BS: Rising crime rates, question.

Subject: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: kendall
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 05:37 PM

I'm curious. A good friend of mine believes that even though firearms are tightly controlled in other countries, your crime rate is through the roof.
Comments please. Facts, not opinions if possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 05:48 PM

Firearms are such an emotional issue that I doubt that any thread devoted to them will stick to facts. Maybe I'll be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Michael
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 06:17 PM

Lots of crime doesn't involve firearms.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 06:17 PM

You'll need to have something like a ratio of crimes with firearms per capita of population vs. crimes without firearms but with other weapons vs. crimes without any weapons. I'm assuming violent crime here, not something like embezzlement or malfeasance.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 06:19 PM

Compare Vancouver and Seattle who are very similar except for the gun laws. Seattle has more lethal crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 07:18 PM

Hey, y'all, reread Kendall's post. I thnk he's asking what is the crime rate in countries that have strictly controlled access to guns. Presumably that means also asking what kinds of crime are prevalent or common in those countries. Or at least, those are the questions I'd like to see answered. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: kendall
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 07:34 PM

The last time in was in England, it seemed that there were many stabbings. Some appeared to be random.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 07:41 PM

Having a gun makes it easier to pull the trigger. I will go look for some stats.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 07:51 PM

OK: Crime rates have fallen somewhat in the past 12 years in the US. Check here. If you click on the graphs they 'blow up' (sorry, just had to say that).

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 08:12 PM

""The stock of restricted weapons (almost all handguns) increased from an estimated 651,000 in 1976 to 923,000 in 1988 (based on the total number of restricted weapons registered with and reported by the RCMP.""

Another site stated (I'll show how to Google it in a moment--it's PDF and I can't link to that) that violent crime rates are about three times higher in the US than in Canada (in general). Google

Crime Statistics in Canada, 2005

It is a 24 page document. Look at Figure 6. Then drop to Table 1 on page 15.

Now, what was the question? -:)

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: pdq
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 08:20 PM

Kennesaw, {GA} has the nickname of "Gun Town, USA" due to a city ordinance passed in 1982 that requires every head of household to maintain a firearm with ammunition. It was passed partly in response to a 1981 handgun ban in Morton Grove, Illinois. Kennesaw's law was amended in 1983 to exempt those who conscientiously object to owning a firearm, convicted felons, those who cannot afford a firearm, and those with a mental or physical disability that would prevent them from owning a firearm. It mentions no penalty for its violation. According to the Kennesaw Historical Society, no one has ever been charged under the law.

Criminologist and gun-control critic Gary Kleck attributes a drop of 89% in the residential burglary rate to the law and Kennesaw is often cited by advocates of gun ownership as evidence that gun ownership deters crime...


{From Wikipoopoo but it looks OK.}

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 08:31 PM

Crime rates are tied up with all kind of factors aside from whether guns are legal or not, or whether there's a gun culture or not. (Those are different issues, sometimes confused.)

I doubt if guns make much difference either way to a mass of crimes, from shoplifting to rape.

Here's a page ranking countries by their murder rate - a casual look does seem to indicate that countries with strict gun controls do tend to be a fair bit lower than those without, but there are probably exceptions, and there are so many other variations between the countries.

The USA at number 24 in the list with 0.042802 per 1,000 people is a lot less murder prone than Colombia up the top with 0.617847 per 1,000 people, but it doesn't compare to well with the UK at 46, with   0.0140633 per 1,000 people - but then gun are a bit less strict in Ireland, and that's down at 55 with 0.00946215 per 1,000 people.(Canada come in at 44 with 0.0149063 per 1,000 people.)

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: GUEST,facts fan
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 08:47 PM

Anecdotal information is usually worth than useless in these sort of discussions.
The actual figures for England and Wales can be found here broken down into specific crimes -

Home Office statistics

they don't present any kind of simple "overview" but they hardly paint a picture of crime being "over the roof" either!

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: GUEST,facts fan
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 09:06 PM

more unfortunately non headline grabbing facts -

gun crime statistics UK

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 09:57 PM

I read somewhere that if you get angry and punch someone, they might get a bloody nose. If you get angry and shoot someone, they will probably die.

Makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Scrump
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 05:50 AM

firearms are tightly controlled in other countries

Theoretically, guns are against the law here in the UK, but they seem to be easier to get hold of these days, and the worrying trend is for young teenagers to be using them increasingly.

A gun in the hands of a teenager with volatile emotions is more worrying to me than one in the hands of an older person, who is less likely to kill you without good reason.

So I'm not sure they are 'tightly controlled' here, unfortunately. I don't know what the government is doing about it, apart from their pathetic response to lower the 'age of responsibility' for guns to 18 instead of 21. Fat lot of good that will do.

(All above IMO of course)

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 08:01 AM

There seem to be more problems with guns, at the moment, than there used to be. I live in Yorkshire and recently there have been a number of incidents in Leeds which I don't remember happening years ago. However, I don't have any actual facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: bubblyrat
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 08:37 AM

The problem, as always, comes from our appalling government. They believe that making it incresingly harder for ordinary,law-abiding citizens to obtain the licence needed for gun ownership,thus reducing the number of legally-held firearms,is somehow going to reduce the number of gun-related crimes !!! They, and especially the traitor and criminal Tony Blair, do not have the intelligence to realise that no potential bank-robber or murderer is going to be stupid enough to apply for a permit,so that he or she can then buy a registered & traceable firearm !!!Rather, they will go to an underworld dealer in a pub or bar in London, or some other big city, where,as everybody knows (except the police ) it is relatively easy to obtain firearms & ammunition , due to the large quantities of same being smuggled into the UK from the Continent, under the noses of our two border guards, Pete & Dave, in Dover. Making it a "capital" ( ie Hanging ) offence to be in illegal possession of a firearm, to use one in a murder or robbery,or to import and distribute weapons and ammunition, would have,of course,a profound effect on gun -crime statistics, but then it would infringe criminals" " Human Rights ", although Tony Blair and his mad cronies don"t give a toss about the Human Rights of Joe Public !! So while the current bunch of lunatics have the reins of power in their blood-soaked hands, the situation can only get worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 08:44 AM

McGrath of Harlow is correct: you also need a culture that "approves" of guns and their use. I also think that you have to look at the question of urban vs. rural crime (guns, at least in the US, are more readily available in rural areas).

But I also think, and the UK fears about guns and teenagers coupled with the teenage- and young adult- shootings in the US seem to bear this out, that the world is becoming a more dangerous and violent place.

The media has also glorified firearms (and explosives and violence in general) as a solution. On those rare ocassions when violence IS, not justified it is a tool which should be used in sorrow.

I still feel no compulsion to pack heat to work every day. In fact, I don't do that at all (even though I legally could). If it ever comes to the point where I feel compelled to go armed I think I'll just retire.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 07:09 AM

Interestingly in Australia, there is an correlation between rising crime rates and rising imprisonment.

The more prisoners, the more crime - because since there is almost no real attempt at rehabilitation (in terms of % amount of money spent on rehab vs prison cost) then "once a prisoner, then always a criminal" - they have no incentive or real assistance to live a life separate from criminal influences, and find it easier to just try to get back inside. They also become 'addicted to violence' while inside (allegedly to survive!), and thus tend to be locked up again later for violence!

Victoria spends more on real rehab, and has a lower re-offence rate.

Approx AUD$75,000 p.a. to keep a prisoner (3 meals a day, board, etc) for 12 months - $5,000 p.a. for an effective rehab program - btw less than $15,000 p.a. for a pensioner.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Bee
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 07:27 AM

A while back I looked at Stats Canada's crime rate comparisons. Interestingly, we have less violent crime than the US, but our auto theft rate is higher. We won't likely shoot you, but we will steal your car at the drop of a hat.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 09:03 AM

That's nice to know, Bee. When I go to Edmonton this August I'll drive a stolen car. That way when it's stolen I won't be out anything.

By the way, was that "less violent crime" a total or as a population ratio?

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Grab
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 10:10 AM

UK has proportionally more violent crime than the US. However it has vanishingly fewer murders (again proportionally to population).

Stabbings between schoolkids are getting a lot of publicity in the UK just now. Personally I think a lot of that is media-driven - not by imitation but by an environment of fear. If you're constantly told that the kids at other schools have knives, you're more likely to want one yourself for protection. Or, worse, you might up the ante and find a gun.

I'm with dianavan on this one. If you get in a punch-up with someone, you're unlikely to die. If guns or knives are involved, you *are* likely to die. If you're in a fight, you're not going to be sporting and avoid using a knife just because your opponent hasn't (or hasn't *yet*) - if you carry a weapon, eventually it'll get used.

Incidentally, when people wring their hands about violent crime these days and how things were better in the "old days", I always want to know when those "old days" were. Look back 50 years and you've got punks, skinheads, Mods, Rockers and Teds, just to name the most obvious ones. And the infamous English football hooliganism of the 70s and 80s. And the Afro-Caribbean immigrant community (a quote I heard from a radio documentary about the old dancehalls and sound systems was: "A white guy only had to know one person to get in, but he'd have to know the whole hall to get out").

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 10:12 AM

"That's nice to know, Bee. When I go to Edmonton this August I'll drive a stolen car. That way when it's stolen I won't be out anything."

Make, model and colour. The sooner the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Bee
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 02:22 PM

Population ratio, Rapaire, on both issues.

Hmm... I'm too far from Edmonton to steal your car, have to call my cousin. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 02:46 PM

Murcielago LP640 by Lamborghini, red.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: ragdall
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 06:24 PM

Statistics can be misleading (DUH!). Where I live, (North-central British Columbia), in the numbers of robberies using a "weapon", they include those in which the robber uses a finger to simulate a pistol barrel.

rags

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 06:28 PM

Rap,

We will have to paint it.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 12:30 PM

I'm just tired of "ordinary law abiding citizens" who think they need guns because they FUN. gimmee a break.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 01:53 PM

RE: Dinavan's example--it seems that it is the anger that gets you punched in the face or shot. In this case, it seems prudent to look at the reasons for the increase in anger--

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 02:23 PM

It is not the anger that get you punched, it is the lack of consequence that does it. We constantly make excuses for bad behaviour but condemn it when it happens to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 02:41 PM

I have many friends who have guns, all legal. In my younger days it wasn't always so, but times change. I fire maybe 500 rounds a year with a scoped .22, .357 and 9 mm. It is fun. The guns are registerd, BTW, and we use them on a range.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 04:00 PM

As do I, Peace. Mostly I shoot .38 Special, .22 rifle and pistol, .30-06. I'm getting back "into" muzzleloading and blackpowder now, too.

On a range (and a danged nice one, too!) Legal weapons. At paper targets.

IF I were to buy another cartridge gun, it would probably be something like a single-shot rolling block action 19th-Century style target rifle in 45-70 caliber -- a so called "buffalo gun" which I would use for long-range shooting.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 04:09 PM

Occasionally my buddy loads .38 Special and we'll fire some. Hell, as is anyone, I am deadly and fast with the .22, but once the rifle is sighted in, the projectile goes where physics sends it. Kinda hard to miss with it. But, I am piss poor with handguns. If I can hit the center ring with half the shots I consider it a good day.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 04:09 PM

Rapaire,

I recently got an Italian Remington 1858 New Army 44 cal. The real advantage of black powder is that you have a good-sized cloud to hide behind! :)

No place around that is convenient to shoot my 1911 Colt 45. but then, to even take it out of the secure box is asking for trouble, these days, in this area. ( MD, near DC)

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 04:47 PM

I think you're wrong on that, GUEST--it's the angry ones that do the punching, every time--

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 04:50 PM

As to consequences, they are the same as always--a punch in the face begets a punch in the face(or worse)--

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 05:20 PM

It's not the guns, it's when they end up in the hands of right-wing-religous-wakkos like George W. Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:02 AM

Guns are a bad thing, they are a luxury (for fun) that no society should tolerate. I believe we should ban them all,full stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:33 AM

There aren't 'lots of stabbings', nor are there 'lots of shootings' in the UK. There are *some* stabbings and *some* shootings, as there are in most countries (if not every country).

Crime and crime rates are a sensitive issue that the media know they can latch on to in order to sell copy. They feed the public fear that gun- and knife-crime are rampant, and that around every corner there's a gun- or knife-toting druggie waiting to murder the first person who comes in to range.

It's simply not true. In sixty years I've never even seen an illegally-held gun (I've only seen a very small number of legally-held guns, for that matter), nor have I ever been attacked, or threatened, or witnessed anyone being attacked or threatened, with a gun or knife.

The UK is no more lawless than many other countries, there's just a lot of TV and newspaper hype going on to scare people into thinking it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:57 AM

England has its dark underside, and if you're looking to get clever and not take your library books back on time - you'd better come heeled, brother.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Bee
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:59 AM

Unfortunately, I have known several young people murdered with handguns over drugs and prostitution, in Halifax, Nova Scotia. I have also known children threatened with gun violence in their own neighbourhoods. No one's ever threatened me with a gun, but then, I don't live in a dangerous area. I've no problem with hunters and target shooters, but I don't think we should encourage widespread ownership of handguns.

At least one of those young people would likely be alive were it not for an angry young man with a handgun. An hour later, the shooter might have reconsidered his anger. I know all the apologetics: "only criminals will have handguns", "it's for protection", etc., but the fewer, the better, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:14 AM

And again a thread on crime prevention becomes a thread on gun control.

How do you go about changing the perception that violence is a solution? What do you do about the media? When that cat said, "Put up your sword, for those who take up the sword will perish by it" -- how do you get the message across to the neo-Christians?

How do you change a culture that, sponge-like, has been soaking up the notion of violence for hundredS of years?

Subject: RE: BS: Rising crime rates, question.
From: Bee
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:17 AM

Rapaire, make that thousands of years. Ozzie the Iceman, it appears, was murdered.