BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 03:28 PM

By the way, in the U.S., one does not "stand" for President; one "runs" for President.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 07:55 PM

a driver who drinks but is below the limit is not a drunk driver,a drunk driver is one who is over the limit.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 08:43 PM

I repeat: if I had two pints in two hours and drove home, I would be a drunk driver, whether or not I was over the legal limit. That is a fact. I would be drunk, and I would be driving. That is what a drunk driver is. The people you kill don't care much whether it was legal or not, they are still dead either way. I don't drink much, so it affects me more than it does a 'regular drinker'. I'm also on medication for hypertension which seems to double the effect of alcohol on me. There are no excuses; anyone who needs alcohol to the point of risking lives is an alcoholic, and shouldn't even have a licence to drive.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 09:07 PM

I have my own private reasons for feeling strongly about this, but I recommend, Dick, that you put your views to a few people who have had relatives and children killed or injured by drunk drivers, and see what sort of reaction you get. The Law is supposed to be for everyone's benefit, not just a few selfish boozers.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 08:46 AM

Smokey,your response is illogical,I do understand that if you have private reasons for feeling as you do,you feel strongly about it.but if you can put your emotional involvement aside:
any person who loses a realative through any kind of dangerous driving,whether the driver is sober or not has aright to feel upset.
   the responsibilty lies with the Irish government,it is their duty as they are supposed to represent every person in Irish society,to ensure there is proper public transport available to everyone before they bring in a law like this.,
if it isnt they should bring in a two teir system,so that in major cites the level can be 50mg but elsewhere it remains the same.
DANGEROUS DRIVING and deaths by car accidents involve both sober drugged tired and intoxicated people,there is no statistical evidence to justify this reduction.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 01:11 PM

"a driver who drinks but is below the limit is not a drunk driver,a drunk driver is one who is over the limit."

No, Schweik, you are wrong, for several reasons:

- First of all, you said yourself that "you can be over the limit, without having consumed any alcohol [medication can do this]". Therefore, someone whose blood-alcohol level is over the legal limit for driving but who has not consumed alcohol is not "drunk", although his/her ability to drive is definitely affected by that blood-alcohol level. He or she would be "driving under the influence (DUI)" of a medication or whatever else had caused his/her blood-alcohol level to rise.

- Secondly, anyone who consumes any amount of alcohol is intoxicated because he/she has ingested a toxic substance that affects his/her brain chemistry AND is considered "drunk" because that toxic substance is alcohol. The level of drunkenness changes with the level of alcohol in his/her system, but the only non-drunk person is a sober person (i.e. a person who has not consumed any alcohol).

- Thirdly, you are confusing the term "drunk" with the term "legally intoxicated". (Either that, or you are intentionally being a prat!) Governments set laws to determine the level of intoxication at which they will prosecute a person for Driving Under the Influence; anyone below that level is still intoxicated, even though he/she cannot legally be prosecuted for driving at that blood-alcohol level. Governments can and do change their laws to lower the level of intoxication at which they will prosecute a driver, but that does not change the fact that anyone who consumes any amount of alcohol is going to be affected by it in a way that reduces his/her ability to drive safely.

Governments do represent all of the people they govern, BUT they have a mandate to fulfill the promises on which they were elected to office by the majority of the voters and to act responsibly in the interests of the safety and civility of their region, even when some of their constituents want them to do something irresponsible (such as raising the legal limit for DUI!).

Schweik, you keep claiming that there is no statistical evidence that justifies the lowering of the legal limit, but only because you keep ignoring the evidence that is there. When a statistic is presented to you, you insist that it "proves nothing" because you don't want to believe it. When someone posts a logical comment, you say it is illogical. When someone points out a flaw in your logic, you either ignore the comment or complain that the poster is ignorant. It seems that you do not want to listen to anyone but yourself, and that you've opened this discussion for the sole purpose of shooting down anyone who disagrees with you.

Unfortunately for you, what you have actually done here is to make yourself look awfully foolish.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 01:27 PM

Why would anyone oppose a reduction in the legal limit unless they wanted to continue drinking and driving?

Why take the chance anyway? Keep the taxi drivers employed and call one the next time you've been drinking and need to get home. In America we use the term "designated driver" for someone who doesn't drink and is responsible for driving folks home at the end of the evening. Is this a common practice in Ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 05:57 PM

ha ha,there are no taxi drivers available here,you really dont know what its like here in rural ireland,you spout off, without knowing the circumstances.
there are not enough people living here to make it worth their while,sure there are taxi drivers ibn Cork city and Bandon,and even Skibbereen,but they make more money at the nightclubs in Skibbereen,you cant get them to come out here ,take a taxi,ha ha hahaha.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 06:51 PM

there is no statistical evidence to justify this reduction.

Of course there isn't, they haven't done it yet. There is quite probably evidence from other countries that have taken similar measures though - I suggest you have a look in Google if you are interested enough.

As far as I know though, and this is based solely on many years of personal experimentation and admittedly unscientific observation, the more one drinks, the more drunk one gets. It's by no means unreasonable, therefore, to assume that consuming less alcohol will, on average, improve the standard of driving.

Accidents caused by factors unrelated to the consumption of alcohol are completely irrelevant to your argument; those statistics aren't going to change significantly just because they lower the alcohol limit.

To expect the Irish government to start laying on public transport just to help people get more plastered is, I'm afraid, just too bizarre for my poor little illogical mind to comprehend. Perhaps you should write to your local MP on the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 07:25 PM

It also occurs to me that if they bring in this proposed reduction, a certain proportion of drinkers will, in preference to drinking less, stay in in order to drink more. This will reduce the overall numbers of cars on the road, and consequently the overall number of accidents from all causes.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 07:33 PM

Not sure where "out here" might be in rural Ireland, but here's a website for folks to see what IS going on with the taxi industry in Ireland: http://www.taxi.ie/

Also, check out this article in the Mayo News: http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7974&Itemid=26
This article says the following about the proponents of the new legal limit (including several statistics):

FOR Noel Gibbons, the road safety officer for Mayo County Council, the proposal to reduce the blood alcohol limit (BAL) from 80mg to 50mg is a no brainer. He feels if it can save one life it should be introduced and that should outweigh any counter-argument.
Since becoming road safety officer, Noel has been to the forefront in the battle to reduce the number of deaths and accidents on our roads and he strongly welcomes the proposal by Minister Dempsey. He pointed out that the BAL for all EU countries bar Ireland, the UK and Malta was 50mg or lower and the number of road deaths in those countries has reduced since its introduction.

"Anything that will reduce the number of people killed on the roads has to be supported. If you look at the best practice used in other countries there has been a huge reduction in the number of fatalities as a result of reducing the drink driving limit. Naturally those countries had the same debate we are having when the reduced limits were introduced but they are now reaping the benefits with the reduction in deaths on the roads.

"The whole point of reducing the limit is to save lives and that should be the priority in all cases. When the random breath testing was introduced it was opposed but we are able to see the number of lives saved and this will be a follow-on from that," he said.
The common argument for opposing the reduction of the alcohol limit is the it will have a detrimental affect on rural Ireland and rural businesses. However, Mr Gibbons believes that this argument needed to be brought up on a different forum and another person who believes this argument does not wash is Susan Gray, founder of Public Against Road Carnage (PARC) - a road safety advocacy group based in Inishowen, Co Donegal who promote responsible driving. She told The Mayo News that her association was 100 per cent behind Minister Dempsey's proposal and would be very disappointed if he backed down.

"We should bring this in now and this time next year there will be people alive who would not be if it is not reduced," she said. "When you get behind the wheel you need all your concentration and if you have drink on you the chances of being involved in a collision are a lot higher. This silly argument about people living in rural Ireland being isolated and not getting to the pub is a load of codswallop. I live in a rural part of Ireland, you can't get anymore rural than Inishowen, and we make alternative arrangements about getting home from the pub, it's that simple. Most of the electorate want this lower limit and support it except for a few with a load voice. It is a sad state of affairs if it does not go through and I hope people back Minister Dempsey."

Mr Gibbons revealed that a recent survey showed that 87 per cent of Irish people consider drink driving as a shameful act. However he feels that for the number of deaths to continue to fall the attitude amongst certain drivers that one pint will do no harm has to change.
"I believe people will accept this change but they need to realise that there is no safe limit with drink driving. If you have a drink you cannot drive. Even at a quarter of the current legal limit, your vision is affected. There's a huge percentage of fatalities every year where alcohol is in the system of people involved in those fatal collisions. Lowering the drink driving limit will reduce that risk."

Ms Gray believes that there is a culture of drink driving in the country but feels reducing the limit will go a long way in changing that culture.

"When mandatory testing came in it did reduce the drink driving a lot and if we bring a lower limit that will be another step in the right direction in saving lives. That is what it is all about, nobody should be dying on our roads unnecessarily."

...Most experts suggest that it will take a pint of average strength (four per cent) beer or cider at least two hours to leave your blood stream when you stop drinking, while a 250ml glass of 15 per cent wine will take four hours.

According to safedriving.ie, an average person drinking on a typical Saturday night may at midnight have 200 mg per 100 ml of blood in their system - 2.5 times the current drink driving limit. If the person stops drinking at midnight there will still be 90 mg in their system at 7.30am and they will still be over the limit, and may only be under the current limit by 10.30am.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 08:16 PM

Another statistic from a different article: http://www.build.ie/national_news.asp?newsid=101472

IMO Former President, Dr. Declan Bedford said: "Drink driving is still a serious issue in Ireland. Research in Ireland has shown that where a blood alcohol concentration was available, one in two fatally injured drivers had a blood alcohol concentration of 50mg or higher."

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 09:32 PM

Interesting stuff, SA - thank you.

they should bring in a two teir system,so that in major cites the level can be 50mg but elsewhere it remains the same.

Call me cynical, but wouldn't people just go where they could drink more? In their cars, perhaps, as it would be further away?

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 10:49 PM

OK - so there aren't any taxis. How about the rest of it? Or is the thought of NOT drinking for one night out of the question? If so - that's a whole other discussion.


"In America we use the term "designated driver" for someone who doesn't drink and is responsible for driving folks home at the end of the evening. Is this a common practice in Ireland?"

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 10:58 PM

It certainly is in the UK Wesley, but of course there has to be a co-operating group of like-minded individuals in order to initiate such an arrangement, and that isn't always possible to achieve, for one reason or another.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 03:33 AM

ha ha,there are no taxi drivers available here,you really dont know what its like here in rural ireland,you spout off, without knowing the circumstances.
there are not enough people living here to make it worth their while,sure there are taxi drivers ibn Cork city and Bandon,and even Skibbereen,but they make more money at the nightclubs in Skibbereen,you cant get them to come out here ,take a taxi,ha ha hahaha.

In the West of Clare, as well as many other places quite remote, there's a virtual fleet of minibusses and taxis that drive people around. Groups going to cinema, theatre, nightclubs, discos and whatnot in Ennis, people going out in Lahinch, teenagers going out, drinkers going anywhere and back.

'There are no taxis here' may hold true for Ballydehob, although I doubt it, it is certainly not representative for the whole of rural Ireland.

The whole talk of 'the breakdown of the social fabric of rural Ireland' is a load of bull spread by The Vintners Federation of Ireland and politicians like Jackie Healy Rae (a pub owner himself).

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:17 AM

In general, I think "zero tolerance" laws and policies are like using a sledgehammer to swat the wasp on someone's face.    It is not the person who had a small glass of champagne to toast the bride and groom at a wedding or the person who has one glass of wine with dinner who poses a threat to traffic safety - especially if they then drive home on city streets at speeds of 25-35 mph.   

I guess if you want to bring back prohibition, I can understand the push to lower the legal alcohol limit to 0.0, but it's unrealistic to expect or demand that anyone who consumes even a small glass of wine will (or should) pay exorbitant fees for taxis, etc.    Other serious impediments to driving may be harder to detect or prove after the fact, but there's something unjust about singling out one relatively minor factor because it's easy to measure, while letting more serious things slide because they are not.   

I think the same should apply to cell phone use. I see no reason why police forces should allocate resources to scoping out cell-phone-holding drivers instead of focusing on more serious infractions (tailgating, speeding, blocking intersections, etc.).

Of course, if an accident happens, any contributing factors should be taken into account in determining who should be ticketed, etc.   But if the driver is obeying all the traffic laws and driving in a normal, cautious manner, arresting him or her for not having a zero percent alcohol level accomplishes little beyond generating revenue and possibly wreaking havoc on the life of the arrested driver.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:24 AM

Surely it's not absolutely necessary to have an alcoholic drink when you go to the pub?

Me & the gang take turns driving if we're going distance, so whoever's turn it is has soft drinks or tea/coffee etc

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:25 AM

.........or if not working next day, stay over, sleep in car, tent etc

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Smokey.
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 12:32 PM

I'd be interested to learn exactly what medication can put an illegal amount of alcohol in the bloodstream, as was suggested earlier. I know some cough remedies and mouth-washes contain small amounts of alcohol, but I've never known anyone actually drink them in pints.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: SharonA
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 02:50 PM

You're welcome, Smokey! You ask: "I'd be interested to learn exactly what medication can put an illegal amount of alcohol in the bloodstream, as was suggested earlier. I know some cough remedies and mouth-washes contain small amounts of alcohol, but I've never known anyone actually drink them in pints."

It's not "suggested", Smokey; it's a fact. Check out these articles, for starters, that give some information on the subject:

"DRUGS THAT RAISE BLOOD ALCOHOL LEVELS": http://www.healthcentral.com/static/pp/pdf_guides/alcohol-02.pdf

"Common Over-The-Counter Drugs In DUI/DWI/OUI/OWI Cases":
http://drunkdrivingdefense.com/general/non-prescription-medication-alcohol.htm

"Illegal or Prescription Drug DUI":
http://www.criminaldefenseattorneytampa.com/PracticeAreas/DrivingUndertheInfluenceDUI/IllegalorPrescriptionDrugDUI.aspx

"DRIVING UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF MEDICATION":
http://www.bayareaduidefense.com/docs/dui_medication.shtml

"DRIVING UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF PRESCRIPTION MEDICATION:
http://www.floridaduilawyerblog.com/driving_under_the_influence_of/

"DUI AND SLEEP MEDICATIONS":
http://www.floridaduilawyerblog.com/2009/10/dui_and_sleep_medications.html

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Smokey.
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 05:20 PM

Thanks again Sharon, but I didn't mean drugs which enhance the effect of alcohol when combined with it, or deliver it to the bloodstream more efficiently - That, I understand. Likewise drugs which might mimic the effect of alcohol.

I was actually referring to this statement made by Dick:

the problem with that is that you can be over the limit, without having consumed any alcohol.[medication can do this]
so that is not a good idea.,it is a litle unfair to lose your licence if you have not consumed alcohol ,do you not think?

I don't see how, if no alcohol has actually been consumed, an illegal amount can be detected in either breath or blood to secure a conviction.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: SharonA
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 05:51 PM

Smokey: Ah! I get it. You're right; I had misunderstood you.

You're also right that Schweik's statement sounds bogus. Yeah, I'd love to see him post some statistics to support that!

It should be noted, though, that one can be charged with DUI (Driving Under the Influence) when one is under the influence of medications that obviously undermine one's ability to drive. As stated in the articles I posted, a blood test or urine test would detect the presence of said medications. This is not to say that the presence of a medication in the bloodstream would necessarily be detected because of a blood-alcohol level above .08 mg.

I disagree with Schweik's assertion that it would be unfair to lose one's license because of a DUI conviction for having driven under the influence of a medication without having consumed alcohol. If a person uses such poor judgment as to drive when his faculties are noticably impaired by a medication's side effects, then obviously he needs to be taken out of the driver's seat for his own safety and the safety of others.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 05:52 PM

if the limit is zero this can be the case,in an earlier discussion[a year ago?] on a similiar subject,someone from[I think it was Norway ]mentioned this happening.
if my memory is correct the person was a teetotaller but was over the zero limit,due to medication.,if you are that bothered check it out.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Smokey.
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 06:01 PM

But you weren't referring to a zero limit, Dick, you were referring to lowering the level from 80 to 50 mg when you said that.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Smokey.
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 06:34 PM

Was the Norwegian teetotaller(?) actually convicted for drunk driving? It's rather difficult to check with so little information to go on.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 08:22 AM

but others were referring to the zero limit.
anyway the law is going to go through,so I cant waste any more time on this now ,sorry

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 06:24 PM

They were indeed Dick - I apologise for my unnecessary pedantry and I hope you aren't unduly inconvenienced by the legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 06:26 PM

but others were referring to the zero limit.

Dick, at the time you'd made your post about being "over the limit without having consumed any alcohol" (27 Oct 2009 09:33 AM), you started your post by saying "the problem with that is..." without clarifying which "that" you were referring to -- Mr Happy's suggestion of a zero limit (seconded by Villan and Peter Laban) or Richard Bridge's assertion that "small levels of alcohol improved absolute driving skills", or your own opening post about the proposed reduction of the limit to 50 mg. It was impossible to tell, at 9:33, WHICH "limit" you were talking about! If you would, please take the time to write a little more clearly, so as to avoid confusing those who read your posts. Your readers will thank you!

Glad to hear that the law is going to go through, even if you are not happy about it. It will be very interesting to see how much (or how little) the new law affects the rural areas of Ireland. In your post of 27 Oct 2009 02:07 PM, you expressed concern that "it will lead to further rural isolation, possibly more rural suicides in isolated communities"; we shall see whether the suicide rate rises, but I have my doubts.

What concerns me is the attitude expressed here, by you and others, that drinking and driving is no big deal as long as one's blood-alcohol level is below the legal limit. That is some seriously dangerous thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 06:57 PM

I'd foolishly assumed Dick was referring to his own post, for some reason..

I agree with your last point, Sharon. The problem is, it doesn't take much alcohol at all to produce seriously dangerous thinking. At a guess, it was a 'regular drinker' who suggested the 80mg limit in the first place. I'll be glad when they reduce the level in the UK. I think the level should probably be something like 5mg, to be practical. We wouldn't want to go upsetting Norwegian teetotallers..

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 09:16 PM

carry on, reduce the limit to zero.
we will then see whether people stop killing others on the road.
I dont think so,we will still see people tailgating, driving far too fast for the road conditions etc etc etc,what will you do then.
why not ban motor vehicles?but before that happens can we have a proper train system,thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 09:58 PM

No-one said it would prevent all the unrelated accidents - there are many road safety issues which need to be addressed, but they can only be addressed one at a time, and alcohol is one of the biggest factors as far as I'm aware. It isn't as though all the other factors are being ignored, after all.

I agree that public transport these days leaves a lot to be desired and the other problem is that there are too many cars on the road. Personally I think raising the driving age to about 25 would have a large effect on overall safety.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 12:09 PM

The rationale for defending alcohol as being not important in drunk driving accidents is as specious as it can get.

The logical fallacy here of course is that claiming that there are other things that are worse.
This doesn't minimize the detriment of alcohol use in driving.

The solution is simple. Don't drink and drive. Futzing with the drink level is like deciding how much explosive material to put into a bomb.

Drink and driving is playing with fire.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 08:57 AM

article in sunday times today.TD MAKES HIS PINT IN DRIVING TEST.From The Sunday Times
November 8, 2009
TD makes his pint in driving test
Mark Tighe

    *



Mattie McGrath became an international laughing stock when he suggested that a pint could improve the performance of some nervous drivers.

However, a test on one of his Fianna Fail colleagues concluded that his responses on a driving simulator improved after consuming two pints of beer. Bobby Aylward, a TD for Carlow-Kilkenny, said his better reaction times with a blood alcohol content (BAC) of 52mg, which is to be outlawed by Noel Dempsey, the transport minister, showed that "a social drink has no adverse reaction on rural people driving home".

Aylward is among the Fianna Fail backbenchers lobbying for a removal of the "two strikes and you're out" rule in the new Road Traffic Bill for those caught with a BAC between 50mg and 80mg.

Dempsey bowed to pressure to bring the penalty for first offenders down to three points, but his backbenchers say they did not know the punishment for a second offence in the 50mg-80mg range was a one-year ban from driving. "If a person is caught in that range again their penalty points should amalgamate as they do for speeding," said Aylward. "I don't think a ban for a second offence is fair."
Related Links

    * Aylward: My one for the road that said it all

"It has to be an amalgamation [of points]," said McGrath. "The fat lady hasn't sung yet. The bill was rushed through."
   Here is another point,Coffee is a stimulant,it can be very useful in keeping people awake whilst driving, however I find if I drink too much of it,my driving deteriorates.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 09:31 AM

having now read the article in full,the new breathalysers cannot[for various reasons] be introduced till 2011.
if people dont like Irish driving and Irish Law,there is nothing to stop them moving elsewhere.
I am happy to stay here,and when the new law comes in 2011,I will conform to the new limits.I wonder how many pubs[in rural Ireland] will be left after 2011,apparantly 1000 pubs have closed in the last three years
I have been driving for 40 years ,I have never been involved in an accident caused by my drinking or anyone elses .
I did once report to the police a drunken driver who was driving all over the road,but this was not someone who had had two pints in two hours ,but someone who was weaving across the road from one side to the other.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: gnu
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 09:38 AM

Sorry... this is only a test. ?

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Smokey.
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 06:47 PM

Dick, just because one driver managed to drive ok after two pints on one occasion doesn't mean it's safe to assume everyone can do it anytime. The law has to be such that it can apply to anyone, anytime. Two pints will affect a teetotaller significantly more than it would an alcoholic, for example. I think that point has already been adequately covered, but for a person to be unaffected by two pints, they would have to have previously built up quite a strong resistance to the effect of alcohol. If they actually need that amount to adjust their reactions etc. to a 'normal' level, they are probably alcoholics, or at least well on the way to being so, depending on one's definition.

Stringsinger is absolutely right: 'Don't drink and drive'. It's a crying shame we even need a law to enforce what should be no more than basic common sense.

If your own driving suffers when you drink coffee, then my advice would be not to do it, even if it's only for your own sake.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Wesley S
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:14 PM

"I wonder how many pubs[in rural Ireland] will be left after 2011,apparantly 1000 pubs have closed in the last three years"

If the new laws are the cause of it then maybe those pubs need to close. If they count on customers being able to drink to excess and then drive afterward I won't shead a tear at their passing.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 03:16 AM

Another thing that is rarely mentioned in the debate about the loss of rural pubs is the fact a lot of them are closing because their owners are retiring. Most rural pubs are small and have never been a full income raising business, they often were an extra, an aside to having a farm, working for eircom, having a grocery business (that side went belly up with EU regulations) or running a funeral home.

Children of the retiring owners with full time jobs and don't feel like entering a commitment that will tie them up for the night or weekend.

Ofcourse big urban pubs buying up licences, at some point for €100K-180K made for a nice pension fund for retiring owners. Most,probably all, rural pubs closing in the West Clare area that I know of followed the scenario of selling the licence for major money.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 06:35 PM

Interesting point, PL, I didn't realise that. In a way, it's a great shame - the end of an era, even. The smaller, outlying pubs are disappearing in the UK too, faster than in Ireland I think, but that seems to be more to do with prices, regulations, and of course the smoking ban, being the last twist of the knife. All of which seems to be suiting the brewers and distillers, who are selling more booze than ever. If people are going to be irresponsible with alcohol though, I'd rather they did it at home than inflict it on the rest of us. Unfortunately that could lead to, or exacerbate, another set of problems of a more personal/domestic than social nature. In principle I don't believe in banning anything, but alcohol should be treated with a great deal more respect than we are generally conditioned to give it.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 08:12 AM

the new equipment will cost an estimated 800,thousand euros.
meanwhile unemployment benefit for a single person has been cut from 200 a week to 100.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 08:29 AM

If your own driving suffers when you drink coffee, then my advice would be not to do it, even if it's only for your own sake.[quote]
no,it keeps me awake, and keepsme alive and others
I said if I drink too much of it my driving deteriorates,therfore I treat it with respect,as I do alcohol, ALCOHOL two pints max in two hours,and then I leave it at least half an hour [switching to water] before I drive.
I welcome GUINNESS Introducing a 2.8 per cent beer.
800 thousand euros,on something whose necessity has not been statistically proven,not quite as daft as the millions wasted on electronic voting machines,but pretty stupid in these economically straitened times,meanwhile raw sewage is pumped into Schull harbour,quite frankly I would prefer that 800 thousand euros be spent on a sewage treatment plant for Schull.
more people drinking at home will result possibly in more domestic violence.
when the man is absent, the partners have a break from each other, why dont they divorce you ask?
religious pressure .

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 08:49 AM

There are lots of ways in which people can be in less than perfect nick for driving. Too tired, too fat, too stressed, bad cold, lost, row with wife or hubby, distracted by kids, lighting a fag, fiddling with a CD, unwrapping a Werther's Original. We're only human. But booze is in the category of things we have total control of. You don't have to drink, you don't have to use your phone, you don't have to try to drink coffee at the wheel, you don't have to play the harmonica whilst driving. We inveterate boozers can't complain if the limit is brought down. Personally, I think a zero limit would be too repressive. It's two in the afternoon now the night after I had a few pints. Am I alcohol-free yet? God knows. Probably. I think I might be too scared ever to get in my car.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 09:31 AM

The bottom line is this.

No matter where the limit is placed, the inveterate drink driver will continue on his course to self immolation, and of course, being a jolly, gregarious sort of chap, he will probably take a few others with him.

Limits only work on those who already have sufficient sense of responsibility to control their actions without legal constraint.

Limits, in point of fact, serve only one purpose, and that is to punish those who have already offended.

What is needed is to fit all cars with the Breath Alcohol Immobiliser, which prevents the engine starting unless the driver can blow "clear", and can also be pre-set to demand random tests to catch anybody who does his boozing on the fly. As I understand it, the machine could render drink driving extinct, for a comparatively small cost.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 10:29 AM

I suppose the machine could tell who was blowing into it as well. I can imagine a little booth at the exit of pub car-parks with teetotallers offering a car mobiliser service for a couple of quid a puff.
Part of the rationale for setting limits is to keep the issue to the fore in the minds of the public. That and some hard-hitting education and proper punishments for offenders. The idea is to change people's minds about drink-driving. Repressive, intrusive measures will never do that - they just make people more resourceful at getting round them and make them hate the authorities all the more.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 12:34 PM

good idea, Don.
but the government wouldnt like it because they would be deprived of revenue.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 01:28 PM

I said if I drink too much of it my driving deteriorates,therfore I treat it with respect,as I do alcohol, ALCOHOL two pints max in two hours,and then I leave it at least half an hour [switching to water] before I drive.

With respect, Dick, this isn't actually about you, it's about everyone who drives and/or drinks. No-one is accusing you of anything personally, but whatever rules we have need to be applicable to anyone, anywhere, any time. Just because you have been lucky or careful so far doesn't mean you are infallible or invincible, and it certainly doesn't mean everyone else is.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 07:53 PM

"...when the man is absent, the partners have a break from each other..."

Holy cannoli. There are some truly inane excuses for drinking and driving posted on this thread, but this one tops the list. What kind of a "break" does the woman in this partnership get when she's stuck at home while her man takes the car out to go drinking? ...when her man comes home boozed up and ready to fight with her? ...when her man doesn't come home because he's been arrested for drinking-and-driving or, worse, when he has an accident with the car and gets himself and/or someone else killed?

Good grief, Schweik. You're scraping the bottom of the barrel of excuses this time.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 08:11 PM

""I suppose the machine could tell who was blowing into it as well. I can imagine a little booth at the exit of pub car-parks with teetotallers offering a car mobiliser service for a couple of quid a puff.""

Yes Steve. As it happens the manufacturers state that the machine, properly programmed, can indeed tell who the driver is. I don't profess to know how, but this IS the claim they make.

In any case the random tests would soon expose any cheats, and let's face it, if a sober person travels in the car to pass the tests, he/she would logically insist on saving his/her life by driving the darn thing.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: proposed alteration to drink driving level
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 08:14 PM

""good idea, Don.
but the government wouldnt like it because they would be deprived of revenue.""

Not MY idea Dick.

Much cleverer folk than I have already fitted it to some cars, and it WORKS!

Don T.