Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 10:51 PM

Jeez! I didn't even get a chance to vote, and now the polls are closed! Story of my life.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From:
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 09:10 PM

I do not know who Billy Bragg is, But if he is a Marxist-Leninist as someone wrote, or (heaven help us!) a liberal, then I see no problem with him recording thw works of Woody Guthrie who was for at least part of his life a member of the American Communist Party. I mean this from an ideological standpoint, as I can make no judgement on performance.

When I began this thread to rag [that's not PC is it?] on James Taylor, I had no idea it woul catch on as it did. I really had "folk" singers in mind, but it spread wildly. I also had in mind artists widely known, and here have found some obscure ones...but that's OK, it's part of the fun.

Thank you all for your participation. I officially declare this thread closed. **sound of gavel banging**--John (not jon)

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 07:22 PM

My ether coagulator just picked up a message from a Vogon fleet currently laying waste to a small planet in the crab nebula. Message is as follows:

"This is Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz and I am ordering you to set up an evening of poetry. We destoyed your planet once and we can do it AGAIN."

catspaw

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 06:25 PM

Or how about a night designing those fiddly bits around the fiords with Slartibartfast?

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Pete M
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 05:23 PM

I think you are all truly truly horrible to some wonderful artists especially those lovely new age celtic singer songwriters who share their innermost torment with us. To make amends I am proposing a new award ceremony where everyone gets to win just to show how loving, caring, and just, just, together we all are.

Can't make up my mind if the prize should be front row tickets to a Disaster Area concert, or an evening of Vogon poetry.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Dr John
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 11:59 AM

ddw of Winsor, Yes I agree with every point about Billy Bragg, truely awful love-me-I'm-a-liberal attitude and sings like a yob. Great pity he did the Woody Guthrie stuff; pity it wasn't ... new thread needed here. For a UK singer I'd vote Jez Lowe, excellent singer, instrumentalist and song writer - socialist in the broad sense without stupidity or winging.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: John Galt
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 11:21 AM

Having waded through this thread in it's entirety I would like to declare that I would savor giving ear to James Taylor and Neil Young on loop for sempiternity just to avoid one more tune by Steely Dan or Hall & Oats.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: AlistairUK
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 10:53 AM

aaaaargh is no thread sacred!!???

and that should've read "... a pit of burning banjos"

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 09:43 AM

Give me a pint of Youngs, please barman. *smiles*

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: AlistairUK
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 06:11 AM

aaargh !!! ah say...ah say...aaaaaargh!!!

Oh Billy thy genius is still intact in my eyes. Oh these heretics shall surely roast over a bit of burning banjos.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Sean MacRuaraidh
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 05:01 AM

AlistairUK,

you are right and I am wrong.

Dave Swarbick was in fact playing for the Ian Campbell Folk Band and not Pentangle.

Please forgive me (to err is human).

Sean MacRuaraidh

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 01:53 AM

Ronn I liked the quotes, especially the sacred cow burger idea.

ddw

I think what you say about Billy Bragg is all true, he has been incredibly over-rated, but I think we should bear in mind that for his generation, he was a lone voice and their only real hope. I think his heart is in the right place and I have a lot of affection for him, as long as I don't have to listen to him singing.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: ddw in windsor
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 01:26 AM

I can't believe I've made it all the way through this thread and nobody has mentioned Janis Joplin. I always said you could get the same degree of musicality by poking a pig in the ass with a hatpin.

Or Gordon Lightfoot, who has written god knows how many lyrics, but only two tunes; you can tell them apart because one is fast and one is slow.

I won't even go into the list of pop screamers, whiners and heavy breathers who run me up a wall.....

Oh, one other. Billy Bragg. I heard him interviewed on CBC a while back because he had been chosen to do a retrospective on Woody Guthrie << by WG's family, no less. Couldn't believe it. The guy is awful; can't sing, can't play and has the social attitudes of a truly wingeing moron. I think choosing a warmed-over Marxist-Leninist to present the works of WG is insulting both to WG's memory and talent AND to the intelligence of his fans and fans-to-be.

cheers, everybody

ddw

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 01:17 AM

Well my word Ronn...talk about your sacred cow potshots!!! I've been saying for years that there are no new "famous quotes" since the Peter Principle...and I just love reading quotes!!! So many that speak to the point in a far better way than I ever could, so why reinvent the wheel? But there are so few new ones. I am humbled at your genius and I have every intent of using yours, with your name attached.

Seriously, well stroked!!!

catspaw

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Ronn
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 11:52 PM

Lessons learned:

1)In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane-- Mark Twain

2)Sacred cows make the tastiest burgers if you cook 'em just right-- Reverend Billy C Wirtz

3)For every ill-informed opinion there is an equal and opposite ill-informed opinion (including my own)-- Ronn Gilbert

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: AlistairUK
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 03:51 PM

Doc.- he got on my tits 'sometimes' is the operative word here. He particularly got on my tits wjhen he spent interminable lengths of time tuning up when nobody but him could tell the difference.

Amateur Gospel: right there in the HH Guide between Anal probes of Uranus and Ashholes: the detritus of the universe.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 03:44 PM

Amateur Gospel, sounds like a torture method from The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I don't even want to think about it.

Steve

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Bert
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 03:34 PM

Trouble is if I don't like something I don't even bother to remember who was playing it.

I belonged to a songwriter's club when I lived in Alabama and I tell you you don't know what BAD is until you've had to politely listen to an evening of 'amateur gospel'

Bert.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Dr John
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 03:28 PM

AlistairUK. Yeah, I'll look up Rory McCleod. I was listening to Folk on Two because it's better than the Mike Harding program, sorry "show". Why does Martin Carthy "get on your tits sometimes"? I went through the whole lot recently and find it good honest stuff. OK he has let a synthesizer creep in for a time and then creep out again and he tackles some crap contemporary material which hasn't undergone the folk process, that is, been modified or rejected I guess I mean. But mostly good honest stuff.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: AlistairUK
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 03:13 PM

I don't know somw of the 'live'performances of some of the people mentioned here are pretty dead. I rememeber seeing Christy at Cambridge just after his last heart attack a few years ago and I must say he is still one of the best performers that are doing the rounds today.

Sham:If you've got a new album ie during the last 6 years bung it on a tape and pass it along to a poor impoverished ex-pat...please please beg beg beg.

Pathetic Al

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 02:50 PM

For those that do not know, i.e. those that are younger and not expected to be as wise as me (Kat).

Rory MaCleod is probably the finest 'gob iron' player I have seen, a great live performer and a man.
Rory Block is a blues guitarist/singer and a woman.

A word for John Denver. I used to think he was a bit 'naff' but I went to see him play live in the UK, a few years before he died and he was great. Worked hard, put on a good show, his voice was so strong and the backing band was first rate.

I know that these kinds of thread are useful in giving the usually polite and restrained Mudcatter's a chance to 'vent spleen' but I think that all the performers mentioned here (except of course the dead ones) should only really be judged on a live performance and be given the benefit of the doubt until we have the chance to see them play live.

On that subject, I heard a live CD of Christy Moore today and I still remain to be convinced.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: AlistairUK
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 02:17 PM

Rory McCleod!! you don't know who Rory McCleod is?!!!
*Sigh* Okay, he plays harmonica and tons of other stuff and sings his own stuff...the best one man show in the world. Look for his album Farewell Welfare and listen and weep.

And what were you doing listening to Folk on Two? My God I'd rather have none of it on the radio than listen to that.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Dr John
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 02:12 PM

AlistairUK. No it's Pete Morton I used to turn off on Folk on Two; it's Dylan who cobbled together Guthrie phrases. PS who is Rory McCleod?

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: AlistairUK
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 02:12 PM

Sham:

No you'd probably get a bleedin' huge harmonica forced where the monkey shoved his nut.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 02:10 PM

Ah, jeez...I guess I must be passe'! Have to admit I don't pay attention to names of artists and don't know who some of the people are that you all are talking about, BUT:

Beatles' White Album and Sgt. Peppers, as well as Abbey Road, are not only great favourites but capture, in my memory, all that I loved and enjoyed of growing up in the 60's, along with many others.

And, John Denver some beautiful songs and I don't mind his singing them, sometimes. Country Roads was the first song my youngest learned off the radio.

'Course none of us will totally agree to anything said in this thread!****grin***

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 02:07 PM

Alistair

If you rip the bollocks off Rory McCleod, would you get Rory Block?

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 12:11 PM

Lonesome EJ, you must be a mind reader in that I fully agree with everything in your post. I was a teenager in Toronto (Rush's hometown) when they first broke. Couldn't stand them then, can't stand them now. They might be fantastic, but when Geddy Lee starts to sing I have to change stations immediately. Sounds like a cat in a blender. Punks with lessons.

Earl, I'd never thought about your point, but it sure is accurate. Stretching it a little bit, Styx is a river/place and certainly can be added to your list.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: o'hanrahan
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 10:05 AM

Ditto. I love Pete Morton.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: AlistairUK
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 08:03 AM

DrJohn:

Oh my we are gonna get in a pissing contest here. Pete Morton was (lets face it, it's been a few years since he was the Young Turk of the British Acoustic scene) is still one of the best singer songwriters that Britain has ever produced. If you think that he has cobbled together Woody songs then this is obviously not the same Pete Morton and I forgive you, but the thing is he has never written a song that is remotely Woody-like. Guthrie is Guthrie, Morton is Morton. If you listen to the simple power of his songs 'Lucy' and the anger of his earlier stuff like 'Babe of the World' they may have the fire of Woody but he is distinctly british and none of the "simplicity" that Woody you ( who buy the way used to cobble together traditional, other peoples and his own songs and tunes).

Jesus you;ll be ripping the bollocks off of Rory McCleod next!

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Earl
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 07:53 AM

Lonesome EJ, As a general rule, any band named after a place, or any individual whose last name is the name of a place, will suck. This includes America, Kansas, Boston, Chicago and John Denver. The exception is Irving Berlin. America, of course, produced the worst lyrics ever heard on this planet.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Helen
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 01:50 AM

steve t,

I have to confess that I do quietly and unobtrusively exit from almost all performances of poetry and also from some singer-songwriters' performances. My problem is that I tune the words out so much, and if there is no music or the music is repetitive and uninspiring I tend to forget that anyone is performing at all and start making conversation with people. I figure it's much more polite for me to exit gracefully than to hang around and make a nuisance of myself.

Helen

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 01:21 AM

What?? The Beatles being dismissed as garbage?? What about Sergeant Pepper? Abbey Road? Rubber Soul? My friends those were cutting edge pieces of work. And I'll brook no cheap shots at Van Morrison- he is one o' the Greats. And Elvis- most of his pre-army stuff was great seminal rock n roll and rockabilly.

Now let's talk crappy. How about Rush? Got to be the most irritating band that ever polluted the airwaves. Geddy Lee gets my vote for producing the greatest number of shrill and annoying sounds with his mouth of any singer. And there is Aerosmith, or Rolling Stones Lite . I don't know who was worse, Styx or Kansas. Sometimes I think they were the same guys, switching names to confuse their vapid and pimply clientele. America ..."I understand you been runnin from the man who goes by the name of the Sandman...He rules the Sky like an Eagle in the Eye of a Hurricane that's Abandoned." Need I really say more.Eric Clapton peaked with the guitar break on Crossroads, then headed downhill to his lowest point thusfar, If I could change the World . And Leonard Cohen should not be allowed to talk, much less sing.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: McMusic
Date: 29 Mar 99 - 01:13 AM

O'Hanrahan, as far as my venom goes--I'm over it now. Petticoat Junction on the TV really helped! Actually, I really didn't mean to get so "arrrgghh!" about it all, but I swear I cringe when I see what's dominating the airwaves these days--and I'm a baby boomer too! And then to hear someone like Jewel called "folksinger"! Lord, I'm about to start ranting again. And Earl, I wonder what will happen when Ms. Rondstadt decides she wants to do a hip-hop cd. If people think rap songs are obscene--just wait 'til she wins the Grammy for that category!!!!!

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: RWilhelm
Date: 28 Mar 99 - 11:45 AM

McMusic, I totally agree about award shows and Grammies in particular. These days I watch because sometimes it's fun just to sit there and get angry for four hours. Linda Rondstadt must have some pull with those people. Several years ago she was up for the best Spanish album (first time that category was televised.) The other contestants were legitimate Latin-American musicians with names the announcers couldn't pronounce. I don't have to tell you who won.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 28 Mar 99 - 11:42 AM

Helen,

Very few people see colours when they hear musical notes. Some people do. I can't remember what the phenomenom is called. Kinesthesia, I thought, but now I think that's wrong. It sometimes runs in families. The colours seen don't usually match between different people. I remember one woman (on TV) describing a scat singer as producing wonderful moving patterns of light. There was one famous work by a composer who wrote in the names of the colours for different parts, and people with this talent/ability/condition sometimes like to speculate which composers of the past shared their talent/ability/condition.

For myself, I think I'm most sensitive to the emotional thrust of VOCALS, but other parts of my brain become bored if they're not satisified with the sense of the lyrics or the feel of the music. If I listen to a symphony, I simply cannot concentrate on the music. After a few minutes, I generally start to think about all sorts of things, occasionally concentrating purely on the music again, but more often thinking about who-knows-what.

I've run into many people who strive to censor all the music around them. I remember one guy who got angry (he'd stomp out of the bar to go have a smoke) whenever anything from the 70s was played -- a decade which he claimed had produced absolutely no good music. I don't enjoy the company of people like that. I can't tell to what extent some of the people here have their tongue in cheek, or really would prefer to wish away music that has brought emotional release to so many others.

Helen, it's nice to see someone who's trying to reconcile others' differences :-) but the people I've met personally who routinely shoot down other people's music don't seem to care that other people may experience the music differently than themselves.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Mar 99 - 11:34 PM

Great post Helen...we are on exactly the same page. I taught school for a few years and these things are major topics in teacher education. Again good post and thanks.

catspaw

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Helen
Date: 27 Mar 99 - 07:14 PM

Catspaw,

I have been attending a training course in the last few weeks about training other people, and I was reminded in that course about different people having a different focus on learning and also on life generally.

Some people are visual (like to see things, draw pictures & diagrams, have to see it in writing, not just hear it etc), some people are audio (have to hear it for it to sink in) and some people are kinesthetic (they have to touch things, make a learning experience tangible). Another difference is the way each person's brain functions. Some people are more left-brained (verbal, analytical, factual) and some people are more right brained (conceptual, visual, interested in possibilities and ideas). In both of these categorisations you can find people who are balanced between the different types, too.

I think that theories like this explain it more than whether we are male or female, but there are people who reckon that a higher proportion of men or women fit into one particular category.

I am fairly well balanced between left and right brained approaches, with slightly more of a swing to the right brain, but my main focus (out of the first set of categories) is visual. I tend to *see* the music in my head and then feel it (emotionally) more than hearing the words of the songs. By *seeing* I mean that I imagine ways of creating animations of colour, shapes and movement which fit the complex interweaving of the sounds of the music. This is why I like Vivaldi and JS Bach and other Baroque musicians - they use complex interweavings of sounds and timing etc.

I don't think that this completely explains the differences in people's appreciation of singers and musicians, but it makes sense for me when I am listening to singer-songwriters especially because some of them may be particularly good at lyric writing, for instance, but particularly boring at either writing or performing the musical accompaniment, or vice versa.

There is, around Newcastle, Oz, a singer-songwriter with the same name (rightfully gained at birth) as one of the singer-songwriters named in this thread. I find him particularly boring to listen to because of his monotonous (for me) musical style but others around here sing his praises (excuse the pun) because they like his song lyrics. The only time I enjoyed his performances was when he teamed up with a woman singer who added interesting musical harmonies to his songs, but the rest of the time I just don't like his stuff at all.

So now, when I disagree with someone else's opinion about which singer-songwriter is good etc I usually ask them what they like about their songs and it tends to work out that it is a choice between music and words.

Just a (rather long) set of thoughts on this topic.

Helen

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Lucius
Date: 27 Mar 99 - 04:56 PM

Susan: Ligetti! I just watched a bit of "2001" on the telly the other night. You know that Kubrick used his music in the score, right?

I'm fond of Messien, but I'm not familiar with Krum, do you mean George Crumb, from Media, PA? I was just recently working out his "Songs, Chants and Death Drones" on my electric guitar. Don't think that I can use it at our next sing, however.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: O'Hanrahan
Date: 27 Mar 99 - 11:00 AM

I t is quite interesting seeing folks take such venomous shots at people i see as artists expressing music & words in ways that have inspired me throught a lifetime. I must admit i have some 'pet peeve' artists who annoy me but never would i have thought someone could think , let's see, say ,... a body of work by John Lennon is "shit"...perhaps some of it was trivial commercial stuff but jesus....he is on of my heros...and James Taylor, I love much of his stuff and he is a lot of fun live....and then somebody takes a potshot at Pete Morton, wow...and i still listen to the new Fairport stuff...it's damn good too..and i saw Steeleye Span last year...i cried when they did this fabulous a capella finale...they are as good as ever. And Bob Dylan, imagine that, hey, listen to the tribute album at Madison Sq. Garden from a couple years back, song after song, I loved them all as did many of the contempory artists who were there to salute him. Paul simon, especially early years, Bookends and the fist two solo efforts..great music ..

Just my 2 cents worth.

My turn to slam: Although i never did care for Neil Young's voice i appreciate the songwriting abilities. And Cat Stevens kind of bugged me, and i always held a small dislike for Judy Collins, probably because i was such a Joni Mitchell fan and thought she didn't get her due, it was like judy stole her songs. What really bugs me is when i read a list of recent Grammy winners it all seems like crap to me. Sheryl Crow, uck, celine, uck,brandy, puke,... whereas in the 60's & 70's i think there was better pop music. But then i guess i am 46 after all.

Thanks Long live the Bothy Band, O'Hanrahan

PS: I really can't take too much of the Irish bar bands that play all the commercial schmaltz(sp?) either.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Mar 99 - 06:32 AM

Dear Helen,

You have hit upon a fantastic point and I'm sure that much of our passion for a particular artist/singer/songwriter/whatever is based on the priority we place on the words versus the music. There are those that do provide both and that too gets wrapped up in personal taste. For me, I think Paul Simon might be an example of the "both."

I have seen the phenomenom you describe go either way regarding men and women and I'd be willing to agree that in general it's as you, but I personally know too many examples of men=music, women=words to say that's all there is to it. It has always made me wonder exactly what it is, but my guess is it's tied up in so many different facets of our backgrounds that any individual thing would be hard to pin down...be some interesting research.

Just the highlights of a story I told a while back in another thread...My friend Mac courted his wife continually using Dylan song lyrics. He is a major Dylan fan, but she basically had no idea who Dylan was. Mac doesn't play anything nor does he sing since he believes himself to be a poor singer. The funny thing was that he kept using lyrics that could hardly be described as romantic...well Dylan isn't exactly the king of romance songs, BUT, he used particularly UN-romantic lyrics...like "Dogs run free, why not me?" I dunno'...almost 20 years later they're still happily married, great kids......I could never figure out their courtship though. When I told the extended version of this story awhile back, Rick Fielding suggested the "answer is blowin' in the wind." He's probably right.

catspaw

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Dr John
Date: 27 Mar 99 - 04:36 AM

We're getting w a y off the folk/blues area with many of these artists; although I have seen the Beatles describes as "folk" in recent times ie anyone with an acoustic guitar. There's only one performer whose painful droaning has made me turn off "Folk on Two" (bring back ... etc) and I'm hardy enough to sit through James Taylor and that's Pete Morton. Dreadful. Can't tell the difference between Guthrie and Dylan. For a start his name was Guthrie! WG's song sound as fresh today as they did when they were recorded as that's getting to be a long time ago now; perhaps because they chronicle a time, the poetry is brilliant and they're full of biting humour. Dylan's stuff is just winging doggeral which might just as well have come from the bee bop a lula merchants. His better stuff is just Guthrie phrases cobbled together.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: McMusic
Date: 27 Mar 99 - 02:35 AM

Earl, I couldn't agree with you more about Mr. Clapton. Once was the time when he left everyone but Hendrix in the dust--not only because of his skill, but his dedication. Now, he's lost his edge, his drive, his musical balls. He relies on formula, bland AM radio influences and keeps getting showered with awards simply because he's Eric Clapton. But when you think about it, the increase in televised music awards shows over the past several years is nothing but the rock status quo patting themselves on the back for taking what was once the art-form of rebellion and turning in into the creaking noise of washed-out, middle-of-the-road establishmentarinsim. Hope all will excuse my rant, but I'm pretty bored with those awards shows in themselves. A couple of years ago, Cathy Fink and Marcy Marxer, who have spent years recording music and videos, and giving performances for children, were up for a Grammy. Now these two ladies have been honored by almost every parents' organization going for their talent and their dedication. But guess who won the Grammy? Linda Rondstadt, that world famous singer of children's songs! I think it was just a case of cow-towing to the big record company and its big pop star! What a joke! And Elvis? For the first couple of years, he WAS the king of rock n' roll--the rest of his life he spent as an overfed, overpaid, over praised, overindulged Vegas lounge lizard! I'll go back to my padded room now. It's time for "Petticoat Junction" to come on.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Helen
Date: 27 Mar 99 - 12:15 AM

Hi all,

I have a theory which I'd like to run by you guys. I have never liked Bob Dylan, Neil Young or Leonard Cohen while almost everyone around me was falling over him/herself praising their talents. My boyfriend likes Neil Young and Leonard Cohen (among lots of others) but I have discovered that he listens to music in a different way from me.

He listens to the words of the songs and quotes the words in conversations, usually apropos of nothing, and it makes me completely bewildered to figure out what the hell he's talking about sometimes until he tells me it's a song quote. The music itself doesn't matter half as much to him as the lyrics. Like poetry, I think he sees it as reflections of life expressed in words.

On the other hand, I listen to the music, and it takes a lot of concentration and effort for me to follow the thread of the lyrics from start to finish of any song. For me the music - composition, arrangement and expression - is almost everything and the words are secondary, except for very few songs or songwriters.

When a high school English teacher, way back in the early 70's, decided to be a bit cool & hip and introduced Leonard Cohen's songs to us most of the class thought Cohen was fan-bloody-tastic and I thought he was just plain *yuk*. When I finally found the words to explain my reaction I said - "He can only sing about 3 notes and play a couple of chords and it is utterly boring". (The song was "Suzanne", by the way.)

I can listen to other people doing interesting musical renditions of any of these songwriters' works, but I can't listen to them singing their own songs.

So, my theory is that some people listen to the lyrics, some listen to the music and that is one of the main contributing factors in the huge disagreements people have about what makes a great (or terrible or boring) singer and/or songwriter.

What do you reckon?

Helen

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: AlistairUK
Date: 26 Mar 99 - 03:17 PM

I think he was for a wee while after he'd left Fairport, or maybe it's my fading memory!

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Mar 99 - 02:18 PM

Swarbrick in Steeleye?

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 26 Mar 99 - 02:09 PM

AlistairUK,

Amen about Elvis. In my mind he is the prime example of exploitation of black musicians, performing their material their way and becoming rich and famous at their expense, his looks and gyrations creating a frenzy that his talent did not deserve. I like some of his Rockabilly stuff too, but King? Come on. Little Richard and Chuck Berry are much more deserving of that title.

I think that Clapton did rate in the sixties, but has lost any edge and originality that he has ever had. Johnny Winter is still a far better blues player, Jeff Beck is still a far better and more creative electric rock player.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: tomtom
Date: 26 Mar 99 - 01:56 PM

Elvis's original Sun recordings are pretty remarkable, if you ask me. His Blue Moon of Kentucky is a masterpiece. After that, of course, he turned into a walking/talking freak show. Graceland is an other-worldly celebration of bad taste. Three cheers for the James Taylor bashing. Look up "BLAND" in the OED, and you'll read, "see 'Sweet Baby James.'" I'd like to add David Crosby to the list. I can't really pinpoint what bugs me about that guy, but he gives me the heebie-jeebies. thanks for listening, tomtom

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: AlistairUK
Date: 26 Mar 99 - 01:05 PM

When was Swarbrick in Pentangle? Tha's a new one on me. i know he was in Steeleye but I thought Pentangle had only ever been McShee, Renbourne and Jansch.

Clapton has never rated. Always was a waste of vinyl. Dylan had it, then lost it, then found it again so he sort of goes in and out of my list. And why Elvis was ever considered the King I do not know. Though his early 'Hillbilly Cat'days were good.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 26 Mar 99 - 11:49 AM

Earl,

I do know one lead guitar palyer who fits the bill, plays music because he loves it, not to impress anyone. However, he is in his late thirties and I suspect that he might have matured from a wanker.

You mentioned Clapton, you're right, he is nothing but a pop musician now. He is on my list of people and or bands who should have retired years ago. Had they done so they'd be fondly remembered instead of being thought of as shmarmy wankers. Others include Elton John (after Goodbye Yellow Brick Road), Rod Stewart (Every Picture Tells a Story), Genesis when Gabriel left, Chicago, Billy Joel, AC/DC post Bon Scott . I had Dylan in this category for a while but saw him in 97 and picked up "Time Out of Mind" I believe he is as vital as ever. My list is quite long and I forget many of its members until they come on the radio and I almost put my fist through the dashboard changing stations.

As far as all the Anti Neil Young tirades here, I went off Neil a bit myself, but I think it's more because I've heard every Scarberian (sorry non Torontonians) who owns a guitar doing Neil. It loses something in the translation and makes you cringe at Jams.

Subject: RE: Biggest waste of Vinyl, Tape or CDs
From: RWilhelm
Date: 26 Mar 99 - 08:38 AM

Steve L, actually I think your brother got it exactly right. I had to rack my brain to think of a lead guitar player who wasn't a wanker.

Since we're slaughtering sacred cows, Eric Clapton gives me a pain. These days he just phones it in and keeps winning awards for it. Whenever there is a blues revival he emerges to be crowned king. Between times he records some of the smarmiest pop-rock ever produced.