BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents

Subject: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 09:51 PM

The McConnell Center at the University of Louisville (Ky.) conducted a survey of presidential scholars (at a conference on Feb. 18 & 19, 2006) and compiled a list of the 10 worst mistakes made by US presidents.

I think they deliberately omitted the Iraq war because it was (then) too recent and too controversial.

I know how y'all love lists. I like this one, because it helps put things in historical perspective.

I have copied only the titles. Their web site has a few paragraphs of explanation for each item.

* * *

Top Ten Greatest Presidential Mistakes

1. James Buchanan: Failure to oppose secession

2. Andrew Johnson: Reconstruction Policies

3. Lyndon Johnson: Escalation of the Vietnam War

4. Woodrow Wilson: Refusal to compromise on Treaty of Versailles

5. Richard Nixon: Watergate

6. James Madison: War of 1812 with Britain

7. Thomas Jefferson: Embargo Act of 1807

8. John Kennedy: Bay of Pigs Invasion

9. Ronald Reagan: Iran-Contra Affair

10. Bill Clinton: Monica Lewinsky Scandal

[My own reaction: I only question the inclusion of #5 and #10. As embarrassing as they were, nobody died. Arguably, though, if Clinton had resigned, Al Gore might have gotten us to do something about global warming a lot sooner.]

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: heric
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 10:16 PM

That list doesn't even include George Bush blowing chow into the lap of the Prime Minister of Japan.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 10:27 PM

well, #10 shouldn't even be in the top 50, as stupid as it was. (I'd vote it WAY up on a "stupid" list)....and I dunno about Watergate. That is 2 different issues...the burglaries and the coverup.

I suspect that there are other examples to include.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: heric
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 11:42 PM

JFK (and Jackie) would probably want to argue going to Cuba versus going to Dallas.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:22 AM

How about the night Mrs. G. Bush senior got pregnant?

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Wordsmith
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 02:36 AM

I quote from my local newspaper's Opinion page: Count me as one of those who fear that Hillary Clinton election to the presidency could lead to her husband's influence on policy. That might lead to another 8 years of peace and prosperity. How I would miss the integrity, competency, morality and humility shown by our current administration. I don't think Clinton belongs on the list either. 10. G.W. Bush: Letting Osama bin Laden Escape.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 02:47 AM

How stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Dazbo
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 03:51 AM

Surely the biggest mistake was getting rid of the monarchy and replacing it with self-serving, power-hungry wannabees in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 08:12 AM

What about G Bush Jnr failing to choke himself to death on a pretzel? That was a close call.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: kendall
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 08:15 AM

As usual, he blew that chance too.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 09:42 AM

Leaving the invasion of Iraq off the list is definitely not called for; it ranks among the top four, I would guess.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Midchuck
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 09:52 AM

Surely the biggest mistake was getting rid of the monarchy and replacing it with self-serving, power-hungry wannabees in the first place.

But they got rid of the monarchy in order to get rid of self-serving, power-hungry wannabees. It just didn't work as well as it should have.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 10:02 AM

Can we UK folk come up with an equivalent one for British Prime Ministers? I wonder how many entries Blair would have in there.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 11:13 AM

I think that #10, the Clinton-Monica thing, is not appropriate for the list, because it was a private Clinton mistake, not a presidential one.
As embarrassing and celebrated as it was, it shouldn't take the luster away from Clinton's generally excellent presidency.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: heric
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 11:16 AM

It was a Congressional mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 11:31 AM

I think that #10, the Clinton-Monica thing, is not appropriate for the list, because it was a private Clinton mistake, not a presidential one.
As embarrassing and celebrated as it was, it shouldn't take the luster away from Clinton's generally excellent presidency.

Just like John Prescott (who holds the meaningless sinecure of Deputy Prime Minister in the UK) was caught out doing naughty things to one of his female assistants in his office. It caused him slight embarrassment but hasn't taken anything away from his ability to do his job.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 12:22 PM

Surekly they didn't get rid of the monarchy? They just imported it, and set up a modified form of selectionn by niow equally hereditary.

Regardless of whether it's seen as provate rather than political, getting caught messinmg around with Monica was monumentally silly, and has probabaly resulted in enormous numbers of deaths since, by handing the presidency to Bush. That has to count as a "mistake".

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 12:35 PM

Also, I disagree with the current trend in the UK, and possibly the US as well, that doing something wrong is fine as long as it "doesn't affect your job".

That was Blair's argument for keeping Prescott in his role - apparently his affair with his assistant was a "private" matter.

The fact that he had been caught (almost literally) with his pants round his ankles, and it was known to everyone in the country, seems to have escaped Blair. It's not longer a private matter when that happens.

And once in the public domain, we all know what sort of person Prescott is, and know he can't be trusted. So many of us find it impossible to hold him in any kind of high regard, no matter what his apologists may say as they point to his redeeming qualities (which no doubt he must have).

The government has to be seen to set a good example, and it's a mistake to think people don't care. A lot of them do.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: JeremyC
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 12:47 PM

I don't know, Ben Franklin was a creepy, dirty old man who liked to chase teenage girls, but I don't think that takes away from his contribution to society. Kennedy supposedly had lots of affairs, but he's practically deified in some circles. Martin Luther King was a plagiarist and also apparently had some extramarital affairs, but this didn't make him unsuccessful or ineffective. People are more complicated than that. It doesn't follow that, because, say, I'm into bondage, fursuits, infantilism, and polyamory (FOR THE SAKE OF DISCUSSION, NOT AS POINT OF FACT), I'm going to be less of a computer programmer.

I think the public does not have the right to know or care where a politician is putting his dick, unless he's putting it in the member of the public in question or his/her close female relative, or the member of the public in question is the politician's wife, into whom the politician is NOT putting his dick. In Clinton terms, the only people his blowjob should have mattered to are him, Monica Lewinsky and her family, and Hillary Clinton. It's just not anyone else's business.

But we are a nation of busybodies (and so are you guys in the UK, from what I can tell).

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:16 PM

In some cultures they found the best way of removing communication barriers or overcome someone being daunted in the presence of a great person, is to take a communal bath with them.
Hot tubs will do fine.

In my opinion Bush Jr. has made no mistakes. THe mistakes were made by the people who propped him up. Those pwople are now afraid they may have cooked their own golden goose of the USA.
I would not surprised in the least that behind the scenes the power to wage nuclear war has been stripped for Jr. completely.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:32 PM

Sinc the Oval Office was Clinton's workplace, and Lewinsky's workplace as well, that meant what happened there wasn't wholly private. That'd probably be the rule for the rest of us in our workplaces.

Whatever, it was clearly a major blunder with very serious consequences affecting many people.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 02:45 PM

It would be really funny to do a similar list of 10 Worst Mistakes by Canadian Prime Ministers, because...

#1 - It would be so infernally boring!

and...

#2 - No one except Canadians would even understand what the hell most of it was about. (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 03:03 PM

If you believe in some concept of "fairness", it seems to me that Clinton was treated very unfairly.

When was the last time that a sexual escapade between consenting adults cost the livelihood of, for example:

A plumber
An airline pilot
A bank manager
A sales rep

Never since the second world war, and not very frequently before it.

So why single out poor old Bill, after all t'aint a crime is it? Not like illegal phone taps, burglary, lying to congress and the American people.

Let's gat real, puhlease.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 03:38 PM

That's a rhetorical question, and I rather doubt if the answer is the one Don implies.

I'd suspect that, for example, any bank manager caught out like Clinton on bank premises would find his career propects were very seriously damaged. Sales reps? Airline pilots? Teachers? Social Workers? I think they'd be very optimistic to assume they could get away unscathed. Plumbers - well, generally they do their work on the premsies of clients, so it might be different.

Surely illegality ain't the issue. Stupidity is.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: bubblyrat
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 03:52 PM

Monica Lewinsky sucks .

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:14 PM

I'm not sure I would call the Iran-Contra affair a mistake. Though I think the president should have been impeached for it, whoever was running Ronald Reagan seems to have gotten exactly what they wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: JeremyC
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:31 PM

I wouldn't say Clinton was "caught out" on premises. Linda Tripp deliberately betrayed her "friendship" with Monica Lewinsky so that she could help smear him publicly. While this isn't an inconceivable end to an office romance (turns out the bank manager's mistress confided in a woman who had it in for the manager), it's not all that likely, and not due to any lack of caution on the "manager's" part.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Cruiser
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:38 PM

Law of Unintended Consequences

Clinton's mistake was a grave error. Some of us (not all of course) who were raised in the 1950s have a little different set of values and standards; right or wrong.

Clinton's actions caused many votes to be lost for Mr. Gore's chances. Religious people like my relatives (I am an atheist) voted to "get the sin out of the White House". My guess is some religious Democrats also voted Republican out of religious conviction. Therefore, Mr. Bush received votes he would not have otherwise gotten.

The act is not what mattered; where it happened did. If you cannot understand why, then I can only say that to many of us character matters. I never committed adultery and I would prefer others do not either. However, had Clinton done his act outside of the Oval Office or White House, that is a symbol of dignity and what is good about America, then I would not have been as offended, but would have still disapproved. He crossed a threshold of standards others and I could never forgive him for.

I think Mr. Gore would have been president had Clinton not made his top 10 mistake. The world would now be a much better place, in retrospect. I would have voted for Gore had Clinton not disgraced the Office of the Presidency. Instead, I gave my support to Bush, unfortunately, because of the narrow-mindedness of vast right-wing conspiracy Democrats who supported Clinton no matter what, but who should have ostracized him. Now his past actions will most likely ruin Ms. Clinton's bid at a fair chance for becoming president (no, I emphatically would not want her in that office). The fact is his actions continue to harm his own family, as well as this country.

Therefore, Clinton's Top Ten Mistake did serious harm to the country I served both as a public servant and as a soldier. I will do everything ethical to keep the Clintons out of the White House.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: JeremyC
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:49 PM

Cruiser -

Okay, I understand (although I disagree with) your position on Bill Clinton. You believe he debased the White House and the Presidency as a symbol of something larger than the individual currently in the position.

But what I don't get is how Gore and Ms. Clinton figure into this. Mr. Clinton did something bad that you believe he should have been ostracized for. But what did Gore and Ms. Clinton have to do with this? Are you saying they are guilty by association? I don't understand your reasoning here. Can you please explain?

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 05:01 PM

I didn't know Franklin used to chase young girls. I thought he confined his activities to tying keys to the strings of kites in thunderstorms.

Do you think he actually did that, he could have been electrocuted. That would have been a mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Cruiser
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 05:22 PM

JeremyC,

Had both Ms. Clinton and Mr. Gore exhibited the character to denounce Mr. Clinton emphatically for his actions then they would have demonstrated the character I think a president needs to lead by example. The President of the United States must be above reproach, someone special for citizens to admire and emulate, in my judgment.

You said it succinctly: "a symbol of something larger than the individual currently in the position." People of character and integrity put the public good above personal gain and pain. Had either person demonstrated that type of character at that difficult time and put the welfare of the country first, then either would have gained my confidence and most likely my vote. Instead, Gore shied away from the issue while Ms. Clinton became a vast right-wing conspiracy theorist. Therefore, neither deserves to hold high office based on my view of what a president should be to all people at all times.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 05:29 PM

Cruiser, Clinton lived in the White House (obviously). If he had gone upstairs would you still object? If they had gotten a motel room would that have been less of a problem? If they had gone somewhere else could you have voted for Gore even if he didn't condemn the act? Serious questions, this is not intended as a slam against your position.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 07:12 PM

Cruiser, I suspect that there has been a great deal of 'debasement' of the presidential office. Adultery may not figure in most of it, although there has been a lot of that, but there are worse things than adultery.

Kind of like comparing television's (implied) sex and nudity with its depiction of bloody violence. Americans have somehow decided that sex equals bad; violence equals entertainment.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 07:56 PM

I don't know what Clinton and Monica are doing in the top 10, although the cynic in me suggest making this list relevant to audiences under 40. I though it was term limits that cost him his job though.




Just like John Prescott (who holds the meaningless sinecure of Deputy Prime Minister in the UK) was caught out doing naughty things to one of his female assistants in his office. It caused him slight embarrassment but hasn't taken anything away from his ability to do his job.

One question. What ability?

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Midchuck
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 08:09 PM

3,000 young Americans didn't die when Bill got a blow job in the White House.

What's been suggested above is that maybe they did. If enough people were offended by his behavior to decide that Democrats in general were an immoral lot, that it pushed the election to Bush (or into a mess that was eventually resolved in Bush's favor, for whatever reason), then you could argue that his behaviour was an indirect cause of the Iraq war (the present one, I mean). Farfetched, but you could argue it.

I don't know, I voted Libertarian myself.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 09:02 PM

Considering that George W. Bush is little more than a hand-puppet, I wouldn't say that he has really made mistakes.

I would say that he is a mistake.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 10:33 PM

On reflection I would think the dropping of atomic weapons on Japan should have made that list.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 11:36 PM

Good point Midchuck. In England we had a series of leaders of the opposition who rendered themselves quite unelectable - decent blokes but not careful wenough of how the public perceived them. If you go into politics - your job is to get your party elected.

Everything else is just empty posturing.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:53 AM

Don T - - 'When was the last time that a sexual escapade between consenting adults cost the livelihood of, for example:

A plumber
An airline pilot
A bank manager
A sales rep

Never since the second world war, and not very frequently before it.'

I worked in the chemical engineering industry and about 3 yrs ago a colleague (plumber) was sacked for performing a sex act with a cleaner in a store cupboard. ( She was merely moved to a different part of the site - double standards eh?)

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 11:00 AM

Midchuck commented:

What's been suggested above is that maybe they did. If enough people were offended by his behavior to decide that Democrats in general were an immoral lot, that it pushed the election to Bush (or into a mess that was eventually resolved in Bush's favor, for whatever reason), then you could argue that his behaviour was an indirect cause of the Iraq war (the present one, I mean). Farfetched, but you could argue it.

There's a concept in legal proof called "proximate cause". Your scenario fails that test.

If Joe Blow is in an accident while driving legal speeds, but it's shown that he was where he was only because he had been speeding for forty minutes an hour before, that's evidence of negligence at the time of the speeding, but that's not proximate cause of the accident.

The "if you hadn't done X, the Y situation couldn't have come up, so you're to blame for Z" argument won't fly.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 11:46 AM

So...she wasn't allowed to hang out in the cupboard anymore, Blackhawk? ;-)

I agree about the A-bomb drops on Japan, Amos...although, I wouldn't call them a mistake, I'd call them a war crime. A very big war crime. Ditto for the bombing of Dresden in '45.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 12:55 PM

So if Bush gets caught with his pants down in the Oval Office with some   young lady with strange tastes in men, that's entirely his business, and it'd be quite wrong to go after him for it?

I somehow doubt if it'd work out like that. And I somehow doubt if too many of the Clinton apologists would actually stick to that principle in such circumstances. On the other hand I can imagine a fair number on the other side who'd suddenly decide that personal failings shouldn't be dragged into the political arena.

My, wouldn't it be fun though...

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 01:03 PM

I don't think it would affect Bush's ability to do his job as president one way or the other (there are other more important factors than things like that). But it might be a matter of intense interest to his religious constituency.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 01:09 PM

Was I the only one bothered by Clinton's bald-faced lying to the American people: "I did not have sex with that woman"?

Nothing against the guy's politics, but the only honourable thing for him to have done after disgracing his office (literally) and being caught in a blatant lie about it would have been to resign. He was without honour, I'm afraid, whatever other virtues he may have had.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: GUEST,james
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 01:28 PM

GUEST,Boab
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:22 AM
"How about the night Mrs. G. Bush senior got pregnant?"

Right you are Boab. George Sr. should definitely be on the list for that.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 01:43 PM

Resigning would have been the politically astute thing to do. It would probably have meant Gore in the White House for ten years, and very likely Hilary Clinton lined up for the next election in a much stronger position than she is now. And Bill Clinton set up as a folk hero - "the politician who did the Decent Thing."

Talk about whether there was anything illegal in what Clinton got up to is completely irrelevant. To quote Talletrand "It's worse than a crime - it's a mistake."

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 01:43 PM

GUEST,meself, the point is moot in this case because the question should never have been asked in the first place.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: GUEST,Wabbits
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 01:58 PM

A mistake that spans all administrations since
the early 1970's; failing to adopt and adhere
to an energy policy that by now could have liberated
the U.S. (as well as much of the West) from dependence
on the middle east, not to mention the impact on global
warming.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 02:22 PM

Sounds a little like "two wrongs make a right" to me, Don ...

McGrath: Good points.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Bernard
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 02:27 PM

Monica Lewinsky...

Anagram...

A lick wins money...

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 03:07 PM

No, I'm saying that Clinton's messing around was nobody's business but his, Monica's and Hillary's. Linda Tripp, and the fact that Monica was incapable of keeping her mouth shut, turned it into a media circus that Clinton's enemies took advantatge of. Clinton shouldn't have lied about it, but the whole thing was a symphony of stupidity, malice, and prurience.

I think the fact that some folks love to keep bringing it up as if it had some political importance says more about them than it does about Clinton.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Les from Hull
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:11 PM

Many historians see the dropping of A-bombs as a desire to see that they really worked coupled with a message to Soviet Russia. Japan had already approached Russia (neutral at the time) with a view to ending the war. Russia didn't pass this on as they had designs on Manchuria.

You can't just leave the bombing of Dresden as a war crime, LH. All the area fire-bombing of German and Japanese cites came into the same category. It was mainly meteorological circumstances that caused so many casualties in Dresden, but targets were often selected because they would 'burn well', including the B29 raids on Japan.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:33 PM

Much as I dislike the idea of dropping A-bombs (or any bombs for that matter) on people, I have long suspected that once they existed they were going to be used. If not in Japan maybe in Korea or who knows where. Can't get the proper disgust worked up regarding how destructive they are by only using them in the desert or on a recently de-populated island.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:29 PM

"Was I the only one bothered by Clinton's bald-faced lying ...?"

No, a lot of us...even me....were 'bothered', but he was STILL hoping that the largely irrelevant issue could be made to go away! At that time, he didn't know about Monica's 'friend', Linda Tripp and her mouth (more dangerous than Monica's!).

   In the past, presidential indiscretions were simply not public fodder if they didn't DIRECTLY affect his office. He was put in a situation where smarmy gossip, made public, pressured him to take a chance on lying...then the LYING was made an impeachable issue! It was nothing more than an easy way to embarrass and disparage one party. IT SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN MADE AN ISSUE, except to his wife.

It led to this

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:38 PM

Agreed, Les. All those area bombings of civilian centres that you refer to were war crimes...crimes which were shared in as well by the Axis in their terror bombings of various cities in both Europe and Asia. All the major participants in WWII committed great war crimes. Only some of them (the losers) were put on trial for it.

That's the way the game works. It's self-serving and two-faced, but very predictable, and so it always has been in time of war.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Cruiser
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 08:33 PM

KB in Iowa et al.

You posit fair questions. I cannot answer them because of their hypothetical nature. An honorable man (or woman) in a position of high authority and public trust just would not do what Clinton did. It is a matter of one's standards and conscience and obviously most here do not agree with me.

If you have ever been in a position of public authority and trust, as I have, there are some things you just do not do, no matter how strong the passion. If you fail that standard, you must relinquish a position requiring authority, trust, and honor.

I am certainly not speaking from anywhere near perfection myself, quite the contrary. I am just a decent man who has made many mistakes and caused some emotional hurt myself, but I am adamantly committed to certain standards, ethics, morals, trust, values, and most of all, self-respect. If I had shamed my profession I would resign because of oaths I took (fortunately I have recently retired early so I can be a rascal now, right!) Without getting too personal, I missed some passionate opportunities, as I am sure many have, because of certain standards I set for myself. How many married or committed couples reading this have been tempted to stray or do something stupid, but their consciences stopped them from doing that and prevented irreparable harm to their loved ones?

The terrible example Clinton set with his immoral behavior and his follow-up lies damaged the Presidency in a serious moralistic way. How many mothers or fathers would want their daughters or sons to be remembered for their lies and their base sexual actions, such as performed by Clinton and L., instead of what they did for the good of society and humankind?

I doubt I have explained anything to the satisfaction of anyone. My conscience is just different from others here, no better or worse, just different.

For those of us who have strayed or done something stupid (me), don't do it!

'Lover's Return' A.P. Carter

And so you have come back to me                              
And say the old loves growing yet                                    
You've tried through all these weary years                        
You've tried too vainly to forget
                        
Oh no I cannot take your hand                           
God never gives us back our youth                           
The loving heart you slighted then   
Was yours my friend in perfect truth

Come close and let me see your face                              
Your raven hair is tinged with snow                           
Oh yes it is the same dear face                     
I loved so many years ago
                     
Oh no I cannot take your hand                           
God never gives us back our youth                              
The loving heart you slighted then                              
Was yours my friend in perfect truth
                     
Farewell I think I love yet                                 
As friend to friend God bless you dear                                 
And guide you through these weary years                              
To where the skies are always clear
                        
Oh no I cannot take your hand                           
God never gives us back our youth                              
The loving heart you slighted then                              
Was yours my friend in perfect truth
                        
Oh no I cannot take your hand                           
God never gives us back our youth                              
The loving heart you slighted then                              
Was yours my friend in perfect truth

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 09:06 PM

well, Cruiser....you have made your position clear, but I must note that using words like "shamed" "immoral" "base" and "terrible" is quite subjective. "Stupid" is a word that comes to MY mind..."careless" is even better.

   I do accept that by BEING stupid & careless, Clinton allowed all that infamy to distort his image and cause public attention to be focused on matters that should NEVER be part of the political process.
He should have been sternly censured, then the subject should have been dropped. I just do not think that tawdry behavior is grounds for demanding resignation. I did not vote for him to be a paradigm of virtue in personal matters, though that's valuble.....I asked him to be an astute judge of issues for the country, and to make complex & relevant decisions....and THAT, I feel, he did fairly well.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 09:51 PM

I respect your position Cruiser but don't agree with all of your conclusions. I don't think Clinton should have lied under oath, but he should never have been asked the question in the first place. The special prosecutor was assigned to look into Whitewater. Whether or not Bill was getting any on the side wasn't relevent.

I agree with Bill D that whether or not he got a BJ from someone other than his wife is none of my business and didn't affect his ability to govern. The firestorm did but not the act itself.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 11:26 AM

I lost my cookie! Guest 9:51 was me.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Cruiser
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 01:23 PM

KB In Iowa wrote:

"…didn't affect his ability to govern. The firestorm did but not the act itself"

Precisely! You nailed my point. When a person in such a high position behaves irresponsibly and recklessly the ensuing "firestorm" created by those actions is what often does the harm, not the act itself. He was fully responsible for his actions and should have known an insecure, awestruck young woman would tell her girlfriends about what happened. Therefore, a thinking responsible decent man would have thought-out the consequences of his actions before he acted out his passion or crass fantasies. He lost the respect of many Americans and did lose the ability to govern because of his actions. He further ruined Mr. Gore's chances of becoming president.

The results of his actions were grave (our current situation) even though the act may have been deemed by most to be trivial.

Mr. Bill D:

I agree with the subjectiveness of the terms you mentioned. However, you know human-based values, especially emotive ones, are inherently subjective. Scientists and philosophers should most likely not futilely debate such subjectivity, but instead accept it at face value.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 02:00 PM

Some of our better presidents have been "womanizers." I was about to say "notorious womanizers," but changed my mind for the following reason:   in times past, what people in the public limelight did in their own private lives was their own business and the main thing the public at large was interested in was how well they did their jobs. But in this modern age, in which character assassination is considered a legitimate (!??) political tool, along with people seeming to be far more obsessed with other people's sexual peccadilloes and discussing them loudly in public than at any time in history, tearing open a politician's fly and checking his winkie's curriculum vita has become standard operating procedure these days.

What Clinton did with said winkie is not a political issue, nor should it be. His mistake was in allowing himself to be vulnerable to such scurrilous tactics. Lord knows, he and Hillary had already been accused of all kinds of nastiness that they were not involved in, so he should have been aware that there were legions of political assassins out there who, if they couldn't find anything real, would make it up, and that even the legendary purity of Caesar's wife might not suffice. He handed them the dagger.

Did he lie? That's a moot point. There are a lot of people who don't consider oral sex to be "sex," reserving that single word (without modifying adjective) to mean "sexual intercourse." In which case, no, he did not "have sex with that woman."

But no matter how you slice it, turning it into a public whole issue rather than leaving it alone as a private affair that wasn't anyone else's business, was a matter of attempted political assassination.

And we, the American public, lapped it up in our own salacious way. And some folks are still hung up on it.

"Informed electorate" my ass!!

Don Firth

P. S. Barack Obama just officially announced this morning that he is running for the presidency. Already the slime-sifters and septic-suckers are out trying to dig up anything they can find out about his background.

P. S. S. BINGO! THIS JUST IN (I had just typed the above P. S. and a split second before I was about to click on "Submit Message," I heard this on the radio):   An unnamed Republican has just announced that he has learned that Barack Obama occasionally smokes—cigarettes—Marlboros, in fact—and demands to know, "What else does he do that we don't know about!??"

I'm not making that up!!

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 02:22 PM

'There are a lot of people who don't consider oral sex to be "sex," reserving that single word (without modifying adjective) to mean "sexual intercourse."'

I find this hard to believe - however, I am willing to stand corrected; maybe there's a regional/cultural difference here. A bit of thread drift, I suppose, but - if we can put aside partisan politics for a moment - okay, I suppose that's a pretty hopeless wish - but anyway, what is other people's sense of this? I'm really kind of curious.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 02:50 PM

A recent survey noted that a large number of high school students (including some of the more religious types who have taken an oath of "abstinence until marriage") do not consider oral sex or mutual masturbation to be "sex."

These things, at least when I was in high school, were referred to as "heavy petting." "Sex" meant "going all the way." With, of course, the concurrent danger of pregnancy.

You're mileage may vary, but that's the way a lot of people still view it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: pdq
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 03:05 PM

This thread could have been about serious issues. The fact that it has decended into the gutter is proof enough that Bill Clinton has had a deleterious affect on our society.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: heric
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 03:11 PM

That's true pdq. He was wrong in deed and word but the people who chose to bring this into national public discourse are the ones who knew or should have known that they were degrading and diminishing our society.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Cruiser
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 05:28 PM

To get back on subject:

Does anyone else think Mr. Clinton's mistake helped turn the electorate against the Democrats and was an important reason Mr. Bush won the election? I think that is why it made the (questionable) Top Ten list.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 05:51 PM

I don't think Bush really did win the election(s), Cruiser. But that's another whole debate... ;-)

It is unquestionably true that the incredible legal and media brouhaha around Mr. Clinton's sexual indiscretions in the Oval Office DID damage Al Gore's shot at being president. Whose fault is it? Well, it's the fault of a great many people. Bill Clinton is just one of them. The people who hounded him over it in order to do partisan damage to the Democrats and the Clintons are others. They didn't do it to protect America's moral fiber. They did it because they saw an opportunity to harm their political foes. Many of them, I'm sure, are guilty of worse things themselves...but they haven't been exposed for it (yet), and that's all that really counts in politics.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Cruiser
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 06:28 PM

Little Hawk:

I agree. Many Republicans share culpability in the harm they have done and did not scorn Clinton "to protect America's moral fiber", as you stated.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 06:30 PM

Cool. ;-) I always like a man who can look at both sides of the picture.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: heric
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 08:01 PM

Nobody was off subject, Mr. Cruiser. But yes, we can get back to you.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 08:53 PM

I wonder if Herbert Hoover's failure to do anything after the stock market crash should have made the list.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Cruiser
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 09:04 PM

#1 of the 10 listed:

Lyndon Johnson: Escalation of the Vietnam War

Of course, Mr. Bush's Big Mistake will be recorded by history as the worst blunder so far.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 09:10 PM

Possibly.

The War of 1812 was a doozy. It has to rank as one of the most useless, pointless wars in all history, and it yielded nothing useful for anyone....except Andrew Jackson. He made big political capital out of winning the Battle of New Orleans.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: mg
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 09:30 PM

I think any dynasty of any sort, Kennedy, Adams, Clinton, Bush, is a very very serious problem and should be soundly discouraged. The parties should know better than to nominate a brother, wife, son, daughter etc. of a former president. mg

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Amos
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 09:37 PM

At least one good song therefrom, also.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 10:33 PM

Yep. The War of 1812-14 ended in 1815 with the Battle of Chalmette Plantation on 8 January. Ya gotta love history.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Bert
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 11:51 PM

Of course the British Government made the worst mistake in the war of 1812 by sending Wellington's Brother in Law, Packenham, instead of Wellington.

Wellington would not have lost the Battle of New Orleans, if fact he most likely would not even have fought it; and America could have been returned to Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Peace
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 12:03 AM

And with my luck, George Bush would be Prime Minister of Canada. Death, where is thy sting?

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Big Phil
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 06:56 AM

Vietnam..       Iraq..            nuff said.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 11:46 AM

That's an interesting theory, Bert. I like it. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 01:48 PM

Wasn't Wellington rather busy with other matters at the time?

I don't think the war with the US was exactly top priority. And as for "America could have been returned to Britain", I'd imagine that would have been seen as a pretty unfortunate outcome in Whitehall.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 02:49 PM

Wellington was busy up to his eyeballs...dealing with Napoleon. Napoleon was a far bigger problem for Great Britain than the USA was at that point in history.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:10 PM

To those who say above words to the effect that "what a politician does in his private life is his own affair and doesn't affect anyone else or his ability to do the job" (e.g. Clinton or Prescott), I agree - but only until he gets caught.

Then it does matter, because the public's trust in the person has been destroyed. They know that if a guy will lie to his wife, then he will lie to anyone, including his boss, his colleagues and the public themselves. Blair has ignored this and I believe keeping Prescott in his high-profile (if seemingly pointless) role will cost Blair and the Labour party more dearly than he seems to think, if the damage hasn't been done already.

The intelligent thing to do would have been to sack Prescott immediately, regardless of Blair's own personal views on the matter. This would have signalled to the public that Blair was acting decisively, and that he was aware of the 'trust' issue. Politicians have to be seen to do the right thing, or if they don't, to pay the price.

Instead, by taking the line "what Prescott does to a woman he's not married to, across the desk in his office, with his pants round his ankles, is his own private business", Blair's own credibility with the public has been more seriously affected than he seems to believe.

If it matters to the public, it should matter to him.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:45 PM

In a general way, I agree with Scrump's point .... However, I've never fully bought the easy formula whereby "They know that if a guy will lie to his wife, then he will lie to anyone, including his boss, his colleagues and the public themselves." My sense of human psychology leads me to a contrary conclusion: it seems to me that the people that are closest to a given person, and whom that person cares most about, are the very people who he is likely to treat the most shabbily. Paradoxical? Yes ...

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: JeremyC
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:50 PM

Cruiser, thanks for answering. I can respect your position, although I don't necessarily agree 100%, and I appreciate your clarification on how Gore and Mrs. Clinton made a negative impression through the incident.

I think the real damage to the presidency was done by Nixon, and the office hasn't recovered since (although Regan seemed to be able to do anything he wanted, for some reason). I have to wonder if maybe Obama has the right idea--he said something about cynical attitudes on the part of most americans, along with their feeling of disconnection with the people in charge, have led to a lot of shenanigans in the White House. Didn't that cynicism get started somewhere between LBJ and Nixon? I wasn't born yet, so I don't know first hand, but if any of you old guys want to share...

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:55 PM

I think that the first real damage was done to the Presidency when it became apparent to people that only 'friends of the rich (or the rich themselves)' stood any chance of being elected. After that, it became an office from which to aggrandize further riches for oneself and one's 'close' friends.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: JeremyC
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:04 PM

Peace - True! As a friend of mine wrote in a song: "Elections are expensive, candidates need cash--but the democratic process is free."

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:44 PM

It wasn't quit so bad when the only "rich" involved were American nationals. Now that everything has gone global, including "Puppet Contenders for the Presidency," it's turned into an international auction.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 06:39 AM

GUEST,meself - I understand your point, but would you say you trust Clinton or Prescott? Maybe you would, but (rightly or wrongly) most people wouldn't. That is reason enough for them to be sacked from their jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: GUEST,fatbastard
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:11 AM

I just tool a large dump.

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: GUEST,fatbastard
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:13 AM

I'm sorry, took*

Subject: RE: BS: 10 Worst Mistakes by US Presidents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 02:59 PM

Is it time for the country to take a large dump and get rid of George W.? And if it did, who would flush the toilet?