Joe, I think adding to your posts later, after people have made their replies and with the benefit of hindsight when not everyone has that advantage or privilege is a bit of a dirty trick in my book, and hardly a gentlemanly way of debating.

I take your point about the difference between abusers and molesters and I'm pleased that we both recognise that distinction - I thought it was in danger of getting lost at one point. Basic violent abuse of children, or corporal punishment as some would have it, is as you say, hardly peculiar to Catholic society. Nor is sexual abuse, come to that, but I don't see what that has to do with the discussion. However, the violent abuse is only dying out because more and more people are recognising it as being fundamentally wrong, and that process seems to have taken a bit longer in Ireland. I think the Catholic faith has played a significant part in keeping Irish society 'behind the times', and I think that is because by sheer weight of numbers, it could. It's all down to control and power, in my opinion.

My view of the Catholic church is what it is - I'm 'outside' the faith so it could never be like yours, Joe. I'm grateful for your insight into U.S. Catholicism; mine is very much a European viewpoint - where its power and influence has always been somewhat greater than in the U.S.

My point about the Catholic Church not caring for people was referring to 'the monolith', as opposed to individual occurrences. I see a distinction between Catholism and Catholics, and in that context I meant Catholicism. I apologise for not being clearer. What you refer to as a 'broad generalization', I see as a view of the bigger picture - I'm fully aware there are many possible viewpoints, and we are both only stating our opinions after all. Indeed, we could probably clog up the internet with an argument over the phrase "with little basis in fact." :-)