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BS: More British soldiers walk free
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Subject: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: The Length Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:56 PM A court today found three British soldiers not guilty of war crimes in Iraq. Seems there will never be a British soldier found guilty of any crime serving over there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: mick p r.m s.c Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:04 PM Good at least our lads are getting support from the courts and the majority of the british people. British gov take notice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: MARINER Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:12 PM Of course they walked free . Don't you know that the wily Iraqui stabbed and beat himself 93 times and then died just so he could put "our boys" in a bad light. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:19 PM "support from the courts and the majority of the british people" should be completely irrelevant in any criminal case. If the evidence proved they were guilty they should have been found guilty, if it didn't they should have been found Not Guilty. I hope that the verdict was entirely based on that principle and not a on any notions of "support". This episode involved the killing in very unpleasant circumstances of an innocent young man, and that should not be forgotten. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: GUEST,Your justice is so good? Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:36 PM So it's 'bash the Brits again time' is it? Is your country so good at it? How many of yours have walked free? |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:45 PM "How many of yours have walked free?" What possible relevance does that have to this particular case? |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: folk1e Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:06 PM a level playing field perhaps? |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: folk1e Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:16 PM I did note that the senior officer, found not guilty today, was previously decorated during the conflict ....... a scapegoat perhaps? |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Captain Ginger Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:23 AM Funny that there's mention of Breaker Morant on another thread (but above the line)! |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:35 AM I am glad whenever our soldiers are getting the support they deserve. They were found not guilty based on the evidence produced and it has cost £20million. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: skipy Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:20 AM A court today found three British soldiers not guilty. Whats your problem? Just read the staement that you wrote! Here it is again for you:- A court today found three British soldiers not guilty. So that is the end of it, that's how our system works, they where NOT GUILTY. Skipy |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: GUEST Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:52 AM Skipy British courts ALWAYS find their own soldiers NOT GUILTY |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Big Phil Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:56 AM My advice to the do gooders, walk a mile in the soldiers shoes, then moan about them being found NOT GUILTY.......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:01 AM Guest (the anonymous one), that is not true. We used to shoot our own soldiers for not an awful lot. Thank god we've moved on from those days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Captain Ginger Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:06 AM GUEST - bollocks! |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: MARINER Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:17 AM So Big Phil , Are you saying that because they served in Iraq and the Iraqis attack them that it's all right to take innocent civilians off the street and beat and stab them until they die ? . Or what is it you are trying to say ?. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: skipy Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:29 AM Mariner, a court has decided that that did not happen, do you know better? where you there, did you witness things that the court don't know about? Skipy |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:46 AM These soldiers have been found NOT GUILTY in a very expensive trial. We have to assume that they are innocent. How would any of us feel if we went through a trial and were found not guilty and then other people decided to ignore that outcome? |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: GUEST,Fair Play Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:51 AM Maybe we could find them all guilty, whether they are or not. Then we could hold a meeting with the Iraqis on a Friday, [that would be good] Then we could agree to let them all out of jail again no matter what they'd done, just to keep everybody happy like! What a load of crap these anti Brits spout, it is better to have men declared not guilty walking the streets, than to have guilty men do so with the connivance of the British state. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: MARINER Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:52 AM skipy, Did this man not die of horrendous wounds in British custody ? Do you think he might have inflicted them on himself? Of course he didn't, but someone did and that someone must have been a member of the British Army (or perhaps they subcontract out their torturing to "contractors") |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Captain Ginger Date: 15 Feb 07 - 06:02 AM ,,,and, before we rush to judgement, remember that the incident is only part-heard. Cpl Donald Payne has admitted inhumane treatment, although he has been cleared of manslaughter and perverting the course of justice. He will be sentenced later for his admitted war crime. WO Mark Davies still faces trial after being charged with negligently performing a duty, and Maj Michael Peebles also faces trial on a similar charge. Courts martial are public and open, and are subject to the same forensic rigour as criminal trials in civilian life. The system is outline here Perhaps, however, the same cannot be said of the process which leads to soldiers being put in the dock in the first place. Like the CPS in civvy street, the APA and the Army Legal Service are maybe not the finest legal minds in the business. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: skipy Date: 15 Feb 07 - 06:39 AM Mariner, I pass no jugement on Cpl Payne, that is for a court to decide & I will be happy to stand by their decision. The point is the three that where found not guilty where found not guilty, but believe me (& I spent 25 years in the military) they are stuffed now. Skipy |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Mr Fox Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:47 AM They were hardly declared not guilty. The case was thrown out through lack of evidence. The whole thing reeks of cover up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Captain Ginger Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:07 AM Cock-up generally trumps cover-up, Mr Fox. I would be hugely surprised if there was a conspiracy to 'get them off'. I wouldn't be so surprised if there wasn't a little tacit leaning on the APA earlier in the case to ensure that a high profile scalp was in the dock. I don't think anyone denies that some soldiers behaved criminally and were complicit in the abuse and death of a civilian. What matters is that the right ones are punished and that we have a dispassionate legal system and not a series of show trials. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:19 AM The thing about the British justice system is that people are presumed innocent until proven guilty and I agree with Captain Ginger - it is very important that the right people are punished. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: kendall Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:21 AM War tends to turn some ordinary men into animals just as being in a pack turns Fido into a killer. How about the Warrant Officer who was found guilty of stuffing an Iraqi into a sleeping bag head first, then sitting on his chest until he suffocated? He got 6 months R.I.P. as I recall. (Reduction in pay) And some of us still wonder why they hate us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: skipy Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:22 AM In the military it is usually a case of "march the guilty bastard in" Skipy |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Grab Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:07 AM Mariner, how do *you* know who did it? How do *you* know these three did it? The three who were found not guilty were NEVER charged with war crimes. There was never question that they did NOT do it. The question for these three was whether they should have checked better what was going on and so stopped it happening. For that reason, they were charged with failing to carry out their duties. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: MARINER Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:49 AM You misunderstand me Grab .I do not know who did it, but I do know that an innocent man, in good health ended up in British Army custody dead and with 93 wounds of different kinds on his body. As it is very unlikely he inflicted these injuries on himself some of his gaolers must have. Who were his captors ? If they can't find the individuals responsible , charge the whole bloody lot of 'em It's that simple . |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:55 AM Now that would not be fair! |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Big Al Whittle Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:20 AM If you're one of these countries who never sees anything to be done. Let's face it, theres plenty of them in the European Union - sometimes it eerilly like spending an evening with someone who never buys a drink. Never seems to be at the bar at the right moment. Well then you can and you will see nothing to the English Army, but a load of murderers and thugs. ... They sorted out Hitler - sometimes facing armies larger than the number of troops holding down the rest of occupied Europe. they faced down Commie thugs like Kruschev, even when pacifist gits like me were saying 'give peace a chance' when we were ranged against the gang of genocidal scum that ran the gulags. And when people have been found guilty of even misjudgements. Some of them have done time. And now they're in Iraq. Someone said you and me needed defending from WMD's. Some of us were stupid enough to believe our leaders on that point. I find that hard enough to accept my stupidity about that. But for the soldiers the consequences have been much much worse. Rather like the 'presence in NI' - it should never have happened. I do seem to recognise that hysterical self righteous finger pointing style from certain other threads. I don't think it does your cause any honour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: MARINER Date: 15 Feb 07 - 01:48 PM Not fair ? There can't have been many on duty in that interogation centre at that particular time . The army should know who was on watch and just who was doing what ,where they were doing it and how they were doing it.So, bring in the whole watch and grill 'em .That should get results, especially if they use the same methods that they use on their own prisoners. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: GUEST,Camel mechanic Date: 15 Feb 07 - 02:15 PM Just heard that the Iraqi prisoner beat himself to death, our boys are off the hook. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Ebbie Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:47 PM I don't know how many of you who have posted so far are from countries besides the UK. My impression is that most of you are British. My question: If the troops in question were American and had "gone free", how many of you would jump in to proclaim their innocence? |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:50 PM If they had gone through the court process and been found not guilty then that is what they would be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Alec Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:52 PM Are The Length & Actress Wendy perchance related? Just a thought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Ebbie Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:57 PM Like OJ, eanjay? |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: GUEST,Skipy Date: 15 Feb 07 - 06:05 PM If they had gone through the court process and been found not guilty then that is what they would be. Agree! Skipy |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Tootler Date: 16 Feb 07 - 06:27 AM The onus is on the prosecution to prove the charge "beyond reasonable doubt" If there is insufficient evidence to prove the charge, there must be reasonable doubt. The "beyond reasonable doubt" test is meant as a protection for the innocent. No system of justice is perfect and in a criminal trial, there are two undesirable potential outcomes;
Of the two, the second is clearly very much undesirable which is why there must be severe test before finding a person guilty even at the risk of sometimes letting a guilty person go free. It is also the reason why we have a system of appeals against conviction. I think that it is as well to bear this in mind before making accusations of "stitch up" or "whitewash". |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Grab Date: 16 Feb 07 - 06:33 AM Mariner, there's no question that someone did it. One of them has already pleaded guilty, other soldiers have given evidence against them. For the ones who went free, I'm shocked that they thought stress positions and sleep deprivation were OK. What worries me is that that might have been in widespread use with explicit or implicit sanction within the British army - or at least that it might have been at the time anyway (remember that this was 4 years ago). This trial isn't trying to cover that though, so that's a separate issue. And we already know it was (and *is*) in use by the US army, but that's a separate issue again. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: skipy Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:03 AM TOMMY by Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936) I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer, The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here." The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die, I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I: O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away"; But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play, The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play, O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play. I went into a theatre as sober as could be, They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me; They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls, But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls! For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside"; But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide, The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide, O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide. Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap; An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit. Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?" But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll, The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll, O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll. We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too, But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you; An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints, Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints; While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind", But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind, There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind, O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind. You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all: We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational. Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace. For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees! |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:05 AM Ebbie 4.57pm - it rhymes! |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:18 AM Skipy, I love that Rudyard Kipling poem you have quoted. I don't remember reading it before. It reminded me about the Harvey Andrews' song "Soldier". I've just got my LP Harvey Andrews Writer of Songs out and the write-up on the back about the song Soldier seems to be very appropriate here. "If you can con an ordinary man into protecting your interests, he gets done when the crisis comes, not you. Many soldiers are not professional killers, they're kids who couldn't get a job, and as unemployment has soared, recruiting for the army has increased by over 60% in three years. The average soldier is unimportant in the final analysis, it's the ones who shelter behind him that count.....and they always seem to survive!" Of course I do appreciate that it is quite an old LP. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: skipy Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:45 AM It's always been that way & always will be! Skipy |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:57 AM Soldier (Harvey Andrews) In a station in the city a British soldier stood Talking to the people there if the people would Some just stared in hatred, and others turned in pain And the lonely British soldier wished he was back home again Come join the British Army! said the posters in his town See the world and have your fun come serve before the Crown The jobs were hard to come by and he could not face the dole So he took his country's shilling and enlisted on the roll For there was no fear of fighting, the Empire long was lost Just ten years in the army getting paid for being bossed Then leave a man experienced a man who's made the grade A medal and a pension some mem'ries and a trade Then came the call for Ireland as the call had come before Another bloody chapter in an endless civil war The priests they stood on both sides the priests they stood behind Another fight in Jesus's name the blind against the blind The soldier stood between them between the whistling stones And then the broken bottles that led to broken bones The petrol bombs that burnt his hands the nails that pierced his skin And wished that he had stayed at home surrounded by his kin The station filled with people the soldier soon was bored But better in the station than where the people warred The room filled up with mothers with daughters and with sons Who stared with itchy fingers at the soldier and his gun A yell of fear a screech of brakes the shattering of glass The window of the station broke to let the package pass A scream came from the mothers as they ran towards the door Dragging their children crying from the bomb upon the floor The soldier stood and could not move his gun he could not use He knew the bomb had seconds and not minutes on the fuse He could not run and pick it up and throw it in the street There were far too many people there too many running feet Take cover! yelled the soldier, Take cover for your lives And the Irishmen threw down their young and stood before their wives They turned towards the soldier their eyes alive with fear For God's sake save our children or they'll end their short lives here The soldier moved towards the bomb his stomach like a stone Why was this his battle God why was he alone He lay down on the package and he murmured one farewell To those at home in England to those he loved so well He saw the sights of summer felt the wind upon his brow The young girls in the city parks how precious were they now The soaring of the swallow the beauty of the swan The music of the turning world so soon would it be gone A muffled soft explosion and the room began to quake The soldier blown across the floor his blood a crimson lake There was no time to cry or shout there was no time to moan And they turned their children's faces from the blood and from the bones The crowd outside soon gathered and the ambulances came To carry off the body of a pawn lost in the game And the crowd they clapped and cheered and they sang their rebel song One soldier less to interfere where he did not belong And will the children growing up learn at their mothers' knees The story of the soldier who bought their liberty Who used his youthful body as a means towards an end Who gave his life to those who called him murderer not friend |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 16 Feb 07 - 08:35 AM Inspired, if I'm not mistaken, by an actual incident. A wonderful piece of writing. Kendall put his finger on something too - that war turns men into animals. How many of us on here have actually been to war? Not many, I'll bet, certainly not me. Yet so many seem to know all the answers, take the high moral ground and criticise those who have, and who have faced things we can't even begin to imagine. A very old friend of mine, a member of the Parachute Regiment who fought in Italy and was taken POW at Arnhem during WWII, and who died not so long ago, used to say that, in war, the enemy don't have a monopoly on acts of evil. He was a kind and gentle man, but he'd been there and knew what men are capable of. Doesn't justify wrongdoing, but puts a perspective on some of the things that happen. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 16 Feb 07 - 09:15 AM In 1971 in Belfast a soldier called Sergeant Willis cleared a room of civilians because of a bomb. As he went to close the door afterwards, the charge exploded, and he was killed. Harvey Andrews, was so struck by the incident that he wrote the song to make the point that soldiers, too, are HUMAN. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: GUEST,Norman Wilson Date: 16 Feb 07 - 09:20 AM Your right eanjay, I remember reading about it. Never understood the part of the song in which Mr, Andrews wrote "Her cup size made me emotional". |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Mr Fox Date: 16 Feb 07 - 12:04 PM "Cock-up generally trumps cover-up, Mr Fox. I would be hugely surprised if there was a conspiracy to 'get them off'. I wouldn't be so surprised if there wasn't a little tacit leaning on the APA earlier in the case to ensure that a high profile scalp was in the dock. I don't think anyone denies that some soldiers behaved criminally and were complicit in the abuse and death of a civilian. What matters is that the right ones are punished and that we have a dispassionate legal system and not a series of show trials" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ You have a point, Captain. Somebody should be brought to account for this but I agree with you that it should be the right 'somebody'. OK maybe it wasn't a cover-up, but........... Oh hell, I don't know. The whole damn thing is a shambles and waste of money and lives in my opinion - all this just to overthrow a tinpot dictator. The Iraqi people probably would have done it themselves eventually. |
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Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free From: Big Phil Date: 16 Feb 07 - 02:52 PM MARINER, I wish we had never invaded Iraq, I have no time for Bliar and his cohorts, BUT now our brave and fearless lads and lasses are there, I think we should back them to the hilt. |
