BS: More British soldiers walk free

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Den
Date: 08 May 07 - 02:45 PM

Its being discussed elsewhere on the Paisley pulls out thread. You see we're a wee bit cagey when it comes to these monumentous events, having seen it all before. Paisley refused to shake hands with McGuiness. How well do you think they are going to work together? But that's it from me, don't want to be accused of hi-jacking a thread or picking a fight.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 07 - 02:43 PM

Or his last?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 08 May 07 - 02:17 PM

A lot of praise for Tony Blair too - must be a first!

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 07 - 02:01 PM

Maybe Dave.
Did you hear those remarkable and historic speeches?
And no one thought it worth a thread.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 07 - 11:17 AM

I think it is much more to do with the monumentous events in Ireland, Keith.

Now that the peace process is reaching it's zenith maybe some people do not like to think they will no longer have anyone to fight with?

If we had no enemies I guess we would have to invent them.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 07 - 04:33 PM

Dianavan, it you read my posts here you will see that I point fingers at neither.
I believe that both Canadian and British troops are giving admirable service in the most difficult conditions.
I do not think any army could do a better job.
I was only suggesting a possible reason for the 3 month delay in Den's reply.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: dianavan
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:52 PM

From the link, "Obviously there could be a multitude of different explanations for that," Neve said in an interview. "We're not at all even reaching any tentative conclusions that Canadian soldiers have been responsible for ill-treatment or abuse. But allegations are out there and there are some injuries that were suffered so it's perfectly appropriate ... for there to be a review."

Don't try to pin something on Canadian troops when the allegations were made in early Feb. There has been a review and the problem has been dealt with.

..and if you had bothered to find out, you would have found that the new policy is that when prisoners are handed over to the Afghan military, Canada will now be given access to those prisoners. It seems the Afghans are treated very roughly by their own people.

You'll have to dig a little deeper than that, Keith.

Its dropped off the front page because it has been dealt with. Pointing your finger at Canadian troops does not pardon anything the British have done or continue to do.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:13 PM

Waiting for this to drop off the front page?
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/178566

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:04 PM

Blimey Den, where did that come from?
You have made about 50 posts since my last here three months ago.
So what is it you have suddenly decided that you disagree with?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Den
Date: 07 May 07 - 12:17 PM

Waffle Keith, pure an unadulterated waffle. You can't in any seriousness compare the British army to the Canadian army in terms of peace keeping.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 08:03 AM

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1993#tphp
Link to Canadian Forces site just quoted Den.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:58 AM

Den, I agree that Canadian troops are every bit as good as British troops.
I was just reading about The BATIC agreement between our countries.
A permanent agreement.
I read this,"Canada and the United Kingdom enjoy significant and mutually beneficial defence relations, marked by close and frequent contact at the strategic, operational and tactical level. Elements of this relationship include partnership in combined operations in the Balkans and Afghanistan, military staff talks, personnel exchanges, equipment design, procurement, and training. The Canada-UK defence relationship will continue to be an important part of Canada's defence policy for the foreseeable future."

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:59 AM

Nevertheless, what I said is true.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:28 AM

Try telling that to the Kenyans who have been applying for compensation for past deeds, and as for 50 years try telling that to the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 03:48 AM

Kenya is a good friend of Britain Ard.
They even allow the army to train there.
You should not judge the events of half a century ago by today's mores.
Of the old colonial nations, Britain was by far the most benevolent.
Compare how Belgium behaved in the Congo about the same time.
Or Germany a few years earlier.
Or France a few years later in Algeria.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 01:47 PM

They were far from exemplary in the north of Ireland, ignore history seems to be the cry, there are plenty of Kenyans still living who don`t think 50 years ago is out of memory.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 05:20 AM

Yes, these soldiers were charged, they have been through the courts and we now have to accept the outcome. Unfortunately some people seem to be unwilling to do that. British soldiers have my full support and more.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 05:04 AM

Turning a blind eye on history dosen`t make it go away
True enough, but it's better to learn from past mistakes and move away from them towards something better than to live in the festering mess of one's past.
The British Army has undergone some extraordinary changes since the Seventies; doubtless some old sweats would see many of them as bad, but among them have been a growing political and social awareness among all ranks. I think it highly unlikely that institutionalised attitudes like those seen a generation ago would happen now. The mere fact that soldiers from the rank of Colonel down were charged over the death of a man in custody would have been almost unthinkable thirty years ago, whatever the outcome of the case.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: skipy
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 04:50 AM

That was 50 years ago, things change!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 04:35 AM

I would recommend the following book by David Anderson, Histories of the hanged, The dirty war in Kenya, published in 2005.
I bought this book last year from Amazon, a true horror story of how the British rule in Kenya is exposed in all of its horror.
Read of the thousands of Kenyans who died in British concentration camps, this book ignores the constant stream of propaganda fed for years to the British public and reports the truth of what happened to the thousands of victims of colonial rule..
Turning a blind eye on history dosen`t make it go away, read this book and try to understand what it is like to exist under occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 04:16 PM

Blimey, what kept you?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 12:30 PM

Who could do it better, they are the perfect killing machine.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: skipy
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 11:16 AM

& me, Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 10:35 AM

I'm with Big Phil,

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Den
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 09:11 AM

The Canadians.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 07:31 AM

Has any army ever showed itself to be more restrained than the British in operations like this?
There have been incidents and soldiers are, like all of us, less than perfect. But who could do it better?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Big Phil
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 04:43 AM

I still back our troops to the hilt, even after all the rubbish spouted on here by the Iraqi backers.
Get real, we are at war, a war which I feel we should never have been involved in, but now we are in I will back our soldiers 110%.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 04:15 AM

Quote from dianavan " if they can't control themselves under stress "

Have you ever been under such stress ? if you haven't then don't make such stupid comments about those who have.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 01:08 AM

Which is to say it is a mitagating factor when considering the punishment. It should be considered when sentencing and counselling should be a part of the treatment while serving a lesser sentence. Nobody gets to walk away from murder.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 12:46 AM

A mitigating factor, yes, without a doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: folk1e
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 08:24 PM

Not an excuse but perhaps a mitigating factor?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 05:14 PM

Hopefully, they will at least receive therapy. Too many of these guys bring it home to their families and fellow citizens. Will the public be protected from them?

If they can't control themselves under stress, maybe there is something wrong with their training or maybe the job is just more than they can handle. In any event, it is unacceptable to use stress as an excuse for murder.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 04:26 AM

I think what ' old swaet ' is trying to tell you MARINER is that unless you have been in a situation like ANY of our soldiers in Iraq then you don't know how YOU would react.

How can you comment on things you have not experienced ?

War brutalises people, does this not apply to British soldiers too ?

eric

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 11:41 PM

Unfortunately the world is full of individuals who, although able to castigate and criticise those who might be doing an unpalatable job, are themselves totally unable to do that same job.
Most of those individuals become politicians!
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 08:21 PM

Guest (the anonymous one), you seem to have lost the plot.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 08:12 PM

No bubblegob, that wasn't the purpose of the court case. See the American opinions have arrived. You forgot "God bless America"

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 08:09 PM

Good point Bubblyrat.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: bubblyrat
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 08:01 PM

The guy who ended up dead----Has anyone asked what HE did ?? Does anyone CARE what he did ?? That he might have been caught red-handed planting a roadside bomb designed to kill and maim young men with no warning, none of the rules of warfare,no decency or humanity,or compassion,or sense of morality,or of good and evil ?? So what are our troops ,having scraped up the remains of one of their colleagues and put them in a bin-liner,supposed to do when the suspect they have arrested is uncooperative ?? Make him a cup of tea,and send for a Human Rights advisor ?? Actually,some of our boys might even do that,which is why they stand out head -and-shoulders against the cowardly scum that they are 'fighting', but the British Army has NEVER been able to guarantee the British Public that none of its soldiers will ever react violently under the stresses of continued attack by a faceless,civilian clothes wearing army of fanatical terrorists. I think I would "Lose It" under those conditions, and I bet a lot of YOU would,as well. You make me sick.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: The Length
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 07:01 PM

I still think no matter what the cost the government can never prosecute any of the guys who served out there. It's a moral thing and the guys would think twice about pulling trigger, do something for Queen and country and end up in the Scrubs, not likely mate.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 06:18 PM

That is a good point about the money spent on the trial - £20million pounds so far - but there wasn't enough money to properly equip the troops in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: folk1e
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 05:56 PM

It does bring a point up though,
If we have a conflict where one side does not recognise the others rules should the first side turn a "blind eye" when things get out of hand?
For my two penne'th The guy was killed in Brittish jurisdiction and his family should be compensated. If the cause was due to a "rogue" man they should be disceplined. If the cause was due to a common practice the practice should be stopped and those responsible for promulgating it punnished. Dragging this through the filter of the media is wrong!
Sorry for waffaling on ........ How meany troops lives could have been saved with the money spent on the courts marshal / trial?
Why wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: The Length
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 02:45 PM

Could someone get a violin and play a sad tune for GUEST,Old Sweat. Never read such rubbish in my life from a wannabe.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 02:02 PM

MARINER, don't get wound up - it's only a discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: MARINER
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 12:19 PM

Ah yes ,sorry about that ,guess i was wound up. My apologies to Camel Mechanic .

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 12:11 PM

Ah ha! I suspect that Mariner is a Brit- how is it that s/he doesn't recognize satire?

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: MARINER
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 11:49 AM

Old Sweat as my name might suggest to you , I have never been in the army .Are you saying that if you're under pressure than it's all right to kill civilians? Just like you did in Derry ? Camel Mechanic, I guess they were all good boys too, worthy representatives of your dear old land? If you really believe all you've said there then , you Sir, are a fool .

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 10:50 AM

You've put your name in capital letters this time!

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: GUEST,CAMEL MECHANIC
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 10:27 AM

This has gone on long enough our lads don`t murder anyone they never have, thay are all good boys worthy repesentitives of our dear old land, please get off their backs, all British soldiers behaved like true gents where ever they served.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 08:18 AM

The Length 6.44am. British soldiers have already faced charges, why do you think they were in court? As for "ode bad for moral" - soldiers not only have the stress of their job, when serving in foreign countries, to deal with but can now look forward to prosecutions when they come home. Our soldiers have suffered some terrible atrocities themselves and their welfare needs to be considered in all of this.

Subject: RE: BS: More British soldiers walk free
From: GUEST,Old Sweat
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 08:01 AM

Speaking as an ex-British solidier [ invalided out ] and addressing the Length and MARINER in particular, have YOU been there ? have you served ? do you know what it is like to live constantly under the threat of violence and death 24 hours a day ? if not then shut the fuck up until you know what you are talking about.