BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech

Subject: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 06:50 PM

http://www.freepress.net/

National conference on Media Reform Memphis Tennesee 2007

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: DougR
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 01:41 PM

The reason you are so keen on Bill Moyer's speech would not be that he agrees with your POV would it be Donuel? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 01:51 PM

Well, DougR, we KNOW you only opened a Moyers thread to be condescending and objectionable. Why bother?

Moyers in an important modern philosopher.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: DougR
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 01:55 PM

Well pardon me, SRS, I wasn't aware of that! Perhaps a IMO after your statement would be in order.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 02:06 PM

Doug - Did you read the speech? Was there something you disagreed with?

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 02:25 PM

Nope. Not necessary. He is an important modern philosopher. Who you happen to disagree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:35 PM

It is refreshing to read/listen to a man who is not afraid to call a spade a shovel. The press/media has for too long been kissing Washington's ass, and it's bloody-well time they stopped. I would love to listen to main-stream news and get something honest for a change, and it WOULD be a change. I hope there are more like him who will try to save what's left of a great democracy, because sure as hell's afire, Washington doesn't seem able to.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: DougR
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:57 PM

No Wesley I did not. I am well aware of Bill Moyers, though, and have read other opinion pieces he has written and listened to him many times when he was on PBS. He is a liberal, I'm a conservative. I have no reason to believe this piece would be any different than his previous ones.

I have no quarrel with anyone who worships at the feet of Bill Moyers, and thinks he is the greatest thing to come along since sliced bread. I just don't feel that way myself.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:59 PM

He is just an average, honest guy. Surprising how refreshing that can be after decades of crap/Washington spin from the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 05:40 PM

Doug - It's a shame that folks from both sides of the fence are willing to reject the ideas of others based on our assumptions that they are liberal or conservative. It's just possible that William F Buckley has some good ideas. Or even Bill Moyers. Neither one of us will know unless we look at the ideas first - and then decide if we agree with them or not. YMMV however.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 05:55 PM

Yes I to believe we should all transcend the silly terms of liberal and conservative.

However anyone who is not MAINSTREAM should go straght to hell ;<)

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 07:04 PM

"Worship at the feet of Bill Moyers?" No. But I admire the man greatly because he's one of the few people in the media who sees things as they are and has the guts to speak out boldly.

Would that there were dozens more like him!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: GUEST,michaelr
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 07:25 PM

Typical DougR attitude: uninformed putdowns.

Bill Moyers is the conscience of American journalism. I hope his speech falls on some open ears in the media.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 07:28 PM

MORE.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 09:03 PM

cool
The first post has the entire 35 minute speech.

I loved the long list of administration talking points* Bill brought up


*a talking point becomes true only after it is heard 20 times from at least 10 different pundits.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 10:13 PM

Ol' Douggie is of the sublimely ignorant and self-important group that feels it necessary to ban objectionable books- which they've never read.

He's more to be pitied than censured
He's more to be helped than despised
He's only a poor boy who's wandered
Down life's stormy paths ill-advised

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 11:06 PM

Some years back, in the small town of Lynden in northern Washington State, one of the local churches wanted Catcher in the Rye removed from the local public library. When the pastor was asked if he'd read the book, he said, "No, but I've heard about it." The church council president piped up and said, "I have read it. But I didn't understand it."

Typical.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 11:26 PM

I always enjoyed listening to William F. Buckley when he was doing his PBS program. I agree with Moyers, but I still respect Buckley, and that seems to be the difference between DougR and some of the rest of us. I'd rather listen to someone like Buckley and get a lucid discussion of why he thinks the way he does regarding what he believes is important, than wade through all of the belligerent dogma from so many Limbaugh-like hacks out there. He also wrote some very witty mysteries many years ago. I enjoyed several of them.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Cluin
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 02:46 AM

I liked his interviews.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: John Hardly
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 05:38 AM

I like what this guy (a philosopher whom I trust more than Moyers) had to say about Moyers...

"First off, Bill Moyers is an ordained Baptist Minister, courtesy of the fine folks at the Southwest Baptist Theological Seminary in Forth Worth. And for those who steadfastly claim he has no political agenda, may I remind you that he was Lyndon B. Johnson's Press Secretary, and of of the Architects of "The Great Society"--as well as one of the Kennedy whiz-kids.

He is wholesome, straightforward, and honest, and has a reputation as one of the greatest broadcast journalists of his generation--the heir to Edward R. Murrow--and he has brought the wisdom of the greatest minds of our times to television--at least if you believe his clippings---

Now I am not a conservative--but I don't like Bill Moyer, and I never have. Not because he is a Baptist Minister, Not because I necessarily disagree with his politics, Not because he was part of the administration that bought their social agenda with the Vietnam War(which we can talk about another time), but because I think he is a gladhander and an apple polisher of the worst sort.

He is exactly like the folks that he criticizes, meaning that he knows what his "flock" want to hear, and he tells it to them--just like they want to hear it—even if it requires bending the truth a little bit--

He's the master of Sunday Dinner Philosophy--his "deeply probing" broadcast and written works, on Joseph Campbell and such, are calculated to ask the questions about life that we like to raise after the chicken is done, and before the pie comes out--and like every shrewd minister, he knows better than to raise certain questions with the folks whose offering allow him to continue his good work—

His object is simple—to keep people interested enough to buy the books, watch the programs , and pledge to the PBS stations--

-- MTed"

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 08:38 AM

I don't worship anyone. That's part of being a Liberal and a free thinker.
I'd like to see Bill Moyers and Joseph Campbell run for president and vice president. A far cry from the liars and crooks we have now.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: balladeer
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 08:58 AM

I like Bill Moyers and I think Joseph Campbell has many helpful things to say, but if I were American and had a vote, I'd definitely back Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert for the White House in 2008. I'm not sure who should be the top of the ticket, though. Jon is more politically savvy, but Stephen has better bs skills.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 11:38 AM

One of the most important things you must have to get elected is name recognition. Moyers and Campbell have that.
Walter Cronkite could have won in a walk. When he came out against the Viet Nam war, President Johnson said, "If I have lost Cronkite, I have lost the war."
Too bad he didn't wise up long before.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 11:43 AM

I thought Joseph Campbell was dead. Does that hurt his chances at winning the election?

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: John Hardly
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 11:53 AM

"...Campbell was dead..."

He's talking about the soup guy.

Oh wait. He's dead too.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: open mike
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 11:53 AM

Bill Moyers was a guest on Democracy Now! and here is a transcript:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/16/159222

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 12:29 PM

Someone once told H.L. Menken that former president Coolidge had died. He said "How do they know"?

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 12:39 PM

MTed dismisses Moyers after developing a characterization that has no evidence other than his opinion. His "analysis" is along the lines of "damning with faint praise." So pardon me if I don't accept that.

I live in the Bible Belt and must regularly ask people to cease trying to convince me to accept their religious views. I have a sign on my front door that says No Soliciting and No Proselytizing. So you may find it surprising that it was a friend who is a Southern Baptist minister who helped me understand what *should* be going on as far as the regional religions trying to legislate how everyone behaves. He pointed out that the colonial founding fathers' concept of separating church and state was put forward by Baptists who were afraid that Puritans would try to legislate their religious and civic behavior.

This is said to illustrate that while some Baptist ministers take their calling far too seriously and are far too wide-reaching, others understand that they should tend first to their own flock, and do themselves more good if they aren't antagonizing non-baptist members of their community. I didn't have to feel like Homer Simpson rescuing Bart from the neighbors when I visited with my friend Lee.

Moyers doesn't practice his religion within the narrow confines that one regularly observes with groups like the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, etc. He is a philosopher, coming from a journalistic position and his ethics and world view are most certainly informed by his religion. But it doesn't dictate what he can think or say.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: John Hardly
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 01:12 PM

Moyers is interesting in this:

Some say they like him because he is an "objective journalist".

But he is obviously not "objective". MTed, from the left, and me, from the right, can easily observe that he is not objective. He worked in the Johnson adminstration, fer goshsakes. Tell me you would accept as "objective" anyone who had worked in the Reagan administration -- especially in a similar capacity as Moyers' to Johnson's.

And what is "Journalistic" about the above speech? What did he tell you that you don't already know? That's not journalism, that's simply preaching. One just usually doesn't mind preaching a point of view that they are already predisposed to believe in anyway.

And the others who are really taken with Moyers seem to like him because he is a philosopher. And what they mean by this is that Moyers offers them a delightful shortcut in their quest for truth. He trades on his "Baptist preacher" creds to tell you that he has been to the mountain and (much to your delight) has concluded that there is no god there. No need to look up there yourself. If he's a preacher and HE has concluded that there's no god there, well, it must be so. At least it's more comfortable to believe now.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 02:10 PM

One of the major things that irritated (and continues to irritate) right-wingers about Bill Moyers was his Friday evening PBS television program, NOW, with Bill Moyers (currently carried on by David Brancaccio since Moyers retired). On this program, Moyers called attention to many matters that various administrations—most lately, the Bush administration—did not, and do not, want you, the American electorate, to know. He interviewed many people whom other members of the media were afraid to touch (e.g. Richard A. Clarke). Also, he did features on businesses that treated their employees shabbily, exposing their sleazy exploitation practices. And he did features on businesses that paid well and gave their employees excellent benefits (in one case, including a free day-care center) and still made good profits for it's stockholders, showing, not only that it can be done, but it's good business to do so.

Obviously he is a passionate advocate for Freedom of the Press, and that includes the rest of the media, including the internet.

Now, I ask you:

Why would anyone object to that?

Don Firth

P. S. "Never in our history has there been an administration that relied so heavily on the intellectual sluggishness of the electorate."

Okay, who said that? No, it wasn't Bill Moyers.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Cluin
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 02:33 PM

Jos. Campbell died in 1987.

But he'd still make a better prez that the current deadhead.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: DougR
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 03:54 PM

SRS: I'm impressed.

Greg F.: still the same old insulting Greg F, eh? Well, you can go back to your cage now. It's all cleaned up. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 06:07 PM

I watched both of the videos. I yawned a lot.

When Bill Moyers is presenting 'alternative' points of view by fascillitating discussion, or by interviewing interesting people, I think he's great. It doesn't matter whether I agree with him or not, because the subject becomes non-fiction in it's display of 'what is'. "The Power of Myth" is awe-inspiring in it's depth and clarity... even when it is biased to the lefty.

But when he makes speaches like this one... his talking points are diminished because he can't ask his usual pretinent questions with his characteristic intuitive accuracy. He seems to flounder within the perameters of his own pontfication (just like me)... as he swings exclusively on but one branch of the political tree.

But, ask any good reporter about their personal views... and the result is likely to be tepid... in comparison to their presentation of news stories that contain just a hint of themselves, as reflected in the questions and content of their writing/program.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 06:43 PM

Douggie, Douggie, where precisely is the insult in expecting a person to read a book or listen to a speech before critiquing it? The insult is yours, I'm afraid- an insult to intelligence.

I'm obviously not the only one that thinks you're a prat. But if singling me out for puerile comments about cages makes you feel better, have at it. It only serves to confirm the general opinion of you and your intellectual capacity. You might want to try threatening to hold your breath until you turn blue, see how that works for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 09:44 PM

In an effort to contest the accuracy and incisiveness of Bill Moyers' observations, it is not sufficient to merely say that he was a member of the Johnson administration—as if that, by itself, were enough to negate the truth of what he says. This also ignores the fact that the Johnson administration, although it did get the United States involved in the Vietnam war, did quite a number of very good things. The following is an excerpt from a brief biography of Bill Moyers:

During the Kennedy Administration, Moyers was first appointed as associate director of public affairs for the newly created Peace Corps in 1961. He served as Deputy Director from 1962-63. When Johnson took office after the Kennedy assassination, Moyers became a special assistant to Johnson, serving from 1963–1967. He played a key role in organizing and supervising the 1964 Great Society legislative task forces and was a principal architect of Johnson's 1964 presidential campaign. When Walter Jenkins resigned from Johnson's staff in October 1964, Moyers became the President's informal chief of staff until 1966. From July 1965 to February 1967, he also served as White House Press Secretary. The details of his rift with Johnson have not been made public, but may be discussed in a forthcoming memoir.

In fairness, before condemning Moyers for his association with Lyndon Johnson, one might do well to try to learn more about the reason for the Moyers-Johnson disagreement.

As to Moyers' objectivity, if you, as a journalist—or even just someone who believes that the First Amendment is a good idea—become aware of the corporate bias of the American media, just how "objective" would you be? What is not "objective" about reporting verifiable facts? If you see a dam about to collapse and inundate the town, and you try to warn the townspeople, does this mean you not objective and are, therefore, to be ignored?

Good article

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 10:44 PM

Good thing for Bill Moyer, that he doesn't flounder within the parameters of spelling... ;^)

Facilitate, Pertinent, Parameter, Pontification

My reply, Don, to your excellent point about 'comming aware' is... that the dam has already burst, and we are all groping around for some high ground of objectivity. It makes no sense to me for people to turn against one another on any of these rather peripheral symptoms of systemic problems we are all a part of. 'Corporate bias', for instance, is a loaded term, even without the 'American media' shouting it over hill and dale. Simply by using the term 'Corporate bias' one generally disenfranchises hunderds of thousands of good people in this country who rely on corporations for their paychecks, goods, and services.

...and yet there does appear to be much corruption behind the scenes. We must look at the problems together, in an inclusive fashion, and stop squabbling over our own reflections of them. I think we can all agree that the 'smoke and mirrors' have got to go... and that the dam must be rebuilt sturdy and strong in order to provide power, security... and the requisite peace of mind that would naturally accompany any 'advanced' civilization.

I think that Bill Moyers can and should reach into the hearts of all Americans... I truly believe he has the 'heroic' within him to do it... by both shedding the 'leftist' stance he has presented in the videos, and by creating allies across the political spectrum.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 12:07 AM

Unfortunately, though, all one needs to do to be accused of a "leftist stance" is be objective and point out the direction in which the country is going.

Unless you restrict yourself to bowing, tugging your forelock and mumbling, "Yes sir, right away, sir," you run the danger of being dismissed as a "liberal"—which used to designate an honorable political viewpoint, but is now used as an epithet.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: John Hardly
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:36 AM

I'm not "accusing" Moyers of being a leftist. I am making an objective observation.

If you don't think "liberal" is still an honorable viewpoint, that's not my fault.

And I don't wear epithets on my jackets. Not even shoulder pads.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: GUEST,Historical Perspective
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 12:05 PM

You can't deny the truth of what someone says by plastering a label on him and claiming that you opinion is an "objective observation."

"Liberal" IS a valid and honorable political position, even if right-wingers try to claim that it isn't. It's been a valid and honorable position for centuries and the ravings of people like Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter are not going to change that.

You should read a few good books on political science and learn what these words REALLY mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: John Hardly
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 12:11 PM

So...

...now I'm getting confused. Liberal is an "honorable position", but Moyers isn't one?

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: GUEST,Historical Perspective
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 12:45 PM

Yes, you appear to be badly confused and thinking in terms of exclusive pigeon-holes. Bill Moyers, or ANYONE for that matter, can be both a liberal and an honorable person.

Lest you try to misinterpret what I just said, it is also possible to be both a conservative and an honorable person. It is inaccurate and disingenuous to try to claim that a person is not honorable merely because he or she has a political, philosophical, or religious viewpoint.

No honest person who has followed the career of Bill Moyers can claim he is not an able, intelligent, knowledgeable, and honorable man.

But not all liberals and conservatives are honorable people. Washington, DC is full of examples of this. The White House is full of examples of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: John Hardly
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 01:00 PM

I have no problem with "honorable liberal". I know plenty of them. And I've never tried to tie "liberal" to "dishonorable". Not here, not ever.

It is not, however, honorable to trade on the perception of objectivity when it is clear to anyone watching that Moyers is not objective.

It may be argued that Moyers doesn't "trade" on it -- that he has no control over the perceptions of his adoring masses. But please don't tell me he is objective.

I have NEVER wanted an "objective, unbiased" media. All I have ever wished for is for the cards to be on the table.

People who think Moyers is objective also operate under the assumption that what they believe is simply "correct". To that demented sense of rectitude, the only ones who can qualify for "biased" are those with whom one disagrees with. That is an unfair bar to set.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:45 PM

Everything's gotta be so black OR white with some people. Maybe that's why they can't deal with more than 2 political parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: John Hardly
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:51 PM

MTed considers himself more "liberal" than conservative. Doug, your condescending assessment notwithstanding, is, I'm sure, as versed in the left as you are in the right.

One can see the gray without ignoring the fact that there is also a black and there is also a white. The need to categorize the categorizers is itself, ironically, categorizing.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: GUEST,Historical Perspective
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:20 PM

Because of the chopped-up nature of the speech in the link, I'm not sure that I heard all of Bill Moyers' speech, but in what I was able to watch, I didn't hear him say anything that isn't factual and independently verifiable.

That's what "objective" means.

Not only can a liberal be honorable, he can be objective as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: GUEST,Historical Perspective
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:23 PM

Just because you don't like what someone says doesn't mean that person isn't being objective. Perhaps you are the one who is not being objective.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: John Hardly
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:38 PM

"Just because you don't like what someone says doesn't mean that person isn't being objective."

Well of course not.

" Perhaps you are the one who is not being objective."

Well of course I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: GUEST,Historical Perspective
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:56 PM

Okay. I just wanted to establish that.

Subject: RE: BS: Watch Bill Moyers most powerful speech
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Apr 09 - 09:21 PM

I'll bring out an old thread rather than start a new one.

Bill Moyers' Journal is always excellent. But tonight they have on Sam Waterston and historian Harold Holzer. Waterston is reading Lincoln's words in context set by Holzer. Simple and elegant.

SRS