BS: More British soldiers walk free

Subject: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: The Length
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:56 PM

A court today found three British soldiers not guilty of war crimes in Iraq. Seems there will never be a British soldier found guilty of any crime serving over there.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: mick p r.m s.c
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:04 PM

Good at least our lads are getting support from the courts and the majority of the british people. British gov take notice.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: MARINER
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:12 PM

Of course they walked free . Don't you know that the wily Iraqui stabbed and beat himself 93 times and then died just so he could put "our boys" in a bad light.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:19 PM

"support from the courts and the majority of the british people" should be completely irrelevant in any criminal case.

If the evidence proved they were guilty they should have been found guilty, if it didn't they should have been found Not Guilty.

I hope that the verdict was entirely based on that principle and not a on any notions of "support".

This episode involved the killing in very unpleasant circumstances of an innocent young man, and that should not be forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: GUEST,Your justice is so good?
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:36 PM

So it's 'bash the Brits again time' is it? Is your country so good at it? How many of yours have walked free?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:45 PM

"How many of yours have walked free?"

What possible relevance does that have to this particular case?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: folk1e
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:06 PM

a level playing field perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: folk1e
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:16 PM

I did note that the senior officer, found not guilty today, was previously decorated during the conflict ....... a scapegoat perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:23 AM

Funny that there's mention of Breaker Morant on another thread (but above the line)!

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:35 AM

I am glad whenever our soldiers are getting the support they deserve. They were found not guilty based on the evidence produced and it has cost £20million.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: skipy
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:20 AM

A court today found three British soldiers not guilty.
Whats your problem? Just read the staement that you wrote!
Here it is again for you:-
A court today found three British soldiers not guilty.
So that is the end of it, that's how our system works, they where NOT GUILTY.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:52 AM

Skipy

British courts ALWAYS find their own soldiers NOT GUILTY

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Big Phil
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:56 AM

My advice to the do gooders, walk a mile in the soldiers shoes, then moan about them being found NOT GUILTY..........

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:01 AM

Guest (the anonymous one), that is not true. We used to shoot our own soldiers for not an awful lot. Thank god we've moved on from those days.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:06 AM

GUEST - bollocks!

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: MARINER
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:17 AM

So Big Phil , Are you saying that because they served in Iraq and the Iraqis attack them that it's all right to take innocent civilians off the street and beat and stab them until they die ? . Or what is it you are trying to say ?.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: skipy
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:29 AM

Mariner, a court has decided that that did not happen, do you know better? where you there, did you witness things that the court don't know about?
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:46 AM

These soldiers have been found NOT GUILTY in a very expensive trial. We have to assume that they are innocent. How would any of us feel if we went through a trial and were found not guilty and then other people decided to ignore that outcome?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: GUEST,Fair Play
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:51 AM

Maybe we could find them all guilty, whether they are or not. Then we could hold a meeting with the Iraqis on a Friday, [that would be good] Then we could agree to let them all out of jail again no matter what they'd done, just to keep everybody happy like!
What a load of crap these anti Brits spout, it is better to have men declared not guilty walking the streets, than to have guilty men do so with the connivance of the British state.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: MARINER
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:52 AM

skipy, Did this man not die of horrendous wounds in British custody ? Do you think he might have inflicted them on himself? Of course he didn't, but someone did and that someone must have been a member of the British Army (or perhaps they subcontract out their torturing to "contractors")

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 06:02 AM

,,,and, before we rush to judgement, remember that the incident is only part-heard.
Cpl Donald Payne has admitted inhumane treatment, although he has been cleared of manslaughter and perverting the course of justice. He will be sentenced later for his admitted war crime.
WO Mark Davies still faces trial after being charged with negligently performing a duty, and Maj Michael Peebles also faces trial on a similar charge.
Courts martial are public and open, and are subject to the same forensic rigour as criminal trials in civilian life. The system is outline here
Perhaps, however, the same cannot be said of the process which leads to soldiers being put in the dock in the first place. Like the CPS in civvy street, the APA and the Army Legal Service are maybe not the finest legal minds in the business.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: skipy
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 06:39 AM

Mariner, I pass no jugement on Cpl Payne, that is for a court to decide & I will be happy to stand by their decision.
The point is the three that where found not guilty where found not guilty, but believe me (& I spent 25 years in the military) they are stuffed now.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Mr Fox
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:47 AM

They were hardly declared not guilty. The case was thrown out through lack of evidence. The whole thing reeks of cover up.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:07 AM

Cock-up generally trumps cover-up, Mr Fox. I would be hugely surprised if there was a conspiracy to 'get them off'. I wouldn't be so surprised if there wasn't a little tacit leaning on the APA earlier in the case to ensure that a high profile scalp was in the dock.
I don't think anyone denies that some soldiers behaved criminally and were complicit in the abuse and death of a civilian. What matters is that the right ones are punished and that we have a dispassionate legal system and not a series of show trials.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:19 AM

The thing about the British justice system is that people are presumed innocent until proven guilty and I agree with Captain Ginger - it is very important that the right people are punished.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: kendall
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:21 AM

War tends to turn some ordinary men into animals just as being in a pack turns Fido into a killer.

How about the Warrant Officer who was found guilty of stuffing an Iraqi into a sleeping bag head first, then sitting on his chest until he suffocated? He got 6 months R.I.P. as I recall. (Reduction in pay)

And some of us still wonder why they hate us.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: skipy
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:22 AM

In the military it is usually a case of "march the guilty bastard in"
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Grab
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:07 AM

Mariner, how do *you* know who did it? How do *you* know these three did it?

The three who were found not guilty were NEVER charged with war crimes. There was never question that they did NOT do it. The question for these three was whether they should have checked better what was going on and so stopped it happening. For that reason, they were charged with failing to carry out their duties.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: MARINER
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:49 AM

You misunderstand me Grab .I do not know who did it, but I do know that an innocent man, in good health ended up in British Army custody dead and with 93 wounds of different kinds on his body. As it is very unlikely he inflicted these injuries on himself some of his gaolers must have. Who were his captors ? If they can't find the individuals responsible , charge the whole bloody lot of 'em It's that simple .

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:55 AM

Now that would not be fair!

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:20 AM

If you're one of these countries who never sees anything to be done. Let's face it, theres plenty of them in the European Union - sometimes it eerilly like spending an evening with someone who never buys a drink. Never seems to be at the bar at the right moment.

Well then you can and you will see nothing to the English Army, but a load of murderers and thugs. ...

They sorted out Hitler - sometimes facing armies larger than the number of troops holding down the rest of occupied Europe. they faced down Commie thugs like Kruschev, even when pacifist gits like me were saying 'give peace a chance' when we were ranged against the gang of genocidal scum that ran the gulags.

And when people have been found guilty of even misjudgements. Some of them have done time.


And now they're in Iraq. Someone said you and me needed defending from WMD's. Some of us were stupid enough to believe our leaders on that point. I find that hard enough to accept my stupidity about that. But for the soldiers the consequences have been much much worse. Rather like the 'presence in NI' - it should never have happened.


I do seem to recognise that hysterical self righteous finger pointing style from certain other threads. I don't think it does your cause any honour.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: MARINER
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 01:48 PM

Not fair ? There can't have been many on duty in that interogation centre at that particular time . The army should know who was on watch and just who was doing what ,where they were doing it and how they were doing it.So, bring in the whole watch and grill 'em .That should get results, especially if they use the same methods that they use on their own prisoners.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: GUEST,Camel mechanic
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 02:15 PM

Just heard that the Iraqi prisoner beat himself to death, our boys are off the hook.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:47 PM

I don't know how many of you who have posted so far are from countries besides the UK. My impression is that most of you are British.

My question: If the troops in question were American and had "gone free", how many of you would jump in to proclaim their innocence?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:50 PM

If they had gone through the court process and been found not guilty then that is what they would be.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Alec
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:52 PM

Are The Length & Actress Wendy perchance related?
Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:57 PM

Like OJ, eanjay?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: GUEST,Skipy
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 06:05 PM

If they had gone through the court process and been found not guilty then that is what they would be.
Agree!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Tootler
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 06:27 AM

The onus is on the prosecution to prove the charge "beyond reasonable doubt" If there is insufficient evidence to prove the charge, there must be reasonable doubt.

The "beyond reasonable doubt" test is meant as a protection for the innocent.

No system of justice is perfect and in a criminal trial, there are two undesirable potential outcomes;

1. A guilty person is found not guilty
   
2. An innocent person is found guilty.
   

Of the two, the second is clearly very much undesirable which is why there must be severe test before finding a person guilty even at the risk of sometimes letting a guilty person go free. It is also the reason why we have a system of appeals against conviction.

I think that it is as well to bear this in mind before making accusations of "stitch up" or "whitewash".

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Grab
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 06:33 AM

Mariner, there's no question that someone did it. One of them has already pleaded guilty, other soldiers have given evidence against them.

For the ones who went free, I'm shocked that they thought stress positions and sleep deprivation were OK. What worries me is that that might have been in widespread use with explicit or implicit sanction within the British army - or at least that it might have been at the time anyway (remember that this was 4 years ago). This trial isn't trying to cover that though, so that's a separate issue.

And we already know it was (and *is*) in use by the US army, but that's a separate issue again.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: skipy
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:03 AM

TOMMY
by Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:05 AM

Ebbie 4.57pm - it rhymes!

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:18 AM

Skipy, I love that Rudyard Kipling poem you have quoted. I don't remember reading it before. It reminded me about the Harvey Andrews' song "Soldier". I've just got my LP Harvey Andrews Writer of Songs out and the write-up on the back about the song Soldier seems to be very appropriate here.
"If you can con an ordinary man into protecting your interests, he gets done when the crisis comes, not you. Many soldiers are not professional killers, they're kids who couldn't get a job, and as unemployment has soared, recruiting for the army has increased by over 60% in three years. The average soldier is unimportant in the final analysis, it's the ones who shelter behind him that count.....and they always seem to survive!"
Of course I do appreciate that it is quite an old LP.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: skipy
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:45 AM

It's always been that way & always will be!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:57 AM

Soldier
(Harvey Andrews)
In a station in the city a British soldier stood
Talking to the people there if the people would
Some just stared in hatred, and others turned in pain
And the lonely British soldier wished he was back home again

Come join the British Army! said the posters in his town
See the world and have your fun come serve before the Crown
The jobs were hard to come by and he could not face the dole
So he took his country's shilling and enlisted on the roll

For there was no fear of fighting, the Empire long was lost
Just ten years in the army getting paid for being bossed
Then leave a man experienced a man who's made the grade
A medal and a pension some mem'ries and a trade

Then came the call for Ireland as the call had come before
Another bloody chapter in an endless civil war
The priests they stood on both sides the priests they stood behind
Another fight in Jesus's name the blind against the blind

The soldier stood between them between the whistling stones
And then the broken bottles that led to broken bones
The petrol bombs that burnt his hands the nails that pierced his skin
And wished that he had stayed at home surrounded by his kin

The station filled with people the soldier soon was bored
But better in the station than where the people warred
The room filled up with mothers with daughters and with sons
Who stared with itchy fingers at the soldier and his gun

A yell of fear a screech of brakes the shattering of glass
The window of the station broke to let the package pass
A scream came from the mothers as they ran towards the door
Dragging their children crying from the bomb upon the floor

The soldier stood and could not move his gun he could not use
He knew the bomb had seconds and not minutes on the fuse
He could not run and pick it up and throw it in the street
There were far too many people there too many running feet

Take cover! yelled the soldier, Take cover for your lives
And the Irishmen threw down their young and stood before their wives
They turned towards the soldier their eyes alive with fear
For God's sake save our children or they'll end their short lives here

The soldier moved towards the bomb his stomach like a stone
Why was this his battle God why was he alone
He lay down on the package and he murmured one farewell
To those at home in England to those he loved so well

He saw the sights of summer felt the wind upon his brow
The young girls in the city parks how precious were they now
The soaring of the swallow the beauty of the swan
The music of the turning world so soon would it be gone

A muffled soft explosion and the room began to quake
The soldier blown across the floor his blood a crimson lake
There was no time to cry or shout there was no time to moan
And they turned their children's faces from the blood and from the bones

The crowd outside soon gathered and the ambulances came
To carry off the body of a pawn lost in the game
And the crowd they clapped and cheered and they sang their rebel song
One soldier less to interfere where he did not belong

And will the children growing up learn at their mothers' knees
The story of the soldier who bought their liberty
Who used his youthful body as a means towards an end
Who gave his life to those who called him murderer not friend

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 08:35 AM

Inspired, if I'm not mistaken, by an actual incident. A wonderful piece of writing.

Kendall put his finger on something too - that war turns men into animals. How many of us on here have actually been to war? Not many, I'll bet, certainly not me. Yet so many seem to know all the answers, take the high moral ground and criticise those who have, and who have faced things we can't even begin to imagine.

A very old friend of mine, a member of the Parachute Regiment who fought in Italy and was taken POW at Arnhem during WWII, and who died not so long ago, used to say that, in war, the enemy don't have a monopoly on acts of evil. He was a kind and gentle man, but he'd been there and knew what men are capable of. Doesn't justify wrongdoing, but puts a perspective on some of the things that happen.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 09:15 AM

In 1971 in Belfast a soldier called Sergeant Willis cleared a room of civilians because of a bomb. As he went to close the door afterwards, the charge exploded, and he was killed. Harvey Andrews, was so struck by the incident that he wrote the song to make the point that soldiers, too, are HUMAN.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: GUEST,Norman Wilson
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 09:20 AM

Your right eanjay, I remember reading about it. Never understood the part of the song in which Mr, Andrews wrote "Her cup size made me emotional".

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Mr Fox
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 12:04 PM

"Cock-up generally trumps cover-up, Mr Fox. I would be hugely surprised if there was a conspiracy to 'get them off'. I wouldn't be so surprised if there wasn't a little tacit leaning on the APA earlier in the case to ensure that a high profile scalp was in the dock.
I don't think anyone denies that some soldiers behaved criminally and were complicit in the abuse and death of a civilian. What matters is that the right ones are punished and that we have a dispassionate legal system and not a series of show trials"

------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have a point, Captain. Somebody should be brought to account for this but I agree with you that it should be the right 'somebody'. OK maybe it wasn't a cover-up, but...........

Oh hell, I don't know. The whole damn thing is a shambles and waste of money and lives in my opinion - all this just to overthrow a tinpot dictator. The Iraqi people probably would have done it themselves eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Big Phil
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 02:52 PM

MARINER, I wish we had never invaded Iraq, I have no time for Bliar and his cohorts, BUT now our brave and fearless lads and lasses are there, I think we should back them to the hilt.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Alec
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 03:02 PM

Page 2 and The Length has not yet returned.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: skipy
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 04:00 PM

I wish we had never invaded Iraq, I have no time for Bliar and his cohorts, BUT now our brave and fearless lads and lasses are there, I think we should back them to the hilt.
AND THEN SOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!sKIPY

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: MARINER
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 05:59 PM

That's the same reasoning the Neo Cons used in the States. "Our brave and fearless lads " I supopose you also think that those of us who don't support them being in a foreign state are also unpatriotic. What makes them brave and fearless ? I can accept that they or some of them are brave but if they are fearless then they're just stupid. I wonder if the Germans thought the same about their "brave and fearless lads and lasses " in the Waffen SS in World War 11?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 10:31 PM

Brave and fearless- OK, it's rhetoric but I can go along with that. What I DON'T go along with - and don't even begin to understand - is a statement I've heard over and over. The latest time was earlier today when the US Congress were debating the virtues of passing a measure that is non-binding but goes on record as saying the signatories don't approve or agree with Bush in his escalation of troops.

It is: "Our troops are fighting to keep America safe". What? In what way? How?

They are on the other side of the world, in a country where our presence is making their situation worse, in a country that had done NOTHING to us, in a country where hundreds of thousands have fled their homeland, in a country that has been thrown into chaos because we took out the one person who was able to keep the country stabliized.

In what way are they keeping America safe?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: The Length
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 06:44 AM

Some excellent points raised here. I myself feel that no British soldier will ever face a charge whilst serving in Iraq as it would ode bad for moral.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: GUEST,Old Sweat
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 08:01 AM

Speaking as an ex-British solidier [ invalided out ] and addressing the Length and MARINER in particular, have YOU been there ? have you served ? do you know what it is like to live constantly under the threat of violence and death 24 hours a day ? if not then shut the fuck up until you know what you are talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 08:18 AM

The Length 6.44am. British soldiers have already faced charges, why do you think they were in court? As for "ode bad for moral" - soldiers not only have the stress of their job, when serving in foreign countries, to deal with but can now look forward to prosecutions when they come home. Our soldiers have suffered some terrible atrocities themselves and their welfare needs to be considered in all of this.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: GUEST,CAMEL MECHANIC
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 10:27 AM

This has gone on long enough our lads don`t murder anyone they never have, thay are all good boys worthy repesentitives of our dear old land, please get off their backs, all British soldiers behaved like true gents where ever they served.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 10:50 AM

You've put your name in capital letters this time!

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: MARINER
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 11:49 AM

Old Sweat as my name might suggest to you , I have never been in the army .Are you saying that if you're under pressure than it's all right to kill civilians? Just like you did in Derry ? Camel Mechanic, I guess they were all good boys too, worthy representatives of your dear old land? If you really believe all you've said there then , you Sir, are a fool .

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 12:11 PM

Ah ha! I suspect that Mariner is a Brit- how is it that s/he doesn't recognize satire?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: MARINER
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 12:19 PM

Ah yes ,sorry about that ,guess i was wound up. My apologies to Camel Mechanic .

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 02:02 PM

MARINER, don't get wound up - it's only a discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: The Length
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 02:45 PM

Could someone get a violin and play a sad tune for GUEST,Old Sweat. Never read such rubbish in my life from a wannabe.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: folk1e
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 05:56 PM

It does bring a point up though,
If we have a conflict where one side does not recognise the others rules should the first side turn a "blind eye" when things get out of hand?
For my two penne'th The guy was killed in Brittish jurisdiction and his family should be compensated. If the cause was due to a "rogue" man they should be disceplined. If the cause was due to a common practice the practice should be stopped and those responsible for promulgating it punnished. Dragging this through the filter of the media is wrong!
Sorry for waffaling on ........ How meany troops lives could have been saved with the money spent on the courts marshal / trial?
Why wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 06:18 PM

That is a good point about the money spent on the trial - £20million pounds so far - but there wasn't enough money to properly equip the troops in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: The Length
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 07:01 PM

I still think no matter what the cost the government can never prosecute any of the guys who served out there. It's a moral thing and the guys would think twice about pulling trigger, do something for Queen and country and end up in the Scrubs, not likely mate.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: bubblyrat
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 08:01 PM

The guy who ended up dead----Has anyone asked what HE did ?? Does anyone CARE what he did ?? That he might have been caught red-handed planting a roadside bomb designed to kill and maim young men with no warning, none of the rules of warfare,no decency or humanity,or compassion,or sense of morality,or of good and evil ?? So what are our troops ,having scraped up the remains of one of their colleagues and put them in a bin-liner,supposed to do when the suspect they have arrested is uncooperative ?? Make him a cup of tea,and send for a Human Rights advisor ?? Actually,some of our boys might even do that,which is why they stand out head -and-shoulders against the cowardly scum that they are 'fighting', but the British Army has NEVER been able to guarantee the British Public that none of its soldiers will ever react violently under the stresses of continued attack by a faceless,civilian clothes wearing army of fanatical terrorists. I think I would "Lose It" under those conditions, and I bet a lot of YOU would,as well. You make me sick.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 08:09 PM

Good point Bubblyrat.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 08:12 PM

No bubblegob, that wasn't the purpose of the court case. See the American opinions have arrived. You forgot "God bless America"

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 08:21 PM

Guest (the anonymous one), you seem to have lost the plot.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 11:41 PM

Unfortunately the world is full of individuals who, although able to castigate and criticise those who might be doing an unpalatable job, are themselves totally unable to do that same job.
Most of those individuals become politicians!
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 04:26 AM

I think what ' old swaet ' is trying to tell you MARINER is that unless you have been in a situation like ANY of our soldiers in Iraq then you don't know how YOU would react.

How can you comment on things you have not experienced ?

War brutalises people, does this not apply to British soldiers too ?

eric

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 05:14 PM

Hopefully, they will at least receive therapy. Too many of these guys bring it home to their families and fellow citizens. Will the public be protected from them?

If they can't control themselves under stress, maybe there is something wrong with their training or maybe the job is just more than they can handle. In any event, it is unacceptable to use stress as an excuse for murder.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: folk1e
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 08:24 PM

Not an excuse but perhaps a mitigating factor?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 12:46 AM

A mitigating factor, yes, without a doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 01:08 AM

Which is to say it is a mitagating factor when considering the punishment. It should be considered when sentencing and counselling should be a part of the treatment while serving a lesser sentence. Nobody gets to walk away from murder.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 04:15 AM

Quote from dianavan " if they can't control themselves under stress "

Have you ever been under such stress ? if you haven't then don't make such stupid comments about those who have.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Big Phil
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 04:43 AM

I still back our troops to the hilt, even after all the rubbish spouted on here by the Iraqi backers.
Get real, we are at war, a war which I feel we should never have been involved in, but now we are in I will back our soldiers 110%.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 07:31 AM

Has any army ever showed itself to be more restrained than the British in operations like this?
There have been incidents and soldiers are, like all of us, less than perfect. But who could do it better?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Den
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 09:11 AM

The Canadians.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 10:35 AM

I'm with Big Phil,

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: skipy
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 11:16 AM

& me, Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 12:30 PM

Who could do it better, they are the perfect killing machine.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 04:16 PM

Blimey, what kept you?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 04:35 AM

I would recommend the following book by David Anderson, Histories of the hanged, The dirty war in Kenya, published in 2005.
I bought this book last year from Amazon, a true horror story of how the British rule in Kenya is exposed in all of its horror.
Read of the thousands of Kenyans who died in British concentration camps, this book ignores the constant stream of propaganda fed for years to the British public and reports the truth of what happened to the thousands of victims of colonial rule..
Turning a blind eye on history dosen`t make it go away, read this book and try to understand what it is like to exist under occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: skipy
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 04:50 AM

That was 50 years ago, things change!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 05:04 AM

Turning a blind eye on history dosen`t make it go away
True enough, but it's better to learn from past mistakes and move away from them towards something better than to live in the festering mess of one's past.
The British Army has undergone some extraordinary changes since the Seventies; doubtless some old sweats would see many of them as bad, but among them have been a growing political and social awareness among all ranks. I think it highly unlikely that institutionalised attitudes like those seen a generation ago would happen now. The mere fact that soldiers from the rank of Colonel down were charged over the death of a man in custody would have been almost unthinkable thirty years ago, whatever the outcome of the case.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 05:20 AM

Yes, these soldiers were charged, they have been through the courts and we now have to accept the outcome. Unfortunately some people seem to be unwilling to do that. British soldiers have my full support and more.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 01:47 PM

They were far from exemplary in the north of Ireland, ignore history seems to be the cry, there are plenty of Kenyans still living who don`t think 50 years ago is out of memory.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 03:48 AM

Kenya is a good friend of Britain Ard.
They even allow the army to train there.
You should not judge the events of half a century ago by today's mores.
Of the old colonial nations, Britain was by far the most benevolent.
Compare how Belgium behaved in the Congo about the same time.
Or Germany a few years earlier.
Or France a few years later in Algeria.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:28 AM

Try telling that to the Kenyans who have been applying for compensation for past deeds, and as for 50 years try telling that to the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:59 AM

Nevertheless, what I said is true.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:58 AM

Den, I agree that Canadian troops are every bit as good as British troops.
I was just reading about The BATIC agreement between our countries.
A permanent agreement.
I read this,"Canada and the United Kingdom enjoy significant and mutually beneficial defence relations, marked by close and frequent contact at the strategic, operational and tactical level. Elements of this relationship include partnership in combined operations in the Balkans and Afghanistan, military staff talks, personnel exchanges, equipment design, procurement, and training. The Canada-UK defence relationship will continue to be an important part of Canada's defence policy for the foreseeable future."

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 08:03 AM

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1993#tphp
Link to Canadian Forces site just quoted Den.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Den
Date: 07 May 07 - 12:17 PM

Waffle Keith, pure an unadulterated waffle. You can't in any seriousness compare the British army to the Canadian army in terms of peace keeping.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:04 PM

Blimey Den, where did that come from?
You have made about 50 posts since my last here three months ago.
So what is it you have suddenly decided that you disagree with?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:13 PM

Waiting for this to drop off the front page?
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/178566

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: dianavan
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:52 PM

From the link, "Obviously there could be a multitude of different explanations for that," Neve said in an interview. "We're not at all even reaching any tentative conclusions that Canadian soldiers have been responsible for ill-treatment or abuse. But allegations are out there and there are some injuries that were suffered so it's perfectly appropriate ... for there to be a review."

Don't try to pin something on Canadian troops when the allegations were made in early Feb. There has been a review and the problem has been dealt with.

..and if you had bothered to find out, you would have found that the new policy is that when prisoners are handed over to the Afghan military, Canada will now be given access to those prisoners. It seems the Afghans are treated very roughly by their own people.

You'll have to dig a little deeper than that, Keith.

Its dropped off the front page because it has been dealt with. Pointing your finger at Canadian troops does not pardon anything the British have done or continue to do.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 07 - 04:33 PM

Dianavan, it you read my posts here you will see that I point fingers at neither.
I believe that both Canadian and British troops are giving admirable service in the most difficult conditions.
I do not think any army could do a better job.
I was only suggesting a possible reason for the 3 month delay in Den's reply.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 07 - 11:17 AM

I think it is much more to do with the monumentous events in Ireland, Keith.

Now that the peace process is reaching it's zenith maybe some people do not like to think they will no longer have anyone to fight with?

If we had no enemies I guess we would have to invent them.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 07 - 02:01 PM

Maybe Dave.
Did you hear those remarkable and historic speeches?
And no one thought it worth a thread.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 08 May 07 - 02:17 PM

A lot of praise for Tony Blair too - must be a first!

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 07 - 02:43 PM

Or his last?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Den
Date: 08 May 07 - 02:45 PM

Its being discussed elsewhere on the Paisley pulls out thread. You see we're a wee bit cagey when it comes to these monumentous events, having seen it all before. Paisley refused to shake hands with McGuiness. How well do you think they are going to work together? But that's it from me, don't want to be accused of hi-jacking a thread or picking a fight.