting one. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician From: Den Date: 09 Jan 07 - 08:38 AM I believe Ervine was a man who had gone to the wall too so to speak and realised that peaceful negotiation was the only way forward. Sadly I don't see anyone else adopting that viewpoint in Unionist politics at the moment. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 09 Jan 07 - 05:35 PM I thought "Obit" was a legit prefix for obits, regardless of whether they are music related, and that the Mudcat Authorities then decided which should remain above the line. (Except there is no line in my case - all threads are mixed up together.) Have I got this wrong? |
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Subject: BS: Obit: David Ervine. Hero or Villain From: GUEST Date: 10 Jan 07 - 09:52 AM This guy David Ervine who was involved in Northern Ireland Peace Process died a few days ago. He is a convicted terrorist turned peace maker. All political parties including labour have paid their respects to him. Who is best to find a solution in situations like this, recycled terrorists or politicians ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: David Ervine. Hero or Villain From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland Date: 10 Jan 07 - 10:03 AM at Least he turned his life around unlike some of those in Northern Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician From: JennyO Date: 10 Jan 07 - 11:03 AM No Peter. That's my understanding too. Nevermind the GUESTS - even if they do wink. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician From: mustradclub Date: 10 Jan 07 - 12:05 PM I actually met David Ervine during my time as an Irish studies student at the University of North London. Ervine came to give a lecture there one of the great things about that university is that spokespeople from various political groups come to speak there including Bernadette Mcaliskey, Ken Mcguiness of the Ulster unionist party and many others I along with many of the students formed a good opinion of Ervine. This despite the fact that many of us were not inclined to be impressed by unionist or loyalist arguements. We came away convinced of the mans sincerety and were more optimistic about the possibility of peace in Northern Ireland. Perhaps what impressed the students most was that Ervine was quickly persuaded to leave the after lecture wine and cheese party to join some of us in the pub accross the road. A good man gone |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Villain? From: Felipa Date: 11 Jan 07 - 09:43 AM as you may gather from some of the above messages, Ervine was a Loyalist political figure who was well-respected by many in the Nationalist community so I was really shocked to hear of the jeering by some of the crowd when Glentoran football club held a minute of silence in Ervine's memory at a recent match though it was nice to hear that Ervine enjoyed watching Glentoran play just the day before he died |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Villain? From: Scrump Date: 11 Jan 07 - 10:07 AM I thought "Obit" was a legit prefix for obits, regardless of whether they are music related, and that the Mudcat Authorities then decided which should remain above the line. (Except there is no line in my case - all threads are mixed up together.) Have I got this wrong? Whether you have got it wrong or not, I don't know, but IMO it is (or should be) wrong. I would have thought only obits for musical artists should be above the line, and politicians etc. below it (unless they have some sort of legitimate connection with music - like Blair, he plays the guitar doesn't he? I'll get me coat) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Villain? From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland Date: 11 Jan 07 - 10:10 AM but what do expect there are people in Northern Ireland who just don't want to change, and some of them are memebers of Mudcat |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Vill From: Wolfgang Date: 11 Jan 07 - 10:50 AM I don't seem to have read these threads (Mudcat members against change) and I read most of them even if I rarely post. I hear a unison chorus of Mudcat members explicitely welcoming change towards peace. When it comes to judging the past the chorus becomes polyphonous and even loud but that's natural after so many years of fighting. I have a deep admiration for all people who have given up armed fight in exchange for political fight for equal rights. So he is a hero in my eyes. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Villain? From: Den Date: 11 Jan 07 - 12:33 PM Tom Hamilton why don't you go snipe at Irish Mudcat members on some other thread, this one is not the place. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Villain? From: oggie Date: 11 Jan 07 - 06:03 PM I remember him talking about class and religion in NI politics. The gist was that he had more in common with Sinn Fein members than with the prevailing Unionist leaders, that his experience as a working class Protestant was nearer that of a working class Catholic than that of his own middle class Unionist leaders EXCEPT for their religion. In this way I think he was in many ways ahead of his time in NI. oggie |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Villain? From: Felipa Date: 12 Jan 07 - 08:14 AM Very busy in the days just before he died, Ervine both attended a football match and worked on an article about the peace process for the "Belfast Telegraph". You can read the article,"Let's finish the job", published 9 Jan 2007, at www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-nation al/article2137829.ece see also at www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk and as of this date free to view: obituary by David McKittrick published 9 Jan. and "Decades after they met in jail, Gusty Spence remembers his protegé" by Brian Rowan, published 12 Jan 2007. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Villain? From: Den Date: 12 Jan 07 - 01:00 PM Oggie, very true. If only more people saw it that way. The war in N. Ireland had more to do with caste than religion. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Villain? From: Felipa Date: 15 Jan 07 - 01:14 PM now we can further justify this thread being in the music, not the bs, section: on his folk music programme on Downtown Radio (DTR) last Sat. night, presenter Tommy Sands (himself a folk performer of some renown)recalled that at social gatherings David Ervine "would sing at the drop of a hat" and he played a recording of Ervine performing a song about "leaving Dalriada". |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Vill From: paddymac Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:03 PM Ervine was very fortunate to meet Gusty Spence while in Long Kesh. The mark for both of them is not what they were, but how far they had come. Evolution of one's political views, in a direction at odds with the herd mentality, is never an easy task. Ervine seems to have been coinsidered a good representative for his constinuents, as well as for the broader classification of working class protestantism. I believe history will speak kindly of him. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Villain? From: guitar Date: 16 Jan 07 - 06:58 AM he was a great man |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Vill From: GUEST Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:45 AM Wolfgang many Irish mudcat members called for peace and had it thrown in their faces. Think you will agree. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Villain? From: Paul from Hull Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:46 AM Did they Guest? By whom? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Villain? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Jan 07 - 09:11 AM Not on this forum. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Vill From: GUEST,T|ir Chonaill Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:35 AM All Irish Mudcatters want peace, Keith. Peace With Justice. Justice is unfortunately one Human Right you Brits constantly sought, but never dispensed. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Vill From: John MacKenzie Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:38 AM Justice like drilling kneecaps Tirconnall? G. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Vill From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:58 AM Justice like Civil and Human Rights, John. Like all that 'One Man One Vote', shit. Like Burntollet, Bloody Sunday, and the rest. Not this 'Croppy Lie Down' nonsense. That kind of approach never worked. Peace With Justice, Giok. (... it's an English word, John. You are fluent in your own language, aren't you?) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Vill From: John MacKenzie Date: 16 Jan 07 - 12:15 PM It would appear to mean different things to different people! G. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Villain? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Jan 07 - 01:37 PM Tir, again I feel you are accusing me of something. If you are, and it has any relevance to David Ervine, please say it clearly. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Vill From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Jan 07 - 08:24 AM Here we go again... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Villain? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Jan 07 - 08:30 AM Before you refreshed McG. it was only 5 hours from disappearing! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Vill From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill Date: 17 Jan 07 - 05:27 PM Oh that's rich, Keith. A man who will have no compunction about refreshing long dead threads, complaining about one who wishes to add his few bob to the conversation while it still breathes life! 'Relevance'? Since when has that ever factored into your posts? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Villain? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Jan 07 - 03:17 AM Tir, "Here we go again" is not even a bob's worth of contribution. It just gave you an excuse to renew your irrelevant (to the thread) attack on me. And is this what you are accusing me of? 1 That my posts are not relevant. 2 That I refresh long dead threads. 1 is your opinion. It would carry more weight if you gave examples and did not lie. 2 is a straight forward lie. I do not do that. Why Tir? What is it really that you have against me? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Villain? From: Captain Ginger Date: 18 Jan 07 - 04:15 AM I fear it's because Tìr Chonaill is cut from the same cloth as the No Surrender Billy Boys, and is unwilling to move forward. Some perceived slight by a squaddie back in the mists of whenever has festered away and poisoned his view of the British as a whole. It's a form of racism - substitute Paki for Brit and you get the true picture of where he's coming from. It's not you personally, Keith; he'd be touchy/picky/volatile with anyone on your side of the water. Sadly, folk like Tìr Chonaill are a part of the problem and belong to the past not the future. Until they can find 'closure', or at the very least open their eyes the way Ervine did - or even fade gently raving into the old folks' homes - the peace process will remain fragile. The bigots of the DUP need little enough excuse to screw things up, and the rantings of people like Tìr Chonaill are actually manna from heaven to Paisley's goons. You can hear the mantra, "See, we told you so - those taigs'll never accept change. No reason to move on..." |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Villain? From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh Date: 18 Jan 07 - 10:31 AM Further to "oggie" on 11th January, I have read exactly the same points (re. social class &c) made by both Brendan Behan and Bernadette Devlin. Mind you, they made the points a generation ago. No doubt James Connolly will provide even clearer evidence that, far from being ahead of his time in the Six Counties, the late lamented was merely one of the less bone-headed intransigents among the "Loyalist Community". |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Vill From: GUEST Date: 18 Jan 07 - 11:19 AM David Ervine was a combatant who followed the path to peace. We can well never fully comprehend the thinking of such people. We should admire such people not discredit their memory. I do not support paramilitaries of any kind I wish to add. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: David Ervine, NI politician-Hero or Vill From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill Date: 18 Jan 07 - 07:00 PM What the devil are you waffling on about, Ginger? You also seem to suffer from Keithitis What makes you think I don't like you, Keith? David Ervine spent most of his time fighting the Monitoring Commission, while the IRA had long decommissioned. Thanks for your input though, both of you |
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