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BS: Need info about the Red Cross

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GUEST,mg 25 Sep 05 - 09:43 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Sep 05 - 12:26 AM
GUEST,Barbara Eberly 26 Sep 05 - 01:11 AM
Paul Burke 26 Sep 05 - 08:32 AM
wysiwyg 26 Sep 05 - 09:40 AM
CarolC 26 Sep 05 - 02:08 PM
wysiwyg 26 Sep 05 - 02:37 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Sep 05 - 03:16 PM
CarolC 26 Sep 05 - 03:22 PM
wysiwyg 26 Sep 05 - 03:29 PM
wysiwyg 26 Sep 05 - 03:32 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Sep 05 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,G 26 Sep 05 - 09:05 PM
CarolC 27 Sep 05 - 03:34 PM
wysiwyg 27 Sep 05 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,G 27 Sep 05 - 04:13 PM
CarolC 28 Sep 05 - 12:03 PM
dianavan 29 Sep 05 - 03:54 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 09:43 PM

I asked a friend who lives near the gulf coast in Alabama and she suggested Long Beach, Missippi..said the whole town was lost..which makes one wonder if there are still schools etc. operating. But it is worth checking out. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 12:26 AM

Waveland, Bay St Louis, Long Beach, Boloxi, Gulfport, Pascagoula and Ocean Springs in Mississipi were all hit hard, so was Slidell LA and of course New Orleans. A friend of mine has a sister who is an administrator for a school in New Orleans, they don't expect to be able to open before January.

There is a lot of need.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: GUEST,Barbara Eberly
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 01:11 AM

By all means choose the Salvation Army over the Red Cross. Check online and see how much of your donation goes to "operating expenses" for each of them. You might also check and see what the Red Cross did with the money they got for 9/11. If I recall correctly, they had to be taken to court to force them to use the money for the purpose for which it was collected instead of "saving it for future needs." The alternative is to give to one of the church groups which gives 100% to the victims. If I were you, I would let the students investigate the matter and see what different groups are doing. They can then vote on which group they want to send money to. Each student could take a different group and make a report to the class. Excellent groups which each have a different focus are the Baptist Men's Association, the American Society of Friends, the Methodist Church, Catholic Relief Services, etc. If I remember correctly, the Baptist men specialize in hot meals and the Society of Friends help with rebuilding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 08:32 AM

The US government has been running down the Red Cross for years, as it does with all non-US controlled international organisations. No organisation is perfect, but unless it's Halliburton every minor problem an organisation has will be blown up out of all proportion.

Perhaps this is the time for the schoolchildren to learn that disasters occur outside the US too, and the Red Cross (and Crescent) is there to pick up the pieces all over the world. New Orleans took it bad, but on an international scale their need is small compared to the resources available. Are you queuing up to donate to far poorer victims of the recent tropical storm that left thousands missing and tens of thousands homeless in Bangladesh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 09:40 AM

I think I am the only former chapter manager posting in this thread. I do have info to share, and I prefer to be ASKED for it rather than atttacked into it. Want to know how it actually works? Good Lord, ASK me instead of applying aversion therapy so I don't even want to read your misinformation!!

The Red Cross got into trouble over its fundraising practices over 9/11, yes. Before (or apparently since) 9/11, most people never knew that a donation must be designated as restricted in order for it to BE restricted. If one watches the disaster ads carefully, one will see that the ads never SAY the disaster shown will be the only disaster the money goes for. IMO this is a wrong approach, but it WAS undertaken to build funds for future victims, and I know this for a fact. Still, IMO it was an approach that should have been articulated long before 9/11. I can tell you this-- the organization paid dearly for it, and it's people who NEED the services who got hurt, far beyond any one disaster. Here's why--

At the time of 9/11, the whole US org had been restructuring. It was the tail end of a comprehensive strategic plan mandated and led by Mrs. Dole, tho by the time 9/11 played out she had moved on. In this planning process, the org's place in the world of charities was studied in depth.

One of the first things learned was that people considered it the most trusted name among charities, and that people would donate far more than they HAD been donating, if only they were asked. So national started learning HOW to ask, effectively. By the time I became a chapter manager in 1997, direct mail was bringing in a large amount of money and chapters took on new life in actually delivering the services that the org had become chartered to provide, on a much larger scale.

Our county's failing chapter actually was able to get its head above water for the first time in about 40 years.

One way the funds could be raised effectively, we learned from research, was to show people the face of tragedy and to plan ahead financially at all times for the NEXT disaster. As a result, the national org became much better able to deploy volunteers and money very quickly, into large-scale disasters. Chapters were expected to be able to raise part of the money themselves, for disasters the national org had historically been funding from monies provided in part by the chapter assessments somone slammed, upthread (inaccurately)-- it isn't that a chapter pays $1,000 to carry the name, it's that chapters can only exist as units of a larger effort, and can't act as loose cannons doing only those services they like to do.

Money flows from local to national and back to local, when most needed. For example, the chapter funds the first expenses of opening a shelter, but national money soon kicks in for shelter costs and for individual recipients' vouchering. Then the local chapter goes into fundraising mode to replenish its own local disaster fund, first, and also to contribute to the national disaster fund.

Another learning, around that strategic planing process, was that the white-glove, upper-class image of the leadership pool was keeping the org from meeting real needs. A dedicated effort was undertaken to change the demographics of the volunteer pool. By the time I became a staff member in 1997, it was in full swing in all five lines of service. This more hands-on approach had percolated upstream to the extent that my regional director was himself a real "man-of-the- people" type who understood local urgencies to a fine point.

Another learning was that chapters needed to work with government in a structure that mirrored gummint structures-- chapters needed to be organized along county and state lines, not otherwise. However, at the same time, it was recognized that no chapter could remain a local private club-- it had to do business with sound business management and it had to stand on its own feet and not cry to national every time someone hiccuped. So some chapters began, on their own initiative at first, to consolidate, merge, enlarge.

People who could get things DONE rose to chapter leadership in chapters that could handle a wider area. Small chapters like ours (budget wise) were then encouraged, by national policy, to hook up with larger nearby chapters at least for pooling accounting staff.

IMO this was a mistake-- all of us make those, and in planning one does not always know all the pieces to factor into the plan. While I still staffed a local chapter locally, many of my colleagues and I could see that as chapters lost their strictly-local identity, donors became wary of giving money that they felt would go beyond the local level.

All these factors came together in the worst way with 9/11. The ads seemed to say the money would go to NYC. The FR policy had never been made widely enough known. Red Cross handled the FR around 9/11 just like they had with other large-scale disasters, not realizing the amount of feeling and scrutiny and suspicion that would become part of the nation's culture as a result of having been attacked directly.

On top of this, the gummint named them the org to handle monies and programs they had never handled before, had never had as part of their charter, and some things got mixed up. (I don't say more than that because I don't know the details well enough to describe them-- I had moved on in 2000.)

Local FR dried up and then, the smallest chapters HAD to merge with the larger ones. In our county, this means that there is no one local to know about local school shootings, no one local to know how to work with the local fire companies to get word when there's a family burnt out in a housefire (that's POLITY), no one knows the HS principals well enough to know how to finesse communications over difficult issues involving kids going off to join the Army when some pregnant teen mom wants to find her baby's daddy who has fled our poor economy to the only job he can find-- in a uniform. No one local knows the other local service orgs well enough to turn out a really good blood drive.

When you actively slam the organization-- that's what you are hurting. Not some well-paid national staffer (they are all overworked), but the neighbor who will need clothing, blood, and food. Don't donate, OK-- hey, I don't either-- but it's not necessary to slam them.

I get "crabby" about it because I spent three very stressful and difficult years in the trenches, paid just above minimum wage, to prevent our chapter from folding, only to see it fold anyway a few years later because the delicate networks of support I was able to grow, in my tenure, collapsed in 9/11 acrimony. I had two kids in the service at the time, and I saw the gap in services when we had a family emergency and had a lot of trouble using the Red Cross communication services. But it also made me really resent people who trash the fine work people and the org DO do, instead of stepping forward to make it better during that time we worked so hard to make our local chapter fly.

I really don't think I am having a tantrum, tho-- I am trying to describe a reality some of you have buried under a layer of uninformed bullshit.


Carol, when you first described the lack of service in NOLA, you didn't say it was about safety. It just happens we were away, camping, as Katrina hit, with no news at all for several weeks of aftermath. We have not been able to follow the news as closely as you obviously feel you have, since we got back. I responded with what I know about business as usual in the org, and I spoke not of POLITICS but of POLITY-- there is a distinction and I used the word with intention. Once you clarified your concern, I responded with what I know to be policy. Don't be so quick to include me in your suspicion about an attempt to cover something up-- I just didn't know, when I first posted, what you were talking about, because you didn't SAY what you were talking about.

I wasn't in NOLA to accurately know what led to the decisions made-- I just have a base of actual experience working from the inside. But Carol, you weren't there, either-- isn't possible that BOTH factors-- policy and polity-- went into a decision that people have not been in a position to understand?

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 02:08 PM

Carol, when you first described the lack of service in NOLA, you didn't say it was about safety.


Susan, this could not possibly be more FALSE. Here is the post of mine that you were responding to...

If there was a gap in services it was part of local polity more than other causes.

"This is not entirely true. The Red Cross didn't allow their people to go into Jefferson Parish in Louisana after Katrina until they deemed it "safe". This meant that people in Jefferson Parish went without much needed disaster aid, including water and other essentials, for days. This was a Red Cross policy, not a local government decision.

They also had a standing policy to not let their people operate in New Orleans for safety reasons. This policy was stated by their own people in the public media as recently as July of 2005. The fact that they would be now lying about this and trying to make the local government people responsible for their own administrative decisions makes me not ever want to trust the Red Cross."


And here is the definition of the word, "polity"...


Main Entry: pol�i�ty
Pronunciation: 'p�-l&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Late Latin politia -- more at POLICE
1 : political organization
2 : a specific form of political organization
3 : a politically organized unit
4 a : the form or constitution of a politically organized unit b : the form of government of a religious denomination.


Were you saying that it's because of the "polity" of the Red Cross organization?


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 02:37 PM

Carol, thank you. I confused this from dianavan with your later post: some think that there is a question about their lack of action in New Orleans I thought both came from you, and I was wrong, but my point about it still stands.

I did respond to dianavan's initial, general allegation with a description of how the polity BTWEEN UNITS works as regards Red Cross-- one unit being the Red Cross and the other unit being gummint.

Polity is about how things happen; politics is about making things happen. Do you see the difference? Politics is about applied pressure; polity is about the culture imposed on an entity by its structure, within which the pressures (politics) can be applied.

As it regards Red Cross, it isn't "politics" that keep the two units in sometimes-awkward juxtaposition, it's their indivudual polities and the polity formed by their policies about one another, when they interact together. This is not an abstract or splitting hairs-- there is a disctinct culture of disaster relief delicately maintained by the two units, and anyone in the Red Cross or any level of gummint emergency services could tell you about it. In some ways, each is autonomous and bound only by their own policies; in other ways, and at the same time, there are ways they have to discover to work together despite their policies. That's a web of relationships that generate a particular culture, that can be summed up as their polity. But that doesn't mean either is playing politics with or against the other. The nonprofit world is full of these delicate relationships. In the Red Cross we used to sum it up like this-- to lead in the Red Cross you need a for-profit head and a non-profit heart-- to be an opportunist governed by morality.

I still don't think it's fair to inply or say I was ducking or covering or shifting blame, since you yourself acknowledge that your more specific allegation was posted after my response about polity. You seem to say I was being disingenuous when in fact I was replying as openly and helpfully as possible to two different issues that had been raised. When you raised the safety issue I responded with information relevant to that issue. How is that a coverup?

Also I did not "blame" the gummint for the safety policy's application in action-- I don't think BLAME comes into it at all. I think a closer understanding of what people actually intended and thought, and within what limitations they had to make choices, might result in looking at the incident with understanding instead of blame.

If all you want to do is fix blame-- you are going to have to get a whole lot closer to the real sitation than you ever can from reading about it. I've been closer to it than you have.

Now, what else can I help you understand about the Red Cross today?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 03:16 PM

"I was replying as openly and helpfully as possible to two different issues that had been raised."

Susan,

With all due respect, You were not being helpful, you ranted for a couple of paragraphs then told everyone else who had tried to be helpful in their own way to "Grow up".

We were not "slamming" the Red Cross. It was a matter of giving our opinion on where is the best place a group of school kids can send their money to help Katrina victims. Not the victims of the next disater, but victims of this one.

Having written what you have written on this thread, I don't see how even you could say that the Red Cross would be the best place for these kids to send their money. So since that question has been decided and Dianivan has chosen a good course, why aren't we done?


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 03:22 PM

Your response still doesn't resolve the problem of misinformation being spread by the Red Cross about its lack of response in some situations, and trying to place blame for this on local governments. I am willing to take your word for it that you have not done so, but the Red Cross has been doing this quite blatantly since Katrina. And in doing so, they are hurting the very people they are purporting to be helping. You don't need to tell me anything more about the Red Cross. Right now, I know all I need to know about them. I don't trust people who lie to me and try to mislead me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 03:29 PM

Jack,

I didn't accuse anyone in specific in what you call my "rant," so I'm sorry you apparently chose to take my comments personally. I am not recommending any place to send donations-- I believe people can make up their own minds.

Why I wasn't "done" is because info was requested and a significant amount of misinformation was supplied. Since I realized that my frustration may have made it hard to see some of the infromation as information, after sleeping on it and continuing to think about the issues raised, I took responsibility for that frustration, explained it, and posted additional thoughts and information. (Are you against people continuing to reflect upon important issues?)

I'm supplying information about how the organization actually functions; as time permits and people ask (or supply wrong information), I'll continue to do that.

If anyone else isn't "done," I'd suggest you ask them why not, since mine has not been the only post since dianavan's decision was communicated.

Perhaps you'd share why you aren't done, for example?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 03:32 PM

Your response still doesn't resolve the problem of misinformation being spread by the Red Cross about its lack of response in some situations, and trying to place blame for this on local governments.

Carol, I'm sorry, but I don't know that they have done this, or that your present view of it is informed enough for me to take your word for it. You seem to have made up your mind about it without actually knowing what exactly happened, how, or why.

It's not my behavior, so it's not something I can-- or would-- defend. In fact, I am not attempting to defend tham at all-- merely to offer whatever information I do actually have.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 05:51 PM

Susan,

Are you saying that when you addressed Carol specifically you actually were not speaking to her or when you criticise specific behaviors and words on this thread you do not mean to criticize the originators?

If so I apologize for misunderstanding you.

The whole thing is rather odd because what you said about the Red Cross as an insider is the most damning.

Lets try to wrp this up without any more insults.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: GUEST,G
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 09:05 PM

This is not an insult but an observation; CarolC, after reading over this thread, you seem to enjoy being a negative person.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 03:34 PM

Guest, G, I've noticed that rather than discussing issues, you prefer to make personal attacks. To each his or her own, I guess.

You seem to have made up your mind about it without actually knowing what exactly happened, how, or why.

Susan, this is an assumption, and it is incorrect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 03:41 PM

Yes, Carol, "seem" indicates a conclusion has been drawn from observable behavior. But if you actually were in NOLA at the Red Cross/Emergency Services meetings that led to the actions taken/not taken, I apologize!

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: GUEST,G
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 04:13 PM

CarolC, I was trying to imply that you do so much negative stuff that it appears you are attacking. I was not clever enough.

A good question, however, and something I might have missed. Were you in NOLA at the Red Cross/Emergency Services meetings?

But, I have been in contact with personnel there on an average of 3 -4 times per week and I am convinced you have not talked to an onscene volunteer. With the lack of correct information being published the first several weeks, one has to be negative to begin with in order to to post some of the things you do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 05 - 12:03 PM

Your questions, Susan and GuestG are straw men, since I am not addressing the issue of what was discussed at the Red Cross meetings. I am addressing what the Red Cross has said publicly. Nice attempt at obfuscation, however. But the fact that you are attempting to obfuscate is a part of the problem I am talking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Need info about the Red Cross
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 03:54 AM

Actually, Paul Burke, our school children will wait to fundraise for their chosen school in Mississippi because we don't want that fundraiser to conflict with their annual UNICEF contribution.

Our students are learning that life for some children can be very difficult. If they can make life a little brighter for other children, I will support them. Their concern is genuine and where the needy children actually live, has very little relevance to elementary school children.

Funny how that almost innate concern for others seems to disappear as we grow older...

We have to qualify it by constructing artificial, soci-political
boundaries.


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