BS: Black looters, white finders

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 07:38 AM

"Brown is the new black" sounds good but actually, when it comes to African American skin complexions, since at least the mid 17th century we have been black [deep to somewhat}, brown {in all its shades including light to dark reddish brown}, "light bright, and damn near white" {to quote a widely known Black saying}, and white itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 07:47 AM

With regard to the Hispanic {Latino/Latina} category, yes Q, I am aware that this is an ethnic and not a racial category.

See this excerpt for one online opinion regarding the terms "Hispanic" & "Latino":

Though often used interchangeably in American English, Hispanic and Latino are not identical terms, and in certain contexts the choice between them can be significant. Hispanic, from the Latin word for "Spain," has the broader reference, potentially encompassing all Spanish-speaking peoples in both hemispheres and emphasizing the common denominator of language among communities that sometimes have little else in common. Latino—which in Spanish means "Latin" but which as an English word is probably a shortening of the Spanish word latinoamericano—refers more exclusively to persons or communities of Latin American origin. Of the two, only Hispanic can be used in referring to Spain and its history and culture; a native of Spain residing in the United States is a Hispanic, not a Latino, and one cannot substitute Latino in the phrase the Hispanic influence on native Mexican cultures without garbling the meaning. In practice, however, this distinction is of little significance when referring to residents of the United States, most of whom are of Latin American origin and can theoretically be called by either word.•A more important distinction concerns the sociopolitical rift that has opened between Latino and Hispanic in American usage. For a certain segment of the Spanish-speaking population, Latino is a term of ethnic pride and Hispanic a label that borders on the offensive. According to this view, Hispanic lacks the authenticity and cultural resonance of Latino, with its Spanish sound and its ability to show the feminine form Latina when used of women. Furthermore, Hispanic—the term used by the U.S. Census Bureau and other government agencies—is said to bear the stamp of an Anglo establishment far removed from the concerns of the Spanish-speaking community. While these views are strongly held by some, they are by no means universal, and the division in usage seems as related to geography as it is to politics, with Latino widely preferred in California and Hispanic the more usual term in Florida and Texas. Even in these regions, however, usage is often mixed, and it is not uncommon to find both terms used by the same writer or speaker. See Usage Notes at "Chicano".

For more click Meaning of "Hispanic"

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:13 AM

In his book "Everything You Need To Know About Latino History'
{New York, Penquin Group, 2003 edition, pages 2-4}, Himilce Novas
discusses the group names "Latino" and "Hispanic".

Here are excerpts from that book:

"Hispanic" is derived from Espana, the country thaled the conquest..of the new world. But Hispanics are more than just decendants of the New World Spanish conquistadors and settlers. ..the Spanish encountered many different native peoples, known generally as Amerindians, in the Americas, and to a large extent, they intermarried, and interbred with those they conquered. Add to that all the peoples whom the Spanish eventually brought from Africa to the Americas as slaves {and with whom they also mixed} and you get the whole enchilada known as Spanish speaking Latin America...

Dor the sake of clarity, Spanish Latin America is comprised of Cuba, Puerto Rico {which is a U.S. Commonwealth and not a soverigh nation}, the Dominican Republic, Mexico, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Panama, Veesuela, Columbia, Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, Chile, Argentina, and Uraguay, and Paraguay. All citizens and residents of the United States who originate from these nations or from the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or whose ancestors did, are known as Hispanics, The U.S. Census also includes Spanish Americans, those whose forbears came directly from Spain, amon Hispanics, but many scholars limit the definition to those of Spanish Latin American descent...

In Spanish -speaking Latin American, people do not refer to themselves as Hispanic...National identity takes precedence...
Many Americans with roots in Spanish Latin Ameica consider "Hispanic" merely a bureaucratic government census term and prefer the pan-ethnic term "Latino" or "Latina" {depending on gender}. However, "Latino" has not been popular across the board".

-snip-

I should note that Novas appears to prefer the term "Latino" as he uses it as the group referent for this diverse population throughout his book.

Incidently, Novas also writes that Brazilians are not Hispanic since Brazil is a South American country that was conquered by the Portuguese and not the Spanish. But Novas writes that "While Brizilian Americans are of Portugues, not Spanish ancestry, and therefore do not qualify as Latinos, many consider themselves part of a larger pan-Latin American diaspora and have forged close ties with the Latino community" {p.4, op.cit}.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:22 AM

Corrections "For the sake of clarity..."

also "But Novas writes that "While Brazilian Americans are of Portuguese, not Spanish ancestry, and therefore do not qualify as Latinos, many consider themselves part of a larger pan-Latin American diaspora and have forged close ties with the Latino community".

And there may be more corrections-"my bad"

["my bad"-1970s or so African American hip-hop"-ese meaning "I'm sorry. Please accept my apology"].


And btw, Dianavan, "Go'n with your bad self!" ["bad" here meaning very good].

;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:25 AM

"I've never understood this "Hispanic" category Americans go in for. Is it linguistic or "racial"? Who is it supposed to include and exclude? Spaniards? Brazilians? Filipinos?"

You'd have to understand that, unlike other countries, In the US there is a political and economic advantage to be had by having a minority designation. Therefore, if you can make yourself part of a minority, you can get your piece of the minority pie.

I am officially designated a Potter-American. Sure, we're a minority now...

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:29 AM

When I was last in any form of education, the tutors used 2 boards. One was coloured black (and historically called a blackboard until PC came in) and was described in class as a chalkboard. The other was white and oddly enough, rather than being called a pen board (after all this one used pens and the other used chalk) was called a white board.

I've just realised that indicates unfair discrimination against black. I mean you can call a useful teaching device that is coloured white as white but you can't call a useful teaching device that is coloured black, black.

My point is, if you want to invent cases to prove discrimination, you can do. I find it makes a mockery of genuine cases though.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:31 AM

Incidentally, there was a failed piece of legislation (introduced for voting on) in California -- the ultimate "color blind" legislation -- that would make it illegal to ask for race, ethnicity, or religion on any kind of application used by the State of California.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 01:09 PM

Azizi, I do not accept material from Wackipedia, which lacks scholarship. "User-contributed," without proper documentation and attribution, only leads to confusion and misunderstanding since it usually reflects the personal opinion of the contributor.

In U. S. census, Portuguese and Brasilians are counted (mostly?) as 'Other' in compilations, but are enumerated separately on the original census form.
Spaniards, a small minority, are counted separately on the original census form. In compilations, they often are grouped as 'other.'
When the separate entries are compiled in statistical treatment, these are the categories used (2004, but last official census 2000):

1. White resident population, by State and Hispanic origin.
2. Black or African-American resident population, by State and Hispanic origin.
3. American Indian or Alaskan native population, by state and Hispanic origin.
4. Asian resident population, by state and Hispanic origin.
5. Resident population, by state and Hispanic origin.
(Many forms also have the category for Hawaiian native population, by state and Hispanic origin.
Categories are from the National Vital Statistics System, National Center for Health Statistics (U. S. Federal Government).

See the Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (1996 Tenth Ed,) definition of "Hispanic" for American usage.
Hispanic- "of, relating to, or being a person of Latin American descent living in the U. S.; esp.: one of Cuban, Mexican or Puerto Rican origin." Note that 'Spaniard' is not mentioned. "Latino" in the Dictionary has the same meaning, but also may be applied to any "native inhabitant of Latin America."
Race is not a part of the definition of either.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 02:09 PM

Jon, in the US 'black board' went from black to green before it went to white.

Azizi, I have no doubt that you are more sensitized to coded language than I am but there are some phrases and images that I consider positive beyond dispute:

Black hair= raven's wing
Black velvety sky
Black cat = wise, knowing

And lots more, actually.


"Historically, widows and widowers were expected to wear black for a year after the death of their spouses." Azizi post

What about white? In some countries and cultures white is the color of mourning.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 06:47 PM

BTW - I am fully acquainted with the rigours of academia but life experience has taught me that the ivory tower has little to do with cultural literacy and that, in fact, most graduate students fall flat on their face when expressing their ethno centric viewpoint to a multi-cultural audience.

I expected some sort of dismissive response. I wasn't disappointed in that, but I think you're wrong in this also. I'd say that you're grossly over-generalizing. Most people with advanced degrees manage to escape the gravity field of that Ivory Tower and do good work and understand the real world around them. And there are talented professors in many fine institutions who turn out great thinkers.

Perhaps you're confusing those people with a conspicuous group that never seems to break free of the university and who fall under the heading of "those who can, do, those who can't, teach." I have run into some of them over the years. They are very good at navel-gazing in closed circuit environments of school and scholarly conferences. Theory for theory's sake. They publish papers on topics that don't lead anywhere, and always come back to the same research again and again. They tend to fizzle out and drift into other jobs. Don't dismiss education or scholarship because some people don't get it and can't figure out how to apply what they've learned.

People who read the journals, take the good ideas, and move out into the world to work and teach and think make a difference. To suggest that one group, by virtue of their education or skin color, lacks understanding while another group, because of their education or skin color, possess total understanding is a gross simplification of how the world works. We all simply understand different things, and ours is a world in which little has been done to bridge that gap. Until you see evidence in an individual of a stubborn unwillingness to think or consider viewing the world from a position other than the center in which they've placed themselves, no one should be dismissed out of hand.

And before you wade into another aspect of this, I will note that the mudcatters I am most likely to tangle with are the ones who wade into perfectly good discussions and start flashing around faulty sources, ill-considered topics, fuzzy logic, and/or try to blast their opponents out of the argument by name calling, innuendo, and just plain nastiness to distract from their lack of knowledge or material to continue the discussion. Some people just drop out when they reach that point, others keep on slugging.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 07:39 PM

All these neat, even obsessive, classifications - and then people spoil the neatness by falling in love with somebody from another classifications.

I used to have a colleague who came fromm Ireland, and had met her husband when she was working in Gibraltar, where he'd been born, from a Portuguese Indian (Goan) family. Their children were entitled to passports of at least four countries. I remember her trying to work out how the family were supposed to fill in the ethnic origin question on the national census form.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:16 PM

The distinguished actor Ossie Davis wrote an essay about 35 years called "The English Language is My Enemy." It's been reprinted in freshman anthologies. In it, Davis listed a lot of expressions carrying various degrees of negativity involving the word "black." "Blackmail" for example, or "the Black Death."

On that basis he concluded that English itself was loaded against African Americans.

The missing element is there's no proof, or even evidence, that   people of any color connect these terms with African Americans unless invited to. And there's no evidence, even if they did, that it would have any significant effect on their attitudes toward (or as) black people.

I used this essay for class discussion many times. I don't recall a single freshman questioning its conclusion on his or her own. Most seemed to take it as a revelation of an indisputable truth they never would have thought of themselves. The essay's argument made some uncomfortable, but they couldn't quite put their suspicions into words. The students were disproportionately white, BTW.

In any discussion it takes a little bit of learning and sophistication just to ask the basic questions, "What's the evidence ?" and "How believable is it ?"

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:52 PM

Its very hard to prove feelings. They are highly subjective.

Whether its believable is also highly subjective.

SRS - I am not objecting to higher education. Far from it. I object to your intellectual elitism. Undergraduates may or may not have critical thinking skills. Your statement says more about you than it does about them.

BTW - My father taught me early on when completing forms that ask for your religion, the answer is; none of your God damned business. The correct answer for ethnic origin (in my case) is American hybrid. Once again, if you continue to allow intrusion, the initial intrusion becomes justification for more intrusive behaviour. Don't participate in that type of questioning.

Thanks Azizi for claiming I'm so bad. I'm really just naughty and full of spunk. Learned it from Zora Neale Hurston.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:59 PM

Dianavan, your "American hybrid" is unacceptable on census forms of the U. S., UK AND Canada.
The UK and Canadian forms go heavily into religion, and race- Muslim, Hindu, Christian, etc. - I just checked, and was surprised. Of course you can fit into the 'other' or 'none' categories. Just don't commit a perjurable offence (He, he, he).

Canada Census figures are complex: Look at the "Ethnocultural Portrait of Canada, 2001 Census." The principal categories are:
Total visible minorities
Chinese
South Asian
Black
Filipino

Ethnic origins (a long section on the Canadian Census) range from Canadian (12 mil), English 6 million, French 5 million, Scottish 4 million down to 16000 Algerians and 15000 Bulgarians. Provincial figures include 340 Quebecois in the province of Alberta (I didn't check for separatists in British Columbia).
Then there are the half-breeds, the Metis, included among the 800,000 aboriginals, counted separately, along with First Nations, etc., etc.
Population by Religion
Catholic 13 million
Protestant 9 million
Christian Orthodox 0.5 million
Muslim 0.6 million
etc. and
4.9 million with no religious affiliation.

Just remember, it is an offence to make false statements on the Census form.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:03 PM

SRS - I am not objecting to higher education. Far from it. I object to your intellectual elitism. Undergraduates may or may not have critical thinking skills. Your statement says more about you than it does about them.

My statement shows that I have experience with undergraduates, it has nothing to do with "intellectual elitism." It shows that I work in a university and I am very familiar with undergraduate critical thinking skills, or the lack of them. On a case by case basis, you are going to find a lot of variables in the skills of each student, that goes without saying. Those who "get it" are most likely the ones who will choose to go on to graduate school. Those who get in still have to get through some core courses that are intended to weed out the ones who don't have critical thinking skills. That vetting happens in graduate school because it's a different level of work entirely.

Personally, I find your dismissal of intellectual pursuits and goals as off-putting as the political climate in the U.S. in which intelligence seems to actually work against good candidates. Go figure. Someone smart enough to make things in government work right and build coalitions and they're passed over for a doofus like Dubya.

In American Indian literature there has been an ongoing discussion for many years regarding the use of English by native writers. If they write in their own language the story can be very short, because as Maria Chona said "we understand so much." But if they want to reach a larger audience and get their ideas across, and in the process perhaps set the dominant culture back on it's heels, they must use English. And it's a battle all the way. Gloria Bird and Joy Harjo put out a wonderful collection of short stories with the savvy title Reinventing the Enemy's Language. It's back to semiotics again. You gotta pay attention to semiotics. Go read some Ishamael Reed and you'll see what I'm talking about. Go read Henry Louis Gates. bell hooks. Zora Neale Hurston. They were masters of the language and the nuance you're so concerned about. Go read some Audre Lorde. And while you're at it, go look for Gillermo Gómez-Peña and Ana Castillo. Might as well get some other ethnic spin on English while you're at it. Whether or not any of these people wrote works that were read in colleges, they wrote books that were read by many people. Don't confuse the venue with the message.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:07 PM

(Since I have been in Canada, I have changed ethnic origin in each census- my worthless protest. When I first was included in the census, American (U. S.) was not an allowable answer. I selected one contributor to my ancestry (I forget which one).

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:57 PM

SRS - I won't discuss this with you any further because you are putting words in my mouth. At no time did I dismiss intellectual pursuits and goals.

When you suggest I read Zora Neale Hurston, it tells me you didn't read my post. She happens to be my favorite author. Don't expect everyone to have a deep knowlege of linguistics or even a French feminist perspective on language. We only know what we have experienced and if you forever have your head wrapped up in theory, you will never be able to hear people who tell you how it feels. Don't forget, theories are only good until another theorist proves them wrong. You personify the type of intellectualism that America has grown to disdain. You dismiss others in an attempt to aggrandize yourself. A graduate degree does not mean you are entitled to do that.

Just because someone has the funds to get themselves through graduate school, doesn't mean they have an intellectual edge over those who do not.

Q -
I wasn't speaking specifically about census forms. On census forms I list myself as aboriginal.

BTW -

Half-breed is a derogatory term used by Whitey. Its insulting.

So what do you think of the explosion of that Kinder-Morgan pipeline in Arizona. Do you think it can't happen in Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 12:49 AM

Dianavan, I include Zora Neale Hurston and you think lists can't overlap? Do you even know who the others are, or are you going to make Zora do all of your work?

You personify the type of intellectualism that America has grown to disdain. You dismiss others in an attempt to aggrandize yourself. A graduate degree does not mean you are entitled to do that.


So, you think that if someone wants to carry on a creditable conversation and objects to the nonsense that gets layered in, that this is self-aggrandizement? That's your problem, not mine, because you are badly misreading the situation.

You don't have an argument at this point, you're not discussing, you're calling people names. You have a vocabulary that lets you do this, but you don't seem to understand what is being said, you didn't read the simple page on semiotics, so it is simply easier for you to say that I'm out of the loop because I've spent time reading and thinking and discussing this? Don't you see the problem with your approach? If you privilege one group over another, you've already built a fatal flaw into any argument you could make. If you will instead try to step back and look at the intersections of what people are saying and try to understand the conflicting meanings, then you'll get somewhere.

The original information Azizi posted isn't a problem here. It's the self-righteous defenders of the [Other] un[der]represented who are the problems.

The tricks with the punctuation are found throughout scholarly publications. It means the writer acknowledges that wordplay is important, that it is going on, and that whoever reads the paper needs to be aware that they're bringing their own biases and understandings to the topic. If you find scholarly approaches to these problems intimidating, that is your problem. Calling people names doesn't fix the problem, it just positions you in a rather unattractive place with apologists and wannabes.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 09:09 PM

I did, "read the simple page on semiotics"

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 11:09 PM

I am quite aware of the implication of 'half-breed' and the definition of Metis and its origin (mixed; French, first used in Hudson Bay Company reports, ca. 1815).
The Metis Nation of Alberta, in their definition of "Historic Metis Nation," says it refers to "the Aboriginal people then known as Metis or Half-breeds who resided in the historic Metis Nation Homeland."
Is Canada the only country which has formally recognized people of mixed race and defined them as one of the "aboriginal peoples" (Constitution Act of 1982)?

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 11:50 PM

I think Canada may be the only nation that recognizes a mixed race because the Metis (French and Aboriginal) were well established before the English. Thats my best guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 04:55 PM

THIS IS CUTE

The Christian Coalition Headquarters in South Carolina makes their black employees use a seperate entrance.

http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/news/local/12676171.htm


IT cost them $300,000

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 06:39 PM

It's not just the Muslims who have to put up with having crazies with big bank balances and an appetite for power setting out to hi-jack their religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Black looters, white finders
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 07:08 PM

Fear and religion have served kings well throughout history.

Serve religion and fear together and you have a chilling god fearing regieme.

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my cd cover project...
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