BS: Black looters, white finders

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:58 AM

" In the midst of rescue efforts, trying to pull off the logistics of a presidential appearance would be near criminal in its selfish political posturing. I have always hated presidents using disasters as photo-ops. There could hardly be a less meaningful, more selfish thing for a president to do during a disaster" John Hardly

If you really mean that, John, what is your opinion of the president being there today?

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: zelger
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:57 AM

Oh come on. New Orleans is 70% black. white americans have suffered disasters before, natural and unatural. they have suffered depressions. They did not respond via crime on the scale we are seeing in new orleans today. rape, pillage, murder, seems a fitting epitaph for multi-racial harmony america.

only wooly thinking liberals in cuckoo land believe this outbreak is nothing to do with black people in new orleans. it is the product of a welfare system supporting huge % of blacks dissapearing over night. Once the hand that feeds them is removed they resort to crime.

Oh and by the way, i have relatives in new orleans. fuck liberalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 06:32 AM

Obviously, Ebbie, I don't like it. I don't like the no-win situation that has a president damned if he does (by the likes of me) and damned if he doesn't (by soft-headed thinkers who believe that a presidential appearance is "doing something"). Anything a president can do, he can do from a distance.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,An Englishman Abroad`
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:46 AM

There has been a lot of talk about lack of funding. The Presidents spokesman in a press conference said no funding had been with held. Below is an extract from Fact Check .org the web site said to be reliable by the Vice President.

It seems to me that no matter what the situation the political bull shit must go on. What is so wrong about saying we #$%^&* up. The man who has never made a mistake has never done anything.

The point is this. It must have been known that there would be thousands who would not be able to make it out if there was such a desaster. So are they expendable, do they not matter because they are the poor. I used to be glad that I had been born at a time when there was so much advance and to be around when it started, but have we advanced. I think those at the top and some of those at the bottom are a selfish lot of bastards who could not care less about anyone.

Below is the extract from Fact check .org

Is Bush to Blame for New Orleans Flooding?
He did slash funding for levee projects. But the Army Corps of Engineers says Katrina was just too strong.

September 2, 2005

Summary



Some critics are suggesting President Bush was as least partly responsible for the flooding in New Orleans. In a widely quoted opinion piece, former Clinton aide Sidney Blumenthal says that "the damage wrought by the hurricane may not entirely be the result of an act of nature," and cites years of reduced funding for federal flood-control projects around New Orleans.

Our fact-checking confirms that Bush indeed cut funding for projects specifically designed to strengthen levees. Indeed, local officials had been complaining about that for years.

It is not so clear whether the money Bush cut from levee projects would have made any difference, however, and we're not in a position to judge that. The Army Corps of Engineers – which is under the President's command and has its own reputation to defend – insists that Katrina was just too strong, and that even if the levee project had been completed it was only designed to withstand a category 3 hurricane.



Analysis



We suspect this subject will get much more attention in Congress and elsewhere in the coming months. Without blaming or absolving Bush, here are the key facts we've been able to establish so far:

Bush Cut Funding

Blumenthal's much-quoted article in salon.com carried the headline: "No one can say they didn't see it coming." And it said the Bush administration cut flood-control funding "to pay for the Iraq war."

He continues:

Blumenthal: With its main levee broken, the evacuated city of New Orleans has become part of the Gulf of Mexico . But the damage wrought by the hurricane may not entirely be the result of an act of nature.

…By 2003 the federal funding for the flood control project essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war. In 2004, the Bush administration cut funding requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent. Additional cuts at the beginning of this year…forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze.

We can confirm that funding was cut. The project most closely associated with preventing flooding in New Orleans was the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers' Hurricane Protection Project, which was "designed to protect residents between Lake Pontchartrain and the Missisippi River levee from surges in Lake Pontchartrain," according to a fact sheet from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. (The fact sheet is dated May 23, long before Katrina). The multi-decade project involved building new levees, enlarging existing levees, and updating other protections like floodwalls. It was scheduled to be completed in 2015.

Over at least the past several budget cycles, the Corps has received substantially less money than it requested for the Lake Pontchartrain project, even though Congress restored much of the money the President cut from the amount the Corps requested.

In fiscal year 2004, the Corps requested $11 million for the project. The President's budget allocated $3 million, and Congress furnished $5.5 million. Similarly, in fiscal 2005 the Corps requested $22.5 million, which the President cut to $3.9 million in his budget. Congress increased that to $5.5 million. "This was insufficient to fund new construction contracts," according to a U.S. Army Corps of Engineers' project fact sheet. The Corps reported that "seven new contracts are being delayed due to lack funds" [sic].

The President proposed $3 million for the project in the budget for fiscal 2006, which begins Oct. 1. "This will be insufficient to fund new construction projects," the fact sheet stated. It says the Corps "could spend $20 million if funds were provided." The Corps of Engineers goes on to say:

Army Corps of Engineers, May 23: In Orleans Parish, two major pump stations are threatened by hurricane storm surges. Major contracts need to be awarded to provide fronting protection for them. Also, several levees have settled and need to be raised to provide the design protection. The current funding shortfalls in fiscal year 2005 and fiscal year 2006 will prevent the Corps from addressing these pressing needs.

The Corps has seen cutbacks beyond those affecting just the Lake Pontchartrain project. The Corps oversees SELA, or the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control project, which Congress authorized after six people died from flooding in May 1995. The Times-Picayune newspaper of New Orleans reported that, overall, the Corps had spent $430 million on flood control and hurricane prevention, with local governments offering more than $50 million toward the project. Nonetheless, "at least $250 million in crucial projects remained," the newspaper said.

In the past five years, the amount of money spent on all Corps construction projects in the New Orleans district has declined by 44 percent, according to the New Orleans CityBusiness newspaper, from $147 million in 2001 to $82 million in the current fiscal year, which ends Sept. 30.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:07 AM

only wooly thinking liberals in cuckoo land believe this outbreak is nothing to do with black people in new orleans. it is the product of a welfare system supporting huge % of blacks dissapearing over night. Once the hand that feeds them is removed they resort to crime.

zelger, you're a bigot.

You know nothing, none of us does, about the makeup of the gangs with guns in New Orleans right now. We can guess at the percentages of racial makeup, but the dynamic that is going on there right now has never had an equal in the U.S.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:22 AM

A bigot?

Well done. my post challenged your opinion you called me a nasty name.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:51 AM

"...only wooly thinking liberals in cuckoo land believe this outbreak is nothing to do with black people in new orleans..."
zelger; 03 Sep 05 - 05:57 AM

-snip-

Well in a way, Zelger, your comment is kinda funny. But I don't find in ha ha funny. At least you didn't say nappy [or even worse kinky] thinking liberals...

And Zelger, I believe the vast majority of wooly haired Black folks still in New Orleans are law abiding citizens who worked low paying jobs and weren't able to afford a car.

And speaking of welfare-what do you call those huge government corporate subsidies that are always being passed [not to mention the tax breaks]? Maybe you think those are just jim dandy because doing that is standard operating procedure and not the result of "wooly thinking".

I would guess that most of the people who benefit from those handouts are straight haired people and not wooly haired folks.

And the beat goes on...

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: JennyO
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:09 AM

I posted this on another thread, but I think it bears repeating - it's the best story I've heard so far coming out of this sad mess and seems appropriate for this thread. I can't help wondering though how the young man in question will be treated over what he did. I think it would be outrageous if he ended up in trouble for looting under the circumstances, and I certainly hope he doesn't. In my eyes he is a hero!

I'll post it as well as linking to it, in case the link doesn't last. There is a video of a report on it there as well.

Taking refuge in the Astrodome

Thursday, September 01, 2005   Updated: 11:32 AM

HOUSTON -- NEWSCHANNEL 5 crews were in Houston as some desperate refugees arrived in a stolen bus.

HOUSTON -- Thousands of refugees of Hurricane Katrina were transported to the Astrodome in Houston this week. In an extreme act of looting, one group actually stole a bus to escape ravaged areas in Louisiana.

About 100 people packed into the stolen bus. They were the first to enter the Houston Astrodome, but they weren't exactly welcomed.

The big yellow school bus wasn't expected or approved to pass through the stadium's gates. Randy Nathan, who was on the bus, said they were desperate to get out of town.

"If it werent for him right there," he said, "we'd still be in New Orleans underwater. He got the bus for us."

Eighteen-year-old Jabbor Gibson jumped aboard the bus as it sat abandoned on a street in New Orleans and took control.

"I just took the bus and drove all the way here...seven hours straight,' Gibson admitted. "I hadn't ever drove a bus."

The teen packed it full of complete strangers and drove to Houston. He beat thousands of evacuees slated to arrive there.

"It's better than being in New Orleans," said fellow passenger Albert McClaud, "we want to be somewhere where we're safe."

During a long and impatient delay, children popped their heads out of bus windows and mothers clutched their babies.

One 8-day-old infant spent the first days of his life surrounded by chaos. He's one of the many who are homeless and hungry.

Authorities eventually allowed the renegade passengers inside the dome. But the 18-year-old who ensured their safety could find himself in a world of trouble for stealing the school bus.

"I dont care if I get blamed for it ," Gibson said, "as long as I saved my people."

Sixty legally chartered buses were expected to arrive in Houston throughout the night. Thousands of people will be calling the Astrodome "home," at least for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,zelger
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:49 AM

And Zelger, I believe the vast majority of wooly haired Black folks still in New Orleans are law abiding citizens who worked low paying jobs and weren't able to afford a car.

I didn't say they weren't law abiding folk. I said the vast majority of looters in New Orleans are black. fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:59 AM

THE FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS FOR CONGRESS

When they come back to session the FIRST item
on their agenda is the estate tax law and cutting taxes for people who make over $16 million a year.

(this is part of their ecomomic stimulus package)

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 12:19 PM

If the shoe fits, zelger.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 02:03 PM

As Wolfgang pointed out, "lootimg" is a loaded term. It appears that taking the things you and your family need from shops and so forth in a distaster is more likely to be called looting" if you are black in America than if you arewhite.

That's not "looting" when it's people doing what they need to do to survive. In fact people have every right to do so. And in fact a moral duty to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,zelger
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:57 PM

Someone needs to make a distinction between foraging (scavenging) for survival, and looting for gain.

Here is a distinction, rape is not survival, it is horrific barabarism, and foraging for food is basic survival instinct.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 04:06 PM

No one, except some of you who post here, has claimed that black people "loot" while white people "find." You choose to select one photo caption and magnify it into a symptom of the kind of widespread, flagrant racism that disappeared from the national news media even before World War II.

No one has yet been reported "shot for looting." No sane prosecutor files charges against people taking food and water to survive a catastrophe, because (among other things) no jury would convict.

The young man who stole the school bus "could be" in a "world of trouble" in Orwell's 1984 but in fact he is NOT in trouble in the USA.

Whatever one may think of the war in Iraq, there is no evidence and no reason to conclude that troops sent there or money spent has had the slightest effect on recue operations. (1/3 of the local Guard units are overseas, but there are many thousands left, and many more in nearby states.)

The obsessive idiotic blaming of G. W. Bush for every aspect of this disaster, with barely a mention of the thousands of others from Congressmen, Governors, Mayors, Generals, on down to the lowliest confused Guardsman must have some Freudian explanation. Bush is not the only one who can be described as seeing things solely in black and white.

The constant reiteration of these ideas tells me more than I wish to know about how so many of you think. I'm old and I'm tired of it.

So I'm signing out of this place permanently. Goodbye.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 04:08 PM

Anyone who closely followed the situation on the news channels saw 'looting' of stores for food, water and necessities, by police as well as by the citizens and tourists. Pictures showed police (while they were still trying to do their job) booting louts out of stores where they were liberating items that had nothing to do with survival, but leaving people seeking necessities alone.

All this blather about a word. Taking that which doesn't belong to you is a common middle class American definition of looting; of course that word will be used and I see no reason to 'load' it with racial meaning.

It must also be said that it is impossible for the average middle class white person from outside a setting such as New Orleans, including the newspeople with CNN and MSNBC, (at least a few of whom are not white but belong to the middle class), news reporters, etc. to avoid comments that appear racial since they (I should add we?) are covering people and situations outside of their experience. Most of them are trying to do the job they are paid to do.

In their minds, many people still equate poverty only with blacks. It has not yet sunk in that Hispanics are now the second largest group in the U. S. and many of them are poor. If this had been a catastrophe in a city such as San Antonio, would this thread have been different?

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 04:45 PM

I note that if you click on the link to those pictures Wolfgang gave in his opening post, you now get a Yahoo "error message" - Sorry, Unable to process request at this time -- error 999.

Which is one way to deal with this kind of thing. The Internet Airbrush technique.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:04 PM

But this link from The Age in Australia still works to show you what he was on about - Finders looters

"The official AP caption for the pic on the left: "A young man walks through chest deep flood water after looting a grocery store in New Orleans on Tuesday." The AFP caption for the pic on the right: "Two residents wade through chest-deep water after finding bread and soda from a local grocery store in New Orleans, Louisiana." Guess which is white and which is black, and then click on the link to check. My my, who'd have guessed...

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:06 PM

I don't get that. I find "Picture 1" (the "looting" one) is still there but "Picture 2" (the "finding one") has been removed at the request of AFP.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 05:14 PM

That link you've given is misleading McGrath as both pictures appear to come from AFP which going by the Yahoo site was not the case. I still fail to understand the fuss about this.

On the Yahoo site:

Picture 1 was taken and captioned by AP
Picture 2 was taken and captioned by AFP

The pictures were selected by Yahoo, quite possibly by different people and at different times.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 06:42 PM

Both pictures are still there on the "The Age" site I linked to in that last post. And the caption from that site which I included in that post very clearly identified which was AFP and which was AP.

"I still fail to understand the fuss about this." In a situation where the official line is that there will be "zero tolerance" for "looters", and a shoot-to-kill policy, the distinction between "looting" and "finding" makes rather a difference. And the indication in this captions that for at least some people that distinction might rest on the colour of a person's skin is pretty disturbing.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 06:51 PM

One observation I have made in this though is that, going by the picture that was removed (and forgetting any opinions formed by viewing the 2 pictures side by side), there could be more sensitivity over the idea of people taking property that wasn't thiers being described as "finding" than as "looting".

On that all I can say is call it what you will, there is no doubt in my mind that, if faced with similar circumstances, I'd have done the same if I could and I suspect most people would.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:03 PM

Well McGrath, we must be using different browsers or something the picture I see on the page you link to is a merged picture of the 2. click here

Underneath it is the single line of source which gives.

Photo: AFP

The distinction is made in the accompanying text but the damage has already been done.


And the indication in this captions that for at least some people that distinction might rest on the colour of a person's skin is pretty disturbing.

If you are willing to put the actions of several different people together on that basis, yes but I think the odds are 99999999:1 on you and others putting 2+2 and making 6.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:13 PM

Oh and I will lay bets that that single line of source under the 2 pictures was rather more willful that AFP, AP and Yahoo conspiring together to devise this subtle means of what might be read into it if the 2 pictures are viewed together.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:29 PM

Ho Hum

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 08:15 PM

Hey, people ! I offered a different explanation of those captions at the very beginning of this thread ! Anybody read it ? Is it that ridiculous ?

AP yanked both photos. Which means "cover up," right ? Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Guy Who Thinks, Q, right on, tell it !

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:48 PM

"The obsessive idiotic blaming of G. W. Bush for every aspect of this disaster, with barely a mention of the thousands of others from Congressmen, Governors, Mayors, Generals, on down to the lowliest confused Guardsman must have some Freudian explanation. Bush is not the only one who can be described as seeing things solely in black and white."

You're absolutely right. George Bush is not alone in all of this. In fact, I blame everyone who voted for him. Only a moron would vote for such a greedy, self centered, ego-maniac.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:41 PM

Well, well, well......

First of all, this ain't mississippitom... It's the Bobert...

Now I ain't read this entire thread since I been holed up in a danged recordin' studio but if this ain't been said then it needs to be said....

Gonna piss off some folks but, hey...

New Orleans is 76 % black and over half of the black population lives uner the poverty level...

If Katrina had hit Appilacia in southern Wes Ginny you'd be seein' white folks doin' 'xactly what yer seein black folks doin' in New Orleans....

Yeah, the Bush administartion and his media bed buddies are tryin' to use any distaction to keep the simple fact that Bush hasn'r funded improvements to the levee's, hasn't funded first reponders and now wnat to put all their failures on the backs of black folks...

Hmmmmm, sound familiar???

If there was ever "Evidence A" in mot allowing drunk frat boys to run America this oughtta be it...

Bobert (not tom)

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:09 PM

I now think I should have known better when I started this thread, but actually I didn't and no thread is the property of the first poster. So I can't really complain of what you have made of this. I can only be glad that some have understood.

If I had wanted to make a remark about the present disaster and the reaction to it I wouldn't have started an extra thread. M.Ted is far off the mark.

If I had wanted to comment about racism or not in the USA I wouldn't have started with an example from German TV language.

For me, it was about (hidden) prejudices possibly influencing the language one uses. That includes me, BTW. The pictures were just the most recent example I stumbled upon. Of course, that is close to nothing in comparison to what else has happened in NO and I'm the first to agree that whoever would give me a drink and would save me from drowning could call me any name he liked.

It was just two completely different themes for me and all the wholists who think one cannot discuss language separately from a disaster are just not at the same wavelength with me. I sometimes even start a music thread on the same day a disaaster happens.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:49 PM

Cason Announces Initial BIA Response to Aid Tribal Victims of Hurricane Katrina

I don't believe this group has been mentioned at all. They are the truly invisible in the region.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: ddw
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 05:10 PM

I can't read any more of the sycophantic claptrap and drivel agreeing with Wolfgang on this, so maybe somebody else had pointed this out before....

Do you know that the photographers didn't watch HOW the items in question were acquired? Or are you just showing your knee-jerk need to think you're better than other people (i.e. the writers of the captions) by assuming they're slanting things in a way you don't like?

Seems to me you're saying a lot more about your own ignorance and prejudice toward   others than you are about the verity of the captions.

Truth is, I don't know if these items were found or looted and neither do you, so damning the media as "racist" for using words which may be accurate is just showing your lack of any real basis for your opinions.

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:07 PM

Press photographers don't generally have too much control over what caption is put under their pictures. In the case of pictures like this, in a situation like that, it seems extremely unlikely that any photographer or reporter would have been in a position to gather and pass on the kind of specific information ddw posits.

Far more likely it would have been a matter of people in news agency offices far away from New Orleans writing captions in a hurry on the basis of what they see in front of their eyes, and how they interpret it.

Wolfgang has explained the point he was making pretty straightforwardly. It's not a question of calculating distortion, carried out by people with some racist agenda. It's that people are unconsciously predisposed, by all kinds of factors, to make assumptions about what they see with their eyes, and stereotypes about colour can come into that.   This was an example of how it can work.

I think it is fair to say that, presented with those two pictures without any caption, a lot of white people, who are in no way consciously racist, would be likely to make the same assumption that the caption writer for AP is reasonably suspected of making.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:35 PM

I think it is fair to say that, presented with those two pictures without any caption, a lot of white people, who are in no way consciously racist, would be likely to make the same assumption that the caption writer for AP is reasonably suspected of making.

But I think it is also reasonable to assume that a lot of white writers would have made the same assumption had the photo been of a white person.

I remain bemused by this. Had it been the same organisation even producing the pictures, I might open up to a some possibility. Had it been the same writer, there certainly would be questions to ask...

As it stands though, the only way I can read it is that there are simply too many variables to reach any firm conclusion and there are plenty of (more likely IMO) reasons why this could have occured without bringing in the race card.

I think things as iffy as this actually do the race issues a disservice. And their remains a far bigger race issue, one that I don't believe several innocent possibilities exist for. Quite simply (and basing this now on more I've read):

How come there are such a high % of black Americans near or below the poverty line in NO? As far as I can make out, they comprise rather more than they do in the overall 67% average of the total population.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:45 PM

But I think it is also reasonable to assume that a lot of white writers would have made the same assumption had the photo been of a white person.

And to repeat what I said before, the picture removed was the "finding" one (by AFP). It may not be the case but in the absence of further informations, one could reasonably assume from that removal that many people were not happy at seeing this activity described as "finding" (even though it was carried out by white people) was in itself controversial. One could also ask why the one described as "looting" still remains on Yahoos site.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:50 PM

I gave a plausible explanation for both captions at the beginning of the thread, and then I repeated it a couple of days ago.

To no avail.

So from now on, I'm staying above the line. Some of these threads really are bull shit.

Have a nice day !

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:59 PM

Lighter. The main point in your first post reads:

I suspect that the photographer asked the people where they got the stuff, and one said "Um, we found it outside the store" and the other, maybe more truthfully, said "Everybody was grabbing things so I just took what I needed."

I note you refer to the photographer in the singular and suggest he asked the two people. Given that one pic and caption was sourced by Yahoo via AFP and the other via AP, I do think you reasoning is unlikely.

t is possible of course that 2 photographers/writers may have done the same thing but it does seem to me that you are ignoring certain facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:13 PM

Oh and lighter. This may sound bad but I am being honest here. Why I didn't respond to your post yesterday is that even though I am English, I do struggle at times with the American style:

Anybody read it ? Is it that ridiculous ? AP yanked both photos. Which means "cover up," right ? Damned if they do, damned if they don't Guy Who Thinks, Q, right on, tell it !

By that stage I wasn't sure whether you were telling Q (s)he was right or wrong and didn't feel like questioning to find out or debating on my best guess as to what you meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:18 PM

You're really thinking the photographers would have jumped down into the water from whatever place the photo was taken (a helicopter? a high builidng?) and carried out some kind of on the spot interview?

As I read it, this isn't about pointing a finger at some picture editor or agency.

The point is, just imagine you flashed those photos in front of people of your acquaintance, and asked them what they saw.

If the kind of racial preconceptions that skew the way we interpret the world were just confined to out and out racists, that would be a wonderful thing. Unfortunately they ain't.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:27 PM

McGrath. it's not impossible that you are right but I still think the odds are against you and I suspect the more unusual description in this instance was "finding". (Which as far as I can see is supported by the fact the "Finding" photo has been removed).

I'd bet most journalists would call that activity looting regardless of colour of skin. From the other side, there is no guarantee that the journalist who described the activity as finding not doing the same had the photo (s)he had been of a balck person.

I find it dangerous to draw such conculsions you do on such thin evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:29 PM

Be reasonable. McGarth, you are drawing one hell of a conclusion based on a random sample of 2 journalists/ agencies?

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:42 PM

Jon, there has been alot of discussion in the blogosphere, in the main stream media, and in direct conversations about these two photo captions.

Because of their stark differences in wording, they have become symbolical or symtomatic of the often unconscious bias that the media and others have against Black people.

Because personal and institutional racism still exist in the USA, regardless of the true intent of the caption writers, I say more power to this discussion. I say this is with the hope that it may challenge people to be aware of the often subtle and hidden prejudices that some exist in the main stream media, and sometimes within themselves.

Can there be eradication of racism without acknowledgement that it still exist? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:50 PM

[Ohoooo I have been needing to make corrections to posts all night..These discussions touch me greatly and I need to take some deep breathes, use preview, and otherwise 'slow my roll" as the hip hopper say}.

See this correction:

"I say this is with the hope that it may challenge people to be aware of the often subtle and hidden prejudices that still exist in the main stream media, and sometimes within themselves."

-snip-

Maybe I should have said "sometimes within ourselves". Though Lord knows [in the face of great provocation] I really am trying not to be prejudiced and trying to eradicate any prejudice that I have.

How an African American [or a non-African American] an live in the US of A and not ever be prejudiced I don't know. Given the poisonous mass media, education system etc etc IMHO, we all have some eradication work to do.


Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:52 PM

What conclusion do you think I'm drawing? I think you misunderstand the point I'm making. I'm not actually drawing any conclusion about the photographer or the ab]gencies. I was focussing on the different way that people can see the same image, and how it can reflect preconceoptions about "race".
..........................................

Though I'd question whether too many intelligent and honourable journalist - and there are plenty such - would automatically use the term "looting" to describe people taking food and essential supplies from abandoned shops in a disaster such as this. But that's another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:54 PM

okay- I didn't practice what I preached.

Here's what I meant to write

"How an African American [or a non-African American] can live in the US of A and not ever be prejudiced I don't know. "

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:12 PM

Here is another view. An extract:

The Associated Press said its policy was clear. "When we see people go into businesses and come out with goods, we call it looting," said Santiago Lyon, AP's director of photography. "When we just see them carrying things down the road, we call it carrying items."

Lyon said the photographer who took Tuesday's photo, Dave Martin, had seen the man go into the store and take out the items.

As for the other photo, Getty said it stood by its caption and its photographer, Chris Graythen, who says the subjects of his photo were simply picking up items floating by in the dank waters.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:18 PM

Jon, sorry but that explanation is pure deluxe Bull S***.

[I guess it's fitting. After all this is a BS thread.]

But this is far too serious. I mean less we forget these people were in a Category 4 hurricane with no support from the Red Cross, FEMA, etc etc.

The Black person who was described as looting wasn't carring a television set or jewlery. I've read that he was carrying a box of pampers or a boz of food-one or the other.

Looting? Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:20 PM

The Black person who was described as looting wasn't carring a television set or jewlery

Nor was it suggested that he was.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: ddw
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:38 PM

Sorry, McGrath, but I don't think you know the new-gathering process if you think the photographer doesn't have any control over the captions on his pictures. Every paper I ever worked for or know about considers it damned near a firing offence for a photog to come back without solid information about whatever he/she has taken shots of.

Editor try to put things in readable language, but they don't generally extrapolate off what they see to reflect their own prejudices and they certainly don't get to the professional level of a wire service or major newspaper without being pretty sensitive to the kind of thing Wolfgang et al are accusing them of ignoring.

I don't find it too much of a stretch to believe a photojournalist watched something happening and then reported it, do you?

ddw

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Sidewalk Bob
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:06 PM

Yeah, the Bush PR/Big Corpoarte Media have control of the story an' so what we are gettin' is nuthin' but Karl "Mad Scientist" Rove's view of what is happenin' in New Orleans...

You ever wonder why when the story breaks, it's Rove 'n his corporate bed-buddies who control the story??? Then we get the retraction on page A-17 when their lies are exposed???

Hey, I ain't sayin' that some TV's weren't stolen... TV's are stolen in every major city every friggin' night of the year... Like big whup... But Rove, knowin' that his "boy" (Bush) was in deep manure brillently decided that the reason that his "boy" was in deep manure was because of some kid in New Orleans who has grown up like an caged animal in a housing project stole a TV??????

Like, ahhhhhhy, what am I missin' here??? Yeah, it was Rove who played the "race card" and he played it real early!!!!

I can here the conversation now:

Rove to one of his ABC/NBC/FOX/CBS buddies: "Get me some pictures of some black kids taking TV's..."

This makes me sick!!! No, make that sicker than sick...

Bottom line, Bush screwed the heck up while intent on redisributin' wealth from the working and poor folks to his corporate bnuddies and has now been caught (again) and Karl Rove is pullion' every lever in the cab tryin' to get the train to slow down...

Here's hopin' that train got a mi9nd of it's own...

Time for the Bush/Cheney/Rove regime to go down...

Sidewalk Bob, alias Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:10 PM

Europe Readies Katrina Aid to Send to U.S.
September 05, 2005

BRUSSELS, Belgium - European nations on Monday prepared aid teams, food rations, water pumps and even cruise ships to help U.S. regions hit by Hurricane Katrina. Countries large and small have offered aid - from tiny Luxembourg's beds and blankets to half a million food rations from Germany and Britain. Greece put on standby two cruise ships to house refugees and Sweden has offered aircraft to help distribute aid shipments, said Barbara Helfferich, a European Union spokeswoman.

Helfferich said an EU aid coordinator would go to the United States soon to help ensure aid goes to victims of Katrina in Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi. U.S. authorities made a rare request for help from Europe over the weekend, asking for anything from diapers and baby formula to forklifts and veterinarian supplies.

Aid flights from overseas will be directed and to Little Rock Air Force Base in Arkansas, unloaded there, and have the material sent to the affected regions to the south, said Air Force Lt. Jon Quinlan. "We've contracted semi-truck drivers to drive the cargo to the Gulf Coast starting tomorrow," Quinlan said. The first plane including food rations arrived Monday from Britain and was unloaded in preparation for the seven-hour drive to New Orleans.

"The United States has been enormously grateful for the outpouring of support both emotional and concrete from allies over the past week," said Victoria Nuland, the U.S. ambassador to NATO. NATO officials said the alliance was coordinating offers of food, shelter and other aid from several allies, including Germany, Canada and Norway which was offering navy divers as well as 10,000 blankets. Latvia and France were preparing to send disaster relief teams.

Non-NATO members were also working with the alliance disaster coordination center, including Switzerland and Russia, which has offered generators, tents and 10,000 meals.

Germany and Britain had already sent 570,000 emergency food rations over the weekend, while Luxembourg was preparing to send a team of five aid experts, two jeeps, and bedding. The Netherlands had deployed a naval frigate, which was transporting drinking water, medical supplies and much needed helicopters.

Many European countries have pledged to release parts of their strategic oil and gas reserves to stabilize global oil supplies. Bangladesh, an impoverished delta nation that is regularly buffeted by cyclones and floods, pledged $1 million and offered the services of rescuers and disaster experts.

A Mexican ship loaded with supplies set sail on Monday from the Gulf Coast port of Tampico, and the country has set up consular offices in trailers around the disaster zone to help some of the estimated 140,000 Mexicans who live in the region, 10,000 of them in New Orleans.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said last week no aid offer would be refused.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:20 PM

There was a good segment on Aus TV last night - a reporter went among the (all black) population and the story went to great detail how the people taking items from wrecked shops were ignoring luxury food and just taking basics. He followed one guy who also took some chips and drinks as well (we have some kids here, he said) and followed him as he distributed most of it on his way home. Police cars waved to the guy as they drove past - but there was a white reporter team with him. The guy said the police weren't bothering most people trying to get food.

One elderly lady who said she used to be a night club singer was fearful of taking a bunch of limp flowers with her juice and bread - the reporter said they would die in a few days anyway so it would be all right.