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Boring participants
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Subject: Boring participants From: steve in ottawa Date: 23 Mar 99 - 12:26 PM In the thread about comic songs, two people mentioned migrations to the bar/kitchen whenever particularly boring participants launched into particularly boring renditions of songs. I'm happy to say that doesn't happen in the main group I sing with right now. I used to attend a group where that happened a LOT. Now, while I despaired over the people who would clap, congradulate, and encourage utterly boring, lazy, self-centered performers, I didn't like the people who ran off either. Any comments about dealing with that sort of thing? |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: MMario Date: 23 Mar 99 - 12:30 PM believe it or not, in some groups you will have both people who consider a particular rendition or song boring, and or distasteful AND people who like/love/adore/worship that particular rendition. And sometimes it comes down to a catch 22 between being rude or encouraging something you don't want... MMario |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: Teresa Date: 23 Mar 99 - 02:03 PM Whew! I was getting scared when I saw that thread title. I thought you were talking about boring participants in the Mudcat, and I was gearing myself up for a fight! **big grin** Yes, I have indeed encountered this phenomenon. I basically shrug it off with a "there's no accounting for taste" sort of thought. Teresa |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: The Shambles Date: 23 Mar 99 - 02:14 PM I think the approach to take is that if you would like people to listen to you then you really owe it to them to listen to them in turn, no matter how painful. If you go with the idea that it is all going to be painful and prepare for the worst, you may find that you are plasantly suprised. The only other answer is not to go at all.
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: Songbob Date: 23 Mar 99 - 02:23 PM Well, there's boring and there's deadly and then there's inept. If it's a place where I can easily slip out (like an open stage) I sometimes find that my drink needs refreshing or my tires rotating, but I usually give the benefit of the doubt to folks like that. I definitely try to encourage such folks to improve on their performance, though, and have even stopped one or two (not strangers -- this is reserved for folks you'd like to help) and suggested a better key, or helped 'em tune the guitar, or even helped prompt them for words (if that's the problem). I sometimes play along, to help -- if it's possible -- keep the rhythm and chords in line with the vocal. There are times, though, when leaving is the only solution. I went to an out-of-town (unnamed New England state capital city folk club) getaway once, and there was one guy who had the most peculiar idea of the tune to well-known songs and an even more peculiar idea of what constituted an acceptable original song (protest songs about the old South Africa sung two or three years after Mandela's return don't "cut it" for relevance, to me). I had to leave his presence whenever he cut loose. Just couldn't take it. Just couldn't! A friend said he heard the guy -- whose vocals were almost a monotone when singing with guitar -- sing unaccompanied, and he said the guy had a range of over 20 notes -- in one octave! Pretty hard to take, sometimes. But usually, it works best to be polite but non-encouraging unless you can guide such performers in the direction of better performances. If the problem is one of taste, not performance, then silence is your only answer. You can't mandate taste, nor alter one another's except by example. So the only response to the truly boring is to be so interesting, so wonderful, so musical, that that person will want to copy you and your exquisite taste. That's how I see it, anyway. Bob Clayton |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: Bert Date: 23 Mar 99 - 02:42 PM If someone is really trying then you have to listen to them - no matter what. If they come from a Middle Eastern family then they would quite likely find more than 13 notes in an octave. Encourage all beginners, we all had to start somewhere and I am sure that most of us bored our parents or spouses to tears in times past. Now's the time to pay our dues. There are only two kinds of people that I consider it OK to walk out on. ONE: Those who steal an extra turn at someone else's expense. (Guitar hogs) TWO: Those who have walked out on a previous performer. (Inconsiderate oafs) And we should ALL walk out on those guys. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: The Shambles Date: 23 Mar 99 - 03:08 PM Good one Bert. Do you have a song on the subject? Or even a sog. |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: j0_77 Date: 23 Mar 99 - 03:26 PM There are several issues here so I'll keep it short. 1 Bad manners - unacceptable 2 Don't walk off on anyone ever 3 Remebering all the words and music is hard - so if I hear all the words of the song and get a 'story' I am happy - sometimes singers forget a word or line and make it up - OK 4 Protest songs and S Africa ( the old Orange State) - well you have to remember that this organization is far from out of bussinness - just this last W/E in N Ireland they assasinated a Woman Attorney. Her name is Rosemary Nelson. Her crime - defending residents of a minority neighborhood. The 'soldiers' who did this were men. What kind of ideology convinces men to turn into cowards? Is it a good Ideology? Is it a new form of Fascism like we had in WW2? It is here and folks you better be ready, they stop at nothing. Take Care |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: Bill D Date: 23 Mar 99 - 03:42 PM there are two 'basic' types of sing...one with rules, and one without. If there are rules, like 'going around the circle and everyone is offered a turn', then it is easy to decide some issues...and within that it is good to be polite to those who are really trying. But there are people who will NOT practice or learn the song, and try to render it with almost NO notion of time, tune, words...etc. Why they bother, I don't know. Then there those who simply have a 'tin ear' and can't cope with tunes...After a few years, it becomes VERY tempting to 'rotate one's tires' when they are due up...but I try to endure. But...to the 2nd type of sing..one with no official rules, where people just gather to make music...(used to be called a 'hootenanny' when it was at a private home)..and it is there that the real issues arise. I find that often it is the most talented performers...who know the most songs...that 'hog' the limelight, as if they have a deep need to 'show' all their current favorites. Often I truly enjoy their singing, but want to hear others too....and here it is not easy to decide to walk out...they would not be likely to notice anyway. ...The ones who really bother me are those with 'programs' running in their heads...they have several songs picked out to 'do' that night, and they sit...waiting for a clear moment, then jump in as the last note of the previous song is dying...never caring, if in a group of 15, they just sang 3 songs ago...or whether they are totally destroying the mood. I have gotten so I can read the body language as they prime themselves...*grin*..and if you get 2 or 3 of these in a group, it is like musical Bosnia! Ballads flying and chanteys booming...not necessarily in that order. Pretty soon, the whole situation become, if not boring, at least tiring....even with *good* songs being sung. So...there is no easy answer. I have watched, at camps, entire mass movements of musicians trying to sneak away and draw just those THEY want to a new site. (Who among us has not suddenly discovered that the wonderful group you were singing with an hour ago has melted and there you are...surrounded by ALL the boring ones...*wink*...and no one told YOU where the good guys went!) Hmmmm...maybe I am one of the boring ones!! Horrors!! |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: Bert Date: 23 Mar 99 - 04:30 PM No Shambles, I don't have a song or a sog. I had a friend once who wrote a song about a similar issue in the Square Dance fraternity; about what they'd find when they get to heaven. It's called "Rusty Old Halo" The Chorus goes... Rusty Old Halo a skinny white cloud second hand wings full of patches a Rusty Old Halo a skinny white cloud and a robe so wooly it scratches. I suppose we could make up a few appropriate verses. jo77, 'don't walk off on anyone ever'. I used to think that way and would still like to, but I don't have much time for rude folks nowadays. Mistakes from people who don't know the rules are OK, but I have lost patience with old timers who have no consideration for the rest of the group. Bill D. Having said that to jo77 I'll try to say this without being rude myself. You say...'But there are people who will NOT practice or learn the song, and try to render it with almost NO notion of time, tune, words...etc.' That was me at first. I'm hope that you were perfect when you started out and no one ever had to cut you any slack. and...'The ones who ... have several songs picked out to 'do' that night.' Well I have to confess that is me again (I'm a bloody awfull guitar player but a fair singer). I am not that good that I can jump in with a song that fits the mood. I have to practise up a bit on a song or two. BUT HEY isn't that what you said we should do?? So Bill, there is another side to every story and if you think I'm picking on you, perhaps it's because you seemed to be picking on me a time or two there. I know you didn't mean to offend and nor do I. I just want to give another point of view. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: steve in ottawa Date: 23 Mar 99 - 04:56 PM Not do a shanty after a ballad??? Or a ballad after a shanty???
Opps.
Hehehehehehehehehe.
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: SeanM Date: 23 Mar 99 - 07:23 PM Coming from Southern California, where just about every coffee shop has a singer planted in the corner with an acoustic guitar that he may or may not have any idea how to play, this is a situation that becomes unfortunately common. The way I see it, if you are in an informal situation without a set start or finish time, then I'd say it's acceptable to leave... at the end of the song (and no clawing at the doors yelling 'PLEASE GOD, NO ENCORE!!!'. It's not nice. (NOI to those of you putting in your time). However, if it's not that kind of a situation (i.e., you paid to see this person play or went to a show just to see them), then it's the worst kind of thing to do to the performer. Most of us out there can sense the deadly silence of a show gone wrong, and hopefully can either fix it or shorten the set - and I've been to some sets that started out somewhere underneath gutter level and then took flight, leading to some of the best memories I have. All things considered, if you went to see someone play, then stand by them. If you went over to someone's house, you (hopefully) wouldn't stand up and walk out without explanantion because the conversation was dragging. And even in the worst scenarios, walking out during a song is the height of gauche behaviour. All of this is opinion, but it's what I set my lights by... M |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: Bill D Date: 23 Mar 99 - 07:40 PM ah, the trouble with short posts...*smile*...it would take an hour of TALK to say well what I was trying to... Bert...of course there are many sides to each story...and I really was not complaining about those 'just starting out'...(there was a lot of slack cut for me in my time!). It really depends on the setting and situation.....in our 'Open Sing', there is very wide tolerance for new & less-than-expert participants...but IF one wants to lead songs or sing in front of a group, it is a good idea to reach a certain level, or the experience is no fun for either singer or audience..(that need not be a terribly high level, but enough to get thru a 'recognizable' song)...I, myself, will win no prizes, but there are songs I 'know' that I simply cannot sing...and I will not inflict them on people. As I said (or tried to say), my real grump is with those who show up over & over and seemingly make no effort to improve. It is far better to sing on choruses and in the shower until you reach a bare minimum...I am sorry if this makes me sound elitist in some way...I really do not make fun of new singers or walk out on them...I don't even care if they use notes or books if they are not sure of themselves, but when they cannot even read the song from a book and keep up the rhythm or tune, it is time to practice! As to 'The ones who ... have several songs picked out to 'do' that night.'...this is less of a problem..*shrug*..but a little sense of where they 'fit' is always helpful.
"Not do a shanty after a ballad??? I suspect, Bert, that if we ended up singing in the same group, you would never have any idea that I was harboring such grumpy opinions *smile*...I do hate to offend anyone or hurt anyone's feelings, and I would do a LOT of silent suffering before I'd say anything...and then I'd try to be as tactful as possible. There is one well known and respected guy I sometimes hear sing (whom I like personally) who, frankly, is a real pro at taking every 3rd or 4th song in a large group with little sense of where it fits or who he is shutting out..and I have never said a word to him....he has some good songs, and he simply would not understand why I was picking on him...so...*shrug* Maybe I am saying all this here because I would never say it in public and embarass anyone....
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: bill\sables Date: 23 Mar 99 - 07:59 PM I find the best way to judge if a song or tune is going down o.k and is not boreing is to see if others are joining in or not . I recall a session when a musician playing melodeon was trying to take over the evening by playing tunes he excelled in, it ended up with only him playing solo. So now if i find no one is joining in with me I change the tune to one everyone knows |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: Barbara Shaw Date: 23 Mar 99 - 09:02 PM In our monthly folk circle, I always get up and leave every once in awhile, to get a drink, use the restroom, go look for my capo, whatever. Hope the people doing their turn didn't take it personally, but now you've made me aware that I may have offended. I'll have to keep track of whom I walk out on so I can rotate the offense! |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: catspaw49 Date: 23 Mar 99 - 10:28 PM I'm not an active participant in any song circles so I"m just curious to know something. I kinda' assumed that the "lead" or whatever passed around so as everyone had a chance or two to do and/or lead a tune or two. (Finished my "TWOSIES"...oops, wrong thread) The more I read the more it seems to me that an awful lot of folks do the same song all the time...or at least one time per meeting. Now this would frankly bore me stiff. Isn't there some sorta' thing that says you can't do the same worn out thing all the time? Maybe I'd politely ask that ALL of us do new material each session and then, every third or fourth, make it a favorites night. Then if Gaylord Pharquar doesn't get the hint, quietly suggest to him in an aside that if he plays "Bosco's Bonnie Bordello" one more time, he's going to have to to remove his plywood Framus from his nether regions prior to defecation." If this fails to produce the desired "halo effect" go ahead and shove the guitar up his kazoo. If this guy's boring everybody to death, who cares, what's to lose? Just a thought. catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: Alice Date: 23 Mar 99 - 11:50 PM Yes, catspaw, there are favorite songs that get sung over, and over, and over... until you want to say, no, nay, never no more! I used to try to sing a different song everytime I could stand up and sing with the group, but then I eventually found out that there was only ONE song they all really wanted me to sing so they could sing along. (...talk about boring) But I try to oblige, yet there are times when I(!) have walked out before I have to sing it again!! What is the song? My own version of South Australia. Now, for a soprano, if you want to really ruin your vocal chords, lead a sea chanty in a smokey pub. |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: alison Date: 24 Mar 99 - 02:06 AM Hi, I think a lot of this simply comes down to good manners. I was brought up to believe in not leaving or entering a room until someone was finished speaking, singing, playing or whatever.. so as not to interupt. Aussie folk clubs (well the ones I have been to.. don't seem to apply this) people get up and walk in and out at will. they walk in shuffle chairs etc and even tune up while other people are performing...... especially irritating when someone is trying to do a ballad or poem.. (you don't notice as much during a raucous shanty) I don't see anything wrong with going out ... but people should wait for an appropriate break in proceedings... eg end of the song.... Admittedly you do get used to it after a while, but I still think its rude... and have been standing in a doorway quietly listening for someone else to finish before I walk in... when others have happily barged in past me.... I guess its what you're used to....... slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: steve in ottawa Date: 24 Mar 99 - 03:19 AM Wow. Someone else who's been barged past while waiting. The most amazing thing is when the bargee then plops down in your chair. Some people...tsk tsk :-) I *now* remember concluding a long time ago that if there were no organized breaks in the evening, people would naturally get up and walk out on the most boring participants, and if you had smokers in a non-smoking song-thing, they'd get up and walk-out despite your inclusion of organized breaks. What I continue to be most interested in is along SongBob's line: when you do give advice to neophytes/gentle abprobation to those who should know better, is there any result? Finally, I gotta say again, if someone's been practicing a song all month and they've got one chance to show it off to their friends, then HANG the mood change. Oddly though, I've most often heard complaints about too many songs in a row with the SAME mood. Lastly (did I say finally already?) I wonder about people who profess to enjoy folk music, yet don't enjoy hearing songs casually repeated. One of the neat things that sometimes happens is that a group slowly gets better at singing certain songs -- like practice in extreme slow motion. There certainly is a limit, but if you think everyone should be bringing a new song every gathering... yeesh. That would be beyond many participant's abilities, and would seriously dumb down the quality of the performances of the amateurs I make music with. |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: Ian Date: 24 Mar 99 - 03:52 AM omigawd. What's in a thread name? I was looking for some tips on how to bore people! |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: Sam Pirt Date: 24 Mar 99 - 07:44 AM You need an almost telepathic mind to see if the audience are finding what you do boring. Usually if they are listening they are interested but the longer your set is the more likley they are to get bored. In terms of ballad singer and bordom, I think it depends on the singer. If they really know the song and interpret it with feeling I don't think it will seem boring because a good ballad singer should involve the audience in the story and make them feel like they want to know what happens next. If how ever a person sings a ballad or any song or tune fpor that matter if they don't dip into the tune and express it as they feel fit it will ether sound like a set of random notes or words, Now thats Boring. Bye, Sam |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: Spud Date: 24 Mar 99 - 08:11 AM It just comes down to manners. I bored many a person while learning to play, but playing with others is the best way to improve. Were you perfect when you started out? Unless someone asks you for help or advice, don't offer it. If you end up pissing them off, they'll assume that nothing you say is worthwhile anyhow. ...And... if someone is "getting it wrong" that could be their interpretation of the song. Isn't that what the folk process is all about? I'm sure their used to be many of us white folk who used to think that "blue notes" were wrong. But they sure do sound cool. |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: Barbara Date: 24 Mar 99 - 08:23 AM Last week at the pub sing I regularly attend, someone took me aside and asked me to sing the same song several times in a row instead of always singing new ones. His point was that since we don't use words or books, it takes folks several times in a row to learn the chorus and come up with good harmonies. I thought he had a point. There's another guy at this sing that if I didn't find him funny, I'd have strangled him years ago. He's one of these good singer/instrumentalist types that hasn't quite twigged to the fact that there are other people on the face of this planet besides himself. Or maybe its just he feels that way about women. He picks up my songs, sings them and forgets that he learned them from me, and then lectures me on their origins. He's even asked me a question, and then started talking to someone else as soon as I started to answer. He orders things from the waiter and talks in the middle of a new song I am singing, and it really throws me. When I said I was going to sing my ghost song again, and I'd appreciate it if he would not order drinks in the middle of it this time, he looked me straight in the eye and said, "Do you sing a ghost song? I don't remember. Is it that same boring one Meryle does?" (No, it's a different boring one.) Last week while I was singing, he decided to pick up something under the table and hit his head coming back up, and it took him two verses and a chorus to quit talking to people about it. That is to say, there are worse things than the people who get up and leave the room when they're bored. There are the ones who stay. Blessings, Barbara |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: MMario Date: 24 Mar 99 - 08:28 AM Someone mentioned above that most of us are aware of the "deadly silence" when a set or song is boring the audience. That reminds me of a time recently when the room got quieter and quieter as I sang - and I was really afraid I was losing them...but I had really wanted to DO this song for a long time...so I kept on, just thinking to myself I wouldn't ever do the song again. I finished - and the silence WAS deadly...until I looked up and saw about half the audience crying. No applause was ever sweeter. MMario |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: catspaw49 Date: 24 Mar 99 - 09:30 AM Sorry Group...I had the idea from this thread and lots of other comments in other threads that people were really aggravated by someone who would do the same thing all the time, like a bad rendition of Sloop John B comes to mind. Somebody brought that one up. Anyway, sounds more like the normal things that make boring people carry right on over into your song circles. catspaw |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: The Shambles Date: 24 Mar 99 - 05:15 PM Alison You are quite right of course, it is just basic good manners and as Catspaw says it's exactly the same things in sessions, as it is in life. Bert A Rusty Old Halo, I shall be lucky to even get that. You did not give the right response to my question, as to whether you had a song on the subject. If you hadn't you were supposed to say, no have you?????? But I'll post it anyway. *smiles* I always feel better after I sing this one but I do have to carefully explain to the audience that it is about a particular place and time and is not about them. Otherwise they are usually gone before the end of the song. It was a place where songwriters could go and perform to an audience that consisted of other songwriters. The idea was that they, of all people would provide a sympathetic audience for original material. It was a disaster of course as they were too busy either preparing to perform or flushed with success after they had performed, to actually listen to anybody else and just went through the motions, clapping dutyfully at the end of songs.
Without the song, there's no show.
I saw no storm clouds appear
You know you're the best
Small fishes, small ponds
The singers come and go
The bottle may be shattered Roger Gall 1997 |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: Bert Date: 25 Mar 99 - 02:48 PM Shambles, Sorry about that, I'll try better next time. Love that song, having been a member of one or two songwriters clubs (for club read 'mutual admiration society'). Remember those folks who only had one song and it wasn't a hit because of the 'conspiracy' of those already in the business? Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: AlistairUK Date: 25 Mar 99 - 03:06 PM But some people just never learn. At a club I used to frequent there was a guy who couldn't sing , couldn't play and basically had difficulty interacting with his fellow human beings...after 2 years of being polite I and several others often found that our beer glasses needed recharging. there was also the guy who alway s sang ballads that lasted more than half an hour...sorry but when I've heard Ratcliffe Highway more than 30 times it starts to grate and no matter how fine the voice I tend to get bored. |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: Bert Date: 25 Mar 99 - 03:35 PM Yes, I think two years of that would kill me too. |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: Jaxon Date: 25 Mar 99 - 05:01 PM We have a person who frequents our haunts who sounds like Neil Young on helium. He also makes up his own chords, many of which hurt my ears. Through the grace of God he understands that he plays differently than most folks and doesn't mind when people have to leave during his songs. I stay as long as I can but it is very difficult. He usually asks to go last at the open mics. Jack Murray |
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Subject: RE: Boring participants From: Bill D Date: 25 Mar 99 - 05:57 PM we once had a sing on the topic..."Oh, no...not again!"...dedicated to 'airing' those songs which had been over-done, over-requested and just plain tedious. The theory was that this would be a polite way to state publicly what you were totally tired of.. It worked fairly well, though, as they say, 'scholars differ'... We tend to forget, though, that in the old days, in pubs and homes, not many folk knew hundreds of songs, and there was a regular pattern of what was done. Some people WANT the familar and comfortable...others are forever hungry for new stuff. |
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