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BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales

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Penny S. 17 Apr 11 - 07:16 AM
katlaughing 17 Apr 11 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 17 Apr 11 - 01:30 PM
Mysha 18 Apr 11 - 08:39 AM
Penny S. 18 Apr 11 - 10:12 AM
Mysha 18 Apr 11 - 04:27 PM
Jack Campin 18 Apr 11 - 05:25 PM
CapriUni 19 Apr 11 - 04:24 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 19 Apr 11 - 04:48 PM
CapriUni 19 Apr 11 - 05:00 PM
katlaughing 19 Apr 11 - 05:53 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 19 Apr 11 - 06:11 PM
katlaughing 19 Apr 11 - 06:24 PM
CapriUni 19 Apr 11 - 06:52 PM
LadyJean 20 Apr 11 - 12:21 AM
CapriUni 20 Apr 11 - 12:38 AM
Penny S. 20 Apr 11 - 04:42 AM
Penny S. 20 Apr 11 - 05:06 AM
CapriUni 20 Apr 11 - 12:12 PM
katlaughing 20 Apr 11 - 03:22 PM
Penny S. 20 Apr 11 - 04:18 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 11 - 04:56 PM
CapriUni 20 Apr 11 - 11:21 PM
Penny S. 23 Apr 11 - 12:11 PM
Jack Campin 23 Apr 11 - 01:15 PM
CapriUni 24 Apr 11 - 02:25 AM
CapriUni 24 Apr 11 - 01:53 PM
Jack Campin 26 Apr 11 - 12:22 PM
CapriUni 26 Apr 11 - 09:52 PM
CapriUni 01 May 11 - 09:12 PM
Penny S. 06 May 11 - 05:47 AM
CapriUni 08 May 11 - 01:51 AM
CapriUni 08 May 11 - 03:28 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 08 May 11 - 01:35 PM
CapriUni 09 May 11 - 02:40 AM
CapriUni 29 May 11 - 05:20 PM
katlaughing 29 May 11 - 08:00 PM
Jack Campin 29 May 11 - 08:13 PM
CapriUni 29 May 11 - 10:43 PM
CapriUni 25 Jun 11 - 04:31 PM
CapriUni 25 Jun 11 - 04:40 PM
Mrrzy 25 Jun 11 - 06:28 PM
CapriUni 25 Jun 11 - 07:41 PM
CapriUni 14 Jul 11 - 02:09 PM
katlaughing 15 Jul 11 - 12:13 AM
CapriUni 15 Jul 11 - 02:20 AM
CapriUni 15 Jul 11 - 07:53 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 16 Jul 11 - 07:53 PM
CapriUni 17 Jul 11 - 02:44 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 17 Jul 11 - 05:19 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 07:16 AM

Did not the Romans open the door of the temple of Mars as a means of declaring war? (I know about the agriculture connection - its fascinating how when you go to modern Rome, the streets are full of markets selling fresh produce, and the balconies are full of plants, and how the market gardens in the Lea Valley east of London are all Italian, and how so many ancient Roman families have plant based names.)

It's such a shame when stories are lost that might have explained more about characters. There's such an abundance of stories from Greece and Rome, often conflicting, and so few elsewhere.

King Ethelbert of Kent insisted on meeting Augustine (later of Canterbury) in the open air under an oak, to be protected by his own deities - and that seems to indicate Thunor, rather than either Woden or Tiw (local placenames refer to Woden and Thunor, I don't think Tiw at all).

King Alfred refused to accept an oath from Viking sworn on Odin's armring, as he knew that such an oath was seen as breakable. He allowed the oath sworn on Thor's hammer. The particular Vikings then broke that oath, and their fleet was hit by a thunderstorm off Weymouth (I think). So it is recorded...

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:25 AM

I don't know if there are any folk tales like this, but one of the main characters, and stars, in the indie film The Butterfly Circus is a young man who was born with no limbs.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 01:30 PM

In the Welsh Gyspy story The Squirrel and the Fox collected by John Sampson (XXI Gyspy Folk Tales, 1933) there is an old woman without limbs. Whether she was born that way or was disabled in later life we are not told, just that she is seer of great wisdom.

I know a great one about a pig with a wooden leg...


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Mysha
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:39 AM

Hi Penny,

I think it was the temple of Jupiter, whose doors remained closed while the people were at peace. Same story, of course; rites may have been copied, functions may have been moved.

Thor? Well, shall we agree that Thor would have won the elections in the areas with Germanic faith during the Early Middle Ages? Whether that makes him the best man for the job is a different matter, though.

Bye,
                                                                Mysha


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 10:12 AM

Hi, Mysha - I was wrong, it was Janus.

I can't get at any of my books at the moment as I haven't been able to set up all the shelves yet after moving.

As for Thor being the god for the job, I wonder if the stories which make him look not the brightest planet in the firmament were propaganda by the Odin devotees. No way to find out, though.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Mysha
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 04:27 PM

Hi,

Oh, I'm not saying Thor would be bad for the job. Just that Tyr is in fact the right man, whereas Odin and Thor both behave like rash youngsters in a way. Maybe a thorough analysis of the corpus might tell us more about which are earlier stories and which are later, and thus which might be from the time when the cults of Thor and Odin were in direct competition. But I didn't mean to imply Thor was "mentally challenged", or whatever the current euphemism.

BTW, as for the other meaning of "dumb" (that association in itself says quite enough, I guess): Den lille Havfru gets to be human, in Andersen's tale, but she's then unable to speak. To me, that has a somewhat artificial flavour. Are there any other examples of mermaids or .men that can't communicate? Similar cases? (Check the reaction of the people when they first judge Frankenstein's creation).


Bye,
                                                                Mysha


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 05:25 PM

Another goddess with limbs missing: the Inuit goddess of the sea, Sedna, whose hands were chopped off by her father.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 04:24 PM

LadyJean --

Do you have a name for that French folktale, so that I may Google it? Also, in that Breton story, I recognise myself in Ugly Jan -- not that I see myself as ugly or stupid, but in that, even if I had the power to "fix" myself by wishing, I wouldn't use it. The princess wants a husband who is handsome and clever; Jan is just happy being Jan.

Mysha and Penny S --

This morning, I was gifted, via email, with this article from "Disability Studies Quarterly": Toward an Archtypal Psychology of Disability Based on the Hephaestus Myth, and it includes some interesting details not often recorded in mythology dictionaries.

Suibhne -- Thanks! I'll definitely keep an eye out for "The Squirrel and the Fox. Also, since mental illness is now considered a form of disability (now that we understand the brain's physical function in the process of thought), it occurs to me that your Internet namesake is another hero for me to explore at some point (and I have Seamus Heaney's translation of Suibhne Astray on my shelves. It may be time for a reread).

Jack Campin -- That detail sounds very similiar to the Grimms' tale The Girl Without Hands


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 04:48 PM

Sweeney is very much a literary creation rather than a creature of folktale, though this discussion is faily wide ranging. In terms of psychosis as a breakdown of nature/nurture duality then Sweeney is hard to beat. Proto Gnostic horror? In any case as a literary device to explore the ambiguities of nature in verse it's a piece of genius - and very modern. Whilst the Heaney translation is beautiful, you'll find Suibhne at his most profound amongst the pages of Flann O' Brien's stunning debut At Swim Two Birds where he inspires the following:

When stags appear on the mountain high
with flanks the colour of bran,
when a badger bold can say good-bue,
A PINT OF PLAIN IS YOUR ONLY MAN


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 05:00 PM

Suibhne -- Well, if it's from the literary tradition "in the style of folk tales" and it was written before the Great War, it's still within the scope of my blog.

I'm still looking for "The Squirrel and the Fox." I've not found it online yet, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 05:53 PM

I looked at some Gypsy/Welsh stories, but couldn't find that one. Have you seen this site: Sacred Texts? "Welcome to the largest freely available archive of online books about religion, mythology, folklore and the esoteric on the Internet." Looks pretty interesting!

Here's another which looks interesting. I didn't find that story, but only did a quick search: Story Lovers dot com.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 06:11 PM

Haven't found any of Sampson's XXI Gyspsy Folk Tales online - there's a later imprint here though which is worth checking out:

Gypsy Folk Tales

A very fine collection. Happy hunting!

*

I first read the story around 1984 and I remember telling it a lot it that summer whilst on the hoof. Not sure when the Squirrel and the Fox were replaced by the two hares, nor yet when these hares became Lamachree & Megrum, but that's the way of things. I still tell it now as Lamachree and Megrum as I have been doing now for 15 years at least. My favourite story? Very likely. It involves an episode of blindness when Jack is forced to pull out his eyes in payment for meagre foodstuffs. A cracking tale as they say!


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 06:24 PM

That reminds me of Art Thieme's story Why Whitemen Can't See Clearly.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 06:52 PM

Kat -- thanks for these links!

That's the great thing about collecting stories: All you have to do is mention that you're undertaking it, and people come forth to trade with you (and you can trade stories of your own and still keep them. That's pretty magical).


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: LadyJean
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 12:21 AM

CaprUni, I think the French story is called The Half Son, but I'm not sure. I found it in a book that also had the original Little Red Riding Hood where the girl meets up with a werewolf, and deals with him on her own.

I just ordered that book of gypsy folktales.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 12:38 AM

Okay, thanks. I'll try Google for Half Son (the keywords "Ugly Jan" just led to news stories of horrible events that happened in January -- *bothered face*))


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 04:42 AM

I've just remembered I have a book of Russian stories including a character called Emelya, who releases a pike and gets a supply of wishes from it. He is generally known as stupid, and is not a very nice character, but ends up with the Tsar's daughter.
It might be worth looking for.
He uses the phrase "By the will of the pike, do what I like.
Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 05:06 AM

Thanks for posting that piece about Hephaestos. Interesting about the Trickster aspect - there are parallels with Loki, aren't there, in the things he does with the Olympians.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 12:12 PM

Penny -- That Russian tale (in synopsis) reminds me of the British folktale "The old woman who lived in a vinegar bottle" (actually the name for a certain-shaped cottage with a thatched roof), where she agrees to release a magic fish, and the fish promises to grant her wishes whenever she calls him.

But once she starts wishing, she always wants more and more, until she wishes herself to be God. and that's magic too far, and everything pops back to the way it was.

There's a version in the Grimms' tales, too.

As for Hephaestus, yes. Another parallel with Loki is how the medieval and Renaisance writers equated him with Satan; I actually got a bit teary-eyed when I read the passage about how anger is a good thing. When you grow up with a disability, you learn very early that the only emotion you're allowed to express is "happy," if you display anger, you're being greedy -- putting unfair demands on the "generous" caregivers around you. If you express sadness or depression, you're chided for being and burden, and reminded that no one will want you, unless you're cheerful (if not always in so many words, than in the subtext).

While deciding which stories to post next in my blog, I was reading the Grimms' "Tom Thumb" (actually, in the German, he's named Thumbthick). He's a trickster, too -- first convincing his father to sell him for money, and then tricking the people who bought him into letting him go; getting himself (accidentally) swallowed by a wolf, and then tricking the wolf into taking him home again.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 03:22 PM

It is neat, CU, the way folks have so much to share when you open up such a great idea! I've got more books to search through, but one story which is sort of related is Why the Evergreens Keep Their Leaves in Winter...they are the only trees which will help care for a lame bird which cannot fly south. Are you familiar with it? There is a nice version in a book my grandma gave me which she used, How to Tell Stories to Children, which story is available about 2/3rds of the way down on THIS PAGE


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 04:18 PM

I loved the story of the old woman as a child - in the version we had, it was a fairy, and the old woman "never thought to say thank you to the fairy".

The Emelya story starts like the fish story you mention, but ends up differently, as Emelya doesn't quite overstretch himself.

The Hephaestos/Satan parallel reminds me of some books that popped up at school. I'm not sure if the author was the graphic artist who did the pictures - they were graphic versions. The first I came across was Genesis, and it was literal in interpretation. The second was Prometheus, and it was told through the same eyes as Genesis, emphasising how wrong P was to oppose Zeus, totally regardless of how Zeus came to be king of the gods, or what sort of being he was. It was wrong to rebel against the king. I'm not sure if she did a Norse book with Loki, or if I have imagined how she would have done it.

After reading her on Prometheus, I could quite have turned sympathetic to Satan as well. I like your attitude to Hephaestos - despite all, he was one of the good guys.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 04:56 PM

As I got no response to my last posting, can I safely assume that nothing has changed?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 11:21 PM

Jim -- I honestly can't answer your question, as I have no idea.

The blog I've started (which is what this thread is about) is intended to share specific stories with specific themes and discuss them in a written format; it's more of a literary endeavor, with a bending toward social justice in the form of addressing the ills of Ableism / Disablism.

I do admire oral storytelling, though, and your question / concern is a valid one.

And I think it deserves a thread of its own.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 12:11 PM

I have checked up the use of mercury in bronze. It wasn't and it isn't, though lead has been. The poisonous effects of mercury do not match the described problems of smiths.

One poster on the science site with some experience suggested that the work operating the bellows could account for the disability. I do recall that in one case in myth (Wayland?) the damage was deliberately caused by the employer cutting the hamstrings to prevent the smith going to work for another.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 01:15 PM

That story of catching and releasing a fish is used symbolically in Chingiz Aitmatov's novel "The Day Lasts More Than A Thousand Years", written in the 1970s, I think. It's set near the Aral Sea - Aitmatov was from one of the Turkic peoples of Central Asia. So I'd guess the folktale got there too.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 02:25 AM

Penny -- *nod* I may have mis-remembered, and my brain put in mercury where lead should have been.

Though -- and this will be one of the points I will make in my B.A.D.D. entry, in a week -- the focus on how smithing causes lameness distracts from the point that, maybe, so many Smith gods were depicted as lame is because it is the sort of work a real lame person could do, with a little bit of adaptation. As contemporary paintings of Hephaestus show, the god often worked sitting down. And smiths' workshops were places where many people worked with divided labor, so if help was needed, helpers were there.

Hence, my comment up the thread that I wonder if 3,000 years from now archeologists and anthropologists will speculate how singing the blues "Causes" blindneess.

Jack -- or maybe the story of the wish-granting fist started in Asia. Many times, I've encountered the argument that "Cinderella" started in ancient China, and that the fascination with her small feet is an outgrowth of the practice of Foot binding.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 01:53 PM

It's taken longer than I expected to write, but my next entry is up in my blog -- the first full telling of a Grimms tale:

The tale of Thumbling: Making your way through a world that doesn't fit.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 12:22 PM

It might be interesting to see how the same themes might NOT recur worldwide, to see if some of them are culturally specific. The smith-god Ilmarinen in Finnish mythology is not lame, unlike his Indo-European counterparts.

One of the largest bodies of coherently preserved myth from anywhere is the Nart legends of the Caucasus. There is a good collection of these:

http://www.circassianworld.com/nartsagas.html

They often parallel Greek or Norse legend, but at least linguistically, the Caucasian peoples have been separated from the Indo-Europeans (and anybody else) for more than 10,000 years. I don't recall which if any personas in them are disabled.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 09:52 PM

Thanks, Jack. I'm always looking for new sources of stories. And I'll check them out.

There is also a danger of projecting my own experiences into any story I encounter, but the positive side of that is that I might recognize a metaphor for disability that would sail right over the head of a three-time (non-Para-) Olympian. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 01 May 11 - 09:12 PM

I spent yesterday and today writing this piece for "Blogging Against Disablism Day;" It also happens to be about the (Greek) Smith God Hephaestus, so I figure it's doubly appropriate for Beltaine.

The Lame Smith God, and the Two Sides of "Myth."

I wrote (What I thought was) most of it last night. I almost published it right then, but decided to sleep on it, first.

Then, when I woke up, I realized I really did want to expand it in order to talk about how invention of technologies (Hephaestus's sphere) and physical disability really are connected. And so that meant hunting down more links (and almost getting caught up in reading them all, 'cause oh my frog, so interesting).


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Penny S.
Date: 06 May 11 - 05:47 AM

That's really interesting - and it shows that the Greeks did have wheelchairs - since if devising a mobile chair with wings for the god, wheels would not be necessary. The wings were added to an existing device for the disabled.

In the same way, though not helpful for knowing about disability, an Anglo-Saxon illustration shows the fixings for Wayland's wings (in a Daedalus parallel, not related to his disability). These are clearly no use at all for a flying device, but exactly like the means used by primary school teachers to fix angels' wings in Nativity plays - suggesting that the illustrator had seen a drama based on the Wayland story - or it does to me.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 08 May 11 - 01:51 AM

Penny -- whether or not the ancient Greeks had wheelchairs as we recognize them, I'm not so sure. But as one of my fellow BADD bloggers pointed out, the ancients of many cultures did have chariots, and there's a good possibility (as far as I know, not backed up by "hard" evidence) that the mobility impaired could have used chariots as their "assistive tech" as needed. King Tut (who had weak bones thanks to family inbreeding and walked with canes) is certainly shown doing all his hunting from a chariot, in the tomb paintings.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:28 AM

I see that this thread is now mature enough to include links to songs in the DT -- yet I can think of several that are left out. What spurs a link? Is it automatic, based on keywords? Or some MudElf's manual imput?

Hm. In any case, if I mention a specific song, it's gotta help establish a top link, right?

So: It's not just what you're born with by Si Kahn (Great song, though personally, I think it's last verses are a weakness, and it's self-consciously modern, so outside the scope of the blog I'm working on)

Old woman from Wexford (Woman deliberately feeds her husband a meal to make him blind)

Mrs. McGrath (Son returns from war with two prosthetic legs).

Johnny, I hardly knew ye (Husband returns from war a "basket case")


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 08 May 11 - 01:35 PM

A rare piece of true Northumbriana:

I hear old Corby lies in his sleep; grave digging was his occupation
Or ringing the bell, the church to keep; or dusting the pews upon occasion

Aye lame of arm with but one leg; some charity Jack was deserving
But he was too bashful to gan oot an beg; and he'd rather prefer half starving

And his speech and manners, oh they were uncouth; but firm and staunch upon occasion
And he always bluntly told the truth; withoot the smallest deviation

But to hunt the fox was his delight; to get sly Reynard in his clutches
He stopped the fox holes up by night; and by day, he hunted on his crutches

Whenever the fox was in full view; no footman with Jack could keep stitches
As Jack away on his crutches flew; louping nimbly ower hedges and ditches

but now his hunting days are done; we hope he'll not be forgotten
it's hoped he will meet up at last; with the honest sportsmen in heaven


(Jack Corby was a sexton at Bedlington in Northumberland who lost a leg in his youth; the anonymous verses were published in The Blyth Gleaner on the occasion of his death in 1819)


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 09 May 11 - 02:40 AM

Thanks Suibhne! That line "..louping ower hedges and ditches" reminds me of how much I hate those "disability awareness" exercises where able-bodied people are encouraged to try getting around on crutches, or maneuver through a room blindfolded.

The truth is, the only thing this "teaches" is that life with a disability is HARD, and the Disabled are such heroes!!! And their lives are so tragic!!!

yadda yadda.

It takes a lot longer than an hour or a day to get comfortable with crutches or chair, but once you do (and Jack had nigh a whole lifetime), you can be as graceful and athletic as your natuaral bent allows (some of us, even some able-bodied people, are happiest as armchair jockeys).


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 29 May 11 - 05:20 PM

Well, I'm not so disciplined, yet, as to post on a regular schedule, but I seem to be posting an average of four entries a month. Here is:

The May archive for Plato's Nightmare / Aesop's Dream

The hardest part is deciding on which tales to post about when, so that there is a variety of cultures and types of disability and attitudes toward the same depicted...

Hm.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 May 11 - 08:00 PM

I was just wondering about you, today, CU. You are doing better than I at keeping to the blogging! Great stuff!


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 May 11 - 08:13 PM

re your last entry: the use of "lame" to mean "inadequate" is American. In other parts of the English-speaking world the literal meaning is much more common (though maybe more often applied to animals, like dogs or racehorses).

Over here, if I heard somebody using it to mean "failed" or whatever, I'd think they either were or or were impersonating a not very bright American college student.

I wonder if it has a similar background to "dumb"? (Which in American English is the result of a borrowing from German which has nothing to do with lack of speech).


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 29 May 11 - 10:43 PM

Thanks, Kat! I'm trying. Specifically, trying to avoid writing only about Grimms' tales, which is what I know best.

Thanks for the insight, Jack... By "over here" you mean in the U.K.? In the Disability Blogosphere, I've also seen the word noted as an insult among those from Canada and Australia as well....

It might be one of those "damned Colonials!" things.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 04:31 PM

Welsh Gyspy story The Squirrel and the Fox collected by John Sampson (XXI Gyspy Folk Tales, 1933) there is an old woman without limbs. Whether she was born that way or was disabled in later life we are not told

Hey, Suibhne -- That book just arrived in the mail, yesterday, and I read "The Squirrel and the Fox" before bed. It is, actually mentioned:

"The old woman had neither arms nor legs: thus she had been born."

It is, as you suggested, a very meaty story. I think I'll have to let it ferment in my mind for a bit, though, before I write a post about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 04:40 PM

The latest two entries are up:

The Girl Without Hands -- Physical Disability as a "Divine Mark": Monstrosity Versus Humanity (June 11)

The Lame Man, the Blind Man, and the Donkey, a Fable on the Birth of a Fable (June 21)

This second one may be of particular interest to Mudcatters. It turns out, I was an eyewitness to the Folk Process, without even realizing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 06:28 PM

I didn't think anything was wrong with Rumplestiltskin until he ripped himself in half, which I thought showed amazing strength.

GREAT thread, CU!


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 07:41 PM

Yes, you're right, Mrrzy. I think (maybe) Rumpelstilskin is referred to as a "dwarf" in some translations.

But -- that is a name for a specific type of supernatural being related to fairies and elves. The use of "Dwarf" to refer to humans with a genetic trait of disproportionally short limbs is borrowed from the folklore belief, if I am not mistaken.

And, Thanks, Mrrzy!


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 02:09 PM

Suibhne Astray -- I've got the paperback version of John Sampson's Gypsy Folk Tales in front of me right now, and I'm in the process of transcribing "The Squirrel and the Fox."

AIUI, since Sampson died in 1931, the stories are just recently in the Public Domain (Life of the author, plus 70 years).

But the blurb on the back only says:

"To collect these stories, Sampson lived at the end of the last century with Romany fiddlers, harpers, fishermen, and basket-makers in the Welsh mountains where the gypsies spoke one of the purest and richest Romany dialects of Europe."

And the foreword, dated May 1, 1933, is ascribed only to a D.E.Y., with no full name given. And neither does this piece give any specific information on when Sampson collected these stories (though it goes to great lengths to describe and romanticize the authentic gypsy tellers from which he heard the tales).

I was wondering if you or anyone else, had any more specific information.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 12:13 AM

CU, just read your posting about the Lame Man, Blind Man and Donkey AND your mother. Excellent and what a wonderful advocate your mom was. I love the story and the meanings which come from it. Thanks for sharing.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 02:20 AM

Thanks, Kat.

Yes, I truly believe that, of all the privileges bestowed upon me, growing up, the greatest privilege of all was having her as a mother.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 07:53 PM

I've just posted "The Squirrel and the Fox," with my reactions, here.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 07:53 PM

I've loved the Sampson tales all my life; many are clear analogues of other stories from the Indo-European tradition, like The King of the Herrings which reduces The Golden Bird to its consummate essence, and Frosty (which no matter where it crops up always features the uncommon boat motif either in part or in whole). But others are quite unique - an especial favourite is the rollicking bawdy domestic strife of Three Priests - & The Squirrel and the Fox is narrative perfection. Having been telling the latter in my work now for 20 years or more it always surprises me to read the Sampson text afresh. As for Jack being able to 'hear' the animals, the myth still persists that blind people have a more attuned sense of hearing. Whatever the case, as a narrative device it broadcasts the inevitable with delicious effectiveness.


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 02:44 AM

Interesting point about the belief about blind people having super hearing. That may indeed be part of it, but then again, animals and humans often have the power to to understand each other, in folktales, so there's that, too.

Actually, that half of the story, where Jack is solving the town's problems, reminded me a good bit of the Grimms tale "The Devil's Three Golden Hairs," where, in order to get rid (he thinks) of an unworthy suitor, a king sends the hero on a mission to Hell to bring back the three hairs of the title. On his journey to Hell, the hero is asked three questions -- in the first town he comes to, there's a well which used to flow with wine, but is now completely dry -- the second has a tree which used to give golden apples, but is now won't bear any fruit at all, and, just before he gets to Hell, he meets a ferryman who can never rest. And he promises to tell each one the answer to their problems on the way back.

Jack, of course, comes to a single town afflicted all at once...


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Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 05:19 AM

Indeed - could be a simple case of anthropomorphism, but in living with the story all these years I've always felt The Blind Jack operates on a different level of initiation to his previous seeing-self. His willingness to blind himself is another fascinating piece of apparant idiocy in this respect. In emphasis of this I always make clear that the eyes Jack removes were bown, whereas the eyes he gets are blue (which of course makes him more desirable to the giant's daughter later on). Once, whilst on a particularly rollicking roll, I free-styled an entire sequence of self-mutilation in which Jack doesn't just remove his eyes, but pays for more food by removing teeth and limbs as well, and finally his very heart - but my young woodland audience were in a gruesome mood that night! How he got them back was by waiting for the autumn and for the various leaves, seeds, twigs, galls, mast, acorns, keys, etc etc. to fall from the various trees in the woodland, in further emphasis of death / ressurection / initiation I suppose, and even then he had to wait until the spring before the magic tood full effect. I only did this to flesh the bones of the story several members of that night's audience had heard me tell the night before. Listening back to a tape of the performance though I was amazed at how well it all fitted together (thus vindicating my ideas with respect of The Storyteller as Shamanic Medium). In this respect, the Sampson collection contains some potent tales, not least of them being The Squirrel and the Fox.

A wee aside: one time I told it as part of an afternoon festival session and a family had to leave (for whatever reason) half way through. In fact, they left at the point Jack falls beneath the tree, blind, and not caring if lives or dies, before the eponymous beasts put in their appearance. At this point I generally sing a brief but creepy ballad - The Witch Mother, The Twa Corbies, Long Lankin or Child Owlett. The next day, the family sought me out with their two young sons telling me they'd both had very troubled nights because they were worried about what would become of Jack in the story. This is what comes of only hearing only half a tale! So - after a brief story-so-far for the benefir of other passers-by* I gave them a full telling of the more comedic Part Two. We were in the Market Place of a Northumbrian Market Town so we picked up quite an audience, but my focus was on the two brothers (!). Afterwards an old woman stepped up to the mother of the boys and said: "You don't want to let your lads listen to stuff like that - they'll never get to sleep tonight."
"Oh no," quoth the Mum with a grin, "Quite the opposite - it'll help them sleep better!"

* In telling in a festival situation I always do a story-so-far for any latecomers - usually getting the kids to help me. It cements the audience, and brings the stories alive in the hearts of the community.


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