It's a shame I'm not in a position to say who I am. Because if I could, and was also able to tell you some specific stories about what has happened to me, and others like me, at specific clubs up and down the land I don't think any of you would be suggesting for one moment that my posts are only about "What the organsier should do for the pro."

I really don't think you understand how bad the situation is in some places, where I presume you never go.

I'm talking about what organisers should try to do - PERIOD. For themselves, for their clubs, for the music, AND for the pro. It's only coming across as though I'm making demands that because TheSnail has been so dismissive of my points, and I've been trying to get him to see beyond his current attitude. I'm sorry if I've seemed cross at times but it's really really frustrating trying to open up debate about this, and to see good, well-meaning, hard-working people (performers and organisers) fail because these issues are not as well understood across the board as they should be.

Villan - you know me well and your post above is addressed to a very different type of performer, ok? I don't think people are nicking my club gigs for one minute. I've addressed that above. I think you'd agree that I AM good enough and liked enough (for your club at least :-) - but I still can no longer get enough gigs to make a proper living in the clubs and festivals only - because there are just not enough out there. Only a score or so of artists can.

Why? Because so many clubs have stopped booking guests, or reduced their guest bookings. Why? Because they've had too many half-full nights for supposedly 'good enough / liked enough' guests. Why? becuase they didn't understand that even 'good enough / liked enough' guests need to be marketed properly - specially on their first visit. Does this matter? I think so. Can anything be done? Yes. Should I suggest some solutions?

Err, no - you say.

Now you Villan do it right - no worries. I believe TheSnail's club does do - we shall see, but a lot of clubs don't - for lots of good reasons of course that we all know and understand well. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. Yes it's hard work - but most of the people who do it well have a team to spread the load. It's not easy building up a team - but there are ways and means. There is support available - but some people are not interested in recognising they have a problem until it's too late. Seems you can't force even a singing horse to drink.

I could list dozens of people that play both your clubs, who are damn good, famous within the folk world, who play big festivals every year - yet STILL find themselves playing to rooms that are only a quarter full - fairly frequently. I know because we talk about these things, and I go see them and witness it.

The suggestions I've made are in good faith - for the benefit of all.

If people choose to see them otherwise - well, that just underlines the problem.