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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Feb 14 - 02:49 PM Jim, the shell scandal was exposed by The Daily Mail. Programme 2, 7 minutes, Paxman to camera, "It (Daily Mail) alleged that the British Government had sent the wrong kind of shells to the Western Front and thereby caused the death of British servicemen." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Feb 14 - 03:42 PM programme 2, 7 minutes in. Paxman voice over, The patriotic Daily Mail decided it was time to break ranks, launching a sensational attack on the War Secretary, Lord Kitchener himself. Paxman to camera, On may the 21st 1915, a fortnight after the Lusitania, The Daily Mail published an editorial, "THE TRAGEDY OF THE SHELLS LORD KITCHENER'S GRAVE ERROR." (The headings were shown in capitals) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Feb 14 - 02:29 AM You repeat your ridiculous claim that the army had control of the press! They had none. Just another of your made up fantasies. Read my posts of yesterday, and your own link. Here is another extract, "Newspaper publicity was also critical of Kitchener's call for volunteers for the army." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Teribus Date: 12 Feb 14 - 03:00 AM The other thing regarding the shell scandal that Christmas has not mentioned of course is the fact that Lord Northcliffe owner of both The Times and the Daily Mail went after and singled out Kitchener with such vigour was because he held Kitchener directly responsible for the death of his nephew. Ultimately Northcliffe was told to back off by the War Cabinet. In all this mud-slinging Northcliffe was aided and abetted by General French, commander of the BEF who was involved in his own private pissing contest with Kitchener, with the end result that the problems being faced were totally misrepresented to the public by the press (Same thing was done by the Press with regard to WMD and Iraq in 2002 and 2003) - the problem in 1915 was not that the army did not have enough shells, the problem was that the army did not have enough of the right type of shell for offensive operations. If you have an army establishment of 247,000 regulars and 145,000 reserves then you obviously do not have munitions manufacturers churning out munitions for a force five times that size (Ultimately eight times that size) - something our current government has chosen to conveniently forget, and they too will be caught out in the same way - such facilities and capabilities have to be built from scratch and that takes time, it was therefore perfectly logical and reasonable that a separate Government department was set up to look after this problem - Ministry of Munitions - It remained active from 25th May 1915 to the 21st March 1921. So let's see, in 1914 a tiny armed force was sent to France, where they did not select what battles they had to fight as the initiative lay with the much larger German armies who were attacking them. Quite contrary to what most "experts" at the time believed, that tiny armed force that consisted of 80,000 men, very skillfully managed to delay the advance of the Germans and remain intact as a fighting force much in the same way that Wellington kept his tiny force alive in Portugal and Spain as a force in being. During those early encounters in Belgium and France the weaknesses in the nature of Britain's field artillery were not made evident as at the time they were exactly what was needed to fight a series of highly mobile rearguard actions in retreat. The French contribution to the First Battle of the Marne, where the Schlieffen Plan was defeated, completely dwarfed the British (39 French Divisions to 6 British) so it was not until 1915, when the British went over onto the offensive that anything was seen to be wrong. By 1916 there was no shortage of shells and no shortage of guns for the now much expanded British Army, there were problems with quality control and fuses but they were quickly identified and rectified. The Battles of the Somme and Verdun although costly ended all hope the Germans ever had of achieving a victory on the Western Front. Fast forward to March 1918 and you see how "on-top-of-things" the Ministry of Munitions had become: 21st March 1918 to 18th July 1918 - German Spring Offensive: The Germans last gasp attempt in the West, the British lost 1,300 artillery pieces and 200 tanks - and didn't even notice the loss as they were all replaced within a month without having to reduce the level of reserves held. That capability then enabled the launch of what is known as "The 100 Days Offensive" by British, Belgian, American and French troops that finally ended the fighting on the western front. It started on the 8th August 1918, only 21 days after the end of the largest German offensive of the war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Feb 14 - 04:41 AM "Just another of your made up fantasies." Your an arsehole Keith You said yourself that all countries maintain a control on what is said during wars. The British Government attempted to impose total control on what was made public by law, abandoned the idea and put information control in the hands of the military - everything that published had their blessing. Coupled with the fact that the popular press in its entirety supported the war and imposed a strict self-censorship of what was published, the public got to know only what the Government wanted them to know - all on record if you ever bothered to read a book. Your Daily Mail red-herring is exactly as I described - go and read it up. This evasive nonsense reall has gone far enough as far as I'm concerned. You have presented an old Empire Days analysis of the war pontificating on and denying many of its aspects that are established fact. You have surrounded yourself with a team of mythical historical fairies who have never commented on, let alone supported the neanderthal views you have put forward. You have lied about doing so and have retreated to three point which you claim to be the only things you put forward. Whenever you are stymied, you scurry behind your phantom friends - this is now the only argument you ever have on all subjects you involve yourself in - "they said it first, I'm only the messenger" - utter and transparent bollocks. You have been presented with three excellent programmes on te war - each of them cutting the legs from under your case, and have the temerity to claim they support your case. You have no support - you never had - your war-gaming, gun-nut friend can ionly be considered a liability - he'll be showing us his gun next - he's done that before!! Yo are a meglomanic nut who has openly declared himself to be "infallible" The war has been shown to have been little more than a bloody fight between acquisitive powerful Empires - the fact that their leaders were related makes it a family squabble using the youth of Europe as pawns in their bloody game. Whoever started it (no argument there) it was ill-conceived, prematurely entered into and badly executed (execution being the operative word as afar as the millions of young men who were sacrificed). Those who sent those lads to war lied to them to get them to join up, and when that ceased to work, gave them no alternative but to go. At home, as far as the better-off were concerned, life went on as normal. The families of those who fought were exploited - many of them became homeless because of that exploitation. On the front, military advances were planned on calculations of how many lives could be sacrificed. Dedicated soldiers, some decorated war-heroes who became disillusioned were punished for expressing their views - Sassoon was declared mad by the military for voicing what is now an accepted fact. You have referred to him and others who were there as "liars" - you have challenged accepted history of the entire war on the basis of a few cut-'n-pastes on a handful of specific subjects - you have never once given anything from your own claimed "lifelong study" - not once. You appear never to have read a book - on the war - on anything - all cut-'n-pastes - Ireland, Palestine, Travellers, British Fascism, Syria, Islamic "implants"... all cut-'n-pastes. You appear not even to have watched the tree programmes - everything you have put out seems to have come from the BBC handout "Paxman to camera" "Infallible my arseum" All any of us has got from our indulging you in your self-obsession is the satisfaction of knowing that nobody takes you seriously nor ever will again after your recent performances. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Feb 14 - 04:41 AM "Just another of your made up fantasies." Your an arsehole Keith You said yourself that all countries maintain a control on what is said during wars. The British Government attempted to impose total control on what was made public by law, abandoned the idea and put information control in the hands of the military - everything that published had their blessing. Coupled with the fact that the popular press in its entirety supported the war and imposed a strict self-censorship of what was published, the public got to know only what the Government wanted them to know - all on record if you ever bothered to read a book. Your Daily Mail red-herring is exactly as I described - go and read it up. This evasive nonsense reall has gone far enough as far as I'm concerned. You have presented an old Empire Days analysis of the war pontificating on and denying many of its aspects that are established fact. You have surrounded yourself with a team of mythical historical fairies who have never commented on, let alone supported the neanderthal views you have put forward. You have lied about doing so and have retreated to three point which you claim to be the only things you put forward. Whenever you are stymied, you scurry behind your phantom friends - this is now the only argument you ever have on all subjects you involve yourself in - "they said it first, I'm only the messenger" - utter and transparent bollocks. You have been presented with three excellent programmes on te war - each of them cutting the legs from under your case, and have the temerity to claim they support your case. You have no support - you never had - your war-gaming, gun-nut friend can ionly be considered a liability - he'll be showing us his gun next - he's done that before!! Yo are a meglomanic nut who has openly declared himself to be "infallible" The war has been shown to have been little more than a bloody fight between acquisitive powerful Empires - the fact that their leaders were related makes it a family squabble using the youth of Europe as pawns in their bloody game. Whoever started it (no argument there) it was ill-conceived, prematurely entered into and badly executed (execution being the operative word as afar as the millions of young men who were sacrificed). Those who sent those lads to war lied to them to get them to join up, and when that ceased to work, gave them no alternative but to go. At home, as far as the better-off were concerned, life went on as normal. The families of those who fought were exploited - many of them became homeless because of that exploitation. On the front, military advances were planned on calculations of how many lives could be sacrificed. Dedicated soldiers, some decorated war-heroes who became disillusioned were punished for expressing their views - Sassoon was declared mad by the military for voicing what is now an accepted fact. You have referred to him and others who were there as "liars" - you have challenged accepted history of the entire war on the basis of a few cut-'n-pastes on a handful of specific subjects - you have never once given anything from your own claimed "lifelong study" - not once. You appear never to have read a book - on the war - on anything - all cut-'n-pastes - Ireland, Palestine, Travellers, British Fascism, Syria, Islamic "implants"... all cut-'n-pastes. You appear not even to have watched the tree programmes - everything you have put out seems to have come from the BBC handout "Paxman to camera" "Infallible my arseum" All any of us has got from our indulging you in your self-obsession is the satisfaction of knowing that nobody takes you seriously nor ever will again after your recent performances. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Feb 14 - 06:30 AM The British Government attempted to impose total control on what was made public by law, abandoned the idea and put information control in the hands of the military - everything that published had their blessing. Completely untrue. Once again you, and Greg and all the creepy guests, are wrong and I am right. The military had absolutely no control over the press. More made up shit from the master! There was no scrutiny before publication. Papers could submit stuff for scrutiny, but did not have to. If the government believed the law to have been broken they would have to prove it in court, and that never happened. The press could and did launch fierce attacks on government and policy. Proof of all that is in THE LINK THAT YOU PROVIDED! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Feb 14 - 06:51 AM "Completely untrue." You've had the facts of the situation - you've even had your own quote of all countries exercising press restrictions during wartime. You've had your own "ghost army" of fistorians, you've had your totally lack of knowledge your history of lying and distorting, the accepted history of the war, the inept leadership, the racketeering, the brutal indifference of those who stayed behind and issued orders ineptly, you've had the treatment of those who stepped out of line, the dishonest recruiting campaign, the farcical mistakes that cost mens lives, you've had, the Imperialist nature of the war.... now you are desperately hanging on one issue in the hope of saving face. No more for me - as far as you're concerned, the war is over. By the way, why not ask your fick mate if he does paintball war-game week-ends - you might get together, I have no doubt you both have camouflage gear hanging up in he wardrobe Go away Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Feb 14 - 07:31 AM You've had the facts of the situation Yes, and they support me not you. Your own link proved you wrong on censorship. You made up the ludicrous claim of military press control. You can find not one single living historian who supports any of the myths about the war that you believe. You lose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Musket Date: 12 Feb 14 - 07:53 AM Keith.. Do you have a set of templates and you just change the name of the person who say is wrong on the basis you are right? I used to make my sons sit on the naughty step if they ever argued on such a basis. Luckily, it rarely happened as they were brought up well adjusted. You come over as such as spoilt brat at times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Feb 14 - 08:24 AM I get tired of me being right all the time too. Sorry. Why not put up some historians with different views to mine? That would teach me a lesson in humility. Do it for Jim. Do it for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Teribus Date: 12 Feb 14 - 08:41 AM "You've had the facts of the situation" - quoth Jim Carroll None from you Christmas, all you have offered has been highly inaccurate and ill-informed opinion. You have offered no facts at all, so far in this exchange the only contributors who have offered fact have been Keith and myself and I note that you have been unable to challenge any of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Musket Date: 12 Feb 14 - 08:50 AM I love debate. It is the art of putting forward high integrity facts and comparing them to everybody else's lies and half truths borne of ignorance. zzzzz Not only Keith but even Terrible Us shoulders the burden of being right all the time whilst nobody else understands. It must be very hard to be so fucking clever. I keep getting an image in my head of a chimps tea party. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Feb 14 - 09:08 AM It must be very hard to be so fucking clever. No. Easy. It just involved accepting that you do not know everything, and being prepared to learn from people with real knowledge, in this case historians. Your immense ego and arrogance made you think you knew more than them! "Those historians should know better" you said. Of course they should Musket. Don't they know what an important person you are? You deserve this humiliation and I am treasuring it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Teribus Date: 12 Feb 14 - 09:43 AM That you making an arse of yourself again Musket. Nothing to contribute to the discussion I note. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Teribus Date: 13 Feb 14 - 03:47 AM I've been watching the original 1964 BBC series "The Great War" Episodes 1 to 6 cover the period under discussion. One great advantage of this documentary series is that you have lots of interviews given by people who were there. By and large they back Keith's three contentions. On the battles of Mons, Le Cateau, the Marne and Ysers Christmas would be greatly surprised by the comments made by the British soldiers who took part in all those actions (All terrible, blunders and defeats according to Christmas - There again it would not be the first time that he has categorically stated that he knew better than the people who were there). After being engaged and having been forced into a fighting retreat at Mons and at Le Cateau, according to those who actually fought in those battles, on being ordered to halt to turn and advance and attack the German Army the uplift in morale and general attitude throughout the BEF was massive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Teribus Date: 14 Feb 14 - 03:34 AM All Quiet on the Western Front. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Feb 14 - 03:51 AM BBC 2 days ago. "As nations gear up to mark 100 years since the start of World War One, academic argument still rages over which country was to blame for the conflict. Here 10 leading historians give their opinion." (First up, Max Hastings) If you look very carefully, Britain is mentioned once by one. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26048324 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Feb 14 - 06:09 AM All that denigration of Hastings. It was just the trilling of a couple of vacuous leftie airheads. Laughable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Feb 14 - 01:56 AM Jim on Israel thread. "Maybe someone can produce a list of historians that can prove they didn't do it?" No, but I can provide a comprehensive list of those who share my views on this, and you can find not one. Greg on Israel thread, "I'm sure Keith will assert that ALL historians assert they didn't do it - whatever it was." ALL historians agree with me on this Greg. That is why none of you muppets could produce a single one in three months of frantic searching. Either all the historians a wrong, OR YOU ARE. Musket on the Militant Atheist thread, "You have zero credibility in your WW1 outpourings, and by hanging onto a couple of radical opinions of journalists and the odd historian, you shout down any attempt by anybody to proffer the truth. " I quote historians, who have rather more credibility than a bunch of leftie air heads. They are all renowned, acclaimed historians, including Hastings who tops that international BBC list of ten "leading historians." (I treasure your claim that everything on the BBC History site was "Jackanory"!!) Not one historian can be found who believes your deluded leftie myths. Do not feel shouted down by us Muppet. Feel free to "proffer the truth" but with evidence and not just your worthless word please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Feb 14 - 02:05 AM Musket on Dawin's Witness thread. "Quite a few instances on this thread of people saying something is because they say it is." On this thread too! You and your mates. No evidence, no History, just your worthless beliefs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Feb 14 - 02:36 AM Interesting sounding exhibition Jim Carroll WHY SHOULD I SHOOT A MAN I NEVER KNEW, WHOSE LANGUAGE I COULDN'T SPEAK? Sebastian Faulks, whose novels have brought the horror of the First World War to a new generation, on the greatest slaughterhouse in history Our memory of the First World War - the Great War - has always been a problem. Look at the events that surrounded the death at the age of 111 of the so-called "last fighting Tommy", Harry Patch, in 2009. Patch saw action for three months, from June to September 1917, before being wounded at the Battle of Passchendaele, taken out of the line and shipped back to England in December. He believed war was "organised murder". He said in 2005: "Why should the g British Government call me up and take me t J out to a battlefield to shoot a man I never knew, whose language I couldn't speak? AO |?| those lives lost for a war finished over a table. Now what is the sense in that?" Yet towards the end of his life, two poets laureate wrote poems for him; Bristol University awarded him an honorary degree; ||§ he was given the freedom of the city of Wells; Radiohead composed a song for him; Bloomsbury published a biography of him; he was honoured by the French and Belgian Governments; he had a racehorse named after him; his funeral was held in Wells Cathedral; the Prince of Wales paid tribute. All this not for a military exemplar, but for someone who believed that war is the "condoned slaughter of human beings" that "isn't worth one life". For more than 80 years, Harry Patch was a plumber; he then lived in retirement in Bristol. During this time, no one interviewed him about the Great War and he didn't talk about it. He was clearly a much liked man; but the excessive attention paid to his death seemed to be motivated in part by a sense of guilt about our collective failure to inquire into the nature of that holocaust. Could making a fuss of one reluctant Lewis gunner with three months' active service to his credit somehow make up for the fact that for decades we had failed to grasp the enormity of what took place, or extend to those who fought in the war the compassion and curiosity that was their due? There are some good reasons why remembering has been so difficult First among these is that those in a position to remember -the servicemen - largely chose not to. Imagine. You leave your factory, office or farm because your country is at war and you want to "do your bit". Other chaps are going, too - old schoolmates, work colleagues. Training is brief and outdated, with mounted cavalry expected to be decisive. Then you find yourself in the greatest slaughterhouse in history, where almost ten million men will be exterminated by mounted machine guns and tens of millions more will be maimed, crippled or wounded. You will hear that three empires have collapsed as you build your makeshift home in mud and excrement and body parts. And when you return home, on leave, wounded or, with luck, demobilised in 1918, you will find that people have little idea of what you have endured, and not much interest in it, either. They have their lives to get on with; and they urge you to do likewise. How, then, would you put into words the experiences that no human being before you had undergone? The answer is that few men tried. "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent," as Ludwig Wittgenstein, a much decorated veteran of the Russian front, fighting for Austria-Hungary, remarked. Wittgenstein may have had a philosophical axiom in mind, but his was the approach adopted in practical terms by most soldiers of modest education. The poetry that was written at the time did go some way to filling the silence. Many of the most memorable poems have something aggressively journalistic about them, as they attempt to expose the "old lie" that it is a fine thing to die for one's country by counter-proposing a harshly coloured picture of the reality of fighting; Wilfred Owen threw out almost all he knew of poetic diction to find a new language for subjects not previously deemed "poetic". His best poems, however, are to some extent distress signals, and by their nature lack perspective (Owen was killed shortly before the Armistice). The memoirs that emerged in the late Twenties had gained some distance, but most have an officer-class irony and are still numb with the sense of a trauma that has not been assimilated. The war novels of the period are largely reworkings of personal experience, although in the best of them, such as Frederic Manning's The Middle Parts of Fortune (1929), there is a sense of the material starting to be shaped. The theatres of the Great War were all overseas; there were no battles in this country, and that fact may also have contributed to our difficulties with memory. A "foreign" war -even one that has personally affected almost every family in the country - is in some ways easier to forget. There was no eight-month siege of Dundee, no 60,000 casualties in a single day at Gloucester. In France, it was natural in the decades after the war for families to make regular pilgrimages to the charnel houses of Verdun. They had private grief, but they had public pride as well; and they dealt with their memories in a more active way - sometimes, it must be said, in a manner so francocentric that it could overlook the participation of other countries. Doubtless this grief, tended and watered like a shrub at the foot of a war-grave headstone, had a bearing on the popularity of the deal that Petain struck with Hitler at Montoire in 1940. So at this point, when the population at large, with writers as their spokesmen, might have been expected to bring the events of 1914-18 into focus, a new disaster prevented them John Maynard Keynes's view that the Treaty of Versailles would be no more than a ceasefire for more than 20 years proved accurate. And the Second World War was to be remembered in quite different ways. The most important was that in which worldwide Jewry insisted that the victims of the Nazi Holocaust be enumerated, named and honoured. This admirably energetic memorialisation was co-ordinated across many countries and continues to the present day. An unintended consequence was that it threw a further smokescreen across the events of 1914-18. While the average serviceman or woman was laconic about his or her part in the Second World War (those who were not reticent were lampooned as "saloon-bar majors" who were "shooting a line"), there were novelists, historians and, especially, film-makers who were anxious to remember and celebrate the role this country had played in a more obviously just and glamorous conflict. Spitfires, Desert Rats and Dambusters had more to commend them than trench foot, lice and slaughter. Here is another stumbling block to proper memory: no one seems able to say for sure whether the Great War represents simply (as Harry Patch, for one, believed) a catastrophic human failure, with warring monarchs, many of whom were closely related, politicians and diplomats guilty of unleashing hell through their negligence, bumbling and self-interest; or whether Britain was obliged by its relations with France and Belgium to halt the intolerable advance of German imperialism. Was it, in other words, a form of natural disaster on an unprecedented scale; or was it a reasonable war, with more complex and nuanced justification than that of 1939-45, but essentially comparable? And then there are the men themselves. It all comes back to the memory of the private soldier in his shell hole, the staff officer behind the lines, the stretcher bearer, the sapper; the individual sailor, airman, runner. I met and talked to quite a few while it was possible to do so, in the Eighties and Nineties. Their memories tended to have crystallised into anecdotes that they would happily retell, but they struggled to give an overall picture of what it was "really" like; it was hard for them to bridge that gap of years: "I cannot paint | what then I was..." as Wordsworth put it. For many lonely men, the day-long company of others brought comfort. For those from the slums, the very idea of two meals a day was a novelty - and there were no complaints from them about the bully beef. § The friendships they formed were profound. A minority "went over the top" into the great g killing fields; the majority survived - many had jobs behind the lines in "transport" and I administration. Some men lost faith in God and man on July 1, 1916, seeing swaths of England, Scotland, Wales and Ulster annihilated on the first day of the Battle of the Somme; the best this country had to offer - men who should have lived to make it a better place than it turned out to be - mown down and sacrificed for no clear reason. Others continued to believe they were fighting in a worthwhile cause. The soldiers were not allowed to keep diaries (although many did); their record of the war exists mostly in letters home, preserved at the Imperial War Museum and other archives around the country. They are not quite "memories"; they are snapshots of a day or a moment and they need a reader or interpreter. Visual images - whether paintings or photographs, of kings or corpses - have that same vitality, but also the sense of needing something more: what Keats called a "greeting of the spirit". These portraits have the priceless quality of being of their time; but this contemporaneous authenticity is nothing without the participation of the viewer. I have trawled through thousands of written documents and still dread the letter home that says, "We are going to attack. We are all merry and bright, thumbs up and trusting to the best of luck," because it is almost always followed by a message of condolence from the King. Even at the distance of a century, these letters and images have the power to fill one with rage, sorrow and despair. The trauma they underwent and the way that history conspired against them made it difficult for the men who fought in the Great War to give a full picture of that experience. We, in the decades that followed, have found it difficult to "remember" for them. It is, however, possible that the passage of 100 years has given us the necessary perspective; it has certainly given us distance. It is too late for those involved to revisit, relive and finally to understand, with whatever grief, the nature of the convulsion. It has fallen to a later generation to complete the process by the energy of its imaginative outreach. The Great War in Portraits is at the National Portrait Gallery from February 27 to June 15. This essay is from the exhibition catalogue, £18.95 (npg.org.uk). The spring season is sponsored by Herbert Smith Freehills Sunday Times supplement 16th February 2013 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Feb 14 - 04:05 AM Thanks Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Feb 14 - 04:17 AM Read it and weep - as you would heve done if you'd have bothered to listen to what the soldiers had to say instead of calling them liars. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Feb 14 - 04:55 AM You have not read it have you! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Musket Date: 17 Feb 14 - 05:11 AM A friend was asking about the Eurostar the other night, as I had been on it last week. He said he was going to visit the war graves. There you go. Despite the attempts by Hastings, Gove and other hacks to say otherwise, there are still huge numbers of dead people. Perhaps Gove could take a leaf out of The Dept of Health's book with healthcare regulation. The regs are all outcome based. Apply that to this situation and an inspector would conclude the following; "Yes, I have reviewed your evidence to say the men were well led and knew what they were letting themselves in for, but the outcome is that they are dead. Lots of them dead in fact. If your evidence of process was robust, there wouldn't be so many dead. I am issuing a compliance action for gross incompetence, served on the armed forces and politicians of the day, and express no confidence in the cover up being attempted by present incumbents. Even worse, a few shallow members of the public are believing your shit, and that will never do." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Feb 14 - 05:52 AM "You have not read it have you!" rom end to end - which bit in particular are you going to select to salvage your long-lost cause? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: GUEST Date: 17 Feb 14 - 07:21 AM My Great Granddad used to say that if there was a lull in the fighting on Xmas Day, it would have been in defiance of the top brass and the implications were harsh. He used to say the unforgiving nature of the military was to cover up their incompetence and lies. He was there, unlike most of the sources mentioned here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Feb 14 - 07:56 AM Musket, I had no idea people had actually died. If only we had known. Anonymous person, millions served at the front. Individual accounts are interesting, but have to be assessed in conjunction with the tens of thousands of accounts that are preserved. Historians who research that source report that most soldiers believed in the war. Jim, you have watched 3 documentaries, seeing and hearing things that were not said, and despite the presenters slow, clear pronouncements to camera you saw a completely different message. That appears to be also the case with this novelist's views. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Feb 14 - 11:01 AM "Individual accounts are interesting, but have to be assessed in conjunction with the tens of thousands of accounts that are preserved." None of which have been made fully public and there is no indications of what these diaries contain so there can be no possible conclusions like your %80 = men going willingly, knowing what they were fighting for and returning with the same convictions. Writers like Sebastian Faulks not only researched the diaries for his highly regarded writings, but he interviewed many soldiers - he was considered authoritative enough to have been chosen to write the commentary for an official exhibition of war paintings. Historians like Liddell Hart were fighting in the field (he was an officer) and again, his writings on the war were fully accepted by fellow historians and by those who were there, or the families of the soldiers who fought, as fair and genuine. What you have presented is a tiny handful of revisionist (in the correct historological sense) of historians who have questioned certain small details of the war (not one of them has ever challenged the overall analysis of that war - or if they have, you have yet to find it i your desperate scrambling around the net for "evidence"- no more that a half dozen from a pool of several hundred now involved in war research. You have failed to come up with one historian who challenges the overal analysis of the war, you can only lie about the programmes that have sunk your arguments deeper than the Titanic (you have yet to mount one serious challenge to one point I raised, in fact I am convinced that you never even bothered to watch them, just like you have never read a book. You can not raise on objection to Faulkes' remarkable, compassionate article other than to say that men like Harry Patch didn't know what they were talking about, just like you accused Tommy Kenny and other veterans of being "liars". If you have any evidence whatever of what is contained in those soldiers' diaries , please indicate where it has been made public - other than a single quote from your tabloid journalist. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Feb 14 - 01:46 PM Faulkes writes novels, and he does not support you anyway. I have not "presented a tiny handful of revisionists." All historians have rejected the view that you still cling to. They have all the knowledge presented by Lidell Hart and others of that time, and much more besides. None of your crowd of politically motivated know-nothings have been able to find, in three solid months of searching, a single living historian who believes that old shit. My view is that of historians. Yours is just yours. You lose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Teribus Date: 18 Feb 14 - 03:22 AM Classic Christmas Carroll tactic - when losing an argument invent stuff and put words into other people's mouths 1: "Individual accounts are interesting, but have to be assessed in conjunction with the tens of thousands of accounts that are preserved." None of which have been made fully public and there is no indications of what these diaries contain so there can be no possible conclusions like your %80 = men going willingly, knowing what they were fighting for and returning with the same convictions. Two points here Christmas the first being for something to be a fact does not require it to have been made "fully public". Now accredited historians have access to material that the general public do not and there are extremely good reasons for that mainly to do with preservation. The second point relates to the last part of the section in italics above, i.e. "...like your %80 = men going willingly, knowing what they were fighting for and returning with the same convictions." Could you please give me a direct quotation from anything that Keith has written that - I won't hold my breath, because Keith has never contended anything of the sort, he has never stated anything at all about anybody returning with the same convictions 2: "Writers like Sebastian Faulks not only researched the diaries for his highly regarded writings, but he interviewed many soldiers - he was considered authoritative enough to have been chosen to write the commentary for an official exhibition of war paintings." Ah so the works of those in the rather long list of names of degree qualified historians, supplied by Keith, who are known and recognised internationally as being specialists in the subject and period we are talking about, are to be discounted, yet "A writer" a novelist, broadcaster and journalist has to be regarded as the the only opinion that has to be considered - by the way wasn't Max Hastings a journalist too. By the way are you 100% sure that Sebastian Faulks has been the only person to research the contents of those diaries? Or have others also looked at them as part of their research? I know for a fact that other historians have interviewed soldiers, sailors and airmen who fought and served in the "Great War". The 1964 BBC Documentary series is full of such interviews, oddly enough many of those interviewed did state that they knew full well why they enlisted to fight, they believed the cause to be just and right and still thought so at the end of the war. Many of those same men also said that it was terrible beyond imagining and that they would not willingly go through it again, and the expression of such sentiments are perfectly understandable, but that does not support any argument that you have put up to date. By the way Christmas do you want to know the number of men who had volunteered for the army by Christmas 1914? You know the date by which, according to you, the Government and the Army recruiters had promised them they would all be back home? 1,186,337 3: "Historians like Liddell Hart were fighting in the field (he was an officer) and again, his writings on the war were fully accepted by fellow historians and by those who were there, or the families of the soldiers who fought, as fair and genuine." Captain Basil Liddell Hart's wartime experience was fairly brief and confined to a total of three short trips to the front (two in 1915 and one in 1916). He was a volunteer in 1914, so are you saying that he disagreed with Great Britain going to war? Are you saying that he volunteered on the premise that the Government or the Army had told him he would be home by Christmas? Are you saying that he volunteered not knowing why Britain was going to war. By the by, Liddell Hart's writings were written in hindsight, what did he write at the time? Were Liddell Hart's writings objective or subjective? Do you think he had any particular axe to grind. On reflection his views are ever appearing to be highly suspect, and downright ridiculous in parts. For Example: Britain should not have sent a large army to fight in mainland Europe, it should have left that to her allies (We'll just ignore the fact that had she done that France would have been knocked out of the War in 1914, Russia shortly after and Germany would have set the terms in any negotiated peace with Great Britain). Britain should have used her naval power to transport our army to fight the enemy away from the principal front at places of our choosing. That was an option open to the Royal Navy of Nelson's day, but by 1914 things like mines and submarines had been invented that meant closing a hostile enemy coast was extremely risky, let alone making an opposed landing on it. Admiral Jellicoe - the only man in Great Britain who could have lost the War in one afternoon. Basil Liddell Hart made the argument for manoeuver warfare and taking the indirect approach to reach one's objectives, which is all very good in theory and that was tried in 1914. That was what the "race to the sea" was all about, but in 1914 after the German defeats on the Marne and on the Yser an unbroken line of trenches extended from the North Sea to the Swiss border - that Christmas was the fact of the matter as plain as a pike staff for all to see - wishing that things were different is a totally futile and pointless exercise - After 1914 there was no alternative to frontal assault of the enemy as there were no flanks to turn. Liddell Hart also does not go into attempting to explain what in 1915 Britain was going to do with those 1,186,337 men who had rushed to join the colours. I'd love to hear how you define "fully accept" and "fellow historians", do you mean like minded chaps like you and Musket, purely because the pair of you think you agree with him? After 1914 a whole new method of waging war and fighting battles had to be evolved, and Liddell Hart had no hand in it. Those who did, you know all those incompetent bastards that you, anonymous Guest and Musket keep banging on about, they worked it out, and what they worked out still, by and large, holds good to this day. The British Army of 1914 was about 240,000 men in total, by November 1918 it was 16 times bigger, the army's artillery had undergone a revolution as had its ability to lay down accurate and intricate barrages that would ultimately defeat Rommel in North Africa. The new Tank Corps and a completely new branch of our armed forces had come into being, the Royal Air Force - all created, established and honed into an all arms fighting force by those incompetents who succeeded in defeating the established premiere military power of the day who outnumbered us three to one. 4: Who has Keith branded as a "liar" - apart from yourself that is, because on a number of occasions on this thread you have attempted to present complete and utter untruths as established fact and on each occasion you have been caught out. Rather liked this from our anonymous Guest: "My Great Granddad used to say that if there was a lull in the fighting on Xmas Day, it would have been in defiance of the top brass and the implications were harsh. He used to say the unforgiving nature of the military was to cover up their incompetence and lies. He was there, unlike most of the sources mentioned here. How convenient, but most likely the post quoted above is 100% bullsh*t. Now why do I suppose that? Where are the bits that don't ring quite true? Here: "My Great Granddad used to say that if there was a lull in the fighting on Xmas Day" After the one and only partial truce that occurred on the first Christmas of the Great War, to prevent any chance of such a thing ever happening again barrages, and raids were ordered on Christmas eve to ensure that there were no lulls in the fighting. Unfortunately anonymous Guest it is a fact of life in the military that you have to obey all legal orders, and I am sure that your Great Grandfather would have known that, I am sure you can regale us, with countless examples of lies he was told, lies that he must have swallowed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Musket Date: 18 Feb 14 - 04:46 AM Oh well, if you are distinguishing between fact and novels.... I'd start again that basis Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 14 - 05:00 AM The 80% figure I have posted was how many soldiers survived the war. Paxman put it at 90% last night. I do believe that most returned with their convictions unchanged. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 14 - 05:36 AM Many historians have researched the diaries and letters of soldiers, including Hastings. Jim, any comments on the final Paxman programme? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Feb 14 - 08:07 AM Bollocks Keith - there is no access to those diaries by the general public, historians have used a minuscule number to back up their various claims - not one of them,as I recall have ever called the soldiers who fought liars - only you. The &80 you posted were claims of soldiers who returned with the same conviction they left with. "Jim, any comments on the final Paxman programme?" My view of Paxman - a perfect summing up to an unprecedented slaughter. The war throughout was presented for what it was, two massive groups of men, overwhelmingly working people, thrown at each other in face-to-face fighting until one of them gave way. As the slaughter went on the numbers were made up by more working men. The end-result of it all - panning shots of cemeteries filled with young men who had given their lives for an Empire that was soon to disintegrate, largely to the ritual slaughter that had taken place Throughout the programmes there wan't a single example of "great leadership", just the shepherding of millions of young men to their deaths; it was never anything more than a crudely choreographed bloodbath, it didn't even have the panache of a John Ford bar-room brawl as far as leadership was concerned. Even at the beginning of 1918 Haig was demanding yet more human sacrifices to throw at the 'enemy' - working class Germans who were undergoing the same brutality and inhumanity at the hands of their leaders Haig demanded total commitment to the death, "no surrender" - where have we heard that before? Blunders, miscalculations, indifference, incompetence emanated from the top, both on the war front and at home, with complacency and unpreparedness. At home the profiteers continued to profit and businessmen exploited the families of those busily dying for the British Empire. What gains were made by the end of the war were brought about by the realisation that those who had sacrificed their menfolk, many of whom had previously been living in hovels, would never willing return to those brutalising conditions For a short time they were allowed to benefit from the brief relaxing of oppression to the extent of at last being able to feed their families. Some of us were allowed to vote - even (some) women Those changes were pretty short lived - by the twenties there was mass unemployment, unrest, strikes, a return to poverty, hunger marches - and then preparation for even more slaughter. The people (not the leaders) in Germany where humiliated and impoverished by crippling war reparations, yet they attempted (and failed) in the years following the war, to overthrow those who had led them to the slaughter. Britain allowed Germany to re-arm, first ignored, the attempted to appease Herr Hitler and his buddies and vilified and criminalised anybody who tried to stop him. "Then we started all over again", as Eric Bogle was once heard to remark I'm assuming that your asking my opinion because you are incapable of making your own assessment from your script and want to bonce off somebody else's who bothered their ares to follow the programmes It's fairly obvious that you have watched none of these and are waiting for someone to give you a toe-hold into your BBC acquired script. Now feel free to fire away Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 14 - 08:10 AM 29 minutes in. Paxman to camera, "Britain now had a tactically smarter, better organised army, capable of deploying men and machines to devastating effect" He and the team clearly saying that the army was well led. 57 minutes in. Paxman to camera, " Later generations would contend it had been a futile war. The war was terrible certainly, but hardly futile. It stopped the German conquest of much of Europe, and perhaps even of villages like this. Never before in the nation's History had a war required the commitment and the sacrifice of the whole population, and by and large, for 4 years, the British people kept faith with it." He and the team clearly saying 1: That Britain had no choice but to resist the German onslaught; 2: That the British people overwhelmingly understood and accepted that; |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 14 - 08:42 AM Bollocks Keith - there is no access to those diaries by the general public, historians have used a minuscule number to back up their various claims Two lots of bollocks Jim. 1.The whole archive is in the process of being put online. 2.Historians use of the archive could not in any way be described as miniscule. You made that up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Teribus Date: 18 Feb 14 - 09:15 AM Another fact about those incompetent bastards who led the British Army and prevailed on the western front. Remember those 1,186,337 men who had volunteered by December 1914? By September 1915 they numbered 2,257,521 and it was these men who were trained up to fight the Battle of the Somme in 1916. Kitchener's Volunteer Army was given scant credit by those already in France General Sir John French scoffed that it had taken the Germans 40 years and conscription to train and create an Army of 25 Corps. By June 1916 the British had formed 18 of those 25 Corps and they were ready to go into the line. After the German assault at Verdun and after the British and French assault on the Somme brought it home to the Germans that they were not going to win on the Western Front. Falkenhayn the German Chief of the General Staff was dismissed, it had been his 1916 strategy to bleed the British and French white on the western front, his strategy failed and instead it was the Germans who were bled white as British, French and American industry surged ahead and output back in Germany started to decline. So much for incompetence eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Feb 14 - 10:20 AM "29 minutes in. Paxman to camera, " More evidence that you never bothered to watch the programmes and are extracting pieces out of context The British certainly had no alternative other than to resist the German onslaught after the Government had placed it in the position it was in, in order to defend its colonial might - that has never been in dispute. It was the "sleep-walking into war prematurely", the incompetent leadership that slaughtered so many of our British youth and it was the predators who stayed behind and pretended nothing was happening who made the lives of the families difficult and miserable. As Paxman made clear from the beginning - it was a war between Empires - their death throes - that is proof of exactly how futile it was. Why anybody should bother their arses discussing a series of excellent programmes with somebody who hasn't even bothered to watch them is totally beyond me. Maybe you'll get round to watching the programmes if they are ever repeated, as long as they dont clash with 'Eastenders', that is. Tell yor fick 'war-games' friend to to go and play in the garden Piss of both of you - you're a pair of caricatures. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Teribus Date: 18 Feb 14 - 11:06 AM Frothing again Christmas? All you have done here is prove that you don't know your ares from your below (As you would put it) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 14 - 11:28 AM I have no script Jim. I recorded and studied the programmes, and transcribed the quotes in context. It was the presenter making statements. That was the message of the programmes, not the shit you imagined. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Feb 14 - 01:23 PM "I have no script Jim." Don't believer a ******* word of it. You have obviously not watched a single one of these programmes, but have done your usual trick of cherry-picking the bits from web-supplied information, or, in this case, the Beeb handout. It's hard to conceive of anybody so stupid as to not even bother to watch something as important and informative as this and then claim that they have backed up all their jingoistic claims, when they have said exactly the opposite - unless, of course, it's someone who claims to have made a "life study" of a subject, fails to produce one shred of evidence from their own knowledge, bases their entire argument on hastily gathered and doctored cut-'n-pastes, and then goes on to prove that not only do they have no foreknowledge of the subject whatever, but have never read a book on any subject. Typos again Colonel Chinstrap!! You really must get whoever you have to read these postings for you to pay more attention - I make far more than you have commented on lately - keep up Colonel!!! Jim Carrll - whoops - there goes another one - cue to camera!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 14 - 01:45 PM I still have them all recorded if you would like anything clarified. The 80% figure i gave was for soldiers who survived. You were wrong about that too. Paxman gave the survival rate as 90%. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Musket Date: 19 Feb 14 - 07:03 AM So... Hastings said 80% of soldiers returned. Paxman said 90%. Which one are you going to shout Liar! at Keith? Which one are you going to say doesn't know because they don't understand what they read like you do? That's the problem with quoting journalists. They exaggerate or twist truth to fit their story. 10% of soldiers. That's a hell of a lot of well led understanding young men. Wonder what happened to them? No wonder the soil is calcium rich in Flanders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Feb 14 - 07:40 AM Musket, it did not come from Hastings. I stated from my own knowledge "over 80%" and was challenged by Greg. Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 14 Nov 13 - 06:07 PM Over 80% of soldiers made it home Source? Some numbers from Great Britain : "Conscription put into uniform nearly every physically fit man, six million out of ten million eligible in Britain. Of these, about 750,000 lost their lives and 1,700,000 were wounded." Makes about 5,250,000 British survivors. Source: "World War I casualties", Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I... "World War I: Troop Statistics", Digital Survivors : http://www.digitalsurvivors.com/archives... "Surviving veterans of World War I", Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surviving_v... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Teribus Date: 20 Feb 14 - 03:02 AM Oh do come along Christmas - Both Keith and myself have given you loads of facts (Note: Facts not opinions) that have utterly destroyed your dearly held myths, lies and half-truths, you have as yet not been able to challenge a single one of them. Keith has defended successfully the three points he initially made, while the likes of yourself, Musket and Greg F have floundered hopelessly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Feb 14 - 03:30 AM "Both Keith and myself have given you loads of facts" Er no you haven't Keith has invented a ghost army of historians to to back up claims that were abandoned half a century ago - you posture round like a child with a paper hat and a broom handle over your shoulder attempting to fight WW1 all over again. No facts - no sea-change of historical opinion - just a somewhat boring comedy-duo, only too repetitive to be even mildly amusing any more. Keith has never read a book and didn't even bother to watch the programmes he claims back his case, your martial posturings belong in the pub - most effective around closing time. You are a pair of attention-seeking buffoons - nobody takes you seriously, you have no support from anybody here and the sole value of responding to you has been to make sure you never will have. Been there, done that, got the satisfaction. What was it "infallible" Keith said, "pearls before swine" You're a pair of meglo nutters, go and play with each other, or if not, with yourselves. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Feb 14 - 04:00 AM There has been a "sea-change of historical opinion" but you lot missed it. I read History so I knew. Paxman knew. See his views I put up before the programmes. "claims that were abandoned half a century ago" is what you old farts have been propping up. The Historians of today have rubbished those myths. None of you have been able to find a single one who still believes them. The BBC/OU documentaries. The final summing up. 57 minutes in. Paxman to camera, " Later generations would contend it had been a futile war. The war was terrible certainly, but hardly futile. It stopped the German conquest of much of Europe, and perhaps even of villages like this. Never before in the nation's History had a war required the commitment and the sacrifice of the whole population, and by and large, for 4 years, the British people kept faith with it." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Feb 14 - 04:02 AM Musket and Jim. What about the 80% figure you challenged me about? You were both wrong again, and I was right. Nothing to say? |