BS: The term Afro American?

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST,Katz
Date: 07 May 07 - 05:58 PM

In response to Mickey191's Message below:
"I've noticed a change in the last few months of Suspected criminal's descriptions. They now say 6 feet-200 pounds- dark skinned. They show a sketch of an obviously African/American. Formerly it would have said: black man. Then we see the purp & he's definitely African/American. I think this is damn confusing if a neighborhood is on alert that a thug or rapist is wandering around. You could have a Black Irishman or an Indian selling books come under suspicion. I am nuts??"

As African/Americans come in many shades it would be pointless simply to say African/American when describing how someone looks. Equally, if you used that system you would have to describe white suspected criminals as
English/American, Irish/American, German/American. These descriptions are not valuable if you need to describe how the person looks.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 09:44 PM

"John Hardly, guy wrote that on a bet, didn't he? "

If so, I'm rooting for 'im to win. It shows such a sensitive side.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:48 PM

"Okay-ready for the riddle!"

Um ... I don't have the answer ... someone out there will have to make it up ..

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:36 PM

John Hardly, guy wrote that on a bet, didn't he? (Which circle of Danté's Hell is the one with rhyming?)

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:20 PM

"Black Irish" in that sense generally tend to have very fair skin.   Whilst there are also a good number of Irish and Irish descended people who also have African ancestors, both in Ireland and in the Irish Diaspora.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Mickey191
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 07:59 PM

The Black Irish I referred to were Caucasions who had dark skin & Black hair. My Father's cousin was called "Black Dick" & my Dad, who had reddish hair & fair complexion was known as "Red Dick" - both having the same last name- this appelation to distinguish one from the other.

Okay-ready for the riddle!

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 07:28 PM

Tommy the Canexican

Tommy the Canexican
Vancouver-dwelling Mexican
Staying with his next of kin
and writing those bad checks again
Old Hudson, he protects his men
but makes them scrub those decks again
A mad first mate stands next to him
it's Tommy the Canexican

Traveling round with his moose and donkey
He's part Third World with a twist of honkey
A dashing mix, but don't get him wrong 'cause he's
Tommy the Canexican

He likes hockey and he likes soccer
He thinks real slow, but a really fast talker
Selena's long gone, but Celine needs a stalker
like Tommy the Canexican

Got a brother Jose and another Darryl
one wears a poncho, the other warm apparel
both sing a Spanish "Wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald"
for Tommy the Canexican

One likes Dos Equis, the other likes Molsons
One liked Nader, the other Pat Paulson
Both have a crush on those twins called the Olsons
must be cuz they're Canexican

Tommy the Canexican
Vancouver-dwelling Mexican
Staying with his next of kin
and writing those bad checks again
ferrigno showed his pecs to win
Imagine if he flexed at him
The Yukon becomes Texas when
there's Tommy the Canexican

He eats tacos and he eats bacon
five degrees removed from actor Kevin Bacon
He's got seven sisters but all of them are taken
by Tommy the Canexican

He's got no trouble goin north of the border
but crossin to the South he needs a court order
A foosball table, anybody got a quarter?
ask Tommy the Canexican

Tommy the Canexican
Vancouver-dwelling Mexican
Buys his old dog, Rex, a gin
But a good canine rejects a sin
A fat man goes off dexatrim
and gets a bad complex again
he might squeeze in his Lexus and
there's Tommy the Canexican

He fronts a 5 piece from North of Seattle
stuffed 'em in a van and drove 'em like cattle
outside Toronto, they heard something rattle
so they rented a VW Vanagon

He likes girl drinks with a garnish and umbrella
he'll cut himself off when he turns greenish-yella
he'll pass you the check, what a really swell fella
that Tommy the Canexican

Tommy the Canexican
Vancouver-dwelling Mexican
The Great White North- the next to heaven
to Tommy the Canexican

A cute brown canuk singing sensation
really stands out in the church congregation
confuses the hell out of U.S. Immigration
Just cuz he's Canexican

His family up North has snow that's the truest
his family down South has skies that are bluest
They'd be a lot closer if it t'weren't for the U.S.
Poor Tommy the Canexican

Canada's dollar is droppin real low
but it's still doin better than the old peso
If Menudo ever sang with B.T.O
then Tommy'd be in heaven

Mike Clem © 2001 J. Fish Music/ASCAP

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 07:12 PM

How do you tell a black Irishman from an African-American? (This is a great set-up for a bad riddle ... ).

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 07:10 PM

So why shouldn't it be a Black Irishman?

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Mickey191
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 07:06 PM

I've noticed a change in the last few months of Suspected criminal's descriptions. They now say 6 feet-200 pounds- dark skinned. They show a sketch of an obviously African/American. Formerly it would have said: black man. Then we see the purp & he's definitely African/American. I think this is damn confusing if a neighborhood is on alert that a thug or rapist is wandering around. You could have a Black Irishman or an Indian selling books come under suspicion. I am nuts??

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 07:00 PM

Sometimes it's worthwhile to read the thread ... :

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:17 PM

..................................................................
..................................................................

"Hispanic" is another interesting descriptor. I can't put my finger on the exact date, but sometime in the '60s a small group of Federal employees were called together to come up with a term that would bring together the various Chicano(a)/Latino(a)/Hispano(a) terminology. What they came up with was "Hispanic," and defined it to include Spain and the Spanish-speaking nations of the Americas...and omitted Portugal and Brazil and the other non-Spanish speaking countries next door. Oddly enough, these individuals all had ancestry deriving from Spanish-speaking Central and South America. As an acquaintance, who is a Spanish teacher and professor of Spanish linguistics, reminded me recently, "Hispanic" describes a cultural group, not a ethnic or racial one. The King of Spain, President Chavez of Venezuela (who claims to be 100% Indio) and Alberto Fujimori, former President of Peru, are all Hispanic.

....................................................................
....................................................................

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST,Katz
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:40 PM

Why are Hispanic /Latin Americans categorized separately when required to identify race? Neither of these terms are racial identifiers. I know many Hispanics who are white. I know many Hispanics who are black. Is this a way of seperating non- WASPs from the desendents of predominately northern european white people? Or is it way of black people from latin america to seperate themselves from black USAmericans?

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 07:23 AM

The Tern friend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tern

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 02:07 AM

Oh, and the tern Friend wroks well too.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 02:03 AM

I find that the term 'people' or 'person' suits me well enough to describe somebody regardless of their depth of sun tan.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 06:28 PM

........& Amerindians aren't Indians!

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 07:33 PM

"...the genus Pan never made it to your continent."

You must be kidding!

What's the difference in principle between talking about "Irish Americans" or "African Americans" and so forth, on the one hand, and "tall Americans" or"red-headed Americans" and so forth on the other hand?

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 08:04 PM

You don't think? But...we have such liberal import laws. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 03:30 PM

I can't resist...

How about Panamerican? (Little Hawk)

You as the Mudcat experts on chimps should really know that the genus Pan never made it to your continent.

Wolfgang (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 12:30 AM

I think I've said it before, but I like how Morris Dees of the Southern Poverty Law Center designates people as "American" first, followed by "of (whatever) descent," i.e. "American of African/Irish/Italian (take your pick) descent."

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 10:08 PM

A fricken American?

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 10:00 PM

"I feel it's unusual that of all the places in the world, its predominantly in USA where these terms of 'some origin - American' are used."

Actually it's a very common and long-established practice in Canada, and in this case, it's NOT due to American influence. It's so accepted that you often hear the term "hyphenated Canadian" in discourse having to do with issues of multiculturalism, immigration, ethnicity, etc. Although, to be sure, it often appears in a negative context, as in someone saying, "I don't want to be a hyphenated-Canadian ... "

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 08:46 PM

How about Parmesan?

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 07:28 PM

Yup. One of them is wearing a very silly label.

African American have something to do with Africa and America.
Asian American have something to do with Asia and America.
Native Americans have something to do with America.
"Caucasians" have nothing whatsoever to do with the Caucasus.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 10:54 PM

How about Panamerican?

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 07:55 PM

One of these things is not like the others.
One of these things just doesn't belong.
Can you guess which thing is not like the others,
Before I finish my song?

African American
Asian American
Native American
Caucasian

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 05:39 PM

""And who wants to have a formal group referent that is the name of a hair style?""

Skinheads.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 08:29 AM

Nappy American would best be left unsaid

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Bee
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 08:09 AM

I rather miss the Afro. Not that today's hairstyles aren't sometimes very beautiful, or sleek and tidy, but the Afro makes a lovely cloud of hair around a person's face. Although it can be difficult to look after, especially with children - very tangly after swimming, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 07:34 AM

"And who wants to have a formal group referent that is the name of a hair style?"

Obviously, the Mullet-Americans

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 07:27 AM

& what about the natives of Barnet??

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:33 PM

Thanks for the information about racial referents used outside of the USA.

I think that African Americans use that catch-all referent because most of us don't know which nation or nations our African ancestors came from.

**

If I didn't say it before, I think the main reason why the term Afro-American didn't succeed in being the formal referent for Black Americans {from the USA} is because "Afro" doesn't refer to a geographical place {like German, Irish, Italian etc} does.

But also "Afro" is the name of a hair style.
And who wants to have a formal group referent that is the name of a hair style?

Not me.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:03 PM

"in many cases lack black blood"

When you think of it that's a really strange expression, "black blood" - picking on what is perhaps the most evident human characteristic where it undeniable that colour differences just don't exist.
...............

Curuiously enough Black people in England are much more liable to refer to themselves as "Black British" rather than "Black English" - I suspect that's largely becuase of the alliteration. Over the border in Scotland my impression is that they are more likely to say they are Black Scottish rather than Black British.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 06:26 PM

In Canada, Blacks seem mostly to use that term as an overall designation, but they prefer, at least in my experience, a name denoting their national origin; Somali, Nigerian, Kenyan, Ethiopian, Haitian, etc. Jamaicans are always Jamaican. As Bee notes, coloured is heard among Blacks in parts of eastern Canada where escaped slaves settled.
North Africans (Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, etc.) in many cases lack black blood; they go by their nationality but some call themselves Muslims.
In other words, Little Hawk's usage would work here. Considering the great difference in origins as well as race, 'African Canadian' would not be acceptable to most of them. Our Governor-General is Haitian-Canadian.

Some Latin-Americans who have settled here who have Negro blood mostly have Indian and white blood as well; hispanic is commonly used, since their language is Spanish mostly, but many say Mexican or whatever country of origin.

Looking at the usage in the New York Times, 'black' often appears, not capitalized (nor do they capitalize white).

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:16 AM

If I was referring to a Black man and didn't know where he was from, I'd refer to him as a "Black man". If I knew he was from Africa, I'd refer to him as an African. If I knew he was from Nigeria, I'd refer to him as a Nigerian. You go on the basis of how much you know. I would prefer not to call anyone an Afro-American, because I think it's a kind of cumbersome term, and I see no need for it.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Bee
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:02 AM

Regarding Canada, particularly Nova Scotia:

I think there was some attempt to bring into use the term 'African Canadian', some years ago, but it seems to have failed, and in my experience (mostly in Nova Scotia), everyone, including the Black community, uses the term 'Black'. While there are certainly Black people of African descent here, there are also large numbers of people descended from settlers from the West Indies and Jamaica, and many, many recent immigrants from countries of Africa, Jamaica and other places.

In Nova Scotia, there is also some heritage use of the term 'coloured', used by the Black community mainly for historic designations, and sometimes for organizations which include other ethnic derivations, 'Women of Colour', for example. Nova Scotia has some very old, historic Black settlements with deep roots here, and a strong culture.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:30 AM

Hiya Azizi!

'I'm curious as to how Africans in Canada and in the UK refer to themselves and how others refer to them.'


I've lazily not waded through all the posts in this thread but if not already mentioned, I feel there's a number of issues connected with 'people labelling'.

I feel it's unusual that of all the places in the world, its predominantly in USA where these terms of 'some origin - American' are used.

In Britain I've never heard folk referred to as 'French- British' etc
but on lots of official forms, such as census, job applications, they often ask ethnic origin questions & terms such as 'British English' , 'British Irish' are used.

Also ask to state racial origins 'white caucasian', 'caribbean' & so on.


A conclusion I draw from this categorisation of people, mainly by governments, is its another method of control & manipulation of populations of 'Citizens of the World' by imposing these labels upon them,& cleverly & cynically persuading them that its pc.

Wot u think?

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 09:29 AM

I agree with you Mr Happy regarding both of your posts.

I have used "European American" as a general referent. But I certainly don't think its inappropriate to use the the specific ethnic group referent [such as Irish American]. I find it interesting that "English American" doesn't seem to be used as a group referent for those people from England. Instead the term "English" is used by itself. Have other people found this to be so? and why is that, I wonder?

**

Also, I think that people from African nations living in the USA refer to themselves by the name of their nation {for instance, people from Nigeria refer to themselves as Nigerians, not Nigerian Americans...and maybe they actually refer to themselves by the ethnic group they belong to such as Yoruba or Ibo}.

But I think that other people seeing these Black Africans in the USA refer to them as Black people or Black Americans or African Americans.

Is this correct or incorrect? I don't know.

I'm curious as to how Africans in Canada and in the UK refer to themselves and how others refer to them.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:47 AM

or alternatively 'Senegali Americans', 'Djibutian Americans' etc

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:43 AM

I may be called pedantic here, but

'The use of "African" connects us {Black Americans} to a geographical location like "Italian American", "Irish American", "German American" does. '

if this is the case, and as 'Africa' is a continent not a country, perhaps the other groups such as "Italian American", "Irish American", ought to be known as 'European Americans'?

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:32 AM

Fwiw, for the most part I agree with Delina D. Pryce's statement that racial categories and ethnic categories are largely inaccurate and silly in this day and age. For example, I have repeatedly written-on this forum and elsewhere-that it is a racist construct to believe that one drop of 'black blood' makes a person Black. This has long been the social if not the legal definition for who is or is not a Black American. The implication of the 'one drop of black blood' maxim is that Black African ancestry is a highly negative condition; 'Black blood' is so tainted that even one drop pollutes the blood stream in perpetuity.

I have often said-with some degree of facetitiousness but also seriously- that perhaps the only way to eradicate the exclusive definition of the White race is for people who know that they have first and second and third generation White ancestry to insist that they are White-regardless of how dark or light their skin is.

I have also said-on this forum and elsewhere- that-in my opinion, it is the positive and negative values ascribed to races that are the problem and not racial categories as descriptors of individuals and groups of people.

**

Also, fwiw, I don't agree with Delina D. Pryce's statement [that I've read elsewhere] that "Racism is prejudice combined with power".
Generally speaking, Black and Brown people are powerless. Yet there are Black and Brown individuals and groups who act and think in racist ways.

I would agree with Pryce's statement if she had written that institutional racism is prejudice combined with power.

Definitions of Institutional racism on the Web include:

"Those forces, social arrangements, institutions, structures, policies, precedents and systems of social relations that operate to deprive certain racially identified categories equality" .
www.socialpolicy.ca/i.htm

or "structural racial discrimination -- racial discrimination by governments, corporations, or other large organizations. (eg Mary cannot get a job, despite her qualifications, because she is of race Y.)"
www.politicalinformation.net/encyclopedia/Racism.htm

"Institutional racism (or structural racism) is a form of racism that occurs in institutions such as public bodies and corporations, including universities."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:22 AM

For those interested in the subject of Black as a group referent, here's a link to an online article that I recently found:

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/40/063.html

"Black Latina"
By Delina D. Pryce in "Hispanic" magazine, March 1999

Here's a long excerpt from that article:

..."If I received a dollar for every time I heard " You're not black you're Hispanic" or "You're not Hispanic your black." I'd be well on my way to equaling [former major-league baseball player Ruben Sierra]'s small fortune. To a lot of people, and to the majority of the people I've met, "black" and "Latino" are mutually exclusive terms.

Reality couldn't be further from the truth.

Many people don't realize that slave ships dropped Africans off not only in the United States but also in the Caribbean, Mexico, Central America, and South America. Blacks in this country share a common history with those in the Caribbean and Latin America. Yet, because historical circumstances have created a variety of cultures within the black community in the Americas, people, including blacks themselves, are quick to make distinctions.

It saddens me that those with an obviously African ancestry refuse to acknowledge it, clinging instead to a lone term, "Hispanic" or "Latino"...

I was born in Costa Rica, moved to Mexico when I was two years old, and have been living in Texas for almost fourteen years. Yes, my upbringing was unlike most of my black friends in the States. Still, I am more like them than I'm like my Hispanic friends from various countries. We listen to the same music, enjoy the same churches, use the same hair stylists, and experience the same strain of racism. In a lot of ways it's easier for my black friends to comprehend that there is an African Diaspora. They see the fact that I speak Spanish as an asset ("Can you help me with my Spanish homework?"). If anything has been harder for me to explain to them, it's that I'm not "mixed with Hispanic."

On the other hand, my Latino friends see my race as a liability. "You're not black, like the African Americans in the United States," one told me recently. It bothers me that to accept me they want to distance me from being black, which carries negative connotations in the Americas. Some even have the audacity to tell me why they despise "those black people."

They even wait for me to agree.

In Peru, blacks are still being used as ornamental images--chauffeurs, pallbearers, valets, and servants. In Brazil, blacks are considered marginal members of society. In countless other Latin American countries, blacks are shut out of government and positions of power. Television shows, news programs, and beauty magazines omit dark faces. The denial of racial diversity in the media, government and business is much like what the United States faced 30 years ago. "We are looking for ways to improve our self-esteem because the society conveys to blacks that we are nothing. We want to let people know that we are not only there to cook and play football "[soccer]" said Piedad Cordoba de Castro, the first black woman to become senator in Colombia, in a 1995 Dallas Morning News article.

This is why I think it is foolish for black Latinos to overlook their blackness and believe they are Hispanic like their countrymen of European ancestry." The effort to build a black consciousness movement in Latin America has been hobbled by the low level of racial identification among blacks," Cordoba de Castro said. A hierarchy exists within Latin American countries. Those of European ancestry are at the top and those of African heritage are at the bottom, one notch below indigenous people. Those of mixed race-mestizos (indigenous and Caucasian) and malattos (indigenous and Negroid)--fall some where in between. Many blacks are eager to point out their Indian blood thus elevating themselves above black.

I realize the inaccuracy and silliness of racial and ethnic categories in this day and age. Contrary to neo-Nazi belief, no one is really any one thing anymore. What still remains, inequality and power, all over the world, is defined and determined in racial terms. For this reason, racial identification should be used to unite and struggle together for equality.

The stupidity of useless racial identification stems from the ignorance of racism. Black Latinos, who don't identify themselves as such, try to be exceptions to the rules and stereotypes that govern blacks. But racists don't care if you're bilingual and international. The very nature of prejudice does not allow for exceptions; it looks at group traits, not at individuals. Racism is prejudice combined with power. Until black Hispanics believe this, they will continue to be happily oppressed, and not even realize it (and even deny it)..."

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:56 AM

"Please if you wish to bring this subject up again, and I'm sure you will, can you please start a thread about it, or post it in an appropriate thread".

This comment was made in thread.cfm?threadid=100632&messages=69 BS: Where has all the hostility gone ? in response to my post about the possible negative connotations of the word 'black' when used in everyday language.

Rather than start a new thread, I decided to refresh this thread.

Why? Because I would like to continue this discussion.

Why? Because I think it is an important area of consideration for a folk/blues forum and for people living in a multi-racial world and trying to understand each other.

In the hostility thread I commented about the negative connotations in society of the color black. Here's an excerpt of that comment:

..."I'm not interested in starting an argument, but I need to share an opinion that I believe is held by a number of Black people- the use of 'black' as a referent for something bad, or evil has a cumulative, negative hurtful psycho-social effect on black and brown skinned people and also perhaps more indirectly on people who do not have black and brown skin"...
-snip-

The entire comment can be found here.

My conclusions might be right or they might be wrong. But rather than focus on whether my comments were correct, I'd like to focus on the responses on that thread that I received to those comments. In reading the responses to my comment, I believe that folks thought that I was speaking against the use of "Black" as a racial group referent. That was definitely not my intention.

As I am so used to capitalizing 'Black' when using it as a racial referent, I did not think that my comments about the color black would be interpreted [or misinterpreted] that way.

I should have realized that there are many people here and elsewhere-both non-Black and Black- who do not capitalize the word Black when it is used as a racial referent.

Be that as it may, I want to clarify that I consider Black to be an appropriate informal reference for African Americans {meaning those people who are formerly known as "Negro", "Colored people", and
"Afro-Americans"}. "Black Americans" is also an appropriate reference for African Americans.

Note that the referent "African American" is almost always capitalized-especially by African Americans. However, there are differences of opinions among African Americans-and others-as to whether the group referent 'Black' should be capitalized. [For consistency's sake, I also capitalize "White" when it is used as a group referent. Most people don't].

Basically, I've found that people who belong to the two schools of thought on whether Black should be capitalized, don't read anything negative into the fact that some people capitalize the first letter of the word Black and some people don't. However, the subject of whether "Negro" or "African American should be capitalized is a whole different story.

In the 1950s, there were strenuous campaigns mounted by Black Americans to get the print media to routinely capitalize "Negro" as they routinely capitalized other ethnic referents {such as Irish, English, Italian, German, and Russian}. Eventually, these campaigns were successful. Nowadays, the group referent "Negro" has been retired and replaced by "African American" {the formal referent} and by "Black" {the informal referent}. However, from time to time, Black people {and others}may use "negro" with a lower case first letter or with a capital first letter. In doing so, that writer is conveying his or her opinion that the person described as a negro or Negro acts or speaks in a subservient "Uncle Tom" or "Aunt Jemima" manner. In other words, almost always nowadays when an African American uses "Negro" or "negro" to refer to another Black person, that person is being insulted.   

I should also clarify that in my opinion and I believe in the opinion of most African Americans, an African American does not have to have any ancestors who were enslaved.

[And/But] "Black" is a larger group referent then "African American".
The way that I {and I believe many African Americans] use "Black", this group referent refers to all those people in Africa and in the African Diaspora who have [dare I say] "Negroid" ancestry regardless of these people's skin complexion. "Black" also refers to people from Australia who are called Aborigines {my apology if that is not the correct referent} and people who are from nations such as Fiji who have naturally dark skin.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: gnu
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 01:57 PM

Awww... ain't they cute?

Fascinating discussion. I am learning a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 12:08 PM

Let's try that again.

I messed something up first time.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 12:04 PM

Here's you link as a blicky, leeneia.

A couple of really cute kids.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 11:11 AM

In my experience, if a person is part black, the black community accepts that person as a full member. Or maybe it's just marketing again.

Sort of like the Irish, who have regional auditions for the All-Ireland Championships in America (and other places, no doubt.) The idea is that if you're partly in, you're in.

Doesn't anybody want to follow my link (above) and see the adorable twin sisters? I admit it's startling.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST,GUEST - Sandling
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 09:29 AM

Halle Berry had an African-American father who, according to the papers, abandoned the family, and was generally a thoroughly bad lot. Her 'Caucasian' mother brought her up single-handed and supported her through her difficult early times as an actress. So why is it she calls herself 'Black'? Just wondered.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 05:00 AM

To enlarge a little from the view of someone who actually did watch the show. The three girls currently vilified in our media as racist bullys were not showing special treatment of Shilpa because of her race.

But they were guilty of just accepting and treating her as they would any other resident of our multi cutural if confused society. Exactly what they are expected to do and have done all of their lives in this land.

That was perhaps start of their problem.

For Shilpa was not a resident. And made it clear that she was there to represent her country (not she appears to have asked her fellow residents if they feel her qualified for this).

Many the other residents for reasons of their own were prepared to indulge her to the extent of giving in to her insistence of cooking for everyone and of largely deciding what food was obtained.

Even though she was not an experenced cook, thought the grill was the oven and out of this presented an uncooked chicken and then blocked up the toilet by trying to flush the bones away (and then expected someone else to unblock it).

Anyone who did not eat the food she insisted they eat, was being judge to be ungrateful for her efforts. And largely as a result of the others dishonesty, the few who were not prepared to indulge this crontrol freak to the extent of poisoning themselves, were assumed to have darker reasons for not being prepared to indulge Shilpa in this reagrd and in everything else.

Like her insistence in going first and keeping her equally cold and mud-slattered housemates out of the only shower.

Assuming that everyone should indulge her to that extent and that her personality was so loved by the rest of the group and could not possibly be at fault - Shilpa then goes to her fawning group and asks - why do they hate me so much?

To which she gets the answer she expects and wants to hear voiced.

Now why is it OK for Shilpa to make it clear that her home is not in this country but judged to be racist when Danielle wishes she fuck off to that home?

If it were Dirk Benedict (an American) who was expected to fuck off to his home - it may have been thought equally impolite but would not have been judged to be racist.

And even if it were Jermaine Jackson - it would not have been judged to have been racist.

Had Shilpa in fact been a UK resident and acting like one - the thought that this was not Shilpa's home would probably never had occured to Danielle (along with many other things).

What I am suggesting is that what has been evidenced is not our country's racism but its acceptance of all cultures. That it should not being seen to be condemned but celebrated.

That it was the refusal to give special treatment to Shilpa as a representitive of her race and country and treating her as an individual - that was the cause of all this fuss.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:33 AM

To pay the recent Big Brother more attention than it deserves,....

So why do you and most of our media do it.

You appear to want it both ways and wish to judge an expression as monsterous, racist and blow it up out of all proportion - when it is used on a show you judge does not deserve the very attention you are choosing to give certain edited comments from it (whilst ignoring others).

For the show is a reality show. There is no script and anyone watching will know that they risk being offended by what the contestents (for it is a game show) may say or do.

I hope it is not being suggested that such shows should be banned or that they should be scripted.

The point is that many who are objecting do not watch the show and are really objecting to people on a TV show being left to say, do and respond to, pretty much what they wish to.

Yes with that freedom comes some responsibilty and those contestants must accept that they will open themselves up for judgement.

And if anyone on the show was in fact seen to use it as a platform for racism or any form of prejudice - I would be one of the first to object to these comments (but not to the platform offered).

But let any judgement be fair and based on the reality of the show and kept in proportion - not this confused dishonest and jealous over-reaction to a successful show and successful contestants being dressed up as noble defence of political correctness and (certain) minority groups.

BB (not perhaps the celeb version) does show us the way things are - and they may not be the way we would like them to be - but that is its value.

It shows us the real personalities of the housemates and then asks us to make a subjective choice about who we like and don't like.

This version was intersting as we conflict caused by most of the group being prepared to indulge someone who expected to be indulged and didn't really accept anyone who was not prepared to indulge them.

It is just as interesting that if the voting was to be believed - the public did not see this. In the past they have usually been able to distingush between those who are being honest and those who are trying to play a role in order to win.

Perhaps many of those voting this time were not the usual viewers voting on this basis but on some other agenda?