BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 02:06 PM

It is said that Jean Harlow once addressed Margot Asquith as "Mar-gott". 'No dear,' she replied; 'the t is silent — as in Harlow.'

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Mr Happy
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 08:07 PM

............& the festive season fast approaching, there'll be more renditions of strangulated Latin carollers 'In eggshells is day-o [daylight come & me wan' go home!!]'!!?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: GUEST,AndyC
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 04:14 PM

If you study Welsh you'll find that 'ph' and 'th' are still regarded as single characters in their own right, like in the original Greek. As are 'll' and 'rh' for example. So 'Rhyl' is a three-letter word, not four letters, and you would look it up under 'Rh' in the dictionary, not under 'R'.

'Th' in Welsh is only ever 'soft' (as in 'think') rather than as in 'this'.

Have you noticed as well that a lot of people will naturally say 'dd' rather than 'th' when it's in the middle of a word - for example 'brudder' not 'brother'.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 08:18 PM

There are two main problems with English orthography.

Firstly, that various spelling systems have been adopted over the centuries, without ever superceding their predecessors, and secondly, that English pronunciation has changed dramatically since it became (more or less) standardised.

As a result, although night may still be pronounced as written (mainly in Scotland), the gh has vanished completely in most the Anglophone world, while the i has turned into ai.

Change, of course continues, most noticably in London, where are white and wait are homophones, though still with different initial consonants and vowels in much of the rest of the English speaking world. In fact, one of the biggest problems with spelling reform is that it will never do more than reflect a snapshot of one local dialect at a limited point in time, unless we take a similar attitude to Welsh and do away with standardised spelling. Is "I am" in Welsh "dach i" "dech i" "dych i" or "ydych i"? (rhetorical question). The fact that there was no universal standard orthography in the 16th century means that for a linguist, the variant spelling used by Mary Stuart and Elizabeth Tudor in their letters can tell us a lot about the development of the different varieties of English at that time.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 06:12 PM

Man: Doctor, I'm having real trouble pronouncing my Fs and THs!

Doctor: You can't say fairer than that then!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 04:39 PM

The oiks pronounce th as f in parts of London!

In Croydon, trawler - a difficult one for W people, would be pronounced trawlar!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 06:43 PM

My apolgies. "I am" in Welsh is of course "dw i". I meant "you are".

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Slag
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 07:42 PM

Name your Shibboleth (or that Sibboleth?). I've always liked phthalo blue (or bleu) as a color but someone above already beat mi two the punch wif phenolphthalein whitch is the chemical carrier for the stayne.

The fox walks on rocks,
Hunting Aux as does the soaring hawks.

copyright 2002

I was surprised when I met Father Nick Meletis in Bakersfield California and heard the Greek language spoken correctly for the first time. Wow! the "p" in psi is actually pronounced as are all the consonants, contrary to popular English cum American pronunciations.

The fact that English language is so adept at picking up bits of other languages on a wholesale basis means that it also picks up some of the rules of foreign grammar and spelling.   Have you ever heard the Pidgin (or is that "piggon"?) English? Now THERE is a wonder to behold!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 09:32 PM

Yes, "pidgen" is the correct spelling.

But which pidgin English? There are a number of them, reflecting the area in which they arose.   And "pidgin" doesn't necessarily call for the word "English".   There are pidgins from German, French, and on and on.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 06:03 AM

Personally, I don't have time for this phuckin' shit.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 08:07 AM

A pidgin is a mixture of two or more languages,developed to aid communication. It is therefore not a first language or a mother tongue.
When a pidgin becomes indigenous to community and becomes a mother tongue it is known as a creole or patois.....and may contribute to subsequent pidgins.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 09:50 AM

I'm embarrassed. I said, Yes, "pidgen" is the correct spelling.

That's wrong. Should be "pidgin". And I didn't even follow my own erroneous spelling in the rest of my post!

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 01:44 PM

Dave- Never apologize. Repeat and repeat and beat your opponent down
(From my MS, "The Successful Politician").

Moreover, the Oxford English Dictionary gives both spellings in bold type. In other words, pigeon is also correct but less popular.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Rowan
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 06:49 PM

Are messages in pidgin ever sent by pigeon post?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Slag
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 10:57 PM

Pigeon, coo coo   cool!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 10:58 AM

Also 'ch'

Loch ['Lotch'?]

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:00 AM

............'gh' as in 'Lough'

'Luff'?

'Louge'?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 01:18 PM

Hough- pronounced 'huff' by a friend.
Lough- loch, but as a surname, loch, lowe, loff, law and etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 01:20 PM

An Edinburgh banker of distant relation, named Gough, pronounced the name 'Gow'.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 02:12 PM

The wind was rough
And cold and blough.
She kept her hands
Inside her mough.

===============================================================

"Gilead then cut Ephraim off from the fords of the Jordan, and whenever Ephraimite fugitives said, 'Let me cross,' the men of Gilead would ask, 'Are you an Ephraimite?' If he said, 'No,' they then said, 'Very well, say Shibboleth.' If anyone said, 'Sibboleth', because he could not pronounce it, then they would seize him and kill him by the fords of the Jordan. Forty-two thousand Ephraimites fell on this occasion."

– Judges 12:5-6, NJB

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Slag
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 05:44 PM

Thanks Bill_D. I knew someone (probably you) would pick up on the reference. This is a discussion that has been going on for a long, long time; sometimes with a more serious consequence.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 08:07 PM

If anyone said "Sibboleth" they probably killed him because they thought he was Basil Fawlty.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 08:23 PM

It's interesting..(at least I thought so)... that I learned about Sibboleth from Ripley's Believe it or Not about 1953...

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Slag
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:51 PM

Thilly Thavage!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:50 AM

The study of Ethics might help.

Better than Suthics, or Middlethics.

Then there's Edward Windsor, Earl of Wethics.

I'll get me Barbour . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:44 AM

"Firthst, I am happy. For I am to marry the fair Melitha. Then, I am furiouth. Becauthe I dethpise "THE THHHHCARLET PU-PU-PUMPERNICKEL!!!"

"Thufferin' Thuccotash!" "I tawt I taw a Tweety Bird!"

From
Sylvester the cat cartoon (Tweetie)

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:51 AM

I left my truck in Tuktoyaktuk

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 10:05 AM

........high on a hill, it calls to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 10:55 AM

Look on the bright side. In Wales we have words starting with 'ngh'

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 12:50 PM

"..words starting with 'ngh'." ...with hard to pronounce stuff in the middle.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:51 PM

"..words starting with 'ngh'." but only because they've been modified by the previous word, and the hard to pronounce stuff in the middle is only is only hard to pronounce if you try to pronounce it in English.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 08:38 AM

The ruination of the English language by working class oiks is being totally ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 05:42 AM

'ruination' anagramatised gives 'urination'!!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 11:24 AM

Somebody's taking the piss!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: chazkratz
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 02:09 PM

Ai'm geting uh hedeik--meibi ai'v gat uh bluhdklought.

Note: How can one type phonetically without a schwa? Or a thorn, for that matter? And do semanticists pronounce the th in thorn voiced or unvoiced? And where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?

Charles

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 05:29 PM

And you can't write my name without a yogh!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 06:28 AM

MacKen3ie?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 06:31 AM

Close, John

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 06:42 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogh

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:20 AM

Of course, Tom Lehrer got it wrong. The 3 is not silent.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:26 AM

.............as in the fatuous US TV prog; 'Numb3rs' - more dumbing down?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 11:27 AM

MacKenȝie

(alt-541)

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 11:36 AM

Not on my keyboard. I get ¡ê

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 04:41 PM

phuck, those typos

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:59 PM

Nothing to do with oiks, that f & v for unvoiced and voiced th. Goes back to the Dark Ages. A village called Finglesham (shwa in ham) is actually derived from "thengel" which was a word for some sort of nobility. So someone told the scribes a th word with an f in it.

Also oik is an odd word - no-one seems to know the origin. I have a hypothesis though, that it was coined by public school classicists in the RAF from the Spartan word perioikoi (sp?) which meant the non-fighting allies around the city, on whose work the Spartan elite depended. The meaning and the attitude are the same, but the word has been shortened inappropriately - peri would better fit than the oik component which meant the central household.

Using the word in contempt of others is not fitting unless you are of a trained elite like the Spartans or the Few.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:40 PM

Oick, oik, hoick, oickman, a deprecatory schoolboy term for a student at another school, by extension an obnoxious person, a labourer or other low-class individual, a 'clot,' doesn't appear in print before 1925 (Oxford English Dictionary).
Dict. Bootham Slang 1925.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Rowan
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:16 PM

OIC (pronounced the same as "oik" or "oick") is also the acronym of Officer in Charge, the official title of those in charge of Australian Antarctic bases until a decade or so ago; the OIC's donga (residence) was known as "The Oikery", partly for its euphonics and probably because of the research on penguin rookeries.

But now such OICs are called (officially) Station Leaders.

Cheers, Rowan