BS: Black looters, white finders

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:48 PM

Sometimes, the word "found" serves as a poem in itself, telling you novels about attitudes:

"Today is the first day you will see a smile on some of the officers' faces," said NOPD Capt. Marlon Defillo, who was taking a break on the neutral ground of Loyola Avenue with Detective William Charbonnet. "This has been a tremendous challenge for members of the police department, but they've held their ground. They've given their hearts and souls."

[snip]

Defillo himself was feeling better after shaving for the first time in a week and taking an impromptu bath in the green, leafy water of a backyard swimming pool. He was wearing a clean pair of acid-washed jeans and a polo shirt that he "found."

[from the TImes-Picayune and nola.com]

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:54 PM

Strange - for a country that has been so anti-communistic - 'communally sharing property' seems to be be acceptable!

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:33 AM

Friends, It's the "New Okies"!!

"If you ain't got the dough-re-me, boys
If you ain't got the do-re-me,
You better go back to ..."------------the ghost of Woody

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:35 AM

Thank you for that story, Robin. That's the best thing about all of this I've read all day.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:19 AM

Hundreds of residents at the New Orleans' shelters relied on young teenage men -- commonly referred to by the media as looters -- to scavenge for food at grocery stores in the neighbourhoods surrounding the city's downtown core.

Some of the youths even commandeered New Orleans transit buses to transport people out of town.

"They are Robin Hoods, those boys. Write that down," said Qwentin Williams, 15.

The very end of a much longer story here.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:24 AM

I was personally isickened by the racism demonstrated by NBC's Today. A short piece on people hoping to find loved ones in a shelter, alive, showed six individuals including two couples. They were all white. Later Matt Lauer commmented on a scene of black people grabbing desperately for water bottles; "It looks like a scene from Somalia".

Now of course the white people hoping for news of loved ones suffered as terribly as did black people hoping for news of loved ones but the report seemed to say that only whites were experiencing tragedy. The remark alluding to Somalia implied that the persons so desperately needing water were on the level of a third world country. Maybe that's not so far fetched but the comment was disrespectful.

I nominate for a presidential medal, the 19 year old black youngster who stole the school bus and helped people from his neighborhood evacuate New Orleans. He is a true hero.

Putting FEMA under Homeland Security was a bad idea. We LOST a city as surely as if a dirty bomb or a nuke had been set off. Less dead, maybe. Can you now see what we will have to face when THAT scenario happens?

The undercurrent of racism in America welled up as a shameful flood but it has always been there. To those of you who like to think in cliches; Mississippi, the "deep south", Louisiana, et al are no more racist than any other part of the country. We are ALL racists, and we need to STOP!


CB

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:00 AM

When you use the position as head of an agency as a plum for political payback for supporters and donors, you're going to end up with guys who used to run horse shows managing disaster agencies instead of experienced professionals in the field running things. No mention of 11 years in the horse thing in his FEMA bio, and I expect he didn't do that all of the time, though the rest of his experience doesn't look much better. But looking at the investigative reports out there like in the Boston Herald, this guys' days are numbered.

Too bad only he will take the fall, instead of the guy who put him there to begin with.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:28 AM

This smacks of lazy-ass stupid "police work" on many levels. What in hell were these guys thinking?

****


Judge Orders Release of Jailed Grandmother
September 16, 2005 7:21 AM EDT

KENNER, La. - A 73-year-old diabetic grandmother and church elder who fled Katrina's floodwaters for the safety of a hotel ended up in prison instead for more than two weeks - all over a bite of food. Police in this New Orleans suburb arrested Merlene Maten the day after the hurricane on charges she took $63.50 in goods from a looted deli. Though never before in trouble with the law, her bail was set at a stiff $50,000 and she was shipped away to a state penitentiary.

Family and eyewitnesses insist Maten's prison odyssey was unwarranted, claiming she only had gone to her car to get some sausage to eat when officers cuffed her in frustration, unable to catch younger looters at a nearby store.

Despite intervention from the nation's largest senior lobby, volunteer lawyers from the Federal Emergency Management Agency and even a private attorney, the family fought a futile battle for 16 days to get her freed.

Then, hours after her plight was featured in an Associated Press story, a local judge on Thursday ordered Maten freed on her own recognizance, setting up a sweet reunion with her daughter, grandchildren and 80-year-old husband.

"I'm just gonna hug her and say 'Mom, I'm so sorry this had to happen,'" Maten's tearful daughter, Elois Short, told AP shortly after getting the news.

Prison officials planned to release Maten by this weekend. She must still face the looting charge at a court hearing in October. But the family, armed with several witnesses, intends to prove she was wrongly arrested outside the hotel.

"There were people looting, but she wasn't one of them. Instead of chasing after people who were running, they (police) grabbed the old lady who was walking," said Short, who works in traffic enforcement for neighboring New Orleans police.

Defense attorney Daniel Becnel, family members and witnesses said police snared Maten in the parking lot of a hotel after floodwaters swamped her New Orleans home. She had paid for her room with a credit card and followed authorities' instructions to pack extra food, they said.

She was retrieving a piece of sausage from the cooler in her car and planned to grill it so she and her husband, Alfred, could eat, according to her defenders. The parking lot was almost a block from the looted store, they said.

"That woman was never, never in that store," said Naisha Williams, 23, a New Orleans bank security guard who said she witnessed the episode and is distantly related to Maten. "If they want to take it to court, I'm willing to get on the stand and tell them the police is wrong. She is totally innocent."

Police Capt. Steve Carraway said Wednesday that Maten was arrested in the checkout area of a small store next to police headquarters.

The arrest report is short and assigns the value of goods Maten is alleged to have taken at $63.50. The items are not identified.

"When officers arrived, the arrestee was observed leaving the scene with items from the store. The store window doors were observed smashed out, where entry to the store was made," police reported.

Maten's husband was left at the hotel, until family members picked him up. He is too upset to be interviewed, the family said.

Christine Bishop, the owner of the Check In Check Out deli, said that she was angry that looters had damaged her store, but that she would not want anyone charged with a crime if the person had simply tried to get food to survive. "Especially not a 70-year-old woman," Bishop said.

Short, Maten's daughter, did not witness the incident. She said her mother has led a law-abiding life. She is a deaconess at the Resurrection Mission Baptist Church and won an award for her decades of service at a hospital, Short said.

"Why would someone loot when they had a car with a refrigerator and had paid with a credit card at the hotel?" asked Becnel, Maten's lawyer. "The circumstances defy the theory of looting."

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 12:03 PM

A bit late in responding to the inimitable Wolfgang, but better late than never--

No, I am not off the mark--I know exactly what you were doing--you looked at something that you really had no information about, and made a series of unfounded assumptions which led you to conclude that it was a glaring example of American racism, and you sanctimoniously pointed it out--

Bottom line is, lacking information, you made a sweeping judgement about the photos, based only your prejudice concerning America's racism-

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 07:36 PM

In fact you are way off the mark, M Ted. Have another look at what Wolfgang actually wtote, and you'll see he makes no assumptions whatsoever:

"Either there is an innocent interpretation and the writer of the captions knows more than can be seen in the pictures or there's a bit of everyday racism showing in the choice of words."

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 07:54 PM

"Either there is an innocent interpretation and the writer of the captions knows more than can be seen in the pictures or there's a bit of everyday racism showing in the choice of words."

McGrath, Wolfgang is German so maybe the usage differs but had that been written by an English person, I for one would say that statement, coupled with examples and placed in context was loaded one way.

It's not too disimilar to shambles saying "Our volunteer posters who may be well intenioned but..."

That said, wolfgang is generaly very rational so I suppose the benefit of the doubt should be given and I think he expalined in a later post.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 08:16 PM

I think that is a perfectly straightforward statement, which says what it means and means what it says. Wolfgang uses language very carefully, and the rest of us could learn a lot from him in that way. (And I write that as someone who quite often finds myself disagreeing with him over specific issues.)

In any case I think the matter of whether the captions writers were being racist is not the nub of the matter. What I think is much more interesting is the question of how far people looking at those pictures would be likely interpret them in different ways, in the absence of any captions whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 08:32 PM

What I think is much more interesting is the question of how far people looking at those pictures would be likely interpret them in different ways, in the absence of any captions whatsoever.

Now you might have a point there. A sample of pople from different races, backgrounds, classes etc. asked to caption each could be interesting. As it stands, we do not know how more likely it would be on the evidence provided.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:15 PM

I think most North Americans would see the post by Wolfgang as loaded. People seeking to influence opinion often start off an argument in just that way; we not only suspect but know there is a hidden dagger. M Ted's reaction mirrored mine.

Wolfgang might be innocent of the intent assigned to him, but our culture conditions our interpretation of the language.
It is also true that criticism (and sometimes even a compliment) by people from outside the country is seldom taken gracefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 12:45 PM

"...our culture conditions our interpretation of the language.

True enough of all cultures. And that includes the visual language of photographs.

It will be good when eventually racism is finally gone, and that will only have happened when people are no longer able to understand what it was all about. It hasn't happened yet by a long long way.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 05:10 PM

I was open to an innocent interpretation, but I thought that the most likekly interpretation was thoughtlessness betraying a tiny bit of subconscious prejudice.

My focus was not, however, on the USA or on the white/black divide in particular. It was just one of many examples. Other instances:
We have a verb in German, if I translate it verbatim, it says 'to turk' and it means to cheat. I have used it all my life unthinkingly until a student told me I better shouldn't (we have a lot of students of Turkish descent).
Recently, a Mudcatter wanting to express his dislike of the leader of the British BNP called him "Herr Griffin". I guess he even didn't think for a second that German Mudcatters could find the use of the word 'Herr' to express extreme dislike of a person and/or to allude to right radical and fascist positions insulting.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 05:25 PM

To welsh on a debt

To gyp (meaning cheat)

Take French leave

Need some Dutch courage.

Our languages are full of them. Most of the time they are harmless enough, except where they feed into situations where there is genuine current prejudice or discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 05:55 PM

"To gyp [someone]" also means to get ahead of someone in line without permission.

Needless to say this isn't a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 06:03 PM

See this excertpt of an online article on Negative connotations of the color Black :

In the Western world, black is most often used with a negative connotation. The reasons for this are various, but the most widely accepted explanations are that night is experienced by humans as negative and dangerous. A secondary reason is that stains are most visible as dark additions to pale materials. In traditional class-based cultures "pale" skin indicated genteel domestic or intellectual indoor-work as opposed to rough outdoor labor in the fields. Aspects of this black/white opposition are not unique to the West, as, for example in the Indian varna system. African and African-American writers such as Franz Fanon, Langston Hughes, Maya Angelou, and Ralph Ellison in particular identify a number of negative symbolisms surrounding the word "black", arguing that the good vs. bad dualism associated with white and black provide prejudiced connotations to color metaphors for race.

A "black day", in these cultures, would refer to a sad or tragic day. The Romans already marked fasti days with white stones and nefasti days with black.

e.g. the Black September in Jordan refers to a month in which thousands were killed.

Black Monday, stock crash of October 19, 1987

Black Tuesday is the day of the stock market crash in 1929 which is the start of the Great Depression.

Black Wednesday caused Britain to pull out of the ERM.

Black Thursday, date preceding the stock crash of October 29, 1929, forecasting the stock market crash and the Great Depression

Black Friday, various tragic events.

many poems and songs use the word black negatively (e.g. Paint it black (Rolling Stones), Baby's in black (Beatles), Black eyed dog (Nick Drake).

In these cultures, the color black is often used in painting, film, and literature to evoke a sense of the fear or to symbolize death. It has also been adopted a symbolic color of the Halloween festival.

In English heraldry, black means darkness, doubt, ignorance, and uncertainty. (The American Girls Handy Book, p. 370)

Black is often a color of mourning. Historically, widows and widowers were expected to wear black for a year after the death of their spouses.

Black comedy is a form of comedy dealing with morbid and serious topics.

Black magic is an evil form of magic, often connected with death.
In computer security, blackhat is an attacker with evil intentions.

A blacklist is a list of undesirable persons or entities.

Evil witches are sterotypically dressed in black and good fairies in white. Melodrama villains are dressed in black and heroines in white dresses. In many Hollywood Westerns, bad cowboys wear black hats while the good ones wear white. Funeral dress is black, wedding gowns are white.

The black-market is illegal.

Blackmail is illegal and is perceived as immoral.

The black sheep of the family is the ne'er-do-well.

The infamous "black hole of Calcutta."

To blackball them is to block them from being admitted.

Black thoughts are dark ones.

A black mood is a bad one (e.g. Winston Churchill's depression, which he called "my black dog").

A black cat usually means bad luck.

If you sink the black eight-ball in billiards, you lose. (The ball with which you sink all others is the white cue ball.)

A black mark against you is a bad thing.

A dark night is "black as hell".

A black-hearted person is mean and unloving.

Black propaganda is the use of known falsehoods, partial truths, or masquerades in propaganda to confuse an opponent.

****

As to the example " Black thoughts are dark ones. ", the author of this article may not have considered that he/she used "dark" as a negative.

However, that article does list some positive meanings of the color "black". Too bad most Black children aren't familiar with those positive meanings.

In 2005 you can still hear African American children hurl what they consider an insult to another African American by calling him or her "blackie".

All of this to saym that we've still got alot of work to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 08:32 PM

gyp- to get ahead of someone without permission- never heard that one before. Perhaps a new meaning popping up.
Not in Lighter, 1994, Vol. 1, Historical Dictionary of American Slang.

Also used in the British military and civil service to refer to an Egyptian or Egyptian practices (1889).
Applied to horsemen (or small stables), who follow a racing circuit, and are not in the big money (1930s). Not derogatory.

There are so many discriminatory words that it would take a book to list them all.

Wolfgang's "turk"- In American usage, "a young, dynamic person eager for change"- Webster's (often applied to a young politician on the rise). Not necessarily derogatory.
The English have several definitions (OED) but I don't know which are current.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 08:55 PM

Off topic:

Q,

"Gyp" [gipped] had that meaning [getting ahead of someone in line]when I was growing up in Atlantic City, New Jersey in the 1950s. It may even predate that. Another word for gipping is 'bogarding' {I believe this is from Humphrey Bogart}.

I believe that the other definition for gyp-"being cheated out of something" was also used when I was growing up. And both of them are in current use in my adopted hometown of Pittsburgh, PA.

Maybe this [usage]is a Black thing, but I rather doubt it is confined only to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 09:21 PM

Hey, I ain't followed this thread since I'z been too busy movin' and stuff but I just checked it out and read Mizi Azizi's thread above about the way Anglo Saxon's have used langiage to put so much negativity on the word black...

I gotta a different take on it...

First of all, as an art major, black is not a color so when it comes to the color'eds, that would more likely apply to caucasions!!! White is a mixture of all the basic colors: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet... If you were to take these basic colrs and make a wheel with equal parts of each as slices like in a pie and spin it real fast guess what... It would turn white, 'er very close to it...

So to my white catters, how's it feel to discover that you is the colored folks???

Nevermind...

But lets take abother look at black and they way that Anglo Saxtons have messed it all up... Yeah, granted, they have done eveything in theior power to cover their guilt by attaching as much negative associations with it but lets just look at life fir a second...

Daylight is the time when most humans go out and get all stressed, fight wars, make stupid decisions and the night time is like a respite, where we take time to refresh our bodies...

Yeah, I love the darkness and the absence of color as much as the daylight and the stress and the color... Darkness isn't scarey....

No, quite the opposite... It represents a time of refreshment... A time of rejuvination... A time to let today's disappointments turn into yet another time of hope...


Sure, this may seem to be very threatenin' to lots og Anglo-Saxons because then they might have to face the reality atht "black" has gotten a bad rap and if so, why???

Tough questions here...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 09:36 PM

I imagine that the tendency to associate the word the word "black" with negative things would have come from the idea of light and darkness, with the latter being more threatening, since you can't see what is going on in the dark, and so forth. That would imply that the same kind of negative associations would be likely to occur in dark-skinned societies as in light-skinned ones, and I believe this is borne out in practice.

The use of "black" and "white" to refer to skin colours is really rather odd - it generally bears very little relationship to the actual skin colour of the people so termed.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 09:42 PM

My dog is named Gyp a diminuative of Gypsy from the name of a dog in Charles Dickens' book "David Copperfield".

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 12:06 AM

Curious about black applied to skin color, entries in the OED indicate its use in this way as far back as 1225. The earliest reference cited to 'white man" is 1672.

Bobert correct since optically, black is really the total absence of color, but that ain't the way people other than scientists and occasionally artists have defined it. It has been called a color for practical purposes at least since Beowulf (870 approx.).

And black is the color of my true love's hair.

I remember that years ago, people used to call someone who is correct in their pronouncements or definitions, but the definitions are wrong according to common or folk wisdom and usage, an edjicated idjit. (I was called one many times before I learned not to argue commonly held beliefs).

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 06:47 AM

Come on Azizi, that's a bit one sided. You've pulled out alot of uses of the word 'black', and assumed the worst in all cases.

How about NON RACIAL meanings?

A lack of light, ie darkness or blackness has long invoked fear and uncertainly, as you can't see what's out there.

Also you state the Romans used black as a negative colour. Given the huge influence classical civilistaion had on the West, you really do need some specfic reason to suspect Black being used negativly has some racial connection.

I've pulled out alot of the ones that I know or suspect roots for other than the two above.

Bunnahabhain

A "black day", in these cultures, would refer to a sad or tragic day. The Romans already marked fasti days with white stones and nefasti days with black.

e.g. the Black September in Jordan refers to a month in which thousands were killed.

Black Monday, stock crash of October 19, 1987

Black Tuesday is the day of the stock market crash in 1929 which is the start of the Great Depression.

Black Wednesday caused Britain to pull out of the ERM.

Black Thursday, date preceding the stock crash of October 29, 1929, forecasting the stock market crash and the Great Depression

Black Friday, various tragic events.

many poems and songs use the word black negatively (e.g. Paint it black (Rolling Stones), Baby's in black (Beatles), Black eyed dog (Nick Drake).

In these cultures, the color black is often used in painting, film, and literature to evoke a sense of the fear or to symbolize death. It has also been adopted a symbolic color of the Halloween festival.


In English heraldry, black means darkness, doubt, ignorance, and uncertainty. (The American Girls Handy Book, p. 370)
Black meaning darkness. And this is racism?

Black is often a color of mourning. Historically, widows and widowers were expected to wear black for a year after the death of their spouses.

Black comedy is a form of comedy dealing with morbid and serious topics.

Black magic is an evil form of magic, often connected with death.

A blacklist is a list of undesirable persons or entities.

Evil witches are sterotypically dressed in black and good fairies in white. Melodrama villains are dressed in black and heroines in white dresses. In many Hollywood Westerns, bad cowboys wear black hats while the good ones wear white.
Exacly as you say, stereotypes.

In computer security, blackhat is an attacker with evil intentions.
see above for origins

Funeral dress is black, wedding gowns are white.
That's the white for viginity. Male wedding outfits are mainly black. Or does that imply the husband-to-be should go into mourning for something?

The black-market is illegal.
It happems out of sight of the authorities and general population, ie in the dark, or black.

Blackmail is illegal and is perceived as immoral.
As for black market. And surely you're not saying blackmail is a moral or desirable thing?
The black sheep of the family is the ne'er-do-well.
Probably from the fact that most sheep are white, so the black sheep is the odd one out, which is what you want the troublemaker in the family to be.

The infamous "black hole of Calcutta."
It was very dark, and a hole. Hence black hole.

To blackball them is to block them from being admitted.

Black thoughts are dark ones.

A black mood is a bad one (e.g. Winston Churchill's depression, which he called "my black dog").

A black cat usually means bad luck.
Or good luck. It's powerful, that's all.

If you sink the black eight-ball in billiards, you lose. (The ball with which you sink all others is the white cue ball.)
In Pool, you must sink the black ball to win, and in Snooker, the black is the most valuable ball. Or is sinking the black ball also a negative comment? Best not have a black ball at all to avoid this problem. Now you're discriminating against black....

A black mark against you is a bad thing.

A dark night is "black as Hell".
There are plenty of biblical refernces to Hell as a 'pit of darkness' and such like. So a dark night is as dark as the pit of darkness. Hmmm.

A black-hearted person is mean and unloving.

Black propaganda is the use of known falsehoods, partial truths, or masquerades in propaganda to confuse an opponent.

****

As to the example " Black thoughts are dark ones. ", the author of this article may not have considered that he/she used "dark" as a negative.

However, that article does list some positive meanings of the color "black". Too bad most Black children aren't familiar with those positive meanings.

In 2005 you can still hear African American children hurl what they consider an insult to another African American by calling him or her "blackie".

All of this to saym that we've still got alot of work to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 10:35 AM

Here's a link to a dailykos diary & comments on the perception of race in the United States:

Perceptions are Reality [by Delaware Dem Tue Sep 20th, 2005]

And here are some excerpts from that diary:

"According to the NBC/Journal poll conducted from Sept. 9-12, only 37 percent agree with the statement that the Bush administration would have acted with greater urgency had the affected areas been mostly white suburban communities. But there is a huge discrepancy by race here: Seventy percent of African Americans agree with the statement, while 67 percent of whites disagree.

Whether the Administration really would've responded quicker to white folks trapped in their attics and on their roofs for three days is irrelevant, (though you can count me in the 30% of whiteys who think the 82nd Airborne would have been deployed to evacuate Tallahassee and all the rich white Republican folks there if the situations were reversed) it is the perception that matters here. And that perception, like a bad first kiss on a bad first date, can never been reconciled. Seven out of ten black folks surveyed think Bush partied down with a country music singer and ate birthday cake while their brothers and sisters drowned. Oh wait, he did. Yes, sometimes perception can be based on reality....

Yes, class has something to do with Katrina, but race and class are inextricably linked in America, as even President Bush now admits. It sucks to be poor, regardless of race, but being black in this country adds even more hurdles for someone who is also poor. As Chris Rock opined, "It's haaaard to be black in America. Ain't no white man in this room wants to trade places with me... and I'm rich!"...

Rather than argue about whether the racism exists and at what level, understand that the perception is the reality. When 70% of black folks agree with Kanye West when he said "George Bush doesn't care about black people" and 67% of white people can't figure out why he said it, then we have us a serious problem.

At the same time, we cannot force racial tolerance and undestanding. I believe that most people, black and white, are not consciously racist. But we've been conditioned by living in a racist culture, and we often don't realize the subtle racism we exhibit. I believe that this kind of subconscious racism will die off with the older generations...

But then again, racism is learned. If you are an overt racist, chances are your child will be too...   

So how do we as a society bridge this racial gap in perception?"

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 11:24 AM

Anyone trying to present this list of blackness as a meaningful argument would be laughed off the stage in a serious debate. It is a commingling of religious, cultural, media, and idiomatic expressions that no one could ever take seriously. This is not to say that all of those selections are wrong, but it's a mishmash of terms and origins and many of them have acquired new meaning over time.

I sat at a conference a few years back in which an ill-advised undergraduate presented a passionate litany of all of the cultural slurs against American Indians. (Undergrads usually don't have the critical thinking skills established yet to construct the complex arguments needed for these conferences.) She was the voice in the wilderness defending these poor childlike creatures, and she assembled such a list as appears here in this thread. When one of the senior members of the group, president of the organization and noted American Indian lit scholar, in fact suggested that she dig deeper, that terms like "red handed" were not slurs that emanated from anti-Indian bigotry, miss-know-it-all responded "you're entitled to your opinion." The moderator had her off the stage in 10 seconds flat. The point was, she meant well but didn't have a clue as to the origins of all of the terms she accumulated or how to apply her argument.

One has to research a list like that if one wants that argument to amount to anything. Here is a Google search on sites that offer etymological information if anyone wants to start that search now.

As to the earlier term "gyp," that one is a cultural slur aimed at Gypsies. While much improved, they still have a reputation for sly acts and deception, as you will find in earlier Mudcat discussions like this one on Traveller Discrimination in the USA. It is one of several you'll find if you search on "Traveller." While one doesn't often hear the term "Jew" often referred to when implying shrewd bargaining, many don't seem to recognize the significance of "gyp."

(BTW: red-handed, according to one etymological site, suggests "1819, earlier red-hand (1432), originally in Scottish legal writing, from red (1) + hand, presumably from the image of a murderer caught in the act, with blood on the hands." link Another one suggests "Caught Red Handed: In medieval times, animal rustlers who killed someone else's livestock were sometimes clumsy enough not to clean the blood off their fingers. Hence, they were caught "red handed". link)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 12:23 PM

Thanks for the expressions from English, McGrath. All but one new to me.

It is possible to find bad meanings associated with 'white' (whitewash, white death) and good ones associated with 'black' (most examples I have in mind come from German: our conservatives for instance proudly call themselves 'blacks'; 'black gold' could be an English example), but on the balance of it Azizi is right.

The words black and white are used differently in different sciences. What Bobert from the point of view of an art major has said about the black/white difference is quite likely correct in that context but would be the wrong response in psychology of perception. And that the sun is a 'black' body would not count as a correct statement outside of physics.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 01:04 PM

The pictures which started this controversy have been removed from yahoo at the request of the copyright holder. http://news.yahoo.com/page/photostatement.

(The only meaning for bogard that I have ever known is to slobber all over a roach.)

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 01:08 PM

With regard to the cultural meanings of the word "black" in the United States, I stand by my position that this word is loaded with more negative connotations than positive. I also still very much believe that the positive cultural connotations for the color white and the negative connotations for the "color" black can have profound pychological effects for Black people and for White people.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 01:26 PM

Bunnahabhain,

FYI, the list I excerpted in my 18 Sep 05 - 06:03 PM post to this thread was not composed by me. It is from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Note this sentence from that article "In the Western world, black is most often used with a negative connotation"...

-snip-

"most often" does not mean always. If you read my post you will not that I did write "However, that article does list some positive meanings of the color "black".

-snip-

I then commented that it is "Too bad most Black children aren't familiar with those positive meanings."

-snip-

I'm sure that the article could have cited examples when the colors black and white are used in non-racial ways. However, part of my life work is to help raise the self-esteem and group esteem of children who still think 'blackie' is one of the worst insults that they could possibly receive. I used to feel that way too.

So pardon me if I don't have the time or patience or inclination to talk abstractly about the cultural meaning of "black".

I live what I talk.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 01:51 PM

So pardon me if I don't have the time or patience or inclination to talk abstractly about the cultural meaning of "black".

But you do have the time to find articles, and do a long cut and paste, of only one side of it.

I'm always dissapointed when people with a valid point carry it too far. The point gets lost in the 'inflation'.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 04:48 PM

"Wooly" thinking is thinking with a head packed full of what we USers call cotton (as in cotton balls,) and which is called, elsewhere in the world, "cotton wool" because the cotton is spun like freshly cleaned sheeps' wool which is spun and carded into roving to be spun into thread or yarn. It's got NOTHING to do with wooly hair on PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 05:29 PM

I don't know about the Sttes, but elsewhere I'd think the negative connotations of "black" come from light and darkness and so forth, and that can carry over to ybnderpin prejuduce about shades of skin, rather than the other way round with negative attitudes towards "black" arising from prejudice against black people.

And the same goes for "red", starting with blood and arising out of that there being an impact on how people can think about red-hair or "red" skin. (Though the only people around who in fact do have genuinely red skins are people of Northern European ancestry who've been out in the sun.)
.................................
The kinds of differences in assumptions Azizi mentioned that Americans appear to make along "racial" lines are disturbing, They echo the difference in political judgements, as demonstrated in the way that the Republicans have vanishingly little support among black Americans, and no doubt most of even that will have vanished in the wake of New Orleans. That kind of breakdown is profoundly worrying in any society.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 05:31 PM

I don't know about the States, but elsewhere I'd think the negative connotations of "black" come from light and darkness and so forth, and that can carry over to underpin prejudice about shades of skin, rather than the other way round with negative attitudes towards "black" arising from prejudice against black people.

And the same goes for "red", starting with blood and arising out of that there being an impact on how people can think about red-hair or "red" skin. (Though the only people around who in fact do have genuinely red skins are people of Northern European ancestry who've been out in the sun.)
.................................
The kinds of differences in assumptions Azizi mentioned that Americans appear to make along "racial" lines are disturbing, They echo the difference in political judgements, as demonstrated in the way that the Republicans have vanishingly little support among black Americans, and no doubt most of even that will have vanished in the wake of New Orleans. That kind of breakdown is profoundly worrying in any society.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 05:38 PM

I wonder where 'Bunnahabhain' lives. Azizi knows whereof she speaks, to use the cliché, when she is speaking of the word with regard to the intepretation held by African-Americans. "I live what I talk" - says it succinctly.

I enjoy tracing word origins, a hobby with me, but I hope that sometimes, at least, I think of the effect a word has on people rather than the etymology, usage in literature, etc. The list by B... is interesting, but is valueless with respect to conditioned responses.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 05:50 PM

I was but a young teen when the "colored" became "black". Maybe you all can clear something up for me...

Whose idea was it to make "Black" the respectful term by which people of color would be referred? Was it the black leaders of the day, or was it the whites?

...and how are African-Americans referred to in the UK? I mean, if a man of color was found dead, how would he be described?

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 07:05 PM

It'd depend - if he appeared to be of Indian origin he'd likely be described as "Asian" or "Indian", irrespective what shade his skin was.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 07:30 PM

John Hardly,

We {African Americans} have experimented with numerous group names among them being "African", "Negro", "Colored"; "Colored People", "Afro-American", "Black", and "African American" [with or without a hypen}. Because the referent "African American" refers to a geograhical location just as most other hyphenated ethnic names {such as "Italian-American" and "Irish American"}, since at least the late 1970s that has been the preferred formal group name for Black Americans. However, "Black" {I prefer the capitol letter spelling} is also acceptable, particularly as an informal referent. Note that the politically correct usage is "Black people", and not "the Blacks".

****

Here's an interesting article on group referents:

Name Games: Attempting to Define "African-American"

And here's an excerpt from that article:

Name Games
The folly in the attempts to define "African-American."
By Richard Thompson Ford
Posted Thursday, Sept. 16, 2004, at 3:21 AM PT


Among the many indignities racial minorities must endure are the perennial debates over the meaning of racial identity. Are the people formerly known as "Negroes" or "colored people" to be called people of color, black, Afro-American, or African-American? Are people of Mexican and Central-American ancestry Hispanic, Latino, Chicano, or Latin-American? Is it still OK to call people "Oriental," or is that a term best limited to rugs and geographic locations? More urgent than the nomenclature itself are the questions about who "counts" as a member of these groups, with their ever-increasing string of aliases.

A recent version of this controversy involves immigrants from Africa or the Caribbean and whether they are "African-Americans." Harvard professors have publicly worried that over half of Harvard's "black" students did not descend from American slaves but are, rather, immigrants or the children of immigrants from Africa or the Caribbean. Though it started off on the right track, this debate predictably became as much about the "identity" of these immigrants as the direction of Harvard's admissions policies.

Meanwhile Republican Alan Keyes complained that the Democratic Party's rising star, Barack Obama—the son of a Kenyan immigrant—"[wrongly] claims an African-American heritage." In reaction to which UC-Berkeley linguist John McWhorter quite reasonably pointed out that immigrants from, well, Africa, who are now residents of the United States of America, have a stronger claim to the term "African-American" than most American blacks, whose connection to Africa is generations old. Others worried that defining "African-American" as rooted in geographic origin seems to suggest that Teresa Heinz Kerry, born in Mozambique, and Charlize Theron, born in South Africa, are "African-American."

The nation anxiously awaits the answers to these urgent social questions.

It shouldn't. Arguments about the correct definition of racial identity are this century's version of medieval scholastic theologians' debates about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. They seem to be of vital moral and spiritual importance, involving many contested terms, conceptual puzzles, and facts not in evidence. They're a great way for smart people to pass the time until the bartender pours the next round. But there's no way to resolve these questions or even to agree on common grounds for debating them.... "

****

IMO, the entire article is worth the read for those interested in this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 07:48 PM

"People of color" is a referent that is used quite a bit {I think} more often by Afro-centric African Americans than those who are not as interested in learning about traditional African cultures
{which is how I'm using the term "Afro-centric"}.

But"people of color" is a wider term than "Colored people" as it includes all people other than White people.

And "of course", "Colored people" is not the same as the South African racial group "Coloured People" {though most African Americans/Black Americans/Colored people are racially mixed as are the South African Coloured People.

Complicated? You betcha.

Can we all get along?

I hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:10 PM

My friend (and banjo player in my trio) was doing his doctoral research in Africa. While living there he applied for a driver's license.

He came to the part of the application that referred to "color". Uncertain, he looked to his left and right at two dark-skinned men who stood there filling out similar forms and noticed that one had put down "yellow" while the other had marked "red".

Further puzzled, being American, and therefore assuming that by "color" they were referring to "race", but seeing two blacks fill in red and yellow instead, he went to the desk and asked the clerk what he was supposed to put in this blank.

The clerk looked at him for a second or two and then called over his supervisor. The supervisor asked my friend to show him the undersides of his arms and, when my friend did, said, "white, very".

Seems that what was necessary for the purposes of identification was description, not affiliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:17 PM

SRS said, "Undergrads usually don't have the critical thinking skills established yet to construct the complex arguments needed for these conferences."

Huh???

Critical thinking skills may be in the process of developing in an individual at any age, regardless of their level of schooling.

If you don't agree with the list of "black expressions" or their origins, perhaps you should state which expressions you disagree with.

Personally, I think Azizi probably has a better take on this than you. As has been mentioned previously, it is how the expression is perceived (rather than the origin) that actually matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:27 PM

That's a good story, John.

I'm not familiar at all with color consciousness in the nation of South Africa. I'm wondering if those men in your friend's story wrote those colors down just to 'mess with' the test.

I recall reading as a young adult that different members of
[what African Americans would call] Black families could be designated differently depending on the individuals' skin color. For instance, a light skinned child in a Black family might be designated as a Coloured [and-at one time anyway]receive a better education and more priviledges because of that designation.

I also remember reading that there was a pencil test that was done on hair that would determine whether a person from the Union of South Africa was Coloured or Black. It's been quite a while since I read this ,but it was something like if the hair was so tightly curly that a pencil could be put in the hair, then the individual was designated "Black". But if the hair was less curly or straight and the pencil couldn't remain in the hair, then the person was designated "Coloured".

Does anyone know if this 'pencil test' was or is true?

And haven't we moved far afield from the original purpose of this thread? Well, maybe not...

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 01:11 AM

If you don't agree with the list of "black expressions" or their origins, perhaps you should state which expressions you disagree with.


Dianavan, I'm frankly not interested in adding more fuel to this fire. The lists presented so far are compiled with no eye to anyone actually researching them and I find it pointless to argue about the contents of such lists.

SRS said, "Undergrads usually don't have the critical thinking skills established yet to construct the complex arguments needed for these conferences.."

Huh???


I think instead of my not knowing what I'm talking about, you aren't acquainted with the rigours of academia and what has to go into putting together a paper for a scholarly conference. Undergrads rarely have the stamina for such work, since they are rarely required to write papers with the depth (sophistication of topic and number of sources) and length (minimum 20 pages) required. The young woman in question had been egged on, perhaps perversely, by someone at her university. Someone should have vetted her paper first, but it went in unchallenged as part of a panel, or it would never have been accepted. This woman had not developed the self-knowledged to realize that she had a lot to learn. She was in over her head, drawing generalizations based on her ability to pull together a list, not to understand the contents.

Critical thinking skills may be in the process of developing in an individual at any age, regardless of their level of schooling.

They hopefully evolve at any age, but in America today I see a distressingly small attempt at teaching school children these skills. In undergraduate work, unless students are in very competitive programs or Honors programs, few are called upon to work that hard. She wasn't one of the few. And when I look at the outcome of the last election, I know that critical thinking skills were never taught to millions of Americans.

Personally, I think Azizi probably has a better take on this than you. As has been mentioned previously, it is how the expression is perceived (rather than the origin) that actually matters.

Sorry, you're wrong. We have different views of the topic, which is allowed in any logical debate. It's too over-simplified to suggest that someone's race automatically makes them an expert in all aspects of things affecting that race. That's not really what you're suggesting, is it? Experience and thoughtful consideration and attention to detail all come into play.

Of course origin matters. It matters as much as the reception. It's understanding that different groups bring different sets of meanings to the same words that goes into the Semiotics which are at the heart of this argument.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 01:43 AM

SRS - "It's too over-simplified to suggest that someone's race automatically makes them an expert in all aspects of things affecting that race. That's not really what you're suggesting, is it?"

Yes and no - but I do think that the intent of a "black" phrase when perceived by a "Black" person can be understood on an emotional level much faster than a white person can decode it. I also believe that African Americans have understood signifiers and embedded those signifiers in their language long before signifiers were studied by graduate students.

Of course language changes but regardless of those changes, the impact of the language remains. Black is black, regardless of how language evolves.

On the subject of critical thinking skills in America we agree.

BTW - I am fully acquainted with the rigours of academia but life experience has taught me that the ivory tower has little to do with cultural literacy and that, in fact, most graduate students fall flat on their face when expressing their ethno centric viewpoint to a multi-cultural audience.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 01:43 AM

Azizi, Hispanic on the U. S. Census does not indicate race, which may be White, Black, American Indian or Polkadot. This confuses a lot of people. They add white, etc., and then add Hispanic and arrive at a figure greater than the total.

Of course these figures are not the whole banana......

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 06:08 AM

I've never understood this "Hispanic" category Americans go in for. Is it linguistic or "racial"? Who is it supposed to include and exclude? Spaniards? Brazilians? Filipinos?

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 06:57 AM

Brown is the new black.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 06:57 AM

200.