Stealing gigs from the pro's

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Strider
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 04:27 PM

Hi Santa,
"Whatever happened to the Dundedain?"
Well we went our various ways on 7th October 1972, our final farewell performance at the Fighting Cocks.
John Rodd, Mike Huxley and his to be wife Hermionne formed Antic Hey, doing far more "music" and John went on to scale new heights with the Albion Dance Band, and various albums.
Nigel Hall and myself performed sporadically, but in '76 I moved to Belgium, which pretty much put an end to any serious folk music on my side. We reformed for a one off gig in 1996 to mark 25 years (more or less), which we did in Whitby.
Mike Huxley died last year, and as part of the grieving process we decided to put together an archive of the group. It is in place in the form of a wiki, to which anyone can contribute, and later I hope to put it up as full site.
I occasionally meet up with Nigel, and John, but not as threesome. The last couple of times we sang a few songs, it didn't sound bad, but our hearing is going too!
Link to wiki - http://dunedain.wik.is/
Cheers
Ian Culpin

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 01:07 PM

You never know Paul
I am keeping an eye on who you put on
Les

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:33 PM

Hey Les....I've promised to come to at least one of yours.

I think you should show the same commitment to "The Cause"!! :-)

If we don't see you in the Spring, we'll see you in the summer (that could almost be a song!)

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:29 PM

Have a nice evening Dick

Would you like loads of mine Paul LOL

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:23 PM

please excuse my absence,Ihave had to spend the day mending fences,to stop my sheep escaping to the neighbours,and this evening I intend to play my concertina.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:19 PM

Les,

Would you like one (or several)?

Paul

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:16 PM

Now then Banjiman, get back to selling your tickets :-)

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:59 AM

Are you lot still arguing? I've been to sleep and out to see a client.....personally I blame the others, you know the ones who aren't taking part in this discussion.

Seriously. isn't there a bigger discussion...another thread probably around how we attract more (and heaven forbid, younger) audiences to watch & play folk music?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:58 AM

Indeed we are, both running very successfully.
I should have added that The Royal Oak isn't one of those places that fail to do their legwork either. I'm sure you will find that guaranteed minimum irrelevant.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:42 AM

Sorry, Snail. Thought it was your club. You are very blessed in Lewes to have two!

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:40 AM

greg stephens

I would like to point out that I am going to play in January at the Lewes folk club that the Snail has mentioned he is involved in the running of.

Actually Greg, you aren't. Your performing at the Royal Oak not the Lewes Arms. Looking forward to seeing you there.

Not sure where I got the "keep us on our toes" line from. My interpretation. Sorry about that, it's been a long thread.

What you actually said -

My personal position is as I said earlier: we'll generally play for the lion's share of the door money, accompanied by a modest guarantee. The guarantee is useful, it ensures that the organisers actually do a bit of legwork, postering, press, mailouts etc. Believe me, I have encountered places that don't!

We are not one of those places. We do the work. We do not offer guarantees, at least not to long established professionals. To newbies such as Newcastle students who may have travelled a long way for an uncertain return, maybe.

We were negotiating with a National Name for one of our workshop deals. He asked for a gauranteed minimum and we said no but pointed out to him that our guests almost invariably made more than that. He turned us down. His loss and ours but if, after we had done everything we could (and our past record showed that we are pretty good at it), he had failed to draw the crowds why should we take the loss?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:12 AM

GUEST, Anon

When I said "I don't see why we should guarantee an artist against their failure to bring in an audience", the previous sentence was "We do our legwork. "
I was taking it for granted that organisers do all they can with limited time and resources to promote their club and their guests. You appeared to take it for granted that they do not.

Yes, I did take your "coat-tails" remark personally since it was explicitly made at me and based on your own assumptions, not anything I'd said.

In your 09:02 posting you held forth at considerable length and with great confidence about how folk clubs should be run despite admitting that you had no experience of doing so. Try running one if you think you can do it better. Several professional performers do.

Even this morning you are saying "TheSnail has been so dismissive of my points, and I've been trying to get him to see beyond his current attitude." What is it about my current attitude that you wish to change?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:41 AM

The Snail seems to have a bit of a down on guests at folk clubs asking for a guarantee against a door percentage. As there is a lot of mutual misunderstanding on this thread, I will quote exactly what he said:

'The only other point I've really tried to make is that, if you've done the website and the poster and the leaflets and the press hand outs, it's a bit much for the professionals to demand a guaranteed minimum to "keep us on our toes"'.

I would like to point out that I am going to play in January at the Lewes folk club that the Snail has mentioned he is involved in the running of. And, curiously, the organiser offered me a guarantee of £150 against 80% of the door money , an offer which I gladly accepted. So I am glad the Snail isn't actually the guy who does the bookings! And, by the way, I didn't "demand" a guarantee. What guests might do is "ask" for a guarantee: I think using that word "demand" shows an underlying hostility which is unhelpful. In my own case, I think I neither demanded nor asked, as far as I recall: the guarantee and percentage were offered to me!

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:18 AM

>>Although one particular Football Club has possibly outlived its usefulness<<

Hey Jim, I hope you don't mean mine :-)

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:59 AM

"....but we'd get by without you far better than you'd get by without us"

That is what is commonly known as blackmail, TheSnail. (my way or the highway...)
It's also bad-heartedness.

B

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:34 AM

"Anyone reading your posts would be lead to believe that all clubs are awful."

On the contrary. Please read my post at 09:02 again. I'm sorry if it came over as partonising - I had a lot to say and may not have chosen my words as carefully as I might. But I have made it clear all along that I'm only talking some clubs. You agree there are some you'd avoid - these are the places I'm talkikng about - that's obvious surely. The difference is that I don't write them off. I had hoped to encourage a debate which might help them to improve, but you taking my thoughts personally and becoming affronted, when obviously these problems don't apply at your club has taken the discussion off beam. I stand corrected re 'guests' and 'pros' - but I'd made that point myself at 05:53. "Only under pressure have you conceded that The Villan gets it right and that it's just possible that The Lewes Arms does as well." Again - not so. I cleared that up just as soon as it was raised. I also apologised at once for misunderstanding your comment, but I was not the only person to do so. It did seem as though you were supporting the attitude held by SOME organisers that it is entirely down to the artist to bring in an audience - which you have since agreed should not be the case. Enough.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Green Man
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:20 AM

Hi Hamish,

I look forward to hearing / seeing you. People like you bring a breath of fresh air in. We are not locked into paying for the services of people who are well known, we employ people who entertain and from another standpoint maintain standards.

As for stealing gigs, you can't steal something that was never owned. If there is ever a union for folk performers that makes it bad to bid for a gig then I certainly won't subscribe. Anyway most 'professionals' start out singing around clubs for nothing, just to get the exposure. It is an evolutionary thing. You take your knocks and build your repertoire and confidence, only then can you charge extortionate money for a performance :-) providing of course you can find someone who is willing to pay.

See you soon.

GM

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:15 AM

Brendy

I will answer just two of your points -

What exactly is your job, then?

I'm a computer programmer.

What are the aims of your club?

From the Lewes Arms Folk Club's constitution:

LEWES ARMS FOLK CLUB RESIDENTS' COMMITTEE: Booking policy

Programming objectives

1.       To provide a programme which reflects the club's long-established interest in traditional music and song and contemporary folk music/song derived from the tradition;

2.       To provide a programme reflecting the major interests of the residents and those attending regularly in unaccompanied song, accompanied song and tunes;

3.       To provide a programme with a mix of local performers who perform bookings regularly, regional and national performers;

4.       To provide periodic opportunities for competent local performers who are not regularly booked at other clubs to perform;

5.       To provide opportunities for in-depth musical development via workshops;

6.       To apportion bookings equitably between performers as far as is possible in a situation where there are far more performers than opportunities to offer bookings;

7.       To vary formats from time to time, e.g. theme evenings, longer guest spots, while retaining a policy of offering floor singers at least one item;

8.       Where necessary to ensure that new members/visitors are able to perform floor spots by asking the residents to stand down.


From now on, I am not failing to respond, I am ignoring you.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:07 AM

Captain Birdseye

By charging 4 pounds for Tom Mcconville and David Wood ,AND 5 pounds for Cockersdale

So, by my calculations, one Cockersdale is worth 5/12 of a Tom McConville.

If I played in front of fifty people at £5 a head and was given £50 and the next week the guest played in front of fifty people at £5 a head and got payed £400 I think I would feel pretty pissed off.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:56 AM

The Villan

It has become more of a "What the organsier should do for the pro"

I suppose that's my fault for pointing out that the gigs don't belong to the pros in the first place, they belong to the organisers who are free to give them to whoever they choose.
The only other point I've really tried to make is that, if you've done the website and the poster and the leaflets and the press hand outs, it's a bit much for the professionals to demand a guaranteed minimum to "keep us on our toes".

GUEST, Anon

I really don't think you understand how bad the situation is in some places, where I presume you never go.

Correct, I don't. There are clubs I have done floor spots at that I'll never go back to. I suggest you adopt the same policy.

I'm talking about what organisers should try to do - PERIOD. For themselves, for their clubs, for the music, AND for the pro.

I'm glad you got those in the right order except it's "for the guest" not "for the pro". Pros have no special status as far as we are concerned.

TheSnail has been so dismissive of my points, and I've been trying to get him to see beyond his current attitude.

I'm sorry, but what do you see as my current attitude and what are your objections to it? All you seem to have done so far is whinge and whine and moan about how awful club organisers are.
"what TheSnail advocates: Leave it all up to the artist to build his reputation in outer space somehow and then ride on his coat-tails." didn't do a lot to win me over to your point of view.

You're posting of 14 Nov 07 - 09:02 was amazingly patronising and showed that you have very little idea of what is involved in running a club. Try and remember that we are open at least fifty nights a year (plus other events) and your gig is just one of those.

Anyone reading your posts would be lead to believe that all clubs are awful. Only under pressure have you conceded that The Villan gets it right and that it's just possible that The Lewes Arms does as well.

Back to The Villan -

Remember, nobody owes anybody a living, its up to you to go out and get it.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:03 AM

Brendy. That's twice you've sneered at the term "moderately successful", the second time apparently out of context.   You seem to interpret the term as equal to failure.   I chose the term "moderately" to avoid overclaiming – noting that I'm aware of more successful clubs in the country. There is a spectrum in these things, as in everything.   However, the club I attend runs about one third "big" names, one third "lesser" names or new acts, and one third local interest or singers nights. It isn't always full to the gills, but it is some distance from failure. It appears to be fulfilling the need to provide a platform for established professionals and rising newcomers: though there are always more potential guests than evenings.

More generally, although a professional artist or a concert promoter has to be businesslike, a club (folk, dance, model railways or whatever) is essentially an amateur organisation run for the benefit of its members/attendees. If the finances are not run sensibly, then the club will fail, but it is not the purpose of its existence. A club is not a business. Its health is not judged by its growth rate or profit margin. Clubs can be stable for many years at a "moderate" level, if that satisfies the members/attendees.

Captain; I went to Kingston club a few years before you. Sadly, the only acts I remember are the club residents Dunedain (what happened to them?) and a visit from Martin Wyndham Reed, complete with bush-hat.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST,matt m
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:41 AM

"if an organiser only has to pay an artist 50 pounds,he wont put the same effort into promotion as if he has to pay 400 pounds"

Very true. But in London, the most expensive place to live in the whole world ever, the idea of regularly paying any musician anything even approaching £400 is simply a non-starter. (In my experience anyway. I'd be happy to be hear otherwise...)

You can find a room in the middle of nowhere for free – sometimes – but usually the lowest you can get away with paying for room hire is £50. (You may or may not have a PA and a soundman to pay for too.) I don't like charging more than £6 a ticket, I prefer £5, and I like to offer a concessions rate of, say, £4 or £3. You can cover your room hire cost, if it's as cheap as £50, quite easily on those terms: after 10 people come in, you can start paying the musician(s). That's the kind of model I vastly prefer.

But if you have to factor in a £200+ fee to a musician then that model is simply unworkable. You have to start doing things like paying that musician but not anyone else on the bill. Or electing to just have that one musician for the night and noone else. Or upping the ticket price. None of which I feel comfortable doing. Which I feel is my prerogative.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:19 AM

Thats not true Dick

I would say that we need to promote even more for a not so well known performer.

just using Vin as an example. If I ever get to put him on, I am absolutely sure that a lot of people who haven't been before will snap the tickets up. Vin would be a sell out. Providing you do your normal promotion.

However a performer of lesser fame if any, needs a lot more publicity and a way that convices people they actually want to see this performer or at least find out what all the fuss is.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:39 AM

In response to anons post,my wholepoint about GUEST admission pricing,relates to Guest Anons marketing points.
By charging 4 pounds for Tom Mcconville and David Wood ,AND 5 pounds for Cockersdale your saying to your audience one group is better than another.[in this case quite untrue]
what an organiser should be doing is promoting all his guests equally,this system of pricing is totally unfair,and does not reflect the quality of the guests,but only how much the organiser has had to pay,including agents commission. the problem is that the more a venue has to pay for an artist,the more promotion the organiser will do.
if an organiser only has to pay an artist 50 pounds,he wont put the same effort into promotion as if he has to pay 400 pounds.
DickMiles

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:31 AM

Things are changing, Anon. Not just in the Club scene but in other areas too. Folk is shifting over to other venues. The music industry is taking a serious hit with regards to sales (for some reason I'm enjoying that) and it's up to us to recognize the changes and take advantage of them.
The gap between the amateur and the pro is a whole lot narrower when it comes to making contact with the larger audience.
The Internet now has a serious role to play in our business and we all have equal access to this medium.
How/where you find your gigs today is not the same as it was ten years ago.
Change means opportunity. Take stock, change direction and go for it.
There is plenty of room for all of us.
Although one particular Football Club has possibly outlived its usefulness.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:26 AM

Anon
My comments were global and not aimed at anybody in particular.

I think festivals are a different kettle of fish. People pay good money to see a variety of performers. Some they like, some they don't. These people are music lovers and enjoy what the festival offers. It is unusual to see a performer do more than 1 hour as a gig, more likely 40/45 mins.

That is a lot different to listening to one artist do 90 minutes at a folk club or venue. That is where the organiser has to decide if a performer can entertain his/her audience sufficiently to make them want to come back. The target audience is not your festival goers, rather sit at home and watch the telly audience.If you can get them off the bums, they want to be entertained. I can see the reason why many clubs run at a quarter full.

I have many performers I love to see personally, but when I put my organiser hat on, I am a different person. I have to think of what the audience will like.

If I do book a pro, I have already decided that I think the audience will enjoy them.
However, i can't sit back and think that is enough. I need to let as many people know so that hopefully people who know and like that performer will come along too.
I also hope that the people who come along who trust my judgement but have never seen the performer before enjoy it enough to want to see them again.

Does all that make sense? I'll go and charge my battery up.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:51 AM

It's a shame I'm not in a position to say who I am. Because if I could, and was also able to tell you some specific stories about what has happened to me, and others like me, at specific clubs up and down the land I don't think any of you would be suggesting for one moment that my posts are only about "What the organsier should do for the pro."

I really don't think you understand how bad the situation is in some places, where I presume you never go.

I'm talking about what organisers should try to do - PERIOD. For themselves, for their clubs, for the music, AND for the pro. It's only coming across as though I'm making demands that because TheSnail has been so dismissive of my points, and I've been trying to get him to see beyond his current attitude. I'm sorry if I've seemed cross at times but it's really really frustrating trying to open up debate about this, and to see good, well-meaning, hard-working people (performers and organisers) fail because these issues are not as well understood across the board as they should be.

Villan - you know me well and your post above is addressed to a very different type of performer, ok? I don't think people are nicking my club gigs for one minute. I've addressed that above. I think you'd agree that I AM good enough and liked enough (for your club at least :-) - but I still can no longer get enough gigs to make a proper living in the clubs and festivals only - because there are just not enough out there. Only a score or so of artists can.

Why? Because so many clubs have stopped booking guests, or reduced their guest bookings. Why? Because they've had too many half-full nights for supposedly 'good enough / liked enough' guests. Why? becuase they didn't understand that even 'good enough / liked enough' guests need to be marketed properly - specially on their first visit. Does this matter? I think so. Can anything be done? Yes. Should I suggest some solutions?

Err, no - you say.

Now you Villan do it right - no worries. I believe TheSnail's club does do - we shall see, but a lot of clubs don't - for lots of good reasons of course that we all know and understand well. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. Yes it's hard work - but most of the people who do it well have a team to spread the load. It's not easy building up a team - but there are ways and means. There is support available - but some people are not interested in recognising they have a problem until it's too late. Seems you can't force even a singing horse to drink.

I could list dozens of people that play both your clubs, who are damn good, famous within the folk world, who play big festivals every year - yet STILL find themselves playing to rooms that are only a quarter full - fairly frequently. I know because we talk about these things, and I go see them and witness it.

The suggestions I've made are in good faith - for the benefit of all.

If people choose to see them otherwise - well, that just underlines the problem.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 02:30 AM

You are quite right Jim Lad.

It has become more of a "What the organsier should do for the pro"

Basically, if a pro is good enough or liked enough, they shouldn't have problems getting gigs.

Have a look at the gig lists of the more popular performers. They look as though they have enough work.

So if you as a performer think that people are nicking your gigs, then I seriously suggest you look at yourself and find out why. Are you not as good as you think you are (there are a lot out there who think that way). Are you promoting yourself in the best way possible.

Even if you get a gig at a club, you are unlikely to get another one for a couple of years after that, unless you have that certain something that have the audience gagging for you.

Remember, nobody owes anybody a living, its up to you to go out and get it.

I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:13 PM

Serious thread drift here.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:05 PM

Good morning, Bryan!

... Well, using your venue as a blackmailing weapon to get musicians to accept your terms, was never a vote winner for me.

Too often in your posts I read the words "It's not my/our job to ..."

What exactly is your job, then?
What are the aims of your club?

I'll get back to you once I have a look at the website.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:00 PM

Goodnight... :-)

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:59 PM

What grounds do you have for saying that?

Tell me in the morning. It's past my bedtime.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:49 PM

Seems like you're not doing that...

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:45 PM

I quite agree. What's your problem?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:40 PM

That part of our duty as organisers is to provide a service to the public.

That thinking works no matter where you are.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:37 PM

Your point, with reference to UK folk club organisers, Brendy?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:08 PM

I sat at home one night a few years ago staring at the box.
Unbeknownst to me, three blocks away, Richard Thompson was starting up his set.

Now, I'm not an avid follower of Richard's website, neither am I on his mailing list, but I've always wanted to see him live.
The venue that put him on never even put up a poster.

Now, when I think of all the ex-pat community over in Oslo; the Irish, English, Scottish, and Welsh, I could nearly have guaranteed a full house if it was me that was putting the gig on.

I brought Sharon Shannon and her 4 piece to Norway for the first time, a few years ago, and people came from Sweden and Denmark for the gig.
PLUS: We didn't charge a penny at the door.

It's called 'providing a service', Snail.
Some do it, some don't.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 07:22 PM

.... moderately successful ...

I see.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 07:10 PM

GUEST, Anon

Just try and remember that our duty as organisers is more towards our audience than it is towards providing you with making a living. We want you there, but we'd get by without you far better than you'd get by without us.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:52 PM

I'm very sorry that you see this as some kind of attack on you or your club Bryan. I explained that I don't know what you do, but I do know your club is successful. Organisers differ enormously in their approaches. Your stance comes over as defending the less motivated. I was hoping you might stand back and see the wider picture. But never mind.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:37 PM

I'll link to it on my webpage.

I do passionately believe that the audiences are out there.

Over here, we had to change people's perceptions (Riverdance, for all it's faults helped a lot here).
But where 'Irish Pubs' abroad have put the majority of their focus on 'Come all ye bold heroes' kind of stuff, I, and others like me have been pushing the music of East Clare and Donegal, and proving that 'Matty Groves' is a hell of a lot more powerful a song than, for instance, Whiskey in the Jar.

English pubs, abroad, generally are football/sports places with absolutely no lip-service paid to your rich folk tradition.

You know Paul, I'm sure, that if the audience isn't immediately evident, you have to go out there and canvass them. That's what you seem to be doing, and more power to you.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:34 PM

GUEST, Anon

If you want us to sell you to our audience, you need to sell yourself to us. I'm not sure that you're going the best way about it.

As amateurs, we do our best. If that isn't good enough, find alternative outlets or organise your own gigs. It can be done. As Folkiedave described, Spiers and Boden did it in Sheffield a while ago. It can also fail. Last year a national name did a gig at an arts centre about fifteen miles away. With hardly any ticket sales, the organisers contacted the local folk scene about a week before the gig. We did what we could but it was really too late; there was an audience of about 20. Around the same time, a group we had booked a while before played another arts centre about 30 miles away. In a theatre that could probably have seated 150, they had a smaller audience than we gave them. This coming Saturday, a famous and long standing band are playing a venue about fifty yards away. We found out by chance a few days ago because they haven't done any perceptible local advertising. I would recommend you come and see Too Many Strings (including BBC Young Folk Awards finalist Dogan Mehmet) at the Lewes Arms instead.

Folk club organisers may not be perfect but we get the job done and we're bloody good value for money.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:19 PM

Brendy,

I do spend rather a lot of time getting gigs for and attending gigs (and playing a bit too...yes even banjo players occasionally get paid gigs!) with my other half.

I am fully aware of the problems associated with some clubs and other venues....however if it was that terrible, and we weren't getting a lot of pleasure from it, we would find another way of making that part of our income.

Part of my motivation for starting
KFFC
was to try and do things differently in terms of marketing and to try and attract additional audience to "folk". Time will tell if this will work.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:08 PM

That would still leave the problem, Paul, of lack of decent venues.
It's much easier, I think, to rectify a situation, than to have to start from scratch.

Good luck with the club, by the way.
Just keep telling the landlord to keep the faith.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:03 PM

Guest ANON....you are over playing your hand and I suspect preaching to the converted on this thread.

Yes there are bad clubs.....so don't play 'em!

Paul

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:57 PM

Oggie,

Absolutely agree about the Landlord....he has to make money out of this or at some point he will want rent for the room which makes a smaller pot to pay the acts or higher prices for the audience.....

or he goes under like a lot of other pubs around here.

Paul

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:53 PM

I said:

"All the organiser can sell is the artist's ABILITY!"

Snail said:

"No we can't because we can't put that up on a website or leaflet or poster. All we can sell is your track record. Only YOU can sell your ability."

I say

But we can't sell our ability until we get there - by which time it's too late!

Only YOU can do that - and you CAN sell our ability. You can put our tracks up on your website - or on your myspace site if you have one (which perhaps you should). You can quote our reviews (from our sites) on yours, and in your leaflets (if you bother to print them - which many don't). You can take the time to sell the night, properly, in your parish notices, instead of just saying, err next week we've got xxx. You can speak to the more influential regulars and give us a good old beef-up. You can create a buzz. We're doing a gig in Newcastle or somewhere, for goodness sake, and we don't even know what your place looks like, how it runs or what sort of people go!

Now you may do all these things (we'll see if/when I play there).

I'm not attacking your club. I'm telling those who don't know that many clubs don't.

Look, YOU believe we're good enough, or you shouldn't have booked us in the first place. Now you have somehow to transfer that belief to your audience. Your punters may have never heard of us - or perhaps they only have the vaguest notion of what we do. They're not going to go looking at our websites unless you tell them to, and tell them in a way that makes them want to. You have to build a sense of anticipation. They won't come to the gig unless you've sold us - properly, using all the tools that we provide. (Some clubs don't even bother to put up the posters we send - just lay them out on the table on the night of the gig).

By the time we arrive to 'sell our ability' - if the punters are not there, IT IS WAY TOO LATE!!!

And - as I have taken huge pains to explain, if you only rely on booking already-famous artists on track-record only you are missing out on a lot of great music, condemning newer artists to the graveyard, and doing the folk scene as a whole no favours - but maybe you don't care about that.




Then again

I said

"It also does not guarantee fair terms for artists - who are professionals and deserve a proper deal."

You said

"I'm sorry, but why does calling yourself professional entitle you to any special treatment? Surely it puts you under an even greater obligation to deliver the goods."

I say

Of course it means we need to deliver the goods - I think you'll find most of us do, in spades. But we'd prefer to deliver them to a full-ish house most of the time, thankyou.

And of course calling ourselves professional does not entitle us to any special treatment, because every guest who plays your club is entitled to a fair deal. But you'll usualy find that professionals are professional - interms of income, attitude and method - and they expect, nay assume, a certain level of competance by the other party. They set high standards for themselves, and hope - repeat, hope - to find those matched by their clients - the clubs, but they don't always. It's a sad fact but true.


Again, caveat: lots of clubs ARE great, and many thanks for all the hard work everyone does. This only applies to the few clubs who are not - though we should all strive to improve in every way we can, should we not?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:48 PM

Could be called a lot of things, Villan ;-)

As long as he's not in it for the bobs, I don't mind.

The scene is more important than the individual.

B.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:35 PM

Brendy
>>We're all philanthropists<<

Is somebody who makes a donation to the sperm bank a philanthropist?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:33 PM

I've been going to clubs since 1969 Dick and I've noticed that things have changed. The clubs aren't full every week anymore, punters are more selective. If we charged the same every time, for my night the room would be empty and we'd lose money; on Carthy's night the room would be full and we'd lose money because we couldn't cover his fee. That may not be how you'd like it to be but it is the reality and, as organisers, we have to live in the real world.

(and I wouldn't be in the least offended if a differential pricing system implied that I wasn't quite as good as Carthy.)