Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:11 PM You have a situation where there's been an official warning that the city needs to be abandoned because of a hurricane - and you charge them bus fares to be evacuated; and you have people who are scared to leave because they haven't the money to pay for a place to live and for food to eat when they get there? This is "free enterprise" and "the market economy" gone completely crazy. And this is the model of how to run a society that is supposed to be copied by other countries all over the world - and even imposed on them by economic pressure and even military force? I only hope that this is going to open people's eyes to what kind of primrose path they are being led down by those who are selling these sort of ideas. Last year in Cuba there was Hurricane Dennis, and it meant one and a half million people having to be evacuated in one hell of a hurry. Terrible devastation was caused, and the cost was estimated at $1.4 billion. But the total death roll was 16. Which was considered unexpectedly (and no doubt in Bush terms "unacceptably") high by the people in gharge. "The level of disaster preparedness in Cuba is extremely high and it is thanks to this that even more losses of lifeand property was prevented. In advance of the hurricane local authorities evacuated over 1.5 million people, including thousands of tourists, to safer areas. Of these, 245,106 people were moved to State provided shelters and the rest of the people weathered the storm in the homes of family and friends, 8 million people were at risk. About 475,000 animals were evacuated, 225,000 cows and 170,000 chickens. (Oxfam Canada) Perhaps the USA could consider contracting out the job of dealing with natural disasters to Fidel Castro... |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: CarolC Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:15 PM Yes, it appears that the government of Cuba actually cares about its citizens. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Peace Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:16 PM Cuba made an offer to the US to help. Does anyone know if it was accepted? |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Bill Hahn//\\ Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:40 PM This whole thing has brought to the fore the wide schisms in the nation. An inept and uncaring administration. The sad fact that the economy is going to hell---and the oil CEOs will still be rcvng their multimillion salaries. Aside from all of the above. I was listening to some callers to a local station here that was talking of what can be done to help---many offered their homes, food, air fares, etc; I kept thinking--great Capitalistic economy---so ==where are the offers of lodging and food from the hoteliers and the food chains---read---Trump/Hilton/Hyatt/etc; Are only the downtrodden and middleclass relegated to helping? You can rest assured that rebuilding will make the magnates more millions. I understand that Halliburton has already been called in---at their usual price. And we pay for it. I must, however, agree with one of the above correspondents---it is, as I said too, classism as opposed to racism. It certainly is a comfort to know that the person in charge of the FEMA activities was a political appointee who's last position was with an Arabian Horse Assoc.---bet he knows a few well placed Saudis. Never hurts---perhaps he can get us robes and nurkas wholesale. CHeck below for a brillian piece I rcvd via e mail today: Subject: FW: REMEMBER MICHAEL MOORE? Friday, September 2nd, 2005 Dear Mr. Bush: Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag. Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with? Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her! I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike? And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ! On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that. There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland. No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this! You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit. Yours, Michael Moore MMFlint@aol.com www.MichaelMoore.com P.S. That annoying mother, Cindy Sheehan, is no longer at your ranch. She and dozens of other relatives of the Iraqi War dead are now driving across the country, stopping in many cities along the way. Maybe you can catch up with them before they get to DC on September 21st. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Bill Hahn//\\ Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:42 PM Did not mean to leave out my name: Bill Hahn |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:55 PM SRS, what's your source for this: "There WAS public transportation to be had, if residents had elected to use it." You've argued that as New Orleans is majority African American (which I think we knew already) then obviously most of the victims would be black and therefore there was no racism at play. Had it crossed your mind that this might have been a subconcious factor in the decision to withdraw funding for flood defences? I have read that in meetings to plan the response in the event of a major hurricane hitting New Orleans, the question was several times raised about those who would not be able to evacuate. People then looked uneasily at each other but had no answers. I wonder if flood-defence funding would have been withdrawn from Long Island or Boston had either of those been one of the country's three biggest disaster risks? |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Stilly River Sage Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:13 PM Had it crossed your mind that this might have been a subconcious factor in the decision to withdraw funding for flood defences? No. And shame on you for suggesting it. It's that kind of idocy that STARTED this thread. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Bill Hahn//\\ Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:24 PM WOW!!! Wish I knew how to make that larger. I am surprised, srs, that you are alive after having your head in the sand so long---breathing must have been very hard. Perhaps as hard as the poor folks trying to overcome the stench, crowding, and sad events that engulfed them are suffering. Tough to get on a bus without a fare. Sadly, we find it better to send expensive helicopters to rescue some people rather than to evacuate them early for no charge on a bus. I am sure that the appeances by cabinet members in pressed shirts and platitudes are a really warming momemt for the sad multitudes that are suffering. But--as said before---the people are asked for donations to help. The Hyatts, Trumps, et al are still renting rooms---and selling food. We--sadly--make money on wars and calamities. Even wars we start to help the economy---and now are biting us in the proverbial----ass Bill Hahn |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:39 PM Nothing ridiculous about it that I can see. Isn't the practice of favouring publicly funded projects in places where they will help win votes and protect candidates from defeat (and vice versa) quite common in the USA? Isn't there even a term "pork-barrelling" that's been coined for it? Discriminating in practice against black Americans - for example downgrading public projects especially affecting them (such as maintainance and improvement of the New Orleans levees) wouldn't have to be done on the basis that they were black. Doing it on a basis of voting records and expectations would have exactly the same effect. And very few black Americans were likely to vote for Bush, even before New Orleans was washed away. (Nobody will ever have a chance to do so ever again now, of course.) |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: GUEST Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:42 PM I AM GLAD I LIVE IN AUSTRALIA |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: SINSULL Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:01 PM Why was a busload of hotel evacuees put on evacuation buses ahead of the people who sat for days without water, food, or sanitation? Not discrimination based on race or money? What then? |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Stilly River Sage Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:03 PM Excuse me for suggesting you're naive, BillH, but you need to learn to think outside of that little box you have your head crammed into. In the face of a hurricane and the order to evacuate, do you really think the bus driver is going to keep someone off of the bus because they don't have a buck? Really? Think about it. The order goes out. The driver knows the area, and knows there won't be many more runs and knows this is a matter of saving lives. Most of the bus drivers I have met in my life (and I've ridden a lot of buses over the years, in many urban areas) are nice folks and would understand this. Many of them would bend over backward to help people. So don't give me the nonsense about not being able to afford the bus. SRS |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Stilly River Sage Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:12 PM Geez, let's hope that's a spoof. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: CarolC Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:57 PM SRS, can you please provide documentation that there was, in fact, public tranportation going OUT of the area to be evacuated? It would seem to me that the bus drivers would be sitting in that evacuation traffic in their family cars with their families evacuating the area along with everyone else. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 05 Sep 05 - 11:09 PM Nah - can't be ol' Marty! I can tell - he didn't use his favourite word - he woulda said 'shit for brains'... :-) |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Stilly River Sage Date: 05 Sep 05 - 11:18 PM Carol, you go get the proof that they WEREN'T trying to save people. I'm tired of arguing with you on these points. Bus drivers have been badly maligned in this whole argument. Next thing, someone is going to start a thread called "New Orleans: America's Palestine." SRS |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Bill Hahn//\\ Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:20 AM GEE--SRS---my head is in a box and yours is stuck in the sand so I wonder how you know how generous Ralph Cramden would be----bet he would have had a money making scheme that Norton would have disabused him of. I am still trying to figure out how you came to the conclusion that bus drivers are the topic of this thread---unless you are Ed Norton and got overcome by sewer fumes. Bill Hahn |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:28 AM Bill H, it isn't your fault. You don't seem to have the critical thinking skills that let you examine the issue and figure out what is important and what isn't. The nonsense of "genocide" was dispatched early in the thread. My head isn't in the sand, it is squarely on my shoulders and is thinking about what is going on and examining the agendas of the various folks posting here. There is some hefty baggage being slung around in this thread, and if you're not up to keeping score, go do some research. SRS |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Sep 05 - 10:22 AM I thought about my last post overnight--I should apologize to BillH, whose measure I haven't taken as far as his approach to discourse. We haven't crossed paths often. I will simply restate that last observation to note that he isn't showing evidence of critical thinking on this particular issue--it's too emotional right now. I don't know how his reasoning processes work on other topics. SRS |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:52 AM You know, all this fine political/social intellectualizing could easily end up robbing the main participants of experiencing any real life at all. What if an airplane crashed through your ceiling right now...and you died...and found yourself suddenly in Spirit realizing that you had done fuck-all with your restless mind in the past 7 months besides typing on a damned computer keyboard! Would it matter anymore who won the argument? |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: CarolC Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:16 PM Carol, you go get the proof that they WEREN'T trying to save people. I'm tired of arguing with you on these points. Bus drivers have been badly maligned in this whole argument. Pretty much all of the authority figures on the ground in the area have said that most of the people who were left behind didn't have access to transportation out of the area. Many of the people who were left behind who have been interviewed have said they didn't have access to any transportation out of the area. If that's not enough proof for you, your problems are bigger than you realize, and they have nothing to do with me. The bus drivers are NOT being maligned in any way. They shouldn't have been expected to solve a problem that was the responsibility of FEMA and the government. Next thing, someone is going to start a thread called "New Orleans: America's Palestine." Clearly you are not above taking cheap shots at people with whom you disagree. Nice going, Maggie. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: GUEST,CCO Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:24 PM The ego likes to argue, likes to "win" the argument, and takes absolute delight in ruining friendships in the process. It values the victory more than the friendship. Be warned. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: John Hardly Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:34 PM ironic post from you, LH. *BG* Interesting how uncomfortable everyone suddenly seems to be with mudcatters engaging in a disagreement. Why, suddenly, are so many people so interested in not continuing the arguement? Arguing is most of what goes on "below the line" -- that and general bitching (that's where everyone waxes eloquent on what's wrong with the world and nobody calls them on it - nobody dares disagree). Why is this arguement any different? |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:44 PM I posted that, John, because I am subject to that same computer/internet addiction myself. I am keenly aware of it. The only way I can escape it for long is by leaving home (I don't have a laptop to take on the road with me). It's like a testimonial at an AA meeting for me to say that. ;-) I haven't beat it yet, but I hope to God I do, because it's robbing me of much of my life...and to utterly no real purpose whatsoever. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:01 PM Last I read the Crocs are having one helluva picnic! and eating live people as well, so much for the fence sitters! Here in SA Tx we are doing best we can- our house sent a carload of groceries and some money through local agencies. BTW Of the total New Orleans population of 450000,Texas has taken around 230000 people so far; and, some other states are taking in some of these folks eg California where good ole San Diego is first at the plate, course I could have predicted that one! knowing what I do about LA and San Francisco ... |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Wesley S Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:23 PM I noticed that Kirsten started this thread and hasn't returned. It makes me wonder which Kirsten considers most important - dialogue or diatribe ? |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: CarolC Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:36 PM LH, for many of us, this is not about winning arguments. It is about trying to save our country and our society, which is going to hell, fast, in a handbasket. Discussions in the public arena (and the Mudcat is a part of the public arena), are an important part of how societies try to correct the problems they face. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Donuel Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:47 PM joke by don H. based on the actual experience of the mayor of Hattisburg who called FEMA and did not get a call back for 7 days: " You have reached the office of the Federal Emergency Management Agency who has outsourced all emergency planning to a private contractor*. We are currently on vacation until the 2nd week of September. If this is a real national emergency please hang up and call Canada." * true. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:12 PM
Nope, not good enough. Send some links or citations. I won't accept your telling of the thing to defend your position. Send someone else's story, with a link to a legitimate media outlet, not a blog somewhere. It's time you stopped analyzing people who argue with you as if they must be nuts because they don't agree with you. I've tried on several occasions to discuss things where you got your wind up, but your nasty rebuttals to all and sundry show no care for the fact that we agree on many things. You convince me again that you're more interested in the argument than in the relationships that exist here at Mudcat. I'm sorry for that. Meanwhile, you're so terribly willing to blame everyone EXCEPT the people who didn't get themselves out of harms way. The biggest part of the responsibility lay with the individuals themselves to go when they were told to do so. The adults have free-agency and had to act on behalf of themselves and their children. Many of them made bad decisions, to try to protect property instead of life and limb. Those who did evacuate and go to the places set aside for use were doing what they were told and really were, along with those too ill to be moved and thus not moved at all, the first order victims in this horror, in the lack of care they received in the place they were stuck in. But before you launch into another jeremiad, stop and think. No one is ever going to be able to truly parse out the real versus the imagined and the attributed reasons people didn't leave their homes in the path of the storm. A lot of people simply made a bad decision to stay. A lot of people for whatever reason weren't paying attention and didn't or couldn't get out when they realized how bad it was. And a lot of people are probably kicking themselves from here to next Tuesday for deciding to stay. But I doubt they're admitting it on national television and for the print media. It's too easy to suggest that they couldn't get out rather than that they didn't bother or waited too long until escape was no longer manageable through the usual channels. There are many many true victims here. That isn't in dispute. But many who were caught up in this were the agents of their own misfortune. I'm not going to try to identify who had what thought. I am pointing out that there were a lot of bad reasons for staying. There are still people who refuse to leave. On the radio this morning they followed some guys in a flat-bottomed boat who were in that Ninth Ward trying to rescue the last few. There were three guys on a balcony with no articulated good reason for staying, but refusing to leave. I think the boatmen were pretty canny in surmising that those three had something to hide or were sticking around to loot. FEMA is a disgrace. But that's part two of the story. Once people found themselves in such a horrible situation, they all needed to be rescued. The reasons become moot. And George Bush's new and improved FEMA, politically-charged and top heavy as it is, is a big part of the problem, but to loop back around to the original essay, the problem wasn't genocidal. Letting Bush rework FEMA in with all of his Homeland Security nonsense was SRS |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:12 PM I listened to the Druge Report on Sunday night. He replayed an interview with the Mayor of New Orleans from last Sunday night- just hours before the storm. WHAT A F*ING JOKE! The mayor was calm drinking from his Starbucks coffee. He told Druge how well the evacuation was going and how everying was proceeding smoothly. When asked about opening the airport or convention center he said there was no need. The superdome was just fine. The mayor said that the levees could only handle a level 3 and they were predicting a level 5 but he felt that if the levees broke, it could be pumped out in a week without any real problem. WHAT GROSS INCOMPETENCE BY A DEMOCRATIC BLACK MAYOR. (the racism claim is so bogus) The mayor opened the Superdome but never thought to stock it with food or water . DUH! The mayor had an emergency plan to use public busses and tranist to evacuate poor people but he never used them. He preferred to spend most of his time on TV with photo ops. Was he ever at the Superdome like Rudy was at ground zero? The DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR was also a miserable failure. According to the mayor (also played on Drudge this past Sunday) he had Bush and the governor in a room and told them they must get on the same page and that he wouldn't leave until they resolved the issues. According to the mayor, Bush offered two proposals. The governor said she needed 24 hours to review the two proposals and she would get back with them. WHAT A DISCRACE! She didn't have 24 hours. How many people died in those 24 hours. She also refused to turn over the national guard to the feds. Once the feds came in, the General got 20,000 people removed in a single day. (great job by the military in saving lives) Meanwhile, 1/3 of the New orleans police force resigns while others are caught on camera looting stores. Senator Landreax's response is that she would punch Bush in the mouth. That really is productive. The entire Lousiana government (mostly democratic) was a miserable failure from mayor, to senator to governor. They had an emergency plan and didn't follow it resulting in the death of thousands of their citizens. And all they can go is blame Bush and each other. Bush was 24 hours late, (no excuse for that either) and FEMA was horrible. Yet the mudcat forum puts the blame only on Bush and Fox News.... how sad and dishonest. I urge you to listen to the interview with the mayor only hours before the storm and make up your own minds. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Azizi Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:22 PM Bush was 24 hours late???!!! Yeah, right. How did you figure that???? And I suppose you agree with Bush that FEMA's Brownie "did a heck of a job". Seems to me that Rove and company are trying desperately to shift the blame for this miserable failure. Sorry, it ain't gonna work. This is beyond sad & dishonest. It is outrageous. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: CarolC Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:28 PM Maggie, you are one of the worst offenders of the very thing you are complaining about. Just ask beardedbruce. And you have been ordering me around and bossing me and using huge brightly colored letters to tell me to shut up when you disagree with me. And I just ignored you at first because I didn't want to get into one of these kinds of arguments with you. But this is too much. You are one of the biggest hypocrites in the Mudcat when it comes to using personal attacks instead of reasoned argument. Makes me embarassed to have you arguing on the same side of the political spectrum as me. I'll get some documentation for you as soon as I can. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: GUEST,Just Passing Through Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:31 PM Diatribe, Wesley S. The person who started this thread is a hard-charging, clenched-fisted, male-hating feminist throwback to the 1960s. Look up "Kirsten Anderberg" in Google and see what kind of material you find. There's a lot of it there. She has written a whole stack of angry. ball-busting articles for various publications. The post that started this thread is typical of her writing. And she's into "vulva art," sort of like Judy Chicago. Full of rage. She's a real piece of work. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: CarolC Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:34 PM Larry K, people in Mississippi are also complaining about the failure of the federal government in carrying out its responsibilities there. Are you going to try to pin that on the mayor of New Orleans and the governor of Louisiana? |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Peace Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:37 PM I think the Louisiana state officials deserve some castigation. However, in Blanco's favour, she did ask for federal assistance on August 27, 2005. Bush played guitar. Condi shopped. Efforts to place the blame on mayors and governors--they will get their share. But Bush will get his share, too, and it's one friggin' big chunk. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:50 PM You people are so damn hung up on placing the blame on why everyone wasn't evacuated that you keep missing the big picture. Who gives a rats ass who was at fault in the beginning. Everyone gambled and lost. You can get killed jumping out of an airplane or crossing a street, even after everyone tells you the dangers. If everyone was evacuated and the storm missed, this forum would be filled with whiners complaining how the goverment wasted our money in getting everyone out of NO. Too many god damned Monday morning quarterbacks without any chance of influencing opinion. The real issue is how the situation was dealt with when the problem occured. The rest of the discussion is going nowhere and just satisfying the egos of people who like to see their opinions in print. (I guess I include myself in that!) |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: John Hardly Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:51 PM So, of the two contributing factors to the human misery in NO (excluding the actual natural disaster), which, if it had been done properly, would have made more difference as we look back on it.... 1. Lack of proper evacuation in the first place (regardless of whether or not it was volitional or not)? 2. Lack of fast federal response after the fact? |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: CarolC Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:10 PM Both, John. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:15 PM Interesting stuff about the mayor's early broadcast Larry K, well worth keeping in mind as part of the whole picture. But surely you've downplayed Bush's failures, and his sheer inadequacy for the moment (almost everyone I've seen interviewed has come across with more conviction and gravitas than Bush could ever show). SRS I am amazed at what a shallow debater you're showing yourself to be - willing to move the goalposts and change tack almost on a whim, simply to save your pride. For instance this thread was never about criticisimg bus drivers. That's a straw man of your own invention. It was about discrimination. We've all seen photos of scores of school buses lined up in serried ranks, long after they could have been playing a role in saving lives. No-one here is blaming the bus drivers for that, but it lends credence to the argument that nothing like enough public-transport capacity was provided to meet the need. You've responded to me with bold claims. You said that public transport WAS available for all who needed it (your emphasis, not mine). Yet when Carol C and I asked for a source, you ignored my request and rounded on Carol with venom - dmeanding, childishly, that she should prove otherwise. Frankly that's pathetic. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: CarolC Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:40 PM Here's some documentaton about the lack of transportation for many of the people who were not evacuated: From the Washington Post... "Many of the residents left in New Orleans are poor, and while some people have criticized them for failing to heed mandatory evacuation orders, many residents say they were simply unable to get out for financial or medical reasons. 'People are saying that those stuck in New Orleans now are those that wanted to stay, but that's not true," said Danelle Fleming, a New Orleans-based social worker. "They wanted to leave, but they couldn't.' She said that the city's Greyhound station was closing Saturday afternoon -- even as people without cars were trying to leave. After being rescued from her roof, Moses said she was among those unable to evacuate before the hurricane. 'My mother-in-law went out of town, but I didn't have any money, so I couldn't,' she said." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/30/AR2005083000689_2.html This is from the New Orleans Times Pickayune, in JULY, long before they even knew about hurricane Katrina, and clear demonstraton that although the local authorities were concerned for the people who were too poor to get out on their own, the local authorities just didn't have the resources to get them out. And the reason it was so important for FEMA to do its job in this situation... "In scripted appearances being recorded now, officials such as Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the word that the city does not have the resources to move out of harm's way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation." http://www.nola.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-10/1122184560198030.xml?nola |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Sep 05 - 04:54 PM "for many of us, this is not about winning arguments. It is about trying to save our country and our society" Yes, Carol, I understand that. I know you are truly concerned about the issues being discussed. What concerns me is people's tendency to break up and seriously damage their sometimes lengthy friendships with other people as a consequence of debating and discussing current issues. Why does that happen? Too much pride? Too much self-righteousness? Too thin a skin? Too much hurt? Too much need to be "right" (and therefore better than the other person)? I think it's sad and unnecessary that that happens, and I would prefer that it didn't. It must be possible to debate strenuously about things and to disagree, without permanently damaging one's relations with other people. I have known any number of cases where people on this forum decided that someone else "wasn't worth talking to" after some disagreement they had about politics, society, or whatever. They then either ostracize the other person totally or they attack them repeatedly on the forum with contempt, sarcasm, accusation, ridicule, and various other forms of thinly disguised hatred. That's what happens when people's emotions get so wrapped up in defending their rhetorical position that it poisons the dialogue. That's what I am advising against. It's not a healthy form of behaviour. If people simply cannot forgive other people's obvious lack of perfection, how the hell are they ever going to come to terms with their own lack of perfection? And that applies to the political arena too, by the way! Big time. Wars happen because a lot of people are incapable of accomodation or forgiveness. Same goes for suicide bombings. Kirsten's original post that set off this whole thread was a spectacular example of a mind that does not for a moment entertain the notion of forgiveness. Such a mind prefers to divide Life into "the good and the evil" and seek out final and bitter retribution upon the "evil" (those being, whoever the "good" don't happen to agree with about something at any given time). It's a vicious mentality. It may identify with underdogs...or overlords...but it's vicious in either case. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Bill Hahn//\\ Date: 06 Sep 05 - 04:54 PM LH: You have hit the nail on the head---sitting at a keyboard etc; Accomplishing what-----thinking what a deep thinker one is and what a great writer who is being read other really deep thinking individuals. I paraphrase---once again Will Shakespeare---Sound & Fury signifying nothing. Reminds of an old joke--these ponticating discussions here--of which I too am guilty many times: Pres. LBJ---Welcome to the White House Mr. President Pres. of Israel: Thanks---we have problems Pres. LBJ---Not like me I have the problem of 138 million people to deal with. Pres. of Israel: Yes, but in Israel I have 2 million Presidents to deal with Sounds like this forum to me Bill Hahn (brightening your day and putting all the deep thoughts into perspective) (I think I will stick with Dan Schor and Frank Rich) |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Sep 05 - 04:59 PM So true, Bill. So true. I sincerely have great compassion for people who are, like me, deeply addicted to pontificating on this forum, and I think that we might all benefit tremendously by going somewhere where there are no computers for a month or two. Seriously. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:00 PM LarryK's post was quite useful. Good perspective on what has happened. Peter, this conversation has moved forward. They do that. The focus shifts. Go back to the beginning and read through and maybe you'll see what I mean. Introduction of new aspects of an argument is a logical way to proceed. Carol, of the two, the Times-Picayune article is very good and the most useful. That's the kind of documentation needed here.
An RTA emergency plan dedicates 64 buses and 10 lift vans to move people somewhere; whether that means out of town or to local shelters of last resort would depend on emergency planners' decision at that moment, RTA spokeswoman Rosalind Cook said. But even the larger buses hold only about 60 people each, a rescue capacity that is dwarfed by the unmet need. These are the buses that I was referring to, the municipal variety, that have established routes that could be modified to take riders to the evacuation site, in this case, the SuperDome. Finding out what actually happened regarding this system that was discussed will no doubt be part of the investigation into this disastrous evacuation. Only someone acquainted with NOLA and it's neighborhoods and bus and streetcar lines will know if any or all of this could/should have been pressed into service: http://www.neworleanscvb.com/listings/index.cfm/catID/12/hit/1/sectionID/1/subsectionID/353/ Getting Around New Orleans is one of the world's busiest ports and the cultural capital of the South, yet the city is remarkably compact and easy to navigate. Visitors are always pleasantly surprised to learn that many of the city's attractions, accommodations and event venues are within walking distance of each other; in fact, "hoofing it" (in New Orleans' case, translated as walking or grabbing a mule-drawn carriage) is a favorite means of transportation in the Crescent City. But, if you prefer wheels to legs, New Orleans has a very accessible and reasonably priced public transportation system, too. It only costs $1.25 to take an RTA bus . . . or one of the city's famed streetcars, which travel St. Charles Avenue, the Riverfront and Canal Street. Where else can you actually ride on a historic landmark? Grab a free VisiTour Guide, a city map with hundreds of landmarks and attractions along with bus and streetcar schedules, and you are on your way in no time. Of course, as one of the world's top convention and meeting destinations, New Orleans also has a range of national car rental agencies, and taxi and limousine services are available around the clock. Many of the city's hotels and attractions offer free shuttle services, and there are a great variety of guided tours throughout the city and its environs. Being surrounded by water is not a complication in New Orleans; in fact, it offers one more reason to travel in style. Several luxury cruise lines call New Orleans a home port, and riverboats go rollin' on the river just like they've done for more than a century. If street traffic is tight, you can always take a ferry to Algiers or a river shuttle between Audubon Institute attractions! http://www.neworleanscvb.com/static/index.cfm/contentID/543/sectionID/1/subsectionID/0/ Bus: $1.50 will get you from the airport to Tulane Avenue near Elks Place, a few blocks from the Superdome and Canal Street. Departs every 10 minutes from 6-9 am and 3-6 pm and every 23 minutes otherwise. Operating hours: 6am-6:30 pm. St. Charles Avenue streetcar: Have you ever ridden in a national historic landmark? Shell out just $1.25, board a streetcar, and you, too, can answer "yes" to that question. Streetcars have been rumbling along St. Charles Avenue since 1835. The current route runs over 13 miles downtown from Canal Street along St. Charles, past Greek Revival mansions and raised cottages, Tulane University and Audubon Park and beyond the shops at the Riverbend, where it takes a right-hand turn onto Carrollton Avenue. The St. Charles Avenue streetcar made its inaugural run as the Carrollton Railroad, which shuttled passengers between the French Quarter and the resort town of Carrollton. Thousands of residents still commute to work on the 35 olive-green electric cars. Riverfront streetcar: For $1.25, you can ride the new red streetcars, handcrafted in New Orleans by woodworkers and metal smiths. The two-mile route of the Ladies in Red includes stops at all the right places: the Convention Center at Julia Street, Riverwalk, the Aquarium of the Americas, the French Market and the Old Mint on Esplanade. Canal Streetcar: After a 40-year absence, streetcars have returned to Canal Street in 2004, a central artery of New Orleans that forms one of the boundaries of the French Quarter. On the Canal streetcar line, passengers can ride over four miles from the Mississippi to the city's famed cemeteries, with a "spur" near the end leading to the New Orleans Museum of Art in City Park. The 24 new streetcars on the line closely resemble the historic Perley Thomas 900 Series cars that currently operate on the St. Charles Avenue line, and which ran on Canal Street until that line was discontinued in 1964. Traditional in appearance, they will offer two welcome updates: wheelchair accessibility and air conditioning. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Ebbie Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:07 PM Come to the Getaway, Little Hawk. NO computers, no phones, no radios, no television. Or at least, none that I heard. There is a big TV in the big room but I don't know if it works. We didn't even think of turning it on. One month? Hmmmmmm. It was ALMIGHTY cold. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: CarolC Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:08 PM LH, I agree with you about the ways in which people can be destructive in discussions in places like the Mudcat. But I cannot agree with you if you are suggesting that these discussions don't serve an important function. They really do, even if you can't see it yourself. Think about it though... when, in the history of humankind, did we ever have such an amazing opportunity to get out of our locally defined way of looking at the world and to be able to see things from the perspective of so many people in so many parts of the world? Although you may not see it, this is precisely what humankind needs right now to help each of us become more empowered to do what is needed, and to make the world a better place. When we are able to find things out for ourselves instead of having all of our thoughts and our information spoon fed to us by our "designated thinkers". This is an amazing time we are living in. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:09 PM Sounds like paradise, Ebbie. I loved Cuba. Not a friggin' computer in sight, and people were doing things instead of watching other people do those things on a TV screen. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: CarolC Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:12 PM The municipal busses were being used to get people to the shelters like the Superdome and the Convention Center. Had it been possible to use them for getting everyone without cars out of the city entirely, I don't think Mayor Nagin would have said that the local authorities didn't have the resources to get everone without cars evacuated. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:35 PM So, of the two contributing factors to the human misery in NO (excluding the actual natural disaster), which, if it had been done properly, would have made more difference as we look back on it.... 1. Lack of proper evacuation in the first place (regardless of whether or not it was volitional or not)? 2. Lack of fast federal response after the fact?(John Hardly) If there'd been a proper evacuation (see the quote about how Cuba managed that last year) the people would have been out of harms way, so there woudln't have been such a need for fast federal response (and more help could have been chanelled to all the other Gulf communities that have been wrecked and virtually ignored, according to our media coverage in the UK). But while it is possible (if you really try) to come up with some kind of explanations and half-excuses for the evacuation failure, and at least some of those staying behind did it of their own volition, the failure to respond quickly and adequately after the disaster is incomprehensible and completely inexcusable. The third factor of course is how could it come about that the levees protecting New Orleans broke down so catastrophically. If that hadn't happened, while Katrina would have devastated the Gulf Coast, New Orleans would in fact have got off relatively lightly. |
Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:38 PM Yes, Carol, I can go along fine with what you said there...as long as it doesn't become a daily addiction. Then it's out of proportion. I agree that the Internet is allowing ordinary people all over the World to communicate directly with each other for the first time, and that is a tremendous opportunity to advance human awareness. |