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BS: Genocide in New Orleans

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Peace 02 Sep 05 - 10:01 PM
Pauline L 03 Sep 05 - 02:55 AM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 03 Sep 05 - 07:26 AM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 03 Sep 05 - 07:30 AM
Tam the man 03 Sep 05 - 07:35 AM
The Fooles Troupe 03 Sep 05 - 07:44 AM
The Fooles Troupe 03 Sep 05 - 07:53 AM
GUEST 03 Sep 05 - 09:27 AM
JennyO 03 Sep 05 - 11:02 AM
SINSULL 03 Sep 05 - 11:49 AM
Donuel 03 Sep 05 - 12:08 PM
Stilly River Sage 03 Sep 05 - 12:16 PM
Scoville 03 Sep 05 - 06:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Sep 05 - 07:20 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 03 Sep 05 - 07:35 PM
Peace 04 Sep 05 - 01:33 AM
Pauline L 04 Sep 05 - 01:50 AM
Peace 04 Sep 05 - 01:53 AM
GUEST,Carping Cybersnipe 04 Sep 05 - 11:16 AM
Le Scaramouche 04 Sep 05 - 11:35 AM
Stilly River Sage 04 Sep 05 - 11:54 AM
CarolC 04 Sep 05 - 03:09 PM
SharonA 04 Sep 05 - 04:03 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 04 Sep 05 - 04:46 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 04 Sep 05 - 07:53 PM
SharonA 04 Sep 05 - 09:34 PM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Sep 05 - 03:28 AM
GUEST,DB 05 Sep 05 - 07:20 AM
Stilly River Sage 05 Sep 05 - 10:30 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 05 Sep 05 - 11:35 AM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 12:08 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Sep 05 - 12:34 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 01:17 PM
katlaughing 05 Sep 05 - 01:26 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 01:36 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Sep 05 - 01:44 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 01:47 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 01:51 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 01:57 PM
Bobert 05 Sep 05 - 02:19 PM
Don Firth 05 Sep 05 - 02:27 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 02:40 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 02:51 PM
John Hardly 05 Sep 05 - 03:05 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 03:11 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 03:55 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Sep 05 - 04:12 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 04:19 PM
SINSULL 05 Sep 05 - 05:28 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 10:01 PM

Thanks, JC, for making the link work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Pauline L
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 02:55 AM

A comparison: San Francisco is built on the San Andreas Fault. People speculate about when -- not whether -- the Big One will occur. Emergency preparedness? Think about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:26 AM

Bill O'Reilly, not my favorite journalist, reports that Fox News has "established" that the state of Mississippi "had no emergency plan" for a category 5 storm.

Some perspective is in order, Hurricane Camille came ashore at Gulfport in 1969 as a category 5 with winds clocked at 200 miles per hour. It was far more severe than Katrina in that sense. Had the eye-wall hit N.O., the present situation would have come about 36 years ago.

An even worse storm, 200+ m.p.h, hit the Florida Keys in 1935.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:30 AM

A Louisiana State Police official on Fox says that N.O. was quiet last night and that earlier reports of snipers, rapes, and violence were "with a few real exceptions mostly exaggerations and rumors."


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Tam the man
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:35 AM

I wonder if Bush and friends would of being so slow if it was a city that the majorty was white.

Money comes first for Bush, people come last, However that's just my views

Tam


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:44 AM

An Australian young (white) tourist lady rang home on a borrowed mobile from the Convention Centre, and told her parents she had been attacked, had all her money, her mobile and her clothes stolen. She hasn't been heard of since.

About 24 Aussies tourists (white, of course) managed to get a hitch out of the Superdome because they were terrified. The ladies had been constantly groped, and had it not been for the tall burly looking young Aussie lads with them, might have had other threats carr
ied out. They witnessed many rapes, theft, murders and stabbings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:53 AM

It seems that The Speaker (US) has mumbled something about whether it would be economical to rebuild NO. He has been pilloried.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:27 AM

How about those pricks in the Sonesta Hotel eh?? Talk about compassion, is it any wonder those poor people in the Dome went crazy? Imagine eating gourmet meals and swimming in the pool with the devastation of Katrina outside your door.

My concern now is the flaming of racial tensions going on in the media(unless you watch Fox of course), I guess if the fuse is lit, you may as well toss the bomb.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: JennyO
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:02 AM

SRS mentioned earlier about stories emerging of resourceful survivors. I don't think anyone has linked to this story yet, but it made my day. I can't help wondering though how the young man in question will be treated over what he did. In my eyes he is a hero!

I'll post it as well as linking to it, in case the link doesn't last. There is a video of a report on it there as well.

Taking refuge in the Astrodome

Thursday, September 01, 2005   Updated: 11:32 AM

HOUSTON -- NEWSCHANNEL 5 crews were in Houston as some desperate refugees arrived in a stolen bus.

HOUSTON -- Thousands of refugees of Hurricane Katrina were transported to the Astrodome in Houston this week. In an extreme act of looting, one group actually stole a bus to escape ravaged areas in Louisiana.

About 100 people packed into the stolen bus. They were the first to enter the Houston Astrodome, but they weren't exactly welcomed.

The big yellow school bus wasn't expected or approved to pass through the stadium's gates. Randy Nathan, who was on the bus, said they were desperate to get out of town.

"If it werent for him right there," he said, "we'd still be in New Orleans underwater. He got the bus for us."

Eighteen-year-old Jabbor Gibson jumped aboard the bus as it sat abandoned on a street in New Orleans and took control.

"I just took the bus and drove all the way here...seven hours straight,' Gibson admitted. "I hadn't ever drove a bus."

The teen packed it full of complete strangers and drove to Houston. He beat thousands of evacuees slated to arrive there.

"It's better than being in New Orleans," said fellow passenger Albert McClaud, "we want to be somewhere where we're safe."

During a long and impatient delay, children popped their heads out of bus windows and mothers clutched their babies.

One 8-day-old infant spent the first days of his life surrounded by chaos. He's one of the many who are homeless and hungry.

Authorities eventually allowed the renegade passengers inside the dome. But the 18-year-old who ensured their safety could find himself in a world of trouble for stealing the school bus.

"I dont care if I get blamed for it ," Gibson said, "as long as I saved my people."

Sixty legally chartered buses were expected to arrive in Houston throughout the night. Thousands of people will be calling the Astrodome "home," at least for now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:49 AM

I stand corrected. "Genocide" is not an appropriate term for the fiasco in NO. But I can't help but wonder if the same situation occurred on LI and thousands of blond haired blue eyed long legged ladies with big hair were trapped in Nassau Coliseum, how long would it take for help to arrive or at least food and water to be dropped to them?

And from a different perspective - with all the money spent on preparing for a nuclear (nucular, if you must) terrorist attack on a major city, is this the response time we can expect?


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 12:08 PM

Kirsten:

When hurricaine diasters struck the south in the 30's and 50's, historians did not write about the plight of the black and poor.

The institution of racism back then was not challenged or examined as it is today.


Nor was there any videotape to instant replay the suffering.

PS
catch phrase of the day:
"Who are you going to believe, Bush and Chertof - or your lying eyes?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 12:16 PM

Thanks, JennyO. Locally we heard the story about that bus arriving after collecting survivors, but I hadn't heard anything about the young man who initiated the trip. It was a tough call, and I don't think he made a bad choice.

It does beg the question--if he was able to drive that bus out of New Orleans, how come other buses weren't doing the same thing all along? This story, along with the news that the Red Cross wasn't allowed into New Orleans and other resources weren't being delivered, smack of turf wars among the various rescue agencies. Was it FEMA or someone from "Homeland Security" (whatever that is) that decided that if food and water were provided to the cesspool that people might want to stay?

It does sound like there are entrenched groups, not the poor or looters or police or others, but area residents in tall buildings who are making due. That link that PoppaGator provided (http://www.uta.edu/lc/) is an example.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Scoville
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 06:22 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a single city in the U.S. with an escape plan for a storm/disaster of this magnitude. In 2000, during the coverage of the 100-year anniversary of the Galveston Flood, it was estimated that it would take a minimum of 36 hours to evacuate the island if another storm that size hit. Thirty-six hours. The 1900 hurricane didn't even last that long. What do you think the odds are of such an evacuation going as planned, even if everyone did as they were told, the bridge off the island wasn't damaged, and people weren't in a panic? Not likely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:20 PM

You have to prepare for disasters - you rehearse and you have drills and it's a pain, but that's what you do.

"I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a single city in the U.S. with an escape plan for a storm/disaster of this magnitude." Very likely true. If so it's a clear case of "Those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad" (Euripides back in the fourth century BC)

When a major city is built below sea-level in a place where hurricanes are an ever-present possibility, there is a certain duty on those in authority to respond appropriately to that situation. And, as they used to claim to believe, "the buck stops here", in the White House.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:35 PM

The magnitude was not larger than others---the problem was the skimping over the years in not financing the rebuilding of the barrier islands, the levees, etc;

New Orleans is particularly vulnerable---yet, pork barrelling alloted much money to building bridges to nowhere in Alaska, for example. Idealism and need are forgotten words in our political climate.

You have to wonder how we got to where we are as a nation given today's priorities and thinking. Probably that we had leaders and idealists at some point---some corrupt, surely---yet not of the magnitude we see today.

I won't repeat my comments re: sparcity of NG troops and Iraq.

Our revered leader had some more photo ops yesterday---interesing ones---news pictures showed mostly Black people in dire straits and his shots were hugging and commisserating with the "dear folks I have met"--all white.   And, even that is a world removed from his and his empathy.

To be fair minded---Jesse Jackson is not better---he showed up but brought a camera crew with him to cover his appearance---even some of his people yelled at him about his hypocrisy.

In the end---NO will rebuild, people will have moved to other cities, and many people--as I said earlier---will get rich on the rebuilding. It comes with our society.   Private contractors in Iraq---mucho dinero there---less for the poor folks that we urged to join the armed forces.   

I must ask---where oh where has our "morality" and "patriotism" of the WW2 years gone?    The words, even, have been comandeered to mean totally different things.   I believe we all know who has done the commandeering---and I am saddened to find that even on ex Pres. who, one might have thought, had more backbone has embraced the Bush admin. and volunteers to help whenever asked---instead of calling it for what it is. And I am not speaking of Daddy here.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 01:33 AM

Not THIS noble President by any chance:

Rory Carroll in Johannesburg
Wednesday March 31, 2004
The Guardian

"President Bill Clinton's administration knew Rwanda was being engulfed by genocide in April 1994 but buried the information to justify its inaction, according to classified documents made available for the first time.
Senior officials privately used the word genocide within 16 days of the start of the killings, but chose not to do so publicly because the president had already decided not to intervene.

Intelligence reports obtained using the US Freedom of Information Act show the cabinet and almost certainly the president had been told of a planned "final solution to eliminate all Tutsis" before the slaughter reached its peak."


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Pauline L
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 01:50 AM

I have two naive questions. Can someone please explain why (1) people are killing and raping other people in NO (I know that they're hot, tired, thirsty, hungry, and stressed, but really) and (2) Fox is not showing photos of the African Americans in deep trouble there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 01:53 AM

1) The raping and killing seems to have been exaggerated slightly.
2) Fox may not perceive Blacks to be worthy of consideration by their news network.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Carping Cybersnipe
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 11:16 AM

This is more horse shit than I can stand. But you believe it because you want to.

*Plenty* of "pictures of Black suffering" have appeared on the Fox News Channel. i've been watching it and CNN. They have shown plenty of pictures of suffering, and 99% of the people they show are Black.
No network has been downplaying Black suffering. Shepard Smith was broadcasting live outside the Superdome for at least two days, showing dead bodies on the bridge and practically shouting at O'Reilley on two coinsecutive nights to take the slowness of the rescue operation alot more seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 11:35 AM

I think a lot of people are confusing incompetence or unpreparedness with design.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 11:54 AM

Good point, Saramouche.

Here online this morning, a turning of the tide:




As last refugees escape, New Orleans turns to its thousands of dead
September 04, 2005 10:08 AM EDT

NEW ORLEANS - With the last weary refugees rescued from the Superdome and convention center, New Orleans turned its attention Sunday to gathering up and counting the dead across a ghastly landscape awash in thousands of corpses.

The bodies of those killed in Hurricane Katrina are everywhere: hidden in attics, floating in the ruined city, crumpled in wheelchairs, abandoned on highways.

"I think it's evident it's in the thousands," Health and Human Services Secretary Michael Leavitt said Sunday on CNN, echoing predictions by city and state officials last week about the death toll.

Craig Vanderwagen, rear admiral of the U.S. Public Health Service, said one morgue alone, at a St. Gabriel prison, expected 1,000 to 2,000 bodies.

"We need to prepare the country for what's coming," Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said on "Fox News Sunday." "We are going to uncover people who died hiding in the houses, maybe got caught in floods. It is going to be as ugly a scene as you can imagine."

Chertoff said rescuers going house to house have encountered a significant number of people who have said they do not want to evacuate.

"That is not a reasonable alternative," he said. "We are not going to be able to have people sitting in houses in the city of New Orleans for weeks and months while we de-water and clean this city. ... The flooded places, when they're de-watered, are not going to be sanitary."

Sunday morning, a woman's body remained lying at the corner of Jackson Avenue and Magazine Street - a business area in the lower Garden District with antique shops on the edge of blighted housing. The body had been there since at least Wednesday.

As days passed, people covered her with blankets or plastic.

By Sunday, a short wall of bricks had been built around her body, holding down a plastic tarpaulin. On it, someone had spray-painted a cross and the words, "Here lies Vera. God help us."

Charles Womack, a 30-year-old roofer, said he saw one man beaten to death and another commit suicide at the Superdome. Womack was beaten with a pipe and treated at the airport center, where bodies were kept in a refrigerated truck.

"One guy jumped off a balcony. I saw him do it. He was talking to a lady about it. He said it reminded him of the war and he couldn't leave," he said.

Three babies died at the convention center from heat exhaustion, said Mark Kyle, a medical relief provider.

But some progress was evident. The last 300 refugees at the Superdome were evacuated Saturday evening, eliciting cheers from members of the Texas National Guard who had been standing watch over the facility for nearly a week as some 20,000 hurricane survivors waited for rescue.

On Sunday, utilities planned to send trucks into the city to assess storm damage for the first time since Katrina struck. Morgan Stewart, a spokesman for electricity provider Entergy Corp., said the National Guard would escort the company's vehicles.

The convention center was "almost empty" after 4,200 people were removed, according to Marty Bahamonde, a spokesman for the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Earlier estimates of the crowd climbed as high as 25,000.

Thousands of refugees dragged their meager belongings to buses, the mood more numb than jubilant. Yolando Sanders, who had been stuck at the convention center for five days, was among those who filed past corpses to reach the buses.

"Anyplace is better than here," she said.

"People are dying over there."

Nearby, a woman lay dead in a wheelchair on the front steps. A man was covered in a black drape with a dry line of blood running to the gutter, where it had pooled. Another had lain on a chaise lounge for four days, his stocking feet poking out from under a quilt.

By mid-afternoon, only pockets of stragglers remained in the streets around the convention center, and New Orleans paramedics began carting away the dead.

The exact number of dead won't be known for some time. Survivors were still being plucked from roofs and shattered highways across the city. President Bush ordered more than 7,000 active duty forces to the Gulf Coast on Saturday.

"There are people in apartments and hotels that you didn't know were there," Army Brig. Gen. Mark Graham said.

The overwhelming majority of those stranded in the post-Katrina chaos were those without the resources to escape - and, overwhelmingly, they were black.

"The first few days were a natural disaster. The last four days were a man-made disaster," said Phillip Holt, 51, who was rescued from his home Saturday with his partner.

Tens of thousands of people had been evacuated from the city, seeking safety in Texas, Tennessee and many other states.

Texas Governor Rick Perry warned Saturday that his enormous state was running out of room, with more than 220,000 hurricane refugees camped out there and more coming. Emergency workers at the Astrodome were told to expect 10,000 new arrivals daily for the next three days.

In Washington, Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta announced that more than 10,000 people had been flown out of New Orleans in what he called the largest airlift in history on U.S. soil. He said the flights would continue as long as needed.

Thousands of people remained at Louis Armstrong New Orleans International Airport, where officials turned a Delta Blue terminal into a triage unit. Officials said 3,000 to 5,000 people had been treated at the unit, but fewer than 200 remain. Others throughout the airport awaited transport out of the city.

"In the beginning it was like trying to lasso an octopus. When we got here it was overwhelming," said Jake Jacoby, a physician helping run the center.

Airport director Roy Williams said about 30 people had died, some of them elderly and ill. The bodies were being kept in refrigerated trucks as a temporary morgue.

At the convention center, people stumbled toward the helicopters, dehydrated and nearly passing out from exhaustion. Many had to be carried by National Guard troops and police on stretchers. And some were being pushed up the street on office chairs and on dollies.

Around the corner, a motley fleet of luxury tour buses and yellow school buses lined up two deep to pick up some of the healthier refugees. National Guardsmen confiscated a gun, knives and letter openers from people before they got on the buses.

"It's been a long time coming," Derek Dabon, 29, said as he waited to pass through a guard checkpoint. "There's no way I'm coming back. To what? That don't make sense. I'm going to start a new life."

Dan Craig, the director of recovery for the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said it could take up to six months to get the water out of New Orleans, and the city would then need to dry out, which could take up to three more months.

A Saks Fifth Avenue store billowed smoke Saturday, as did rows of warehouses on the east bank of the Mississippi River, where corrugated roofs buckled and tiny explosions erupted. Gunfire - almost two dozen shots - broke out in the French Quarter.

In the French Quarter, some residents refused or did not know how to get out. Some holed up with guns.

As the warehouse district burned, Ron Seitzer, 61, washed his dirty laundry in the even dirtier waters of the Mississippi River and said he didn't know how much longer he could stay without water or power, surrounded by looters.

"I've never even had a nightmare or a beautiful dream about this," he said as he watched the warehouses burn. "People are just not themselves."

---

Associated Press reporters Kevin McGill, Robert Tanner, Melinda Deslatte, Brett Martel and Mary Foster contributed to this report.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 03:09 PM

I think a lot of people are confusing incompetence or unpreparedness with design.

Interesting point, Le Scaramouche. Something similar has been gradually dawning on me. Would you be willing to go into any more detail about your thoughts on this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 04:03 PM

Suicide in New Orleans: I heard a report on the local news this morning that two N.O. policemen were so overcome by the horror they were facing that they killed themselves. There was no mention of their ethnicity, so this may be off-topic.

On another note, Bill H says: "Our revered leader had some more photo ops yesterday---interesting ones---news pictures showed mostly Black people in dire straits and his shots were hugging and commisserating with the "dear folks I have met"--all white.   And, even that is a world removed from his and his empathy."

Actually, he had a "video op" in Mississippi hugging a young black woman and walking along with his arm draped over her shoulders, but I've read reports that it was highly staged ("Mr. Bush, walk over here, hug her, now turn and walk"... that sort of thing). As for the situation being "a world removed from his and his empathy", Bill is more correct than he may know. Bush is quoted here on www.newshounds.us referring to New Orleans as "that part of the world" as if it were a foreign country. Foreign to him, to be sure.

Bill H also asks, "Where oh where has our 'morality' and 'patriotism' of the WW2 years gone? " In light of this discussion, I couldn't help but think as I read Bill's question that the World War II years were part of the Jim Crow era, so the "morality" of that time dictated that it was acceptable to segregate, discriminate against, deny higher education and higher-paying jobs to, and even lynch African-Americans. The "patriotism" of that time dictated that it was acceptable to be proud of a government of the people, by the people and for the people while not considering certain races and ethnicities to fall under their definition of "people". Thank goodness THAT "morality" and "patriotism" is changing, but many people (especially in the Deep South) did not want that change forced upon them and they have been pushing back at it since the Civil Rights era of the 1960s.

Now, in the particular case of the N.O. evacuation debacle this week, I think the problem was incompetence and unpreparedness, not a "design" or plan to wipe out the African-American population of N.O. (For one thing, the N.O. jail was evacuated after the flood so that criminals would not break out and make the streets even more unsafe -- and most people in the video I saw of that evacuation were black -- but if there were a plan to kill off blacks and poor whites, allowing criminals to run rampant and do the killing would have been part of the plan). However, it certainly can't be denied that an undercurrent of hatred of blacks and poor whites has existed in N.O. and has proliferated under corrupt local government, so at the very least, that didn't help any!


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 04:46 PM

SRS, where would be a good place to store your food and water if your home and street was about to be destroyed? How are people supposed to evacuate, when they haven't got cars, can't afford public transport, and in any case there's no public transport to be had at any price?

The BBC carried an itneresting quote today from a guy called Musib Na'imi, writing for an Iranian publication, Al-Vefagh:

About 10,000 US National Guard troops were deployed [in New Orleans] and were granted the authority to fire at and kill whom they wanted, upon the pretext of restoring order. This decision is an indication of the US administration's militarist mentality, which regards killing as the only way to control even its own citizens.

And this from Ambrose Murunga in Kenya's Daily Nation:

My first reaction when television images of the survivors of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans came through the channels was that the producers must be showing the wrong clip. The images, and even the disproportionately high number of visibly impoverished blacks among the refugees, could easily have been a re-enactment of a scene from the pigeonholed African continent.

Interesting to see people being searched for weapons on their way into the refuges. The NRA must be seething. We'll know that normality has been restored when people have been given back their so-called right to bear arms, and they are again able to intimidate rescue services. (Where else in the world would first responders to a national emergency come under fire from among those they're trying to help?)

At what point will America wake up to the fact that caving in to low-tax, everyone-for-himself, survival-of-the-fittest attitudes results in one of the shabbiest societies on the planet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 07:53 PM

Sharon A: You make valid points. When I spoke of the WW2 era I was (unconciously) seperating it from the other wrongs---merely thinking of how we all worked together---B & W.   Was our society wrong in its mores---surely.

Another reason why this may be more "classist" than "racist". Perhaps a better description would be to describe it in Ws own words via a paraphrase----intelligent design.   Priorities of "pork" for those who matter to the fund-raising and political ends. Bridges to nowhere, hwy projects, national security dollars to empty areas, etc;

Best to read today's NY Times and Frank Rich---brilliant piece. Even their conservative op -ed writer David Brooks is taking the administration to task.    Frank Rich made one point--among many that jumped out at me---9/11--where to go for W/ N O disaster--stop in Sand Diego first for some political maneuvering---BUT Terry Schiavo--one person in the headlines---get the hell back to DC and make publicity hay.   My goodnes---a veritable FDR, Jefferson, Washington, Lincoln===probably more like one who plays with Lincoln Logs.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 09:34 PM

Yes, indeed... for Terry Schiavo. That one hits close to home: I live near the town where she attended high school. The Schiavo story has been in the local news here for years and years, and I'm well aware of his middle-of-the-night maneuvering. Yup, yup, yup, he loves to play the "right to life" card when it comes to the unborn and those in a permanent vegetative state, but for those anywhere in between (babies starving from post-flood lack of formula, young adults sent off to fight his war, people going off to Canada to get affordable medications), genocide appears to be an option...


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 03:28 AM

i just heard on the news that a ship capable of making 100,000 gallons of fresh water a day was in the Gulf, but apart from its helicopters, it was not used.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:20 AM

Nobody here seems to understand an essential truth. The present President of the United States of America was appointed, BY GOD HIMSELF, to make the rich of America even richer - AND NOTHING MUST STAND IN THE WAY OF THAT SACRED MISSION - certainly not a few uppity poor people down south. After all a much larger number of Iraqis and American soldiers have been sacrificed, so far, in pursuit of THE CAUSE, and that has all been worth it, hasn't it? Well, possibly ... it's just too early to tell ... maybe ... sort of... ?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:30 AM

SharonA wrote: There was no mention of their ethnicity, so this may be off-topic.

It isn't off-topic, because we have concluded that the racial card has been misplayed in this instance, at least in the way the early pundits were trying to play it.

PeterK (Fionn) wrote: SRS, where would be a good place to store your food and water if your home and street was about to be destroyed? How are people supposed to evacuate, when they haven't got cars, can't afford public transport, and in any case there's no public transport to be had at any price?

Okay, Peter, you're excused from preparing an emergency cache of food for your house in case of a weather emergency. You can just assume your house will be completely destroyed and you will be killed so the shopping and storage would be a fool's errand.

For the rest of us, however, who understand that there are more than hurricanes in the world, keeping a stash is one thing to do in case the local infrastructure is compromised but our houses are still standing, or at least enough of a house to use for shelter until we can get out of the area, whether under our own steam or with the assistance of rescue crews. And frankly, even if I were killed in the destruction of my house, if there is a stash here that my neighbors know they can find and use, I'd be glad to have provided it. I live in tornado alley, where neighborhoods and towns are scoured away with alarming regularity. (Our most recent big hit, March 28, 2000.)

It has not been established that these people didn't leave town for the want of a bus fare. It has been established that a lot of people stayed behind because they wanted to guard their property and belongings or just didn't want to deal with the fuss of evacuation, after the chaos of a false alarm the year before. There WAS public transportation to be had, if residents had elected to use it.

Does that answer your question?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 11:35 AM

SRS, your posts have assumed taht the victims failed to make provision. You've got no way of knowing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 12:08 PM

It has not been established that these people didn't leave town for the want of a bus fare. It has been established that a lot of people stayed behind because they wanted to guard their property and belongings or just didn't want to deal with the fuss of evacuation, after the chaos of a false alarm the year before. There WAS public transportation to be had, if residents had elected to use it.

This is simply not true. There were many people who wanted to leave and had no way to do it. And to then be blamed for not leaving, when they are pretty damned angry for being left behind in the first place, is just a bit too much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 12:34 PM

I don't, Peter, but you appear to be trying to defend the position that everyone did make provision and it was all washed away.

On Saturday's Weekend Edition on NPR I heard an interview with a fellow who had evacuated on Friday and housed in a Memphis hotel. He had done everything correctly, right from watching the weather and having enough of an understanding that the flooding was going to be a problem. They need to find that guy and hire him to run the Common Sense In the Face of a Pending Disaster Department.

CarolC, I say that some people didn't leave because it was their choice and you say that they couldn't get out and are angry about it. There is room in that city for both events to have happened to a lot of people, and as we can see now, there are a lot of people who still resist leaving. It is possible to acknowledge the agency of the people who were trapped there without blaming the victims, possible to acknowledge that a lot of people made the wrong decision when told to evacuate. Wrong decisions can extend to those who ran public transit--but I haven't read anything yet about what happened to public transit, so I'm not going to second guess that part of the story.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM

An informative article, but a poorly worded headline.



Perry Orders Refugees Moved Out of Texas
September 05, 2005

AUSTIN, Texas - With Texas shelters reaching their limit of refugees from Hurricane Katrina, state leaders want to fly some of them to other states that have offered to help. Gov. Rick Perry said Sunday that Texas needs other states to help manage the growing crisis. Nearly a quarter million refugees are already in Texas and more are still pouring in. "There are shelters set up in other states that are sitting empty while thousands arrive in Texas by the day, if not the hour," Perry said. "We are doing everything we can to address the needs of evacuees as they arrive, but in order to meet this enormous need, we need help from other states."

Under a plan set up Sunday, aid centers will be established at airports in Houston and Dallas where incoming refugees can be given food, water and medical care before they are flown out. The Texas National Guard will coordinate the air operation and the governor's office said that people should not just show up at an airport expecting to be transported. Perry said that American, Continental and Southwest airlines, all of which are based in Texas, have agreed to lend their help.

Since Thursday, Perry's office has been in contact with several states, including the governors of Utah, Oklahoma, Michigan, Iowa, New York, West Virginia and Pennsylvania about providing shelter for Louisiana evacuees. Perry's office said arrangements also were being made to bring cruise ships to Galveston to help house Louisiana residents. More ships could be stationed in Beaumont and Corpus Christi.

Texas has been taking in refugees since Wednesday. By Saturday, Perry warned the state was nearing its limit. About 100,000 Louisiana residents are staying in hotels and motels across the state and another 139,000 are being temporarily housed in 137 shelters throughout the state from the Houston Astrodome to El Paso.

Perry spokeswoman Kathy Walt said she didn't know how many refugees might ultimately end up in other states. "Gov. Perry has been heartened by the number of governors who have called him," Walt said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:17 PM

This is the part of your post that I take exception to, SRS...

It has not been established that these people didn't leave town for the want of a bus fare.

It has been established that large numbers of people (many of the sources I've read have said the majority of those who remained) are those who were too poor to have any means of leaving. And you are assuming that there were busses operating during the evacuation that would have taken people out of the area. But even if there were, there were still many who would not have been able to afford the bus fare.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:26 PM

A military base on Cape Cod is expecting 2,500 refugees. Ironically, there are no vacancies in homeless shelters anywhere on the Cape for its own residents in need from whatever circumstances. The shelter is not begrudged to refugees of NO, just the irony noted, esp. among those who are in the trenches, daily, trying to help people who have nowhere to live.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:36 PM

Alabama and Georgia have been taking in refugees right from the start. Many of the refugees plan to resettle in these areas, and are receiving all kinds of financial and other support to help them with resettlement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:44 PM

I'm not assuming anything Carol, but you're putting words in people's mouths. Lets wait until something appears about what was going on in New Orleans with the municipal bus folks, shall we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:47 PM

I quoted you directly, SRS. I did not put any words into your mouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:51 PM

But what I do know is that there are many, many people who have said that they wanted to leave, but couldn't. And many who were too sick or weak to evacuate themselves. And many who were too poor to be able to pay for bus fare. NO had quite a large homeless population. They had no access to any transportation that was not provided free of charge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:57 PM

And even the computer models that were generated in recent years projecting what the effect of a hurricane like Katrina would be for the area around New Orleans, projected that there would be about 100,000 to 200,000 people who would not have any access to transportation out of the area. But the disaster plans did not include any provisions for getting these people out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:19 PM

You must remember that the Mayor of New Orleans is also a Black person and he had no plan to get those poor folk out of the City did he?I do not for one minute believe that racism is or was the problem.Classism yes but not racism.The poor have no real voice.But again let us not forget that the approach of throwing money at this kind of problem is not the answer either.Oprah Winfrey tried it and it failed miserably.This is a very complicated problem and will take some very deep objective thinking and dialogue to fix.It is hard for me to see why if all it takes is money to fix things did welfare fail so miserably.People have to want to do better first and welfare is nothing but a trap.We have people of all different nationalities and colors come to this country with almost nothing and work very hard and do very well for themselves.The answer has to be in a hand up not a hand out.Feed a man fish and you will feed him forever.Teach a man to fish and he will feed himself and be a much happier productive person.Dialouge like this is part of the solution but it must be objective and honest and not about throwing stones.Let he who has done everything they can to try to solve problems like this be the first to throw the stones.mississippitom


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:27 PM

Hmm! Just as an aside. . . .

I have discovered—the hard way—that when I make a statement about the actions or behavior of SOME members of a semi-specific group (Christians, conservatives, left-handed people, inhabitants of California, etc.) I have to be very careful to say that "some" people in this category tend to behave in this manner. But not just that:   In an attempt to make my meaning abundantly clear, I often make use of some HTML codes and display the word "some" in boldfaced, underlined, and in CAPS, thus:
SOME.
Otherwise, someone is bound to get on my cas, accusing me of claiming that ALL people in the category in question behave this way.

But even when I do take great pains to make my meaning abundantly clear, there are STILL those who will claim that I said something that I did not.

In our enthusiasm to make our points, let's not let our adrenaline get out of hand, shall we?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:40 PM

I think that had FEMA been left as it was and had it not been absorbed into the Department of Homeland Security, things would have unfolded quite differently than they did, mississippitom. I credit a large chunk of this tragedy to the gutting of civil infrastructure in this country that is being undertaken by the Bush administration (and to some extent some of the previous administrations, but not anywhere near the extent of the Bush administration). I don't think it's necessarily motivated by racial considerations, but the effect is being felt much more severely and disproportionately by the Black people of the area. And that can make it look like it is motivated by racism.

But the reality is that the local governments don't have the resources to conduct these kinds of disaster relief efforts. That's precisely why we have agencies like FEMA. And since it was, by definition, the responsibility of FEMA to manage this emergency, and since they did not do so, they (and the people they answser to) are the primary people who are responsible for how things turned out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:51 PM

By the way, mississippitom, being poor doesn't necessarily mean the person in question is on welfare. There are many, many "working poor" who are working very hard, often at more than one job, who live paycheck to paycheck and don't have any financial cusion at all, and who barely survive on what they do have. These are the people who make it possible for the rest of the country to buy goods cheaply at places like Walmart and McDonalds, and who do the jobs that no one else is willing to do. This country depends on these people, and they don't deserve anyone's contempt. It's quite an insult to these people to suggest that they have not done all they could to better their situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: John Hardly
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 03:05 PM

It is an interesting point, one that I haven't seen often made, that the absorbtion of FEMA into DHS certainly seemed to have a hand in furthering the disaster.

To further federalize programs -- to further centralize programs that apply to specific regions -- is, by witness of this disaster, probably not a wise move.

I just spent quite some time looking over the NO "Comprehensive Emergency Plan" in which it is quite plain that evacuation is absolutely the responsibility of the local government. And given the nature of evacuations, who would want to further federalize a local evacuation plan? What? ...so we don't evacuate until we get federal agents in to direct the evacuation out of real estate with which they don't have the slightest familiarity? ...and we wait for a signal from Washington to tell us?

We seem to have such a federal view of every problem. We seem to think that we can centralize every issue that America faces. Certainly this should show some of the folly in that kind of thinking.

Excellent posts, SRS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 03:11 PM

FEMA was working pretty well before it got absorbed into the DHS, John.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 03:55 PM

Keep in mind, also, that the Mayor of New Orleans was not responsible for the areas outside of the city limits that were similarly abandoned by the federal government.

Here is what the FEMA and Department of Homeland Security people have to say about what they are responsible for. Under the circumstances on the ground at the time, because of the state of emergency that had been declared by the governors of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama, condition number 2 applied at the time in question. And condidion number 4 could have been applied by President Bush at any time, but was not...


"The Homeland Security Act of 2002 established DHS to prevent terrorist attacks within the United States; reduce the vulnerability of the United States to terrorism, natural disasters, and other emergencies. The act also designates DHS as "a focal point regarding natural and manmade crises and emergency planning".

Pursuant to HSPD-5, the Secretary of Homeland Security is responsible for coordinating Federal operations within the United States to prepare for, respond to, and recover from terrorist attacks, major disasters, and other emergencies. HSPD-5 further designates the Secretary of Homeland Security as the "principal Federal official" for domestic incident management.

In this role, the Secretary is also responsible for coordinating Federal resources utilized in response to or recovery from terrorist attacks, major disasters, or other emergencies if and when any of the following four conditions applies:

(2) the resources of State and local authorities are overwhelmed and Federal assistance has been requested;

(4) the Secretary has been directed to assume incident management responsibilities by the President."

http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:12 PM

Rather than spending time subtracting political leanings before fact-checking posts from here at Mudcat, folks might want to go to the direct sources of good information:

The Times-Picayune

The Clarion-Ledger

The Mobile Register

I've saved a desktop icon for each, and go back periodically to read new entries. It's heartbreaking.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:19 PM

...and also this from the Department of Homeland Security:


Emergencies & Disasters

Planning & Prevention

National Response Plan: Prevention, Preparedness, Response & Maintenance

Response

"The National Response Plan provides the policies and processes for coordinating Federal support activities that address the short-term, direct effects of an incident. These activities include immediate actions to preserve life, property, and the environment; meet basic human needs; and maintain the social, economic, and political structure of the affected community"

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/editorial/editorial_0570.xml


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 05:28 PM

An interesting development: Bush and his Mrs. visited Louisiana without including the Governor in their plans. She found out and showed up less than happy. I thought he said he was going to work with national, regional, and local people to get the job done?

They met for close to two hours. I would love to have been a fly on the wall during that meeting. Seems his nose is out of joint because she refused to allow the military to take over control of the National Guard.

No politics at work here.


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