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Who invented Folk Clubs?
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Subject: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:21 PM Come on, own up! |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Bernard Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:22 PM Weren't me, Les! Honest! |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Folkiedave Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:24 PM Me neither! |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: radriano Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:26 PM Who invented silly thread titles? |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Surreysinger Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:31 PM I think we need to ask Les why he want's to know - is there anything in it for someone who owns up???? |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Surreysinger Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:32 PM Ouch, as a stickler for correct punctuation that superfluous apostrophe in my last post hurt!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: greg stephens Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:36 PM A very interesting question. What and when was the first organisation so named? I havent the remotest idea. Well, I cant remember life pre 1960 in this area, let's hear from some old timers. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:37 PM Well,we all take the clubs as an integral part fo the scond folk revival, as indeed they are. They are probably the most important feature of the revival and no little musical and social phenomenon in theri own right. I want to know, if that's possible, how they started. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:37 PM I did, ten thousand years ago! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:38 PM Might have known!! |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: bubblyrat Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:41 PM Do you remember a group called "THE DOORS " ?? Well, at around the same time,there was a Folk -Group called "THE BAD DOORS ". After a while, in order to avoid confusion with imitators, they became "THE TRUE BAD DOORS " & they invented Folk-Clubs. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Alec Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:43 PM The Bridge Hotel in Newcastle claims to host the longest running one ,so maybe it was them? |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Ebbie Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:44 PM Great name for a band, bubblyrat. :) |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,Terry McDonald Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:07 PM I think it's an interesting question.........we (me and three others) started the Bournemouth and Poole Folk Song Club in late 1964. It later (early 70s) became the Wessex Traditional Folk Song Club and we always used to 'argue' with the Foc's'l in Southampton about which of us was the older (in our region). |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:19 PM Something organised by McColl? Topic in Bradford? Harry Boardman in Manchester. Candidatesfor the first? |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Bill D Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:38 PM some modal folker who wanted other modal folkers to have a place to escape from the hoi-polloi. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: danensis Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:46 PM Perhaps the question should be "What's the earliest you ever went to a Folk Club"? For me it was 1967, and they were well established by then. John |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Little Robyn Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:03 PM I went to the Folk Club at Wellington Teacher's Training College in 1963. I think that was the year it started. Hank Walter, originally from the US, would hold folk song parties where people were handed a song sheet and expected to sing along. Our music lecturer (Yvonne Du Fresne) was one of the people who attended these parties and that's where our first songs came from. Hank also had an extensive record collection and Yvonne borrowed many of them to play for us. That's where we first heard Joan Baez and Bob Gibson etc. and started learning new songs. The club at Victoria University of Wellington started the following year and other folk clubs in other NZ universities followed after. But informal folk gatherings had been held at local coffee bars prior to this - the Monde Marie had live singers from about 1958 tho' I believe Mary Seddon was inspired by her time in France rather than a wish to present American folk. Folk groups like the Weavers and Kingston Trio had been on NZ radio all through the 50s so many of the songs were already known - we just needed a chance to do it ourselves. So we gravitated to like-minded people and clubs were formed. But when was the first one? Robyn |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: bubblyrat Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:15 PM Whoever it was,they certainly overlooked Henley on Thames, John !! Although I did pop over to see John Renbourn in a club-type place in Bray ( aged 14 ,I think !! ) Me,that is. I discovered Sidmouth in 1965, after teaming up with a fellow Say-Lye-Or who came from there (Robin Tedbury )---I got the impression that "The Forge" folk-club had been going since the 1950s. I think it"s under the swimming-pool now,though !! |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:38 PM I think it was Ian and Lorna Campbell, in Birmingham, circa 1956 |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: danensis Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:43 PM According to Fred Woods book "Folk Revival" which I found whilst digging out my Singing Together booklets (q.v) "Ewan McColl's first folk club had been established at the Princess Louise in High holborn. He doesn't give a date but implies it ws before 1957. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,Ken Brock Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:49 PM in America, it may be Chicago's Old Town School of Folk Music, founded Dec, 1957: http://www.oldtownschool.org/history/ Frank Hamilton, who posts here, was the first teacher. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:55 PM I think the first time I ever went to what could have been called a folk club would have been Ballads and Vklues in Soho square with Ewan MacColl, Peggy Seeger and Jack Elliott, and that would have been something like 1959. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:07 PM So '57 is looking like the start. What did the Spinners do in the 50's? |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,Greycap Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:24 PM In my part of Yorkshire the Topic in Bradford was open it att least 1961. I don't think they invented them. Maybe Ewan McColl at the Singer's Club in London? For England, that is. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:33 PM The club run by Ian and Lorna Campbell in Birmingham was The Jug of Punch. This is where Paul Simon picked up "The Sun is Burning". It may or may not be earlier than MacColl's club in London. I just learned of another Campbell - MacColl comparison. Ian Campbell recorded two "Radio Ballads" for the BBC in the format invented by MacColl, Peggy Seeger and Parker. He wrote about these in 1999 here: http://www.mustrad.org.uk/enth13.htm |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 19 Jan 07 - 06:08 PM My first visit to the Ballads and Blues Club at the Princess Louise in Holborn was 1956 or 57. Organised by Malcolm Nixon and Pete Turner, there were a few skifflers there of the more musicianly type, i.e; they used more than two chords. The Topic Fold Club in Bradford was also very early on the scene. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 19 Jan 07 - 06:36 PM What about Church singing clubs? and what about Trade Union 'doos' both of which were long established before WW2. Also here in the USA 'pickin' under a shade tree on a lot of town squares esp at the weekend when folks would be in town getting provisions for the week, not like the Music Hall atmosphere of the Folk Club, but nonetheless much the same thing in a lot of ways. I suspect like traditional Irish house dancing or it's American equivalent, there isn't an exact starting date, more likely a gradual drifting towards a new way of doing the same old things. Compare for example todays 'sessions' and the now almost extinct 'kitchen celidhs'. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 19 Jan 07 - 06:39 PM Perhaps we need two inteconnecting threads. One in the US and one in the UK. Spinners and Weavers so to speak. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jan 07 - 06:47 PM First it was a rumble and a slight shaking then suddenly it was a full eruption. The people created the folk clubs. They demanded the music and the demand was met, same as the previous generation had demanded the jazz clubs. It was organic, spontaneous and fulfilled a need. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jan 07 - 06:48 PM One way and another people have been making music informally sinc ethere were people to do it, but the "folk club" was and is a particular social invention with a history that's never really been told. I've always seen it as something that grew out of the skiffle craze, out of the peculiar licensing laws in England, and out of the anti-nuclear campaigns. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Georgiansilver Date: 19 Jan 07 - 06:54 PM In centuries past...the farmworkers did their weeks toil and gathered in the Landlords Barn on a Friday or Saturday night for jugs of home made ale, provided free by the Landlord..strong ale it was....and all took turns singing. It mattered not whether a man had a good voice or not, he was expected to sing whatever.......so many of the traditional songs of the land were sung by these peasants. Similarly it happened at sea with the sailors filling their time making up songs about the sea and some to sing whilst they worked at hoisting sails and swabbing decks. No-one of course paid to get in and no-one was offered a gig as such but I would assume that these were perhaps some of the earliest Folk get togethers...when the term clubs was used, who the heck knows? I guess they have evolved much the same as Folk music has. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: RTim Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:12 PM Someone mentioned The Foscle in Southampton. I remember singing at their 10th Birthday Party concert at the Soton Univ. Theatre along with Steve Jordan, Geoff Jerram and Dave Williams - we were all residents at the time in the early 1970's - what was the date of that? Andy Jackson (Misken man) should know as he was there too. I also remember Shirley & Dolly Collons being the main guests. Tim Radford |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,Nick Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:16 PM Just some folks Whack Fall The Day Nick |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Mooh Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:27 PM Don't know about the inventor or the earliest club, but I'd like to hop into my trusty wayback machine and visit folk gatherings throughout history, especially from the mddle ages on. What did they play, and on what instruments, how? I'd like to taste the beer and the air, hear the tunes, dance the steps, experience the feelings. I'd also visit my grandfather's shop at the end on his work day to hear him play the fiddle I now own before he went home. I never knew him, but I'm getting to know his fiddle. Peace, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,Nicholas Waller Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:30 PM The Topic in Bradford was founded in September 1956 (it has just finsihed its 50th Anniversary autumn season, with Vin Garbutt, Julie Felix and Wizz Jones, among other, appearing). The club often has the strapline "the oldest folk club in the world" on its T-Shirts and publicity but has never claimed to be the first ever. I look after the Topic's website and did a bit of research into this for the History page, and we can fairly safely say the Topic is the oldest continuously-operating weekly English-style pub-based folk club (with paid guests) in the world. As far as we can figure there have only been 33 "days off" in the 2600+ possible club nights since the start (usually when the club night fell close to Xmas Day or New Year: the most recent not-open night was Xmas Day 2003). On my history page, from somewhere - Alex Eaton's detailed history of the founding of the Topic in Tyke's News in 1990, I think - I got the info that "Ewan MacColl had founded the first English folk club, the Ballads and Blues, in London in 1953", and there was also something called The Good Earth in London in 1954. The Bridge Club in Newcastle was founded in 1958, but has the distinction of being in the same venue since it started (the Topic has been in eleven). Other early organisations are Cornell's university-based (and I think mostly term-time only) Folk Song Club, the Bush Music Club, Inc. in Sydney, which is more of an EFDSS-style operation for bush music than a folk club as far as I can tell, and the San Francisco Folk Music Club, which was apparently founded in the late 40s. I don't know that it is has been continuous from the start; I get the impression it started in people's homes in an ad hoc way and was only organised in a formal way in 1959 (though that same link says it is "not a club in the organizational sense since nobody has ever been elected to anything and there aren't any bi-laws or written rules"). It is fortnightly, and seems to be a series of singarounds in a large private (rather than public) house, and has plenty of side-events and workshops. The Topic got formal within a month or two, as it soon started raising money for refugees from the Hungarian Uprising, which took place only a few weeks after the founding. The club's anniversaries and AGM tend to be in November, presumably reflecting this money-related formalisation. The Topic's website |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Andy Jackson Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:41 PM I have always believed that folk clubs were started to reproduce the impromptue performing by anyone who could play. I believe folk clubs, as such, on this side of the pond, are very much a British thing. Pub sessions in Ireland and just laid back music "sur la continent". The recent quietening of the folk club scene I have put down to the fact that we have succeeded in getting our music into the main stream of entertainment. Art centres etc now need much less convincing to book Folk Artists. Having said that, we started a new club on the Isle of Wight ( sorry this is not a cheeky plug but relevant, see other thread) I honestly expected a dozen or perhaps even twenty to turn up. Bob the organiser had stated the aim to be Traditional English and Sea Shanties and I did wonder how many would be as interested as us. Low and behold nearly 50 for most of the night!! They came for the Tradition. Long live the folk club!!!! Oh and we still offer £1 cash back on our Festival ticket for Bone Fide Folk Club members. Without the clubs we lose the backbone of our music. Andy |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,beachcomber Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:41 PM I moved to London in 1958 and , working with J.Lyons & Co , based at Charing Cross, I met some Scottish Lads who played guitars and sang and took me along to a musical gathering one night after shift (at Soho Square I believe - at the time I didn't know my Soho from my Camden Town ) nearby. It was only later that I became aware of Seeger & McColl and Rambling Jack. There were many others also but they never made an impression on me. It sounds very like the "session" mentioned by McG of H. In any case I do know that it was soon after my arrival in that City. I also remember being brought to the upstair clubs of a few places . Two of the names that I remember are "The Railway Tavern" (somewhere in East, East London , "The Prospect of Whitby" on the River bank in Wapping , I think and "The Scots Hoose" in Cambridge Circus. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Chris in Portland Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:44 PM I remember the day at Oak Park High School in '57 or so when "Beanie" Greening said "My Mom is staring a folk music school." It became the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago after it moved downtown from her home in Oak Park. Frank Hamilton was one of the first teachers. The Bob Gibson bio says that the Gate of Horn opened in 1956, inspired by Ken Nordine's Off-Beat Room for his "word jazz." In Chicago, there was also a deli place, the Fickle Pickle on Wells, that had folk music, but nobody listened. I was there one Saturday afternoon about '59 or so and these two guys were trying to sing and tell jokes but nobody payde them any attention - it was the Smother Brothers!! But I always thought that the first professional folksinger was Aristide Bruant in Paris. And that Sam Hinton from San Diego was the fist person in the US at least billed as a folk singer. True?? Chris in Portland |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:47 PM I seem to remember, maybe I saw a 'newsreel', Music Hall devolve into a couple of locals and a piano... oh well maybe not! |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Bob Bolton Date: 19 Jan 07 - 08:36 PM G'day, The Bush Music Club was founded in Sydney in October 1954 by the members of the first band to consciously think of themselves as a "Folk Band" - The Bushwhackers Band ... the members of which had already founded the (short-lived) Australian Folklore Society as an 'academic' body to 'collect, study and publish' Australian folk songs (as well as associated material like poetry, stories and dance). The distinguising purpose of the Bush Music Club was that it was founded by the Band members to deal with the great number of people who wanted to join The Bushwhackers Band ... Obviously, a band can't expand indefinitely, so they offered to join in practicing the music - and teach the songs, tunes, instrument-playing techiques, &c to people who could go off and form their own bands - and take possession of their own "folk music". There were, at that time no comparable organisations (certainly not around here) so there was no need to coin a "generic" term for such a group - but the later emergence of other groups with similar aims ... in other states, then around Sydney itself ... took up the name, by now being used elsewhere around the English-speaking world (and, possibly, America...) "Folk Club". We certainly claim to be "Australia's oldest Folk Club" (and celebrated our Golden Jubilee some 2½ years ago) ... but we didn't (to our knowledge) coin the term! BTW: This original group had no connection with the Original (sic) Bushwackers (sic) & Bullockies Bush Band of a decade later, down south in Melbourne - who went on to be a widely known Rock/Folk fusion band ... rather less devoted to the folkloric aspects or accuracy of local folksong. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Bob Bolton Date: 19 Jan 07 - 08:46 PM G'day again, Errrr... I should, of course, have said: "the first Australian band to consciously think of themselves as a "Folk Band" - The Bushwhackers Band ... ". This band had its origins back in 1952, when John Meredith (later the pioneer folk music collector using tape recorder, in the Australian context) plus a few friends, put together a small group to sing the few Australian folk songs they remembered from their 'Bush' (country area) upbringing ... and they called it The Heathcote Bushwhackers after the outer Sydney suburb (then!) where they practised. Their involvement with a reasonably popular ... and enduring ... Musical play called Reedy River brought them ... and Australian folk song ... to the notice of a wider public - and fuelled a local "folk song revival" somewhat earlier than the (largely American-driven) commercial "Folk Boom" of the late '50s / early '60s. Regards, Bob |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,Mother Folker Date: 19 Jan 07 - 08:47 PM Oh I confess, you wrung it out of me with your hoary exhortations. I invented yer Folk Clubs. I started with a single one, but it was such a good one, I decided that quantity was not a bad idea. The quantity thing I got from a pan of cookies I pulled out of the oven. I had intended one huge cookie, but the dough crawled, see, and shrank, and at first I was delirious with grief till I realised that there were more cookies that way. And so it was with Folk Clubs. I searched all about for the starchiest Folk I could find. Self-righteous was the best, but I quickly found too many of them, and realised that I need some pushovers, Folk what liked anything by anybody. Them I called "audience". Then I needed costumes, short pants for the gents and long skirts and snoods for the ladies. Had everyone gain ten pounds. Beards were assigned to men, and beards were assigned to women. I put them in a room and instructed them as to what was the Single Right Version of anything, and warned them to sing it with an accent not their own. I toyed with the coinage of a word, "Greenface", for songs sung in faux-Irish, but thought better of it. Don't know why; that's what it is to hear "Raglan Road" in Paddy Blackface... Anyway, I needed old ones who mainly talked, not sang, and middleaged ones to whine and complain about variants, and young ones to play too loud and have too much fun with such serious stuff as my Folk Music. And here you all are! I take full credit for my invention, and I suppose that it has kept quirky accents and autoharps alive all these years. You all can line up to thank me now. You're welcome, I'm almost certain. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:00 AM Old, old argument. Would be interesting to find some new information. Always reckoned to be a photo-finish (or photo-start) between 'The Topic' in Bradford and 'The Ballads and Blues in London'. MacColl was always sure that it was B&B, but there is no documentary evidence. There was a 'club' at The Theatre Royal, Stratford East (Theatre Workshop) prior to the Ballads and Blues, but I get the impression that these were concerts rather than a club. Perhaps the forthcoming Ben Harker 'MacColl' biography will give us a clue. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:20 AM So the roots go back to McColl? Clearly not only, but a major figure? The fertile ground? Skiffle, trda. jazz, youth culture, a home for general leftieness in the time of Tory goverments, CND, amazing accessble songs, a reaction to the vacuous popular music of the 1950's? |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,Terry McDonald Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:34 AM Tim - yes, Dave Williams was a very influential early 'folk-singer' along with his (eventual) brother in law Mike Sadler. Dave used to sing in the interval at the Yellow Dog Jazz Club in Portswood, Southampton. The local band was the Tia Juana Jazz Band. We used to go there to hear them and our own (i.e. Bournemouth based)Gerry Brown Band Jazzmen. This giving a local singer-guitarists a spot seems to have mirrored the interval skiffle session at Ken Colyer's club in London. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,Fidjit Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:40 AM For me they came about in the late 50's via the coffee shops in London where the first (Well perhaps not the first) Skiffle was played. Chas McDevit. Martin Winsor etc. First Skiffle was via the breaks in the Trad Jazz clubs of the day. That I heard at the Mick Mulligan/George Melly Magnolia Jazz band In Edmonton, London. Yes I'm that old. Chas |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,Nicholas Waller Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:37 AM Always reckoned to be a photo-finish (or photo-start) between 'The Topic' in Bradford and 'The Ballads and Blues in London'. MacColl was always sure that it was B&B, but there is no documentary evidence. -Guest The Topic (or more correctly, the weekly folk singing meeting that fairly soon turned into The Topic Folk Club) is well-established as starting up in September 1956. Peggy Seeger in her letter in the 40th issue of Living Tradition (on the 'sing from your own culture' policy debate) and biography of Ewan MacColl on her website says the B&B was founded in 1953. In a previous post above I said that Alex Eaton, guiding light of the Topic founding, had referred to the Ballads and Blues, but checking his 1990 Tyke's News article I see he doesn't actually mention the club. He gives precedence to The Good Earth: "Firstly then as to dates. The Topic is certainly the oldest British Folk Club in continuous existence since its inception. The only club founded earlier did not last too long. The Good Earth, 44 Gerard Street, London, started in December 1954 and became the 44 Skiffle and Folk Club in May 1956." On the other hand Fred McCormick in a review of The Companion to Irish Traditional Music talks about an entry on English clubs: "I was also surprised to find the anonymous author of this piece claiming that the first English folk club to set up was the Topic in Bradford in 1956. Such a claim runs counter to received wisdom, namely that Ewan MacColl and A L Lloyd kicked the entire 'second' revival off with the Ballads and Blues Club in London in 1953. The waters of the early English revival have become muddied with age and I am not sure how much credence can be given to this latter claim. What is incontrovertible however, is that the Ballads and Blues was in existence well before the Topic opened its doors." On November 7th 1986, incidentally, Peggy Seeger and Ewan MacColl headlined at The Topic's 30th Anniversary celebration, and presumably whoever was there at the time talked about the early days. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Alec Date: 20 Jan 07 - 06:25 AM The Ballads & Blues club,The Good Earth, & The Topic all seem to have a claim but going back to points made by LesInChorlton & GuestFidjit - The Chris Barber band released an L.P. in 1954 featuring a couple of "Joke" songs by their Banjo player who was then known as Tony Donnegan the style of playing was called "Skiffle" & it became immensely popular,Britain was Tory-governed for 13 long years from June 1951 onwards,Frankie Laine & Mantovani dominated popular music,Teddy boys (Britain's first major youth culture) were commonplace from cica 1955 onwards,Suez & Hungary both happened in 1956 & reaction to this helped create what would become the New Left. In July 1957 amateur skiffler John Lennon first met wannabe amateur skiffler Paul McCartney & in 1958 C.N.D. was formed.If you believe,as I do,that musical traditions are not invented but evolve you might see all of these things as being little streams that fed the big river that is contemporary folk. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Geoff the Duck Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:30 AM ENGLAND, U.K. When reading the early part of this thread I was intending to give some accurate information concerning the Topic FC in Bradford, but I see thst Nicholas Waller has covered in greater detail most of what I intended to say. The Topic has NEVER claimed to be the OLDEST club in Britain, just the longest running history since 1956. Founder member, Alex Eaton has stated thet there was at least one other London based folk club before the Topic started. The Topic also claims to be the first UK folk club OUTSIDE London. From conversations over the years with Alex and other people (for example the late Paul "Dad" Tattersall) who attended the early Topic Folk Club , it was a very different experience compared to what we now expect. Early days were spent in a room belonging to a chinese reataurant and attendeed listened and discussed records by American singers such as Brownie McGee and Rambling Jack Elliott. The music was, as far as I can tell, predominantly Blues based. I am not sure whether anybody was already playing instruments or singing. Certainly a number were inspred to learn guitar in a blues style. As the number of people capable of performing increased, the focus moved away from listening to recording and onto people doing their own spots, which would probably have included a lot of blues and skiffle. I am not sure how early on somebody realised that, although they were listening to American "Folk" performances, that there was, somewhere, a lost English tradition of singing. I myself didn't start attending the Topic until around 1976/7, but ended up on the committee between 1981 and 1986. The Ewn McColl Peggy Seeger "Aniversary" concert was probably one of the last few nights of my stint on the committee. I didn't see much of it as the room was packed to capacity and it was just easier to stay out of the way in the corridor, chatting with ex-members we thought had probably died years earlier, when not flogging raffle tickets and such duties. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 20 Jan 07 - 10:08 AM To Beachcomber; The venue which you attended in Soho Square would have been the Ballads and Blues Club, the venue was the offices of the Trade Union Association of Cinematograph and Television Technicians, the ACTT, we moved there after the Princes Louise, other venues were The Coram Hotel in Tavistock Square, The Horshoes Tottenham Court Road, The Sevendown Coffee Bar at No 7 Carlisle Street which had previously been The Partisan, The King and Queen Paddington Green, The Black Horse Rathbone Place, The Porcupine by Leicester Square Tube and finally the King of Corsica in Berwick Street. I think that covers it. The same guys also promoted concerts in London by Pete Seeger, The Weavers, Jesse Fuller, Jack Elliott and Derrol Adams, Josh White etc. The folk club as we have come to know it definitely grew out of the skiffle movement which came out of the "Trad" jazz scene. Re Tony Donegan, he was known as Lonnie some time before his hit record with Chris Barber. It apparently came about in 1952 at a London Concert for flood relief for victims of the great Essex flood. The US Blues/Popular guitarist Lonnie Johnson was on the bill as was Donegan, the announcer confused the names and Donegan stuck with it. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Alec Date: 20 Jan 07 - 10:13 AM Thanks for that footnote Hootenanny. I've often wondered how & why that name change came about. I love this site. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jan 07 - 12:27 PM . |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,Derek Schofield Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:35 AM I'm interested in this discussion as I'm currently researching the early days of the post-war folk revival in England so what follows does not apply to the USA or Australia. The first reference to a folk club I have is February 1949: a folk club held at Cecil Sharp House of the English Folk Dance & Song Society (EFDSS). By early 1950, the Cambridge Branch of the EFDSS was running 'singing evenings' in the Jolly waterman in Cambridge - the first reference to a folk song club in a pub. By early 1951, Birmingham Folk Song Club organised by the local EFDSS was running monthly. In 1953, the BBC broadcast the Ballads and Blues radio programmes and in 1954, Theatre Workshop moved to Stratford, East London (before that they had been based in the north, so MacColl was presumably not living in London till 1954. MacColl was still a vital part of Theatre Workshop). Ballads and Blues became the title of a series of Sunday song events held at the theatre in Stratford - how many or frequently, I don't know - perhaps not many of them were held. But this was after the radio series and obviously after theatre workshop moved to Stratford, so earliest was 1954. Then Ballads and Blues moved to the Princess Louise pub in Holborn. So, that club could not have started earlier than 1954, and was perhaps more likely to be later in 1954, even 1955. There was also a memorable concert called ballads and Blues at the Royal festival Hall in July 1954: MacColl, Seeger, cameron and the Ken Colyer Skiffle Group two years before Donnegan had his first chart success. There were Ballads and Blues clubs in other parts of the country - when did they start? wasn't Arthur Scargill the organiser of one, presumably in Barnsley? Good Earth Club started in 1954, 44 Club by 1956. Topic club in 1956. The Ceilidhe Club (song, music no dance) was held at Cecil Sharp House from 1954. By 1956 there was a Kingston Ceilidhe Club (on Thames). Sing magazine was launched in 1954, edited by Eric Winter who was also a singer, as was John Hasted. There must have been a market for the magazine - where did they sell it, where did they perform? Anyone with details to plug the gaps in this story ? I'd love to hear from you. Derek Schofield |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:30 PM I guess the EFDSS had Country dance Clubs right through from 1920's? Did they generate song clubs at all? |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,Derek Schofield Date: 21 Jan 07 - 04:21 PM Pre-1945, the EFDSS principally operated through classes rather than "clubs". Local county organisations of the EFDSS would have occasional song evenings .. recitals .. and song was usually a feature of vacation schools ... sometime Vaughan Willaims would lead the communal singing of folk songs. Post war, folk dance clubs started up and the number of song events increased. I think one of the points my earlier message was making that the EFDSS was not totally absent from the post-1945 song revival. It often wasn't clear which direction it should be heading in, and as a charity had to consider its objectives, and its finances. But some people have written it out of the history books altogether and that's not a true reflection of what happened. Derek Schofield |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,beachcomber Date: 21 Jan 07 - 06:55 PM Thanks Hoot, I just wish I had made more of an effort to enjoy the "Folk Scene" in London back then. Apart from one or two "journeys of discovery" down West , (under the auspices of my Scottish fellow workers) I confined myself to the "Irish scene" mainly around Kilburn, Willesden, Camden Town and Holloway Rd etc., That was until I "discovered" CSH sometime around 1963/4. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,Nicholas Waller Date: 21 Jan 07 - 07:18 PM Sing magazine was launched in 1954, edited by Eric Winter who was also a singer, as was John Hasted. There must have been a market for the magazine - where did they sell it, where did they perform? -Derek I don't know about selling the magazine, but the long 3-part article by Alex Easton I mentioned above (over three issues of Tykes' News in 1990) is worth you tracking down. Alex goes into a lot of detail about the early days of the Topic - 1956-7 mainly - and the sources they had for songs, including Sing. One person he mentions a fair amount is John Hasted (Professor of Physics at London University until 1986, I see, so he must have been busy enough in the day job), who was "guide-animator" for an early "Music for Youth" weekend school The Topic organised (before it even got its name) on 11 November 1956. The article says Hasted drove to Bradford many times, played banjo, guitar, accordion and piano, knew hundreds of songs and tales and had the happy knack of being able to pass on his knowledge in the most genial manner. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:40 AM Don't really think the EFDSS gatherings fit into the description of Folk Clubs Derek. There were gatherings of singers far earlier than any of the established clubs; Sam Larner used to sing every week at 'The Fisherman's Return' in Winterton, and there were similar fisherman's gatherings right up the east coast (and singing competitions). Similarly in Ireland, we have been given descriptions of weekly gatherings of singers in Kerry right into the 1940s. Suggest that Ben Harker (MacColl biography) might have stumbled on some information on the early revival, but he has said that the singing side of MacColl's career is only a small part of his research. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Scrump Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:40 AM Yes, the Bridge Folk Club at the Bridge Hotel in Newcastle upon Tyne doesn't claim to be the oldest in the country, just the oldest that has been run continuously at the same venue. I've yet to find any evidence to the contrary. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Mr Yellow Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:11 AM Whatever he called it - I would bet some Sharp guy was the first to hold a regular club of singing folk singists. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Mr Yellow Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:14 AM And didn't Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie hold Hootenanies? Does this count or are we being word specific? |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 22 Jan 07 - 09:13 AM Derek Schofield; Are you sure that Peggy appeared in concert at the RFH in July 1954? Peggy wasn't legally allowed to work in the UK as far as I am aware until late 1959. Earning pin money giving guitar and banjo lessons might have slipped by the Musician's Union and Variety Artists Federation but appearing at a prestigeous venue such as the RFH would almost certainly have been noticed and acted upon. Mr Yellow: As far as I am aware the only Hootenanny that Pete Seeger appeared at IN THE UK (which is the area under discussion I believe)was one of the Ballads and Blues regular Saturday nights at the above mentioned ACTT in Soho Square. Woody was briefly in the UK in 1945 after being torpedoed and he made his way to the BBC and broadcast on Childrens Hour radio show. It still survives. I don't belive there were any clubs at which he appeared Hootenanny or otherwise. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: manitas_at_work Date: 22 Jan 07 - 10:50 AM The Railway Tavern in Stratford is still folk friendly although it hasn't had a folk club for years. It has hosted morris and sword dancers and sessions as long as I've known it though. I played a St Patrick's Night there with Terry Yarnell and he informed me that the landlady, Jan , was the daughter of the landlord from the 1950's when the folk club was running. It's only a few hundred yards from the Theatre Royal and apparently still frequented by the company there. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Suffet Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:58 PM Greetings: Mr. Yellow asks, "And didn't Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie hold Hootenanies? Does this count or are we being word specific?" The short answer is, "Yes, but..." Here's the long answer, mostly copied and cribbed from other sources: From a Daniel Pearl Music Days workshop presented by MacDougal Street Rent Party to the Philadelphia Folk Song Society • Merion Station, PA • October 8, 2005. The first documented use of the term hootenanny to describe a musical event was in July 1940. The event was a fundraising party at Seattle's Polish Hall for a liberal newspaper called The Washington New Dealer. The paper's editor, Terry Pettus, was a transplanted Hoosier, and he remembered the word from his childhood in Indiana where it was a utility noun whose meaning was similar to thingamajig or whatchamacallit. That first hootenanny was a success, so the newspaper continued to hold one each month for several years. These earliest hootenannies sometimes included dancing as well as singing and jamming, and they often included a potluck dinner. If some visiting performer were in town, the hootenanny might feature him or her in an impromptu mini-concert within the larger event. In 1941, Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie came through Seattle, played a guest set at one of these hootenannies, and took the idea and the name back with them to New York City, where their group, the Almanac Singers, started their own hoots. These New York hootenannies were more structured than the ones in Seattle, and the mini-concert became the central feature. Nevertheless, they were a lot less formal than traditional concerts, as there was no stage, the audience was usually invited to sing along, and guests were often called upon to do one or two songs. Often there were more performers present than there were non-performing audience members. The Almanac Singers requested 35 cents admission to help pay the rent for the large apartment they shared, but payment was voluntary. After a break for World War II, these New York hootenannies resumed and then continued into the 1970s, with successive left-wing folk music enthusiasts serving as the hosts. The last were Sis Cunningham, one of the original Almanac Singers, and her husband Gordon Friesen. Sis and Gordon started publishing Broadside in 1962, and their hoots helped to support that magazine of topical-political music. By then the word hootenanny had clearly become associated with New York, but the first use of the word to describe a musical event was definitely in Seattle. Back in Seattle, the original hootenannies changed from being fundraisers for The Washington New Dealer into informal gatherings of folk musicians who came together to swap songs and jam. A few of these were held in public venues, such as Eagleson Hall (the University of Washington student YM/YWCA), but the vast majority took place in private homes. They were very loosely structured affairs, and while typical Seattle hootenanny had some solo performances, mostly there was group singing and jamming. These hoots continued throughout the 1950s and into the 1960s, and among other things, they provided an opportunity for novices to perform in front of a sympathetic and supportive audience. After the Kingston Trio's recording of Tom Dooley became a commercial success in 1958, the music industry realized that substantial money could be made from folk music. Promoters throughout North America began producing multi-performer folk concerts which they calledcalled hootenannies. Tickets were required for admission, performers appeared on an actual stage, and the audience sat in theater seats. Once these new style hootenannies gained enough of a following, the American Broadcasting Corporation jumped on the bandwagon. In 1963, ABC launched Hootenanny, a weekly half-hour television program which featured four folk music acts. The program, however, lasted only one season, as the commercial folk boom quickly began to wane. Neither the multi-performer concerts of the early 1960s nor the ABC television show fit the Seattle or even the New York model of a hootenanny. However, for most Americans those concerts and that TV program represented what hootenanny came to mean. As a consequence, the term all but faded from the non-commercial (or more accurately, less commercial) folk music scene. Sis Cunningham and Gordon Friesen may have continued to use it after the mid-1960s, but they were exceptions. While the word hootenanny may be seldom used today, hootenannies themselves are very much alive and well in all their various formats. The Seattle style hoots live today in hundreds of song circles, sing-arounds, jam sessions, and singing parties. The New York style hoots can be found in festival workshops, in the workshops offered at many folk music camps, and in the programs presented by many coffee houses (especially coffee houses sponsored by Unitarian-Universalist churches). Numerous folk music open mics combine elements of both the Seattle and the New York style hoot, as do open round robin concerts. Finally, the more formal, multi-performer concert type of hootenannies exist these days as tribute concerts, as fundraising concerts, as showcase concerts, and as the featured concerts at folk festivals, large and small. I hope that answers the question! Once again, I make no claim of originality. This was mostly a copy-and-paste job with some editorial revisions, and was used solely as a one-time hand-out. Dick and Susan of the Digital Tradition were in attendance when MSRP presented this workshop. --- Steve |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:00 PM Jim Carroll wrote: Don't really think the EFDSS gatherings fit into the description of Folk Clubs Derek. well, I quoted the terms used at the time very carefully ... folk club in 1949 .. singing evenings in Cambridge ... folk song club in Birmingham. It depends how you define a folk club!! I am not suggesting that they started at 8, had a guest for 30-40 mins in each half, raffle in the interval, residents, floor singers..... But in a discussion about whether Good Earth or Ballads and Blues was the first, it's worth recognising that EFDSS was hosting a folk club (whatever the format) in 1949 etc. more research may reveal the format. Derek |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Tyke Date: 22 Jan 07 - 03:15 PM I think the key word is Club as in a Membership, a Committee, Rules, a Mission statement and an annual General Meeting and Elections. My understanding is that in 1956 when the entire Bradford Communist Party resigned in protest, when the Russians sent in their tanks to Hungary, they then founded the Topic Folk Club. To enable them to still meet on a Friday Night and sing the same songs. I would think that The Topic Folk Club was in all probability meeting the criteria of being a club from the start. The night that it meets and its mission statement may have changed over the years but a Club it is and a Club may it long remain. Some Folk artists were allegedly sponsored by the Communist Party to promote communist ideals. This you must remember was a very different world and not always for the better. One American Folk Singer had visited Communist China and was not allowed back into the United States of America known then and now as the land of the free. It matters not whether you agree or disagree with politics of a song what is important is that the other view's should be heard. To that end in theory Folk Clubs have not done a bad job enabling ordinary people to air their views. It's my understanding that some of the Folk Venues in London have to have a membership to enable a Folk Night to take place in a particular venue. The change of venue for any number of reasons that may or not have meant a new membership and change of name even if the core of the club had not changed it would be a New Club. The Grove Folk Club in Leeds, Aren't we lucky having two historic Folk Clubs within a few miles of each other, was established 1963 as the venue and the Club have been so much a part of the lives of it's regulars. That it should claim to be the oldest established Folk Club in the Same Venue The Grove Inn, Back Row, Holbeck, Leeds just stones throw from Leeds City Centre. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST Date: 23 Jan 07 - 04:48 AM Tyke, That sounds a rather formal way of running a club; I don't think I have ever been to one that has been set up on those lines. The three I was involved in setting up and running were all started when enough like-minded people came together. Even the Singers Club, which was sponsored by the Co-op was run on more-or-less mutual agreement - the direct contact with that organisation was via an annual meeting to discuss finances, premises, etc; no policy statement, no election. There was an audience committee made up of volunteers, but that was the nearest we ever got to a formal organisation. I never heard of the CP sponsoring clubs, for political purposes or otherwise, most CP members I knew who were involved in the music were interested in it, those who weren't always struck me as not having a clue about folk music. I (mercifully) can't remember the details of Mike Brocken's book on the revival, which struck me at the time as very poorly researched, but I don't think he came up with anything resembling the set-up you describe. There was a radio programme on the history of Topic Records (Little Red Label), which dealt with politics and the early revival - must listen to it again. I wonder what would happen if somebody sang songs in favour of the BNP, racism or the concentration camps; never known it to happen. I did hear that Eric Bogle was punched by an audience member once when he sang his anti-racist song 'I Hate Wogs'. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Folkiedave Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:50 AM Some Folk artists were allegedly sponsored by the Communist Party to promote communist ideals.
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,Fidjit Date: 23 Jan 07 - 09:25 AM I was member of the Walthamstow Clarion Cycling Club 1948 - '55. Clarion Cycling Clubs were leftwing orientated. We used to sing as we rode home after a Sunday outing. "I love to go a-wandering" "She'll be coming round the mountain", etc. Stuff like that and others. First mobile folk club? We paid membership!! Later on a Sunday night, I'd be at the Magnolia Jazz club/Pub in Edmonton. Chas |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Tyke Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:29 PM I agree Guest that it might seem a formal way to run things but to call yours a club would indicate several people clubbing together to cover the running costs. Each member would be expected to pay any losses and to share in any profits. Working Men's Clubs, Labour Clubs, Conservative Clubs, Drinking Clubs, Liberal Clubs, Golf Clubs all have committees, meetings, and people who are elected to run things. I'm not against benevolent dictatorships you take the risk and call the tune. Let's face it if it's a good idea you can always turn it into a Club when it's more loss than profit or when you realise that you can't do everything. It would seem reasonable that when contracts involving money and when any profit or more likely losses could be involved to which several people are liable that rules, regulations, mission statements and Laws are in place. A raffle, for instance, to raise money to pay the guest or for advertising or for the room is probably not legal unless you are a Club and meeting the Laws which regulate Clubs in the United Kingdom. Clubbing together to run an event makes sense especially if you are able to Club together with other clubs to ensure you have say public liability insurance at the cheapest rate. Perhaps some legal eagle could give advise on the Laws relating to Clubs in the UK. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:34 AM Profits, thought they were fellers who went about predicting the future! Don't think I was ever involved (or met anybody who was) in a club that made a profit. Am not necessarily against your format, but I have always found if you make your set-up too formal you end up spending more time in meetings than at the music. I take the cynical view that a camel is a horse designed by a committee Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Folkiedave Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:55 AM You must have been missing out Jim!! I refer to the mid-sixties. And yes, I am that old!! The club I was involved in had so much money we had no idea what to do with it!! We bought a complete set of JFS and FSS journals to about 1960, all the books with songs and words that came out - all the Topic record releases and still had change. For people at the club to use. (This included profits from ceilidhs etc too.) There was a club in Darlington (I think it was) which was more of a concert club than anything where the organisers made almost a full-time living. Remember this was in the great days (of what people call the Folk Revival and I prefer to call an upsurge) where we had a queue at 7.00 pm on a Sunday waiting for the pub to open, and we started at 7.30 pm, Guest from 8.15 pm to 9.00 pm, fifteen minute interval - prompt - and then starting at 9.15 pm floor singers to 9.45 and then guest to close. We had three guests a month and floor singers night on the other night. We had room for about 120 and we charged membership (legal reasons) and if all of them had come at once we would have been in real trouble!! Having the Watersons as residents helped. And the structure was a benevolent autocracy. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Mr Red Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:08 AM Woody Guthrie went to Scotland while he was in the UK, it says so in his autobiography. Edinburgh if my memory serves. And I believe he made records here. In fact I have seen a disc with shellac on the playing side and an aluminium substrate that dates and looks for all the world to be him singing but the evidence is circumstantial - the date, style and general feel. Was the White Heather Club ever considered to be a Folk Club? Just stirring it......... |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:13 AM Mr Red, the disc to which are referring was probably one of many that were around in the late 50's early sixties. My own first taste of Woody Guthrie was on an aluminuim based acetate disc labelled in handwriting Sonny Terry's Washboard Band. It was of course a bootleg copy of a Folkways recording with Woody, Cisco, Sonny and possibly Brownie McGhee. I still have the disc in question. At the time it was illegal to import and sell recordings from the States and so these copies were made. There was a time when the folk/jazz record shops in the west end of London, Charing Cross Road in particular were raided by customs and excise for stocking some US illegal imports and the material confiscated. I doubt very much if Woody did record on that brief trip between shipping in and out. However I am continually pleasantly surprised to learn of "new" old recording finds that turn up, particularly in the Blues field. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs? From: Scotus Date: 24 Jan 07 - 09:44 AM I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the Edinburgh University Folk Club which was started sometime in the mid 1950s by a group of EU students and staff including Hamish Henderson - an early attender was Jean Redpath. Jack |
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